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Comments
If there is a problem it could be that the first oil filter is being torqued too much and there isn't enough lubrication on the gasket. But, that's only speculation and it still doesn't explain why techs aren't checking the area for old gasket and then for leaks.
The techs are failing TWICE! Once by not cleaning the surface and TWICE by not checking for leaks.
Yeah, blame Honda. You are a lawyers best friend.
The first time I can hear a reasonable explanation which makes sense to me! If so ... that's Honda's fault again - why only CR-V' filters get stuck? Why are they so tight?
My first oil change was done at Honda dealership.
So, I missed a wonderful experience of " driving a screwdriver through the filter to get it off."
But at 1st o/c they fail to change oil plug (crash) washer. I know that because at the 2nd oil change I found the factory (black) washer stuck to the pan and had trouble to take it off ( I used chisel and hummer).
At 2nd oil change I also noticed that whole surface of oil filter was very oily - it was covered by while emulsion. So, I was close ... .
During the following four oil changes filters were always dry to touch - sometimes I was able to unscrew them simply by hand.
Here's hoping we all enjoy our CR-Vs free of fire for many years to come.
Comon people, if you took your car in for injector service and the tech didn't tighten the clamp on the rail and your car blew up, would you blame Honda too?
It's very basic stuff. Rules aren't being followed. Even if a mistake is made and the gasket isn't removed, these people haven't checked for leaks.
BTW, I only change the pan nut washer about every 3 oil changes.
In post 1276 you speculate that the oil filter was on too tight from the factory. So this only happens to CR-Vs? What about all the other vehicles made at those two assembly plants?
Like someone else said. If the fires are solely attributed to human error why isn't it occuring on other vehicles? Do you not agree that the CR-V must have a different design than the other vehicles which allows the fires to happen? Seems pretty clear to me.
And no I'm not a lawyer's best friend but I'm also not blindly loyal to any entity. Especially a corporation whose sole responsibility is to make a profit for it's shareholders.
If you can, answer the question that was asked. Why are fires not occuring on other Honda vehicles?
Would you blame Tyson for getting sick after eating undercooked chicken?
And this one was for Ferrari! (Scroll down to 2nd and 3rd articles.)
http://www.interfire.org/features/recallview.asp?date=01212002
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/recall24_20040224.htm
If incompetent techs caused the fires in the CR-Vs, why aren't there fires in other Hondas? Others have shown that the CR-V has a design which allows spilled oil to drip on a hot part of the vehicle resulting in combustion and a fire. The Accord has a different design which won't allow this to happen.
Honda designed a vehicle where a fairly minor problem causes a major issue. That is not good Engineering. IMHO.
When the vehicle is recalled to install a shield of some sort, will you still say it's human error? I'll check back.
Since when is dumping all of your engine oil a "minor problem"????? COMON!
They were able to design other vehicles that don't burst in to flames when there is human error, they should have done that for the CR-V.
Pretty heartless aren't I?
Follow directions.
BTW Since when is dumping all of your oil and seizing the engine a "minor problem"? As far as I'm concerned, that would be one of the biggest problems.
NHTSA Action Number: PE04018
Summary:
THIS INVESTIGATION IDENTIFIED 32 INCIDENTS OF OIL FILTER LEAKAGE IN THE SUBJECT VEHICLE POPULATION, WITH 22 RESULTING IN VEHICLE FIRES. ALL OF THE INCIDENTS OCCURRED FOLLOWING OIL CHANGES. HONDA'S INVESTIGATION OF 14 OF THE FIRE INCIDENTS DETERMINED THAT "FIVE OIL FILTERS HAD STACKED SEALS (DOUBLE-GASKETING), AND NINE OIL FILTERS HAD DISTORTED OR PINCHED SEALS." ACCORDING TO HONDA, BOTH CONDITIONS RESULT FROM FAILURE TO FOLLOW NECESSARY REPAIR PROCEDURES. STACKED SEALS RESULT FROM FAILURE OF THE SERVICE TECHNICIAN TO REMOVE THE OLD SEAL PRIOR TO INSTALLING THE NEW FILTER AND SEAL. DISTORTED OR PINCHED SEALS RESULT FROM FAILURE TO PROPERLY LUBRICATE THE NEW SEAL PRIOR TO INSTALLATION. OIL LEAKAGE FROM A STACKED, DISTORTED, OR PINCHED SEAL CAN BE IGNITED BY HEAT FROM THE EXHAUST SYSTEM, WHICH IS LOCATED NEAR THE OIL FILTER IN THE SUBJECT VEHICLES. HONDA WILL ISSUE COMMUNICATIONS TO ITS DEALERS WARNING OF THE NECESSITY TO FOLLOW CORRECT PROCEDURES WHEN REPLACING OIL FILTERS IN THE SUBJECT VEHICLES AND OF THE POTENTIAL FOR VEHICLE FIRES TO RESULT FROM IMPROPER REPAIRS. ODI WILL CONTINUE TO MONITOR THE ALLEGED DEFECT IN MY 2003 AND LATER CR-V VEHICLES. THIS INVESTIGATION IS CLOSED. THE CLOSING OF THIS INVESTIGATION DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A FINDING BY NHTSA THAT NO SAFETY-RELATED DEFECT EXISTS. THE AGENCY WILL TAKE FURTHER ACTION IF WARRANTED BY THE CIRCUMSTANCES.
I think the vast majority of people changing oil don't need to be told anything in the first place.
The design of the CR-V apparently allows a fire to occur when there is human error associated with the oil filter replacement. Doesn't seem to happen on other Honda vehicles.
Are you sure about that? I mean, a few days ago most people didn't know that this was a problem for the CR-V. What makes you so sure this isn't happening with the Accord, Element, or TSX?
I've read plenty of stories about fires errupting after oil changing facilities have failed to screw the filler cap back on. Would you blame a manufacturer for not providing a self-closing oil cap?
We got one side who demands accountability from the corporation that has put lives in jeopardy. We got the other side who defends the corporation and takes their word at face value.
I've been asking for the millionth time "Why is this problem occuring at a higher rate in 2003/2004 Honda CR-Vs than other Hondas and other cars on the road?" And the defenders of Honda choose to ignore this fact and continue to put the blame SOLELY on the oil change technicians. I believe INDEED technicians are partly to blame (33%) and Honda CR-V's design is also to blame (67%) for the problems.
How did I come to this conclusion? If the oil technicians are good in their jobs...and not one drop of oil drips...the car would likely not catch on fire (although as the car gets old, oil leaks for a variety of reasons). But if the oil technicians screw up, the car is virtually guaranteed to catch on fire (Honda's fault).
Folks, do you want to put your lives in the hands of an underpaid oil change man? Just because he screws up a little, doesn't mean the car should blow up. It's as simple as that...and Honda must RECALL this vehicle.
Little too much drama here, dont you think?
I think most of these oil leaks would be detected long before a fire would erupt. A lot of these double or pinched gaskets would blow immediatly after the car was started up.
And, I have to think that a lot of drivers would know something was wrong way before a fire started.
A strong burning oil smell should alert most people something isn't right I would think.
And, in the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of oil changes, the procedure would be done correctly in the first place!
I had 15 seconds from actually seeing the flames.
Tick...tick...Watch your clock and see how much you can accomplish at that time. Most of the "victim" I correspond with had about that much time. There was absolutely no warning.
I will take the CR-V to a Honda dealer for every oil change with the hope that they do a good job due to the high liability if they screw up. If my car does burn up, and I'm still alive, then I have two deep pockets to sue (Honda dealer and Honda).
Once the car is paid off (2.5 years) and the car has avoided become ashes, I will trade in the car and let someone else deal with the timebomb (hopefully the resale value won't become savaged by this issue). Hopefully, before that time Honda will get to their senses and recall the car. If they don't, then they don't.
I myself will never buy another Honda and will dissuade people at every instance I have. Instead of attracting the loyalty of a 22 year old person (me) who would buy another 10 cars over the next 50 years, Honda has done a fine job ensuring I never buy another one of their vehicles again.
Sabrina, I'm really surprised you didn't smell hot oil before that fire erupted.
So you won't buy Ford either because of the Explorer problem? How about Toyota and the sludge problem? or Hyundai and the wheel assemblies that fall off (brakes, rim, and tire)?
Walking is good for you.
JM2C
The fact is that I own a 2004 Honda CR-V, so this problem affects me directly. If in the next few months Honda recalls my vehicle and fixes the problem with dignity, then I might consider changing my mind. But if Honda continues to fiddle while their cars burn, then it's over.
Your point is heard by some and ignored by others. The same question has been asked again and again, but I haven't seen any reasonable explanation.
And if she had, so what? The fire would have happened anyway.
Good point. Maybe there are other Hondas that have caught fire after an oil change. This is my third Honda, and the other two were wonderful (the '80 Civic wagon is long gone, but my son still has the '94 Civic hatchback). But maybe there are others, and this flurry of news will bring forward more information that will help pinpoint the true cause of these fires.
I just want Honda to fix this. I want to be able to take my CR-V to the dealer or the corner gas station or wherever, and have the same level of confidence I have had in the past that the vehicle won't burst into flames. I don't think that is an unreasonable request.
The true cause of the fires is hot oil on a hot cat. It didn't happen to pre 02 CR-Vs cause the exhaust evidently wasn't routed the same(under the filter). Perhaps it didn't happen on the 02 models because the torque specs outta the factory were less or, the filter was different or the mechanics didn't screw up that year or... who knows. Maybe they did but they weren't reported.
The problem was with the FIRST oil change, why are you worried?
I get that oil hitting hot metal caused the fire. What causes the oil to come in contact with the hot metal, on 2003 and 2004 CR-Vs, at their first oil change? You say "the exhaust evidently wasn't routed the same..." -- ya know, that sounds like a change in design to me, maybe a change that affects just a minor number of vehicles, but when they are affected to the point of bursting in flame, I suggest it wasn't a good design change, and that Honda should fix it.
icvci: The problem was with the FIRST oil change, why are you worried?
Having had a reply of mine (oddly enough, to an earlier post of yours) deleted by a moderator because of a suggestion I made in the post, and REALLY fighting the impulse to say the exact same thing in this reply, I will instead say, I'm about 1,000 miles shy of my first oil change ... so yeah, I'm worried. I'm even more worried in reading the legitimate concerns of others, and the way those concerns are tossed aside with scorn by some on this forum.
Really moderator, I'm trying to be good.
Maybe it's time for you to get under your vehicle and look. The oil filter is located above and slightly to the right of the catalytic converter. If the oil filter is installed COMPLETELY wrong, the oil will GUSH, not drip, not ooze, not drizzle on to the hot cat and cause a fire.
BTW, if I recall correctly, Honda doesn't recommend changing the oil filter with every oil change. They say you can change the oil and not the filter about every other time which will be every 10,000 or 20,000 miles depending on which schedule you're on.
And your efforts are greatly appreciated. :-)
It is completely understandable to be concerned about this issue, however, it is also understandable that not everyone will view it the same way. Hopefully, Honda will soon provide more info and insight to the situation.
The best solution is simply redesigning the filter mount so the problem doesn't happen.
Maybe they can install electronic sensors that will illuminate a warning lamp if the filter is not installed properly.
For some reason, others can say things like this, but if I respond the way I want to, my post will be deleted. So instead....
You seem to know quite a bit about this, so maybe you can answer the question that has been asked often over the last few days. I'll phrase it a little differently and see if it helps.
Why are CR-Vs - only CR-Vs, and only 2003 and 2004 model years, and only after the first oil change - more susceptible to catching on fire than 1) any other Honda model, 2) any other model year of the CR-V, and 3) any other oil change besides the first?
I thought you were on the right track when you said that the design had changed between the 2002 and 2003 model year. And to me, it is far more logical and more likely that a design change has caused a problem rather than the inability of Honda technicians to properly change the oil and oil filter.
I NEVER suggested a difference between 02 and 03-04. They are the same car. I personally think it was luck of the draw. Afterall, only 35 out of 200,000-300,000 had the problem and even then, only 22 had fires. So, realistically, there could have been 13 CR-Vs in 02 that lost all of their oil but didn't catch fire.
I attribute it to blind luck.
Aside of technical or rhetorical issues I am thinking here of such a thing as "peace of mind".
Say, let ME be a person who doesn't not know much about cars in general and CR-V's in particular.
Here comes time to buy a new car for my wife or my daughter. Having all this bad press(and eye balling THAT picture of burning CR-V) and knowing that Honda didn't take real actions, would I buy this car?
Small problem created by poor service. You should probably be more concerned with the possibility of blowing up your car at the gas pump. http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5413 Oh the humanity, how can they allow this to happen. Especially with such a frequent action???
If you are buying a lottery ticket you HOPE to win, if you are buying an airline ticket again you hope not to get in a crash.
But odds of both events are approx. the same.
It's all about your "peace of mind" :-)
Also, there originally appeared to be a correlation between fires and the build origin of the CR-V. All the fires I heard about came from the England plant, not Japan. Has this initial correlation continued to be true? If this correlation holds, it could be some kind of adjustment problem at the Swindon plant, over (or under, or whatever) tightening the factory filter, causing the ring to stick at the first oil change.
It's really not difficult.
But! There is always a but, If the problems occurred only with the first oil change you have Toyo Roke filters on the cars built in Japan and I assume Swindon also used Toyo Roke which were the old proven oil filters. In my opinion, how can we blame the new Fram Filters if every one is using them after the first change? These are the filters all the Honda cars are using except for the S2000 which still uses a Toyo Roke. So the accusations will continue.
If the filters are torqued automatically by machine, perhaps the machine in England wasn't modified for a slightly different diameter? Hence, tighter filter, sticking gasket.