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How many are being made?
exactly
Yeah, great comparison between the 350Z and the Cobra. Face it...the cobra R and the cobra are two different beasts. And I will give you that american cars give you a lot for the money. They are quite possibly the best "bang for the buck" on the planet. But to quote badtoy, buying a car based on its numbers is like choosing a girlfriend based on her bra size. Theres more to a car than just its numbers.
I am stating that the Cobra is only mediocre handling by todays standards for sports cars. The GT is WAY below average by todays standards. We have yet to determine how the Z car handles, but I can almost guarantee you right now that the Z will handle better. It also is more attractive(to me and a lot of other people), with better build quality, more comfortable and attractive interior, and with less weight.
I think Nissan does not consider the Cobra a threat to their sales. Any japanese or german sports car is going to be the same way. If you like big horsepower and straight lines, you go for the mustang. If you want a real sports car, you go for something else. Nissan should have no intentions to steal cobra sales, and it should not expect to have sales stolen by the Cobra.
Comments?
Why are people comparing the estimated 30k 350 to cars costing under 24k???
Try to keep apples-to-apples people!
Just because it doesn't appeal to you is no reason to trash the car. It is a fairly capable car for the money.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/RoadAndTrack/features/1201_nissan_350z_p2.html
I think you may find the third paragraph from the bottom of the page interesting, as an s2000 owner. It describes the goals of the handling characteristics for the Z. I'm a little surprised by the direction, although I guess I shouldn't be as the target consumer is likely older than I am.
That said, the article was interesting although it didn't surprise me. I always heard that the Z was a touring vehicle, not too quick and rather heavy. I hope so because that's the car I want. It's the reason I got two Preludes in a row, and it's nice to see a nice step "up" on the horizon.
I hope the actual car is going to be a better execution of a clear strategy than the inconsistent attempts to articulate it.
BTW, although I only have 900 miles on the odometer, I don't think the S2000's handling is one in which more "maturity" is needed. It is as precise and balanced a car as I've driven. The fact that it responds to inputs immediately and goes exactly in the direction it's pointed is, IMHO, a GOOD thing. And, at 44, I suspect I'm on the "mature" side of any demographic target market either Honda or Nissan has in mind. Perhaps the 350Z, by virtue of a lower revving V6, will be a little easier on the eardrums as an everyday car. For me, the S2000 makes a perfect compliment to my Maxima SE. (And my hearing is half shot anyway).
P.S. Hopefully Yukawa or his colleagues won't be quoted as claiming the new G35 or 2003 Maxima target is "more mature" handling than a 3 or 5-series. Just what we need, another Buick.
I'd probably be happy with a miata if I could fit and felt safe in one. Now that the dealer markups on S2K's seem to have died (for the most part) I may consider one, although I'd feel obligated to sign up for track time if I bought one.
btw, from what I've heard about 3rd Gen. RX-7s and Supras they're way too much car for me... right now anyway
Comments?
If the "Z"'s target is the Prelude, heaven help us all. I am a Honda fan, but the Prelude was not a sports car. Period. As for the BMW comparison, I again ask what Nissan is attempting to accomplish. No one makes a better handling sedan than BMW. Last time I checked, the Z was supposed to be a 2-seater sports car giving the Boxter S and other comparables a run for it's money.
I just don't think the Z can be all things to all people. It either needs to make performance the priority and add as much everyday comfort to it as possible, or vice-versa. But they will come in conflict with each other at times and knowing which is the priority is important, IMHO.
Well... from what I've read, Nissan needs to squeeze out more hp and torque from the engine to match the expected competitions. It seems to fall short in acceleration as compared to an M3 or a Corvette. If Nissan can make the Z performs and pampers as well as those two cars and at the expected price, then I'll seriously consider it. OK... don't increase the power too much at the expense of fuel economy... in this day and age, you can do both.....
Last Gen RX-7 with the factory performace packages are basically track cars. I'd never be able to drive the car anywhere near its potential, even on a track, not without attending a performance driving school.
Bottom line: the Z's extra refinement is not enough to convince me to spend over $30K on it over the Mustang. (That means my business would probably go to another segment of the market, rather than buy a Mustang) If anyone else thinks like me, the new Z doesn't stand a chance. People won't be willing to make the "sacrifice".
If big American V-8's are the greatest thing that ever happened to performance cars, I wonder why we don't see more of their defining characteristics in top-end racecars, such as Formula 1 racers. Low-revving, normally aspirated, "throaty roar"... those are concepts that are completely foreign to Indy cars. I wonder why.
The fact that US manufacturers have chosen to stick more cylinders and raw horsepower in their sub $30k cars rather than compete with the Europeans and Japanese on the basis of quality and refinement is about their only choice for selling anything to anybody. Trust me, the other side is not envious of this.
You want instant down and dirty gratification. Get a Ford or Dodge. But before you talk about value, watch how quickly your investment depreciates. There are any number of $40-50k+ cars that are considerably better long term values than your sub $30k Mustang. I sold a 911 in 1995 for nearly what I paid for it in 1985. The S2000 residual in 5 years is higher than any Ford product at 3 (check out cars.com).
As a previous poster suggested, you might want to consider changing your "dream car" from a 360 Modena. The NSX and S2000 that you apparantly dislike have infinitely more in common with a Ferrari than does anything EVER put out by Ford, Dodge or GM. As of right now, your reality and dream suggest severe schizophrenia. I think "Bigfoot Truck" would be just what the doctor ordered.
P.S. For the record, this is not meant to critical of the Musclecar mentality of the "don't mix" sides. If you know what turns YOU on, go for it. Just don't cross the line and try to suggest superiority to me/us on the quality, refinement and long term value side.
Stephen
I thought this was a discussion about the new Z and it's chances of success for a second go around in the American market place. Since Ford sells 100,000+ Mustangs a year I would imagine Nissan, as a wanna be hope to be, profitable enterprise; they would be sizing up the competition. I think you are wrong in discounting the Mustang Cobra out of the "buyer" decision making equation. But who knows, maybe that is why Nissan and their 300ZX left the market place the last time. Could it be they lost sight of what most Americans want and the market bench mark for pony cars. (You are welcome to your fine "Port", I just hope you don't spill any on you as I bump your elbow swilling my "Millers".) I'm just wondering if the Japanese learned anything about American buying habits and performance desires in the high $20 to sub $30K performance car market. They packed up and went home in mass a few years ago, because they stepped out of that marketing window of opportunity. Have a nice day and I hope you look down occasionally, because people with their nose that high up in the air have a tendency to trip a lot. Your high brow attitude and air of superiority is not where the main stream of the American market place resides and I think that is what the Japanese should be considering with the launch of their new Z. The rubber only meets the road when buyers are willing to pull out their pocket books and we all know there is a lot of Mustangs on rubber out there don't we <Smile>.
And this is the American market, not the European one. In the price range described, the Mustang is one of the best selling and most popular cars of the past ten years. The Z is just struggling to come back alive. In terms of marketing and the public's wallet, the Mustang doesn't need to explain itself to the Z, it will compete with the car by price and size alone.
First of all, the japanese never tried making muscle cars. Second, American muscle cars fell on their faces too, but they had the home court advantage to keep them here in the US.
The Z is a true sports car(2 seats rear wheel drive) where the Mustang is a sport coupe (4 seats rear wheel drive.)
The Z is more targeted toward the driving enthusiest (30-50 yrs old.) The Mustang is targeted toward the younger generation (16-35 yrs. old.)
What dissapoints me about the Mustang is the fact that you see so many around. I can take a ten minute drive around town and see over 20 Mustangs.
And a lot of the Mustangs I see have a baby seat in the back (forgive me, but a baby seat in a sports car does not compute.)
Most of the people I know do buy Mustangs & Camaro's because of what you get for the money as far as performance (you can usually get either one with a V8 for under 25K.) But I often wonder how these people can be so happy about buying a car that has no individuality (I would not want the same kind of car everyone else drives.)
The Z, Supra, RX8 & S2000 are special cars (OK maybe they might get beat by a Mustang or Camaro from red light to red light(heck the other day I met someone that was bragging that he beat an S2000 in his old souped up Maverick.)) The fact is there is always going to be something that can pull a faster quarter time, but personally I would have much more satisfaction riding around town in the Z, Supra, etc. because of what they are. And I espesially wouldn't want to be caught dead in the Maverick (I wouldn't care if could pull a 12 second quarter.)
Most of the people in my area are factory workers or laborers (not a very high percent with college degrees.) And most of these people grew up on Mustangs and refuse to buy into anything but Ford, Chevy or Dodge. When I argue with these people about the better build quality of Japanese cars they gave me an answer like "who cares about build quality when your kicking some Japanese cars butt".
I do agree that mustangs are fast and they do look pretty nice. I even though about getting a Cobra or SVT, but the problem is still having a car that looks just like everyone else's car. The Cobra & SVT are better than the GT's, but they still look the same (OK they might have minor differences, but not enough to turn heads.)
The town I live in has about 15,000 people in it. I would say that there are probably around 30,000 cars in the town. Out of this 30,000 I would estimate that around 4,000 of them are Mustangs, 1,500 or so are Camaro's, 15,000 or so are SUV's or trucks, 4,000 or so are old pieces of junk (old monte Carlo's, etc), probably 5,000 family movers (Taurus, Accord, etc.) and only around 500 or so Japanese sport or sporty cars (Celica, Integra, Supra, Prelude, old Z's, etc.)
So to sum it up. If you buy a Mustang in the area I live in you will be joining the majority, not setting yourself apart. And if you get something like the new Z or anything over 30K you will be in a very rare catagory (most of the people that spend over 30K are buying full size trucks and SUV's.)
I still feel that there will be some competition if the Z maintains good performance (sub-6 second 0-60 times) and keeps the price under $30k. The Mustang has had a reputation as a softer touring car (compared to the camaros) and that's the market the Z will target. However, while the Z might steal away a few Mustang buyers, I doubt it'll have much impact due to its lower volume and the fact that the Mustang's price point for the GT is so much lower. In in motor city where it's easy to get company discount prices, I see a lot of new GTs selling around the $20k mark. That makes it a very attractive car for the price.
The "300Z people" (at the time) might look at cars like the Supra, 3000GT, RX-7, and RX-8. The "Mustang people" would typically look at the Camaro and Firebird (ok, well, to be fair, the die-hard loyalists probably wouldn't look at either).
More important than any actual real differences between the cars is the fact that they appeal to entirely different people - people that tend to be highly polarized when it comes to how they feel about their own cars and the "other side." That being the case, I wouldn't expect the 350Z to steal more than a very small handful of potential Mustang buyers.
Personally, I would take the 350Z over the Mustang. I could care less if the Mustang turns out to be faster and costs less, and I doubt too many 350Z owners will regret their purchase just because a Mustang outruns them. But that's my personal preference only, and the Mustang isn't necessarily a bad car, I just don't like them myself. It is indeed very hard to beat the Mustang's performance at its price point, though.
A Mustang is still a Ford and a Cobra is just a good engine in a Ford. Do I want a Ford (same company who out out such great cars as the Tempo and Contour?)? NO! Plus, before 99 they are all live rear axle cars. No thanks!
Give me the new Z's mulitlink all around please!
Give me the new Z's mulitlink all around please! <<<<<
IRS in a Muscle Car is not desirable for the 1/4 mile strip. There is a firm in Southern California that specializes in stripping out the IRS in 99 and newer Cobras and installing big Ford 9" solid rear ends with 4:10 or 4:30 gears and traction bars. IRS rear ends don't take kindly to 500+ rear wheel horsepower mills. It's called "Hop, Skip & Jump" with rear axle windup and then "Kurpow" out comes the whole rear end.
I guess I was just dissapointed with the 98 stock Mustang Cobra I borrowed from work for the evening. The rear end road like crap!
But if we are talking modifications (which you are), then live rear axle makes sense for durability. If we are talking stock, then I STILL like IRS.
I can only imagine an IRS suspension coming apart at 100+ speeds! :-/
I suspect you maybe right in this observation, however street bragging rights carries a lot influence in the automobile performance community. Initially I suspect the young and upcoming gold chain crowd will shun the Mustang Cobra in favor of the snob appeal and the newness and uniqueness of the 350Z. It will probably eat into BMW's and Porche's sales base for awhile. However as we have seen with the Boxster and the Z-3, the newness wears off after awhile and you best have something up your sleeve to keep the excitment brewing. Hence we have the S Boxster and the M Z-3. I suspect that it won't be more than one or two model years before the 350Z will be sporting a blower or more cubes for better go power. However in the mean time, you are going to have a lot of automobile performance folks, that like Rice Cookers, upset that Nissan didn't put more spinach in the 350Z to start with. I'll bet the after market performance tuners are already working on performance mod's for the engine. I hope Nissan hasn't tweaked the engine for everything it is worth, like Honda did to the S-2000. I understand no one has had much success in squeezing any more pony's out of that mill.
>>>>"it's the whole package"<<<<<<
No no ~ LOL, the basic car is just the platform from which you start introducing your own ideas on what the car should be and how it should perform. I guess if you are just interested in a 36 month lease, maybe you don't. But that is the fun and joy of owning a Mustang. You can turn the car into a show car and a street screamer, that becomes a personality statement of it's owner. It isn't just another shinny jelly bean among a forrest of other jelly beans. I can assure you a tricked out Mustang, done in good taste, will outshine any Boxster, Z-3 or Mercedes SLK at a car show and Katy bar the doors with trying to outrun a hot one on the road. So don't look down your nose at the Mustang, it is the basis of one hell of a nice car, with a little individual care and attention to detail. In the long run you won't have a heck of a lot more money invested in it either, over and above what you would pay for the high priced spread. It is also, oh so gratifying to watch the high priced spread disappear in your rear veiw mirror to ~ LOL. Detroit makes some fine basic Iron from which you can develop a real road rocket and a nice looking chariot, if that is your bag. I think Nissan probably recognizes that fact and will be introducing some options on that Z car of theirs in short order.
I'm seeing a lot of discussion regarding this car being the "hope" for Nissan, "stealing sales" from everyone from Porsche to Ford, etc. All these statements suggest a high performance, high volume, highly available car, but I have no idea if that's the case.
How many of these things will be on sale next year? 5,000? 15,000? 50,000?