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Comments
I personally wouldn't want to tow 3500 pounds with the escape, and I wouldn't want to tow more then 2000 pounds with the CRV. That is just my opinion on how I would tow with these two vehicles if I did tow with them.
the last time I checked, Straight 4, v4, straight 6, v6 all had cylinders that meet at the same crankshaft.. There is no concept of 'independant' or 'pairs' or 'joined' cylinders..
With the 'V' configuration, there are some extra parts as needed (2 sets of cams etc). In this case, you would look at the v6 as 2 banks of 3cylinders, where the left side cylinder valves are driven by one set of cams, and the right side by another.. (or front side/back side since the Escape V6 is put in sideways).
The 'end result' might be similar to what you indicate (straight 6 being a little more efficient than a v6), but the technical details you state as to 'why' are way off.
I say 'might be' because I don't know if there is any mechanical advantage/disadvantage either way, and if there is, it is so small it's not worth mentioning..
How is the quality of the Escape? I have seen them around and they look good. I've never test driven one, but am thinking about it. I know the Escape has had a lot of recalls in prior years. I don't like to fix cars, so if the Escapes spend a lot of time in the shop I would rather pass and wait for Honda to get their act together.
Thanks!
You still haven't answered my question about acceleration. I am waiting for an engineer to explain to me why Honda is only a half second off of your "perfect" vehicle with a 40 hp difference!
I have no idea what you are getting at about rear tires!!!!??? Why hasn't Ford fixed the stalling problem?
I do agree that there is no way a CRV can pull 3000 pounds. That would be dangerous for the handling of the vehicle. As for your gearing theory.....I am not concerned....none of these vehicles were really designed with towing in mind. The Escape and Tribute can pull more but it is not made for that. If you want to pull, get a vehicle with a frame. I can pull a jet ski too. I pull a 4 wheeler (Honda by the way) in the summer and a snowmobile in the winter with 146 hp and no problems! Who really cares.
I have no squeeks, rattles, plastic parts falling off whatever.....you have had to have your rear door and window ajusted already cause it would rattle. I have 40000km's on mine and get 1 1/2 times the gas millage you do BUT you have your choice and I have mine.
The inline 6 has several major advantages over the V6, such as a perfect balance because it doesn't matter if it is first order or second order harmonics because the individual cylinders balance each other out. No balancer shaft required. As you probably know, an inline 6 is essentially two three cylinder engines aligned to balance out the 1st and 2nd order harmonics.
That said the V6 is not nearly as efficient in generating power or keeping vibrations down. Regarding the former, the V6 requires duplicate valve gears and camshafts which create a generous amount of frictional loss.
Bottom line, the V6 has more energy loss because it duplicates valve gears and camshafts, which increases frictional loss.
Major advantage of V6 over the inline 6.... the V6 is much easier to mass produce on the assembly line, therefore it cost less to manufacture.
Hondaman.. and your comment about stalling wasn't dumb?
First of all you are talking a 5spd. Second gearing does come into play along with tire size. Third you have the opportunity with a 5spd to redline through each gear. This is how you achieve the 0-60 times that some say best the V6 automatic in the Escape. You need to tell people its the 5spd NOT the automatic. Why don't you belive consumer reports 0-60 numbers for the Escape Hondaman? This is the Honda bible for quality/reliability stats Honda owners love to quote.
I notice noone fromt he Honda clan commented on Motor Trends article of the Escape beating the CRV...
I concur.
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
Scape.......for the last time, I NEVER EVER believed the CRV could beat the Escape or Tribute. I mentioned this soooooo many times that after my bad experience with the Trib I did think that it was very fast! Is this now clear? All I was trying to say was with a 40hp advantage, it should be beating it by at least 2 seconds but its not is it? Why is that? Don't give me that "gearing theory" again cause 40 hp is a BIG advantage. If I can admit that the Escapes 6 is fast why can't you admit that the Honda 4 is very good at what it does? I thought you were an engineer!!!? I only base ALL of my comments of this vehicle on my own personal experiences and some of others that I have been told. I hope this will be clear from now on.
As for the article in MT, I have not received this months issue yet. I only know very little about what was written and even they say it beat the Escape I think!!? The only reason it won overall is that it fills a gap in the SUV market that other manufacturers did not think that anyone would attempt and I have to admire the Escape for this feat HOWEVER in my opinion, it will not have the same resale value, safety (already proven) and especially, reliability which in terms of sale for sale seems to be true so far. BUT once again, Ford has done a commendable job of filling the missing gap contrary to what the RAV 4 missed out on. Honda and Ford look at this market in totally different terms and both seem to be working.
My dumb "stalling issue" was only brought up because you keep asking questions as to why Honda does not do this or that!
You have a hard time understanding why Honda has such a loyal following and the only way I can explain it is that they have raced everything from lawn mowers to Formula 1 and won it all......they must know something about reliability and technology! You amaze me (for an engineer) of your lack of knowledge of this and the accomplishments Honda (along with Toyota) have achieved in only about 30 years compared to a company that invented the automobile and today is struggling financially and technologically and even logistically!
Lastly, perfection does not exist in either vehicle and advantages are decided by its owner but for arguments sake, MT's article does not discourage the CRV after all, it was decided only on measurements and not long term satisfaction that Honda has surpassed all but Toyota over the years so we shall see how your logic works out.
All things equal except where I see Honda has the advantage and these are the things that matter to me.
- Much safer then the Escape based on "the" two major crash test
- Lower emissions by far!
- better mileage
- previous generation CRV's high resale
- superb build quality, just sit in both vehicles and you can see the difference
- Every other category that I didn't mention, the CRV or escape are pretty much the same, except for towing, but see above posts for more "fun" information.
I have not had any problems with the CRV pulling to the right. The road is crowned that way, lol. Anyways I have 14,500 miles and I am one happy second time owner of the CRV (my previous CRV had 70,000 miles WITHOUT a single problem)!
It probably cost Ford a LOT of money to do this sort of R&D, but even the PR victory alone here should be worth millions in additional revenue to Ford. They'll get in good with the "tree-huggers" and improve their CAFE standing. If quality is killing them, then I hate to say this, but they should move manufacturing from Mexico to Brazil...Volkswagen seems to be having good results in Brazil. It'd be better if they could move it back to the USA, but the Japanese are building cars for themselves here and then shipping them back to Japan.
Also, you know what I was saying before? About Honda basically not letting people know what's going on being why I wouldn't buy one? Keep in mind that if all of these American companies such as Enron and Worldcom were honest and open with people, maybe they wouldn't be in so much trouble now. Ford is open with people. Honda is more secretive. Enron was secretive. Worldcom was secretive. Food for thought (Of course, the SEC hasn't looked at Ford's books, that I know of...or Honda, as a matter of fact...hehehe)
Honda may have raced everything and won, but that means precisely d**k (Too bad I can't quote MIB in here..hehe). So they know how to race...so what? Racing is a completely different world from the road. Racing has nothing to do with appealing to the following factors that are important to consumers:
Styling
Interior design
HVAC
Suspension (different targets)
Handling (also different target)
Towing
Being a good designer of race cars DOES give an advantage in some areas though:
Engine design
Chassis construction and safety
Aerodynamics
I'll admit most Japanese engines are more advanced than American ones, though I tend to prefer turbochargers to variable valve timing and lift, since they seem to give a greater benefit for less cost (Fuel economy and noise)....go Europe!
I am very excited for the hybrid escape, I am glad they are working on it! Along with the Hybrid Dodge Durango, and Hybrid Chevy 1500.
Since Honda is the "greenest" automobile company (which is one of the reasons I am so loyal) they don't need additional PR. The word on the street is their is a Honda Hybrid CRV in the making and will be released if the Civic hybrid is successful.
Because the big 3 don't have a hybrid out, they need to tell the market some are on the way. Honda doesn't need that PR, and as we all know they are extremely "top secret" with upcoming vehicles. ie. '03 Accord to be released in a month, spy shots were just discovered!
One last time, you drive a 2001 CR-V. It tested just as bad with the IIHS. Do you feel unsafe driving it around?
Just because it is a brand new vehicle does not mean it will automatically test well. They don't crash test them until they are built. If it does poorly they don't scrap years of work and start over. That's just the way it is.
Honda had a 2-3 year jump on Ford in design time. Both crash tested similarly because safety technology did not change that much in between. Changes (obviously for the better) were made to the new generation of CR-V's. I'm quite sure Ford will do something fairly comparable for the next Escape.
"Nascar is developed on basic mechanics and high technology is not part of the picture."
By the way, did you happen to see Steve Park go flying through the air at Pocono yesterday? After a crash which one looks more like a car you can buy, F1 or stock car? Looks like those "basic mechanics" can still save lives.
On another note, I didn't receive this month's Motor Trend either. Shouldn't it have come already?
Baggs wrote - "Honda had a 2-3 year jump on Ford in design time. Both crash tested similarly because safety technology did not change that much in between."
Which models are you comparing with the 2-3 year jump you mentioned? Also wouldn't that be a disadvantage? It means that Ford had 2-3 years to improve on the design. Also, there have a number of SUV designed around the same time and even earlier than the Escape, which have received average and good scores. Take the '98 Forester for example. The "technology" has been around long enough.
5. It is one of the only segments left to exploit. The econobox segment has been filled by Toyota and Honda. The compact car segment has been filled by Honda. The mid-size SUV and minivan segments are likley to be filled by Dodge and GM has targeted pickups. Honda has also spoken about plans for the mid-size market with a hybrid Pilot. Ford needs a family sedan that can compete in the normal market before it introduces one that is strictly a PR tool.
4. Ford needs to go fast. They must be first with a small SUV because Honda has already threatened that niche with the possibility of a hybrid CR-V.
3. Ford really, really, really needs some positive press with the eco-friendly part of the market. They took an undeserved beating for the Excursion and their SUV fleet has never been a source of goodwill with the greener folks.
2. Other technologies have already been brought to market. Toyota has the EV RAV4 in California. Honda is already moving on to fuel cells and is first with a car that meets US standards.
1. Ford was able to BUY their hybrid technology from Toyota!
Okay, that said, I am in full support of the HEV Escape project. While the reasons above may not be the most altruistic (they are not even driven by popular opinion), the end result is commendable. I say, "go Ford!" But I hope they don't screw it up with a crappy product. There are others waiting in the wings who might do a much better job.
Yes it has, but that does not mean it is executed very well all of the time. Ford should have made the Escape perform better in that test, I don't disagree there. For some reason, most likely cost when considering the CEO at the time, they did not or maybe they thought they were but didn't.
Honda could have done the same after seeing the RAV4 score a marginal a year or two before it debuted.
Crash testing a NASCAR car is nothing compared to what happened to Giancarlo Fisichella in F1 last week when he hit a tire wall at 125 mph and experienced NEGATIVE 34 G's DECELERATION!!! That would kill any NASCAR driver immediately! NASCAR is a great sport as is all racing BUT it is NOT the reference point of high tech. It was never meant to be.
Sorry npaladin2000 but racing is the very key to a successful company. Of course not all the high tech stuff ends up in a road car but little odds and ends that do can be the difference between success and failure of a model. What comes to mind first is reliability.....this is the key to racing and winning and a lot of the technology ends up in your driveway. If Honda had never won as many world championships as it has done, I am sure we would not be having this conversation!
If I was to guess, I would say that Ford does testing, does anyone know?
I didn't say that they don't crash test their vehicles. As a matter of fact, I believe they do because what I said was "They don't crash test them until they are built. If it does poorly they don't scrap years of work and start over." When the design is finalized and they start building the pre-production copies, then they crash test. You can't actually crash test something that doesn't exist. Computers can help, but they aren't true to the real thing all the time because the computer is testing a static design and model every time.
" I only want to know why the old model (like mine!!!) has a touch better safety record than the Escape now!?"
How do you figure? Both had an overall rating of marginal in the IIHS test, and each earned five stars in all but one NHTSA test.
"I am aware that I drive a 2001 CRV! That has nothing to do with what I am talking about."
Sure it does. Here's your original quote, in regard to the Escape's IIHS safety score, again:
"You guys gloated over a back bumper glitch for a while but I think that there are more serious issues you should be concerned about."
Once more, are you concerned? Are you worried that you are unsafe every time you get in your CR-V? Do you think the Honda badge on the frond of your CR-V is only invincible to kryptonite?
"he hit a tire wall at 125 mph"
I hope you meant 225 mph. Park hit the guard rail a lot faster than 125 mph, but he kept going through the air before finally stopping.
I believe the RAV4 was tested at the same time as the last gen CR-V. Well after both had been developed.
"IF Ford doesn't crash their vehicle to make sure they are safe, then that shows what kind of company they are. Too cheap to address safety?" - Daveghh
Ford does do their own testing (or at least they out-source the job). Though, in this case, I think we can blame Mazda as they were the product designers. But I think we're blowing the issue out of proportion at this point. We only have three tests with which to measure the issue, yet there are many more types of crashes. I think it's pretty obvious that Ford/Mazda didn't spend a whole lot of time on off-set crash tests, but that doesn't speak to every type of crash. The Escape isn't an unsafe vehicle. It just isn't up to the same standard as the CR-V.
Most don't have to. Honda has accurately predicted the crash ratings for every model they've produced in recent years (since 99, I think). Crash safety is one of the goals in the design process. It is something that can be developed on paper or with a computer. The designers do not need to wait for actual tests.
Ford didn't adequately design the 2000 Escape, it was in LAST place for the small SUV's. Granted this is only two tests but...
To me their is no comparison between the escape and the 2002 crv. Look at these pictures! Which would you rather be in???
2002 CRV
2001 Escape
pictures attributed to gatorgreg's post in another topic....
.
Yes I know this is the offset test picture, and this is one very specific crash, etc. etc.
Well, this gives one a good idea on what would happen with a full frontal crash as well and it certainly shows the integrity, strength and structure design differences between the two automobiles for any front crash. Look at the frame of both vehicles, see the difference in the bends and buckles?
Varmint, how do you italicize and bold your text????
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
I am not worried about my own safety as I had a bad accident in March with an Explorer only to receive half of the damage he did so your theory has been proven wrong.
I wanted a 2002 CRV but it did not come as equiped as mine for 3000$ less and power and towing mean nothing to me. I like the looks of both and I even like the looks of the Escape and Tribute but I would have a hard time changing to Ford after what I experienced with the Tribute! That is the only reason why I am writing on this forum as I do like some Ford products.
Don't try to tell me NASCAR has better technology than F1 cause that would be comparing apples to oranges! The roll cage saved his life and neck harness........look at an F1 car...no roll cage and the driver's head is outside the vehicle. Neck harnesses will only be introduced next year. The car has to absorb all shock not the cage. This technology is put into Honda products on a smaller scale.
You seem to be implying that the only racing program Ford participates in is NASCAR..
This simply isn't true.. Ford is involved in about every type of automobile racing out there, even more than Honda..(world rally, truck, scca trans-am, indy, cart, and yes Ford does have an F1 program via Jaguar, and countless other programs).
So there is very little correlation between a manufactures racing program and their production automobile program.
Back to the crashtest issue,
Funny how Honda CRV owners want to sweep the braking distance under the carpet.. A factor that can prevent you from getting into an accident in the first place. The Escape beats the CRV in the ability to bring the vehicle to a stop by feet. Depending on which site you believe it can either be 4ft or 9ft.
Another thing, if Honda is so advanced and so far ahead, why in the Heck didn't they fix the terrible damage that is done to the back bumper/tire/window/tailgate upon a 5MPH bump!@????
Hondaman, if you believe Ford only races NASCAR I have a beautiful bridge, red in color and with a fantastic view of San Francisco to sell you, interested? "power and towing mean nothing to me"??? this is funny comment. I would bet when most people test drive a vehicle, how a vehicle responds/accelerates or performs is a factor when comparing other models.
scape- that is a very scary thought.
I'll have to remain on my very best behavior! ;-)
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
1. Escape wins when it comes to stopping on a dime.
2. The CRV wins the crash tests.
3. The Escape wins when it comes to supermarket fender benders.
4. CRV and Escape tie when it comes to acceleration
5. Escape wins in the towing arena
6. CRV wins mileage
7. CRV wins emissions
8. CRV and Escape tie on interior space
9. CRV is presumed to be more reliable and will more likely have a higher resale
10. off roading??? What does the latest MT say?
Last but certainly not least!
The CRV wins because it comes with a picninc table!
You KNOW someone is going to chime in with something like "The Escape wins the stopping on a dime competition - because it can't make it over the top!"
That person will be charged with disrupting the board and will be required to treat the rest of us to Krispy Kremes!
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
2. The CRV wins the crash tests.
3. The Escape wins when it comes to supermarket fender benders.
4. CRV and Escape tie when it comes to acceleration
5. Escape wins in the towing arena
6. CRV wins mileage
7. CRV wins emissions
8. CRV and Escape tie on interior space
9. CRV is presumed to be more reliable and will more likely have a higher resale"
The tendency toward emmissions winners goes towards mileage winners...burn less gas and you have fewer emmissions. SO I'd say those two items are the same item. So when we figure this out, giving one point to each vehicle per winning category:
Escape: 5
CR-V: 5
Off=roading....don't make me laugh! The Escape might be more of a truck than the CR-V but neither one is designed for off-roading...neither one has a low-range. The Escape DOES have a switch on the dash to lock into AWD mode..dunno if it locks the center differential or not. THat MIGHT give it an edge in the AWD category but neither one is meant for anything beyond snow, and gravel and dirt roads. Meaning we have a tie here. Meaning like whichever one fits your needs, and blast anyone who doesn't like the vehicle that fits your needs because it doesn't fit theirs. Oh...wait a sec...we're already doing that! Sorry! Play on boys!
Scape...........scape scapescape!!!!!!!! Not everyone is power hungry and wants to tow their house!!!!!!!! I wanted reliability, gas millage and room for two adults and two kids that is all. I previously owned a Civic Si so I have had the power option and it has cost me in tickets and made me more aggressive as a driver. Now I like that I drive slower a safer. I choose to buy Honda because I like them. You would like us all to believe the same values as you when buying a vehicle but that will just not be the case!
Recently, I have even been giving the Escape some good comments but it would seem that this message did not get through! BUT your comment about braking 4 feet better (however, this is debateable as some reviews put them very close)is a cover up for the safety issue of your vehicle compared to a Kia!
You are right about a general tendency about lower mileage vehicles polluting more. But with the CRV vs Escape debate I think the CRV can take the crown here. Think we should distinguish between mileage and emmissions knowing what I just posted?
BTW the V6 emits emits about the same as the 4 cyl escape. So for the V6 the engine is more refined the the 4 cyl.
hondaman,
"you guys were so keen to get us "Honda Drones" to believe we had a real major fault when you didn't look at the overall safety record of your own vehicle first"
Don't try and put me in that group now. I was the one pointing out why the CR-V's damage estimate was so high (rear glass pops out to the ground). I don't care about that test that much. Damage estimates were almost just as high for most other SUV's when they all had steel bumpers a few years back. The CR-V has many other faults that led us to another brand, but otherwise I think it definitely deserves to be in the top two of this class. I checked the safety of the Escape before we bought it, and because it didn't go up into a ball of flames or compact like an empty beer can in every single test, I wasn't too concerned. If, and I hope never (knock wood), we ever do crash the Escape, there's about a 99.99999999999...% chance that the accident will not be like that of the IIHS test. Since it scored very well in all other areas, the IIHS test does not hold as much weight with me. You had to have a similar feeling when shopping for your 2001 CR-V if you were at all concerned with safety.
" am not worried about my own safety as I had a bad accident in March with an Explorer only to receive half of the damage he did so your theory has been proven wrong."
What theory? I asked you a direct question. It's funny how your story has changed since being asked if you feel safe in your CR-V that scored no better than the Escape or the Kia that you love to rip apart. Here's the link to that again in case you forgot:
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/98017.htm
You might want to compare it to that Kia which you keep talking about too.
I've seen the race car safety shows on the Discovery channel so I know that F1 cars have a lot more technology involved in their development. A stock car is a closer cousin to a passenger car than an F1 car is though. I know that none of my cars are made of carbon fibre like and F1 car. Are any of yours? A lot of Honda's engine technology comes from their racing experience. I don't really think they get much safety development from it though.
Have you seen the NASCAR Toyota Celica yet? Is that a joke? A multivalve V8 in NASCAR? I guess it's only a matter of time before we see Dale Jr. flying around Daytona with one of those coffee can mufflers and neon lighting attached to the undercarriage of his new #8 celica.
bess and scape,
hondaman and I were talking about specific events from this past weekend. He stated before that Ford is involved in many types of racing, and that they do quite well in most of them. I'm just toying with him a little as I've only been a NASCAR fan for about two years now and before that I hardly watched any racing at all.
davegh,
I agree with npaladin on your ratings. They are very equal overall.
"Well, this gives one a good idea on what would happen with a full frontal crash as well"
The NHTSA performs the full frontal crash along with some other angles, and the Escape had five stars in all but one category where it scored a four. Passenger side front crash I believe it was. The CR-V did have five all around. Not a big difference there. So does that go to show that the Escape might not be as bad as everyone thinks then?
But then we can also say that not only does the Escape tow more, but it can also carry more weight on the roof and in the cargo area. Just because it can tow more doesn't mean it can carry more in the back because the floor could be weak.
This could go on forever if we wanted it to.
Then each person can weigh any one of the 10 criteria as much as they like and they could adjust the 5 to 5 any way they want. Essentially a weighted objectives table.
For ie.
I don't care about towing, so that is not a factor for me. So I can say that towing is weighted very low for me. So essentially I would say the CRV get 5 and the Escape gets 4.
Maybe you don't care about being "green", then you could say that isn't important to you so the escape would come out with 5 and the CRV with 4.
I quanitified this argument because sometimes it helps certain folks, like myself, realize that these are two very good vehicles. Both are certainly comparable to each other and what it comes down to is personal preference.
To answer your question however about my CRV safety issue......I meant that after my accident, I realised that I was in a good vehicle and that you are right that chances of us having an accident the same as those tested are almost nil!
I have not seen this Toyota NASCAR you are talking about. Do you know where I could look at it on the net?
I don't know if the world is ready for "TYoda" in NASCAR.
Now back to the regular scheduled program.
"Then each person can weigh any one of the 10 criteria as much as they like and they could adjust the 5 to 5 any way they want. Essentially a weighted objectives table." - Daveghh
Now we are getting somewhere. One of the problems with comparison threads such as this is that no one wants to agree on what the average customer wants. Some want towing, some want safety, etc. It's hard to pick a "winner" when there is no standard to measure against.
In terms of professional reviews, R&T gives the best data. They provide a score for each category and how many points that category is worth for the final evaluation.
I'm game if anyone wants to start that process.
I'm just having fun too. I was starting to wonder about you though. Here's a link to a picture of the V6 Celica that is raced on the Goody's circuit. http://www.toyotacelicaonline.com/fastest.htm
I can't find it right now, but I read elsewhere that they are going to begin testing a 4.6L 32V V8 to use up against the big boys.
davegh,
You're right, I don't give a crap about it being "green". I don't even care about 0-60 times or towing capacity either. My wife picked the Escape and that's what I'm driving until the next gen Mustang comes out. Although, the Escape would have been my first choice too.
varmint,
If you want, we can try that again. The only problem is that most publications still factor personal preference in with the final tallies. This sometimes results in a loss for the vehicle with the superior specs.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you though