Honda CR-V Maintenance and Repair

inkie · July 2004

It is a possibility especially if the gaskets were dry.
Maybe they are looking into this and will eventually report their conclusions. Good thought!

As an afterthought, they probably were torqued by machines because, no human except a gorrila or machine could have put them on that tight. I know because I did the first change.

cybernut04 · July 2004

Thanks for your reply. In fact, I have had the CR-V up on ramps in my driveway to check the area near and under the oil filter. I used to change the oil & oil filter for every car/truck/van I've owned, but as the vehicles were built lower to the ground and as the oil filter seemed to migrate to the middle back of the engine, I gave up and let others do the work. With the CR-V, we bought a service contract with the dealer and they do everything the maintenance schedule calls for during the first 4 years, including oil changes.

However, in post 1319, you said: "It didn't happen to pre 02 CR-Vs cause the exhaust evidently wasn't routed the same(under the filter)." I may have been wrong to pick up on this one sentence, but it certainly sounds like you're saying that there is a difference between the earlier models and the '03-'04 models that could be contributing to this situation.

I acknowledge that some of these fires may have been the result of carelessness on the part of Honda technicians, if the "Honda defenders" on the forum can concede the possibility that there might be something else going on here that has contributed to the problem.

Two other comments: While I would be upset to lose an engine due to a faulty oil change, it's just an engine and it can be replaced. I don't think we can reasonably compare the loss of an engine to a engine fire that may lead to a loss of life.

And lawyers have been mentioned a couple of times. I have no interest in suing anyone. My ONLY interest in this is for Honda to do whatever they need to do so that I may have confidence in my (gulp!) first oil change (next month, I think) and every oil change after that ... that if the oil change is done improperly, oil will leak, the engine may seize, but it won't burst into flames.

edunnett · July 2004

Inkie - Did I read your post correctly? Honda dealerships use Fram oil filters???!!!! Frams are notoriously poor quality and contain no flow-back valve thus letting the dirt and grime they filtered out to seep back into the pan and your engine. In fact, if you know you have a Fram installed, listen for the flow-back dripping noise when you start your engine. It doesn't happen with other higher quality filters. I'm really surprised Honda would use such a low-quality component! Or did I read your post wrong? Of course, I am not connecting Fram to fires, just surprised that Frams would be used at all.

kizhe · July 2004

On three Honda's "genuine" oil filters, which I bought at Honda dealership, it's said:" Made by FRAM". Other "Honda genuine" filters, which I also used, where made by other brands: HUNYWELL and FILTECH. FRAM filter has ten small elliptical holes, others got 8 round holes. All were marked by Honda's label as I50400-PLM-A02. All got same size (same look) and color: blue.

isellhondas · July 2004

Relax, Fram is a HUGE oil filter company that builds to spec. They are more than capable of making first class filters along with the cheapie filters that are sold strickly for price in the discount stores. If you cut the two apart you'll see a BIG difference.

Also, if you can really hear a dripping noise over the sounds of an engine, you have ears that are a lot better than mine!

You are correct, though, the cheap oil filters can lack the flow back valve.

drive62 · July 2004

One person reported the fire didn't occur until 500 miles after the oil change. Another said not until 1000 miles. If the theory is a failure of the filter, shouldn't that occur pretty quick after it is installed incorrectly? Why the delay in these instances?

Just trying to understand better.

icvci · July 2004

I don't think it's a problem with the filter, I think it's a problem with the way the filter is installed.

I know there are times I connect my garden hose up to water my lawn and, if one of the hoses isn't connected tightly and I move the sprinkler a couple times, water will start to shoot out of the connection. I believe the same is true of the CR-V oil filter. A tech installs the filter, it isn't on well due to a double gasket or a pinched gasket, the filter doesn't seat correctly and it becomes loose from a combination of bumps, vibrations and thermal changes. In some instances, such as the double gasket, the filter may seat completely wrong causing a large loss of oil from the get-go. Other times, it may take time for the filter to work itself loose.

Just a theory.

silver_bullet · July 2004

An astute poster on the other CR-V thread brought up an interesting possibility. Honda, like several other car companies, has opted to move the catalytic converter as close to the exhaust manifold as possible to initiate rapid light-off of the catalyst after a cold start and minimize emissions. In some new cars, the catalytic converter and exhaust manifold are one piece. This puts a very hot exhaust part in the engine compartment and close to the engine block, instead of under the car in the airflow. It seems to me that given an engineering decision such as this, you'd want to locate service items away from this side of the engine, but Honda opted to put the CR-Vs oil filter on the exhaust side of the engine block. Are these oil filters really designed to tolerate this sort of heat? Might the rubber gaskets harden or shrink and allow the filter to loosen or leak? Seems like a possibility to me. Automotive design is full of compromises, but I sure wouldn't have located the oil filter next to the cat, unless there was also extensive heat shielding. Personally, I'm not real keen on having the steering rack located near the catalyst either, but that's just my opinion.

icvci · July 2004

Seems to me the oil filter isn't next to the exhaust, it's over it. Like just about every car I've ever changed oil on.

varmint · July 2004

"Why are CR-Vs - only CR-Vs, and only 2003 and 2004 model years, and only after the first oil change - more susceptible to catching on fire than 1) any other Honda model, 2) any other model year of the CR-V, and 3) any other oil change besides the first?"

The short answer is, nobody knows. But I would also ask these questions.

1. Are you absolutely sure that no Accord, Element, or TSX has had an oil leak that ended up on a hot surface? Until last week, you didn't know that this had happened to CR-Vs. How can you be so sure that it isn't a problem with other cars?

2. Are you absolutely sure that no 2002 CR-V has had an oil leak?

3. Are you absolutely sure that there have been no leaks (or fires) after the 2nd or 3rd oil change.

My point is that many here are basing all this panic on a very small sample of cars. It brings to mind these song lyrics.

We don't like
What we don't understand
In fact it scares us
And this monster is mysterious at the least!

Bring your guns
Bring your knives
Save your children and your wives
We'll save our village and our lives
We'll kill the Beast!

That's from Disney's Beauty and the Beast and the scene where the villagers form a lynch mob.

If you don't understand something you investigate it. The NHTSA has investigated it. They closed the investigation, but they have not issued a conclusion. The investigation can be re-opened if the situation warrants additional action. Now, if the warnings issued by Honda prevent any additional fires, then both Honda and the NHTSA have done their job.

Why not give that a chance? Maybe because you don't like what you don't understand, in fact it scares you...

"I acknowledge that some of these fires may have been the result of carelessness on the part of Honda technicians, if the "Honda defenders" on the forum can concede the possibility that there might be something else going on here that has contributed to the problem."

Sure, I would gladly concede that. In fact, I would encourage that people not form any opinion until we have more information. But, at this time, there is no evidence to suggest that something is fishy about the results of the Honda/NHTSA investigation. Personally, I will not start blaming Honda with no evidence to back it up.

Later, with more information, that could change.

chong · July 2004

Hi, Vamrmint:

Just one question
- Do you think it is enought for honda just by giving out warnings
to elimilate the future fire from happening because of oil change?

I agree we shouldn't blame honda at this point without more facts but
by just giving out warning is really not a good solution.

At the same time, could anyone answer me whether the fire can only
happen after the first oil change?

thanks/chong

chong · July 2004

Hi, Vamrmint:

Just one question
- Do you think it is enought for honda just by giving out warnings
to elimilate the future fire from happening because of oil change?

I agree we shouldn't blame honda at this point without more facts but
by just giving out warning is really not a good solution.

At the same time, could anyone answer me whether the fire can only
happen after the first oil change?

thanks/chong

chong · July 2004

Hi, Vamrmint:

Just one question
- Do you think it is enought for honda just by giving out warnings
to elimilate the future fire from happening because of oil change?

I agree we shouldn't blame honda at this point without more facts but
by just giving out warning is really not a good solution.

At the same time, could anyone answer me whether the fire can only
happen after the first oil change?

thanks/chong

varmint · July 2004

Careful with that refresh key.

"Do you think it is enought for honda just by giving out warnings to elimilate the future fire from happening because of oil change?"

I think it's a good start. The evidence *suggests* that the problem lies with the Techs. So I think that starting with the Tech is a sensible plan.

"At the same time, could anyone answer me whether the fire can only happen after the first oil change?"

No. No one can answer that question with only the information we have so far.

chong · July 2004

Hi, Varmint:

Thanks for the tip regarding refresh.

Chong

cybernut04 · July 2004

1. Are you absolutely sure that no Accord, Element, or TSX has had an oil leak that ended up on a hot surface? Until last week, you didn't know that this had happened to CR-Vs. How can you be so sure that it isn't a problem with other cars?

I learned about the fires on this forum via posts by Sabrina some time ago. No, I'm not sure that this is or is not a problem with other vehicles, and frankly, I don't care. I know it is a problem with the CR-V, and that's the vehicle I'm taking for it's first oil change next month. Knowing that there's a problem with other vehicles, or knowing there isn't a problem with other vehicles, doesn't alter my concern about the CR-V one bit.

2. Are you absolutely sure that no 2002 CR-V has had an oil leak?

No, and again, I don't care. I have an '04.

3. Are you absolutely sure that there have been no leaks (or fires) after the 2nd or 3rd oil change.

No, and again, I don't care. I haven't had any oil changes in my '04 - and it's the first oil change on my '04 that concerns me.

Why not give that a chance? Maybe because you don't like what you don't understand, in fact it scares you...

Absolutely! I would have expected some reasonable explanation from Honda as to why they believe this is solely a technician problem. What I would like to see is a little experiment - line up various models of Hondas, change the oil and oil filter improperly in each case, and see which, if any, catch fire. I don't have any problem understanding an incorrectly-performed oil change ... where I have a problem is this oil change causing a fire.

"I acknowledge that some of these fires may have been the result of carelessness on the part of Honda technicians, if the "Honda defenders" on the forum can concede the possibility that there might be something else going on here that has contributed to the problem."

Sure, I would gladly concede that. In fact, I would encourage that people not form any opinion until we have more information.

Thank you!

But, at this time, there is no evidence to suggest that something is fishy about the results of the Honda/NHTSA investigation. Personally, I will not start blaming Honda with no evidence to back it up.

So far, I haven't seen any evidence to believe Honda.

icvci · July 2004

What I would like to see is a little experiment - line up various models of Hondas, change the oil and oil filter improperly in each case, and see which, if any, catch fire.

If there are 300,000 CR-Vs on the road, and each one has had only 2 oil changes, that's 600,000 oil changes. And you expect a line up of vehicles with one bad oil change to automatically produce the results you're looking for? Good grief!

varmint · July 2004

"No, I'm not sure that this is or is not a problem with other vehicles, and frankly, I don't care." - Cybernut

Then why do you keep bringing it up?

Your posts imply that there is some kind of defect involved because of these anomalies in the data. You shouldn't use that sort of thing to suggest a fault, then turn around and deny that it matters when someone shows that it may not be the truth.

"So far, I haven't seen any evidence to believe Honda."

Yeah, that would be the "guilty until proven innocent" school of thought.

14 out the 22 fires that were investigated were found to have either a stacked gasket or a pinched gasket.

There's your evidence.

smokehammer · July 2004

Hello - I'm a newbie with you all.
Glad to have this site to share some information, since I'm in the middle of the country.
First of all, I've changed oil & filters on my own vehicles for 30 years - some by dealers. The last CRV I had was a 1999 and it was relatively easy to reach the filter and wipe off the face on the block. The "new" 2004 we have is a tight reachmayneed another joint in my forearm <G>
(axle shaft shroud in the way) to do my usual Mobil 1 in the future. Anyone else using the new Mobil 1 "0-20" after 8,000 mi.?
Since I had the first change in March @4900 mi. I really need a change @ 8,200 mi. In the past I've used Mobil 1, but now the concern is that since Mobil 1 0-10 claims it's a
legitimate replacement for "Honda, Mercedes, BMW etc." - wouldnt't this low viscosity under start conditions be even more fluid under cool conditions? The hardest part is reaching the block face to feel for smoothness if I change filters.

Bummér

Smokehammer

theracoon · July 2004

Since I had the first change in March @4900 mi. I really need a change @ 8,200 mi.

Actually, your next oil change should be @ 9,900 miles. The Honda recommended oil change interval for your CR-V is 5,000 miles under "severe" conditions, or 10,000 miles under "normal".

defielding · July 2004

The reason SOME 2003 had this problem apart from mistakes made by the person changing the oil and the fact that the filter is over the cat. con.(like on many vehicles) is that they obviously had a run of filters made for Honda by their filter suplier that had defective glue holding the gasket in place or (less likely- were not given a film of oil on the gasket before initial installation). Since other CRVs did not receive this particular run of filters and other Honda and non-Honda models do not receive this filter model, they don't have the problem. Since this run was made specially for the new Honda installation (and painted blue instead of say Fram's usual orange colour) it would not affect filters installed after the first oil change. I have my doubts that it was caused by overtightening the factory filters because my '99 CRV and many other Hondas have come from the factory with rediculously tight filters but the gasket came off with the filter (whether you had to drive a screwdriver through it or not!)
Smokehammer - you don't need to see the mounting surface, just check the filter you just took off to see if any of the gasket material is missing. After 30 years of changing filters, I have only had this happen once (on an oil filter for my Honda GL1200 Goldwing motorcycle).

jewels1 · July 2004

I am a little confused. The majority of the fires were not caused by the double gasket but by the oil filters at the first oil change being installed incorrectly - to loosely or not lubricated properly. Does this mean the oil filters installed at the time of the 1st oil change were defective? Also 5 of the fires were in the 2004 cr-v models. If you could clear up my confusion I would appreciate it.

defielding · July 2004

Yes jewels, it sounds as if the original filters supplied to the factory on a certain run,(which can be part of a single day's production of filters, since they make thousands of them in a day), were defective in that the rubber seal or gasket was not adhired sufficiently to the filter to come off with the filter when it gets taken off at the time of the first oil change and thus stuck to the mating surface of the engine. At the first filter change, the person changing the oil did not look to see if part of the gasket from the original filter was left on the mating surface (there usually are no pieces of the original filter gasket on there unless the original filter was defective due to the gasket not being glued properly onto the filter). Thus the person changing the filter became complacent after changing so many filters without worry and screwed the replacement oil filter at the first oil change onto the mating surface overtop of some of the first filter's gasket material, thus creating an insecure fit and allowing oil leakage. The oil leaked on the super hot cat. converter, caught fire and spread quickly. If some of the 2004s caught fire, they probably got some of what was left of the defective run of filters. This can also happen if the original filter was installed with no film of oil spread on the gasket where it meets the mating surface of the engine (although it usually won't stay stuck to the surface of the engine unless the adhesive that keeps it stuck to the filter is weak). Sorry everyone for such long posts, just skip them if I'm putting you to sleep.

cybernut04 · July 2004

"No, I'm not sure that this is or is not a problem with other vehicles, and frankly, I don't care." - Cybernut

Then why do you keep bringing it up?

Why do I keep bringing up the fires? Because I'm concerned about them and I don't believe Honda - simple as that.

Your posts imply that there is some kind of defect involved because of these anomalies in the data. You shouldn't use that sort of thing to suggest a fault, then turn around and deny that it matters when someone shows that it may not be the truth.

Sorry - I must have missed something - I hadn't realized that any "truth" had been revealed yet.

"So far, I haven't seen any evidence to believe Honda."

Yeah, that would be the "guilty until proven innocent" school of thought.

That's your interpretation, not mine. I don't fully believe the reason that Honda has put forth. The thought that Honda technicians may be contributing to the problem, I have no problem accepting. But I think there's more, and you know, Honda thinks so, too. In the story that appeared in the Washington Post, it said: "Honda, whose products are consistently rated among the safest vehicles, doesn't know why the fires are happening in only the two most recent CR-V models, spokesman Andy Boyd said." And the article said that Honda is continuing to investigate. If that's being "guilty until proven innocent", so be it.

14 out the 22 fires that were investigated were found to have either a stacked gasket or a pinched gasket. There's your evidence.

That's evidence that of 22 CR-Vs that burned, 14 had one of two problems with the gasket. So? That just leads to more questions. Have those filter problems been identified as the sole cause of those 14 fires? What were the filters like on the other 8 fires? Is there anything that all the fires had in common? (and by that I mean, other than being '03 and '04 CR-Vs after their first (or second?) oil change)

I understand that some people on this forum have a vested interest in believing Honda's explanation - they may sell Hondas or be CR-V enthusiasts or whatever. My only concern, my only concern, is that I can be reasonably confident that our CR-V will be no more likely that any other vehicle out there to catch fire after its first oil change. I don't think that it's outrageous to expect a new vehicle from a manufacturer noted for their quality to not catch fire after an oil change.

cybernut04 · July 2004

"What I would like to see is a little experiment - line up various models of Hondas, change the oil and oil filter improperly in each case, and see which, if any, catch fire."

If there are 300,000 CR-Vs on the road, and each one has had only 2 oil changes, that's 600,000 oil changes. And you expect a line up of vehicles with one bad oil change to automatically produce the results you're looking for? Good grief!

I have another suggestion. The article about the Honda CR-V fires in the Washington Post included this: "Honda concluded it was a technician's error, and they have taken steps to make sure service technicians who work on this vehicle understand that they need to be particularly diligent when they replace the oil filter," NHTSA spokesman Rae Tyson said.

My CR-V is due its first oil change next month. Anyone want to trade CR-Vs for a while? Only catch - you have to take it to a Jiffy Lube for the oil change ... and that's one of the ways Honda messed up with this - they say it's technician error, and they will make sure their technicians are more careful ... but how many CR-V owners go someplace other than their Honda dealer for oil changes?

jewels1 · July 2004

Thank you Defielding,

Your post does clear up a few things for me. I don't mind long messages - I like a lot of detail.

Just for any ones information there has been a class action lawsuit filed concerning this matter. I about read it of the Honda CR-V forum.

keng · July 2004

Has anyone used Honda-Parts-Dealer.com for parts? If yes, any favorable (or not) comments? thanks..

varmint · July 2004

"Why do I keep bringing up the fires? Because I'm concerned about them and I don't believe Honda - simple as that.

No. That's not what I was asking. Why do you keep bringing up the other vehicles (Accord, Element, TSX..) other model years (2002) when you have no clue as to whether or not they prove anything?

Let me sum it up for you.

Varmint: Are you sure this hasn't happened with 2002 or other models?

Cybernut: No. And I don't care.

Varmint: Then why do you keep bringing them up?

"Sorry - I must have missed something - I hadn't realized that any "truth" had been revealed yet."

True. Which makes your accusations even more frustrating. As Racoon described it, you're adding oil to the fire when you have no clue. You've got nothing but inflammatory statements and nothing to support your claims.

Except for the fact that you are scared, you have no reason to suspect that Honda is hiding anything. All I'm asking is that you take a more critical approach to the issue before you start throwing around conspiracy theories.

chong · July 2004

Hi,

I have just bought a 2004 CRV LX and not sure
wheather I should have the rear window tinted.

Could anyone tell me what is the difference between EX privacy rear window and tinted window?

Thanks
chong

varmint · July 2004

Chong - Generally, a factory tint is applied to the glass via a process that actually makes the glass darker. It is not a film that is applied over the glass, like an aftermarket job. Therefore, the factory job is more durable.

However, with aftermarket tint, you can control how dark or light the end result will appear.

icvci · July 2004

32,000 miles Eternal flame Blue EX.

Changed the oil this weekend.

No fire.

That's 3 changes, no fire.

chong · July 2004

Hi, Vamint:

Thanks for the quick reply.

One more question -
Besides the durability, any other problems with tinted window?
A local shop quotes $195 and life time warranty as long
as I owned my vechile.

(To be frank, I am still not sure how useful the tinted window will
be.)

thanks again
chong

justin · July 2004

the fires are bad, but what is worse is Honda's inability to assure its customers that they are safe. the first thing they did was blame technicians. worst response they could have ever given in my opinion. technicians change the oil on EVERY kind of car. only Honda CR-V's are expected by the general population here in DC to catch fire on a regular basis when performing oil changes.

they really need to decide where they want to be in 5 or 1o years. on top as usual, or relegated to a joke that only offers poor resale value and tragic stories to its customers. recall after recall on transmissions, fires, brake issues. whats next?

they either need to get their act together with some major complimentary warranty extensions and MUCH improved component quality, or they will end up having to give cars away. might be good for them. Honda and Toyota have both forgotten who they work for - the car buyer.

robb · July 2004

JUST A COUPLE OF THINGS TO ADD TO YOUR COMMENT
1. ALL HONDA (EXCEPT, THE INSIGHT, CIVIC HYBRID, AND S2000) TAKE THE SAME OIL FILTER.
2. HONDA FILTERS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN BLUE
AND
3. HONDA OEM FILTERS DO NOT HAVE GLUE ON THE OIL FILTER GASKET..

robb · July 2004

TRUE,TECHS (DEPENDS WHERE YOU GO) DO CHANGE OIL IN EVERY TYPE OF CAR.
BUT THE QUESTIONS IS, WHERE DID THESE CR-V OWNERS HAVE THEIR OIL CHANGED. WAS IT DONE BY HONDA FACTORY TRAINED TECHS, OR WAS IT DONE
BY JIFFY LUBE WANNABEES. I'D LIKE TO SEE HOW MANY OF THESE CR-V
HAD OEM FILTERS AT THE TIME OF THE FIRE AND HOW MANY HAD AFTERMARKET
FILTERS.

isellhondas · July 2004

They blamed the people changing the oil because that's where the fault lies! They don't catch fire on a "regular basis" either!

Little too much drama in your post.

cybernut04 · July 2004

They blamed the people changing the oil because that's where the fault lies!

That's what Honda says ... but they also say the investigation continues. If you have proof that the fires are the result of the work of technicians and only the work of technicians, please share that proof with us.

The story in the Washington Post included: "Honda, whose products are consistently rated among the safest vehicles, doesn't know why the fires are happening in only the two most recent CR-V models, spokesman Andy Boyd said. "That's the part we're still investigating. Honestly, that's something we're still trying to understand," he said, adding that there have been no major design changes.

"While Boyd said the problem is "absolutely not a design defect," he said the CR-V's engine is configured "such that there is a higher likelihood of oil spraying onto the manifold than . . . on other vehicles." Honda has no plan to recall the vehicles and install a barrier to block the oil from hitting the hot exhaust manifold, he said."

Nice of them to say "absolutely not a design defect" while in the same breath they imply there's a "configuration" problem (i.e., defect).

Little too much drama in your post.

Little too much defense and bias in your post.

justin · July 2004

i totally understand your bias. i would be defending the company that signs my paychecks as well. but, it isn't the fault of a person changing the oil.

sure, they should be more diligent in doing their jobs. but, they all do the same crappy work on other cars too. at the end of the day, ONLY the CRV's catch fire. how can that be explained? again, a tech can do crappy work all day on Accords and Civics (if they work at a Honda place) or on Chevy's and Mercedes (if they work at Jiffy Lube). but, ONLY THE CRV ignites. how Honda can say that their isn't a design flaw or a product quality issue is beyond me.....

they need to step up and say "we screwed up when we designed the car and the product assembly that we outsourced is below our normal high standards. we will replace all affected vehicles with a safer version or refund money."

that type of public statement would put them right back on top. might cost a bit of money - effect them for one quarter, but in the end, the brand would come back stronger because consumers would know that they stand behind and have confidence in their products.

htt · July 2004

My '97 CRV is squeaking when I turn the steering wheel all the way to the left. The noise comes from under the frame near the left wheel. Do you know what is causing this problem? Is it easy to fix? Thanks.

icvci · July 2004

The CR-V is NOT the only one that ignites. Or do you have numbers that support that claim?

andrelaplume · July 2004

The CR-V is NOT the only one that ignites. Or do you have numbers that support that claim?

True or not it's the only one I have heard about in years. Its the only one one I've seen on the news or tv either.

Its the only one where I have heard the corp blame the techs.

Its the only one I have heard the techs blaming the corp.

Right or wrong Honda has a perception problem. IsellHondas is right. Address the issue before this starts to get really out of hand and starts to costs millions instead of 10s of thousands.

I still cite the Toyota sludge issue which many naysayers had no impact on Toyota at all. I can not say because the extact impact as I was new to the brand when I opted to wait for the redesigned 02 Camry instead of a leftover 01...with a potential sludge issue. All I can say is Toyota has had rebates on the Camry ranging from $750 - $1250 almost from the beginning. (If only I had waited 6 months!) Now maybe Toyota aways used rebates. I do notice Honda never does...or at least not yet.

justin · July 2004

...if only the CR-V catches fire. other Hondas might catch fire for sure. but other Hondas aren't on the news for potentially killing people. only the CR-V is.

varmint · July 2004

"Besides the durability, any other problems with tinted window?
A local shop quotes $195 and life time warranty as long as I owned my vechile." - Chong

Nah. Window tinting has come a long way. It doesn't turn purple like you might see on older cars. And the warranty should cover installation defects like bubbles or wrinkles.

"That's what Honda says ... but they also say the investigation continues."

See, that works both ways. Why are you calling for action when all the facts have not been determined? Going off half-cocked isn't going to help anyone.

"If you have proof that the fires are the result of the work of technicians and only the work of technicians, please share that proof with us."

There is no proof of anything at this time. We have a fairly modest number of facts, but not enough to paint a clear picture. That said, Technician error is the only explanation with any support in the facts we have thus far.

justin · July 2004

at this point:

its safe to say "technician error" if you add "due to non-industry standard vehicle design and poor filter quality."

icvci · July 2004

Based upon?????????????????????????

cybernut04 · July 2004

No. That's not what I was asking. Why do you keep bringing up the other vehicles (Accord, Element, TSX..) other model years (2002) when you have no clue as to whether or not they prove anything?

Sorry - I wasn't clear - I went back and re-read my messages, and I wasn't clear at all. You're right - I don't know if there have been any other models in any model year in the Honda line that have ever caught on fire. I have had other Hondas - I pay attention to the news - if there had been stories in the papers and on TV for those other models like there were for the CR-V, it's certainly possible I could have missed those stories.

The "I don't care" statement comes simply from the fact that I don't drive any other Hondas at the moment, just the CR-V. So if the '85 Civics or the 98 Accords or whatever model had a problem with catching fire, I don't remember hearing about it and I don't care in that I don't own or drive those other models. I care about fires in other Hondas only in relation to the fires we know have happened to '03 and '04 CR-Vs. The investigation centered on only '03 and '04 CR-Vs, and it's logical to ask if any other Hondas have caught fire like this, and even logical to assume - based on lack of any coverage in the media - that no other Honda model/year has had the problem CR-Vs are having.

True. Which makes your accusations even more frustrating. As Racoon described it, you're adding oil to the fire when you have no clue. You've got nothing but inflammatory statements and nothing to support your claims.

And is there any information out there to contradict my claims? When this first came up (posting #1326) I said: "Why are CR-Vs - only CR-Vs, and only 2003 and 2004 model years, and only after the first oil change - more susceptible to catching on fire than 1) any other Honda model, 2) any other model year of the CR-V, and 3) any other oil change besides the first?"

If it would make you feel better, insert "apparently" in there ... "apparently more susceptible to catching on fire ..."

Does anyone have an answer? If there are other models of Hondas that are more susceptible to catching on fire than the CR-V, I'd really like to know about them! Wouldn't you?

Except for the fact that you are scared, you have no reason to suspect that Honda is hiding anything. All I'm asking is that you take a more critical approach to the issue before you start throwing around conspiracy theories.

And I'm asking you to take a more critical approach and not assume that it's just the technicians. There have been several people on this forum who, from the beginning, made it abundently clear that they knew the answer, and it was the fault of the technicians, period. Those individuals have stoutly defended Honda, and/or ignored other possible explanations, and/or belittled the concerns of people who are, quite frankly, scared of burning to death.

I don't think it's right for people who are expressing legitimate concerns (and yes, fears) to be greeted by "LOL", "whiners", "sky is falling", "WITCH HUNT", and several really insulting and/or insensitive statements: "...if your car goes up in flames, you get a new car anyway. LOL"; "yeah thats it. This is some big organized conspiracy among honda techs to get careless with just a 03-04 models."; "Clueless? Because I'm not hysterical over 35 botched oil changes? LOL"; and my personal favorite, sent in response to "Good luck to you who have not yet caught fire" -- "I don't need luck, I've got brains."

icvci · July 2004

Good luck to you who have not yet caught fire" -- "I don't need luck, I've got brains."

I explained this already. It merely implies I'll do my own oil changes and know I won't have a problem. I don't support Honda, I support the idea that these fires have resulted from poor service.

Lets review the summary on NHTSA.GOV -

THIS INVESTIGATION IDENTIFIED 32 INCIDENTS OF OIL FILTER LEAKAGE IN THE SUBJECT VEHICLE POPULATION, WITH 22 RESULTING IN VEHICLE FIRES. ALL OF THE INCIDENTS OCCURRED FOLLOWING OIL CHANGES.

32 leaks. 22 fires. All after an oil change.

HONDA'S INVESTIGATION OF 14 OF THE FIRE INCIDENTS DETERMINED THAT "FIVE OIL FILTERS HAD STACKED SEALS (DOUBLE-GASKETING), AND NINE OIL FILTERS HAD DISTORTED OR PINCHED SEALS." ACCORDING TO HONDA, BOTH CONDITIONS RESULT FROM FAILURE TO FOLLOW NECESSARY REPAIR PROCEDURES. STACKED SEALS RESULT FROM FAILURE OF THE SERVICE TECHNICIAN TO REMOVE THE OLD SEAL PRIOR TO INSTALLING THE NEW FILTER AND SEAL. DISTORTED OR PINCHED SEALS RESULT FROM FAILURE TO PROPERLY LUBRICATE THE NEW SEAL PRIOR TO INSTALLATION. OIL LEAKAGE FROM A STACKED, DISTORTED, OR PINCHED SEAL

Honda, as a company, investigated 14 of the 22 fires and found technician error in EVERY SINGLE INCIDENT.

The cause of the 10 oil leaks that did not result in fire were not reported. But, it would be pretty easy to figure that when 14 out of 14 investigated fires pointed directly to improper installation of the filter, that 10 out of 10 of those failures without fire, were also from tech error.

How much clearer can it be?

kathgip · July 2004

Hi, I just bought a 2004 CR-V EX Auto loaded and I love it. The only thing that I do not like is the loud road noise when the vehicle is going above 40 mph. Does anyone know what can be done about it? I heard (from my dealer) that undercoating will cut down substantially on road noise, but I don't know it that is just a sales pitch. He wanted $300 for the undercoating. Does undercoating help? Any suggestions or advice would be much appreciated. Thanks

justin · July 2004

what else do you need? the SAME service is performed on all cars. why should a CRV catch on fire and an Accord NOT catch on fire? why should a CRV catch fire and a Taurus NOT catch fire?

what is the answer to that question? the answer is that the CRV needs a (trying to find the most positive choice of words here....) "different" servicing that EVERY OTHER CAR on the road.

that is the fault of HONDA. technically, the technician might have performed an oil change wrong, but there is a specific problem with the design of the car and the quality of the part specific to the CRV, or else all other oil changes on all other cars would result in dangerous fires. the majority of the car-driving public understands that real basic conclusion. that is why Honda is in a bind.

robb · July 2004

yes, its true this engine design has the possibility of spraying oil
on to the cat converter, if the person servicing the vehicle fails
to install the filter correctly, if the filter is done right there
should be no spraying of oil>

Honda CR-V Maintenance and Repair

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