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Acura TSX

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Comments

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    7-10% below MSRP is my formula when negotiating with dealers. I will apply the same on TSX as well. If they don't agree, I can always take my business elsewhere. That said, invoice on TSX should be around $23,900.
  • bmw_fanbmw_fan Posts: 15
    "#1403 of 1454 by venus537 Apr 06, 2003 (1:50 pm) and what old tricks would those be?"

    Trying to disguise the TSX's shortcomings by offering more features for less money.

    "1406 of 1454 bmw_fan...actually, Acura has a lot of go.... by intmed99 Apr 06, 2003 (1:53 pm
    Acura cars are very fast...i am sure the BMW 3-series owners are well aware of that!"

    If Acura cars are fast then explain to me how Car and Driver is able to get a faster 0-60 time for a BMW 330Ci 5-speed vs. an Acura 3.2CL Type S 6-speed despite the facts that the 330Ci had less hp and torque and one less gear than the 3.2CL-S? (source: http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2002/- - - july/200207_comparo_hobson.xml)
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    And I also agree with that Forbes article that Acura needs an 8 cylinder and RWD to keep up in the market. I have an LS400 and can't imagine a car like that being a 6 cylinder and FWD. Honda is gonna have to get over it.
  • markjennmarkjenn Posts: 1,142
    Wow, this article really rings true to me. I owned a 87 Legend Coupe 5-speed. Superb car. I keep wanting for Acura to get back to its roots and produce state-of-the-art cars, but we keep getting warmed over Accords and Civics with stupid names.

    - Mark
  • himilerhimiler Posts: 1,209
    "While Acuras are good handling cars, they rarely come out on top in road tests against rear-wheel-drive models from BMW, Mercedes, or Nissan's Infiniti. In short, Acura has conceded the driving-enthusisat market to those competitors."

    Amen.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    last year. Bimmer has always been the best. And Acura HAS beaten Benz a few times.

    Acuras with the eception of the Legend have always been "warmed over (regualar Hondas) since the name Acura is only in select markets. Heck Lexus's are warmed over Toyotas to most of the world. And Infiniti's most popular models have platforms shared with Nissan. Not to mention that overused 3.5 liter VQ.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Acura has beaten Mercedes on value a few times yes, namely with the current TL-S, other than that I don't recall Acura ever beating Mercedes.

    M
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    The RL is eons old and Benz C-coupe vs. RSX is stretching it a bit.

    The MDX handily dispatches the M-class though unless you start comparing it with the much more expensive V8 equipped models.
  • himilerhimiler Posts: 1,209
    You fail to recognize the main thrust of the article -- without a V8 or (at the very least) a RWD passenger car, Acura will continue to come up short in comparison to the other "premium" brands.

    Of course, one has to wonder if Acura doesn't already know this (they do), or if they care (probably not).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    bmw_fan
    Trying to disguise the TSX's shortcomings by offering more features for less money.


    I think you got it the wrong way. TSX is being marketed as a near luxury performance sedan. Neither as a race-car, nor as a premium luxury sedan. So it has what it takes to be just that. OTOH...

    If Acura cars are fast then explain to me how Car and Driver is able to get a faster 0-60 time for a BMW 330Ci 5-speed vs. an Acura 3.2CL Type S 6-speed despite the facts that the 330Ci had less hp and torque and one less gear than the 3.2CL-S?

    One gear less doesn't really play a role, but curb weight and launch characteristics of a front driver could. If you notice the numbers beyond just 0-60, you will see more. CL-S with auto has shown consistent time in low 6 seconds, a transmission that is not really geared optimally for a good 0-60 run (second gear will pull 75 mph). With manual, it could be definitely quicker than the 5.9s it got.

    gee35coupe
    And I also agree with that Forbes article that Acura needs an 8 cylinder and RWD to keep up in the market.


    I don't think Acura needs RWD and/or V8 engine. All it needs is a logical spread of models offering value and variety. Audi has proven that RWD is not required to ‘please' the crowd. Have a good FWD platform and use AWD system to accomplish the rest.

    As for V8, if Acura opted to offer one on RL, they will definitely make it an option. That means, V6 would still be the base offering. And if we use the model set by some other offerings in the class that come with 6/8 cylinder choices, the facts suggest that V8 is for namesake only. Examples: Audi A6, BMW 5-Series, Jaguar S-Type and Lexus GS. If V8 was a must have in $40K+ price class, things should be a lot different.

    Honda/Acura may be thinking wider application of IMA to get more power (and more importantly, at the low end). Not a bad idea.

    BTW, Infiniti has been offering RWD (and V8) since the brand was launched, about 14 years ago.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    To move "upmarket" it's gonna be hard without a V8 or better in your flagship. There are rumors Lexus is coming out with the V12 option. They have had it in a larger home market Toyota model for a few years now. With gas still pretty cheap Acura is going nowhere fast against a market where even the Passat has a (slow for the power) V8.
  • himilerhimiler Posts: 1,209
    The 2005 RL will likely have a 300-hp 3.5L V6 and an AWD system similar to the MDX. Acura is targeting the A6 and 5-Series with the next RL, which will feature some major handling moves.

    I don't think Acura needs a V8 sedan, per se, but a RWD/AWD platform will give the afformentioned driving enthusiasts something to consider.

    Remember, Honda KNOWS that Acura isn't BMW, Lexus, M-B, or Infiniti, and has apparently preferred to take a different (albeit with questionable success) approach to near-lux cars. Different mission, different cars.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    A lot of people like to compare RL to LS430 or E430 or whatever. The fact is, that LS430 costs pretty close to $60K, a premium of about 25% over the RL. If Acura were to compete in that price class, they will have to offer a V8, or an exceptional drive train, possibly with use of a transparent IMA system. That, however, will leave a huge gap between TL (low 30s) and RL (low 50s).

    To address that gap, one or more of the following may have to be addressed
    - V6 will have to be offered as the base engine
    - TL will have to move upward
    - New model between TL and RL

    TL should stay put. It has become the bread and butter car for Acura. This is an interesting point since a decade ago Integra was positioned to do that. Now, TL outsells RSX by 2:1. Clearly, Acura has moved up-market. Much of this was also accomplished by moving the Integra upward as well. First, RS was dropped (around 1998, I think), and then, LS was given up, as the RSX duo cover the bases for GS and GS-R respectively. The repositioning of TL in 1998 helped.

    New model between TL and RL is feasible, but instead of doing that, RL could be the middle trim, and Acura may launch an upscale model on top to go against the premium luxury cars! So, this choice could be a toss up.

    Now, going back to the first point, offering V6 as the base engine. Like I pointed out earlier, if sales numbers are any indication, six cylinder versions rule the scene. If Lexus sells 1250 units of GS300, they manage to move 150 units of GS430. The same will happen if RL was offered with V6 as well as V8 choices. I don't think it will be a smart move to focus on something that will yield next to nothing, for the sake of image, that BTW, may not be guaranteed.

    So, why is a V8 needed?
    - Is it for more power?
    - Is it for more prestige?
    - Or is it something else?

    Let us look at the possibilities. The time for redesigned Acura RL is overdue. It should be revealed as soon as the new TL goes on sale (summer, I would think). One thing that will help is, repositioning of RL. More standard features but sub-40K price tag. This is certainly possible as a large version of TL. 3.5 liter V6 with 260 HP with a load of features will be more than enough to keep it competent. If this can help keep monthly sales of around 1500, I would say, mission accomplished for Acura regardless of what people have to say.

    That brings us to more power. Well, Honda/Acura will have no trouble getting 300 horses from the 3.5 liter V6, the engine that can be lifted directly from Acura DNX prototype (TL/RL are rumored to get the first DOHC iVTEC V6 anyway). So, power issue is resolved to some extent. Some may still argue about power at low engine speed that can come from 4.0 to 4.5-liter V8. Now, Acura MDX has a V6 that delivers about 235 lb.-ft @ 2000 rpm, so the new engine should be capable of doing that. Now, the tiny electric motor, found in Civic Hybrid can generate enough power to help in acceleration and implement idle-stop, while adding 35-40 lb.-ft between 1000 and 2000 rpm. Using one of that can boost the low-end torque (under 2500 rpm) to around 275 lb.-ft, about as much as one can expect a 4.5-liter V8 to deliver at that engine speed. Not a bad idea, is it? And if the price can be kept down low under $45K, who would care about a V8?

    Now, to address the often-raised issues, there are a few ways that makes sense, and as I have already pointed out, the option of AWD. This will shut up a lot of critics, much like it helps Audi. A more powerful variant of RL should definitely use that.

    I don't think increasing number of cylinders is the only option. I say, whatever it takes to help the baseline, in this case, sales. It may not be a bad idea, after all, to be different from the crowd, something that can help establish a different kind of image, better for the long term.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    More than 6 cylinders can even be "disastrous". Look at the 1994 530i V8 & the recent VW W8. & Look at where the new M45 V8 sedan from Infiniti is competing with? People calls its looks "Crown-Victoria like". & its TV commercial shows how it belongs to the '60's muscle cars, sedans & coupes, albeit w/ some "intelligence".

    BMW's 3.0 L6 is already mighty & smooth. Why need more? In-line 6 is better than anything else. The shorter-block Nissan 3.5 V6 isn't bad either!

    Light-weight engines rule, at least for fwd. TSX's got the best 4-cyl in the world, 'cause its smooth & quiet almost like a 6-cyl w/o the annoying inconsistent-output like the non-normally-aspirated engines.

    This engine can fit into Civics & other light-weight cars!
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "Nobody needs more than 6 cylinders"

    You've never driven a 540i, GS430, or Corvette, have you...

    "TSX's got the best 4-cyl in the world, 'cause its smooth & quiet almost like a 6-cyl w/o the annoying inconsistent-output like the non-normally-aspirated engines"

    You've never driven a Saab either...
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    Powerful rwd "dragsters" like the 6-cyl normally aspirated M3 works, too. But I'm already having fun pushing the light-weight 4-cyl Miata doing power oversteer.

    I drove a Saab 900 (w/ air-cooled)turbo before. It was a pain in the butt. When I up-shifted to 2nd gear, the boost was already gone!

    So I lost faith in the turbo/stick combination. Even when I drove the light-pressure '98 Audi A4 1.8T auto, that "soft-response" bothers me. Sure, no lag, but there's still that pressure-building period of about 1/2 sec. Even the Kompressor in the Mercedes 2.3 was annoying to average female drivers. That's why the best-designed driver's cars - BMW - don't bother to force-induce air into their gasoline engines.

    When having fun cornering, every throttle precision counts. It's not worth greedy turbo charging for the extra accelerating power. Only in high altitude areas, might you find this turbo's trade off worthwhile.
  • I would be interested to see a profile of what Acura buyers' other choices were; what cars are actually Acura's competition?

    It seems to me (and this is PURELY speculation--somebody set me straight if you know better) that Acura builds cars for those people who want a "luxury car" but can't afford one. Those who opt for Acura get great reliability and a lot of the features. They give up leader-of-the-pack performance, but also ditch the leader-of-the-pack pricetag. Keep reading if you want to know my reasoning--it's a long post but it makes sense if you have time to read it all.

    I say that the TSX is going after the low-end entry-level sport sedans like 325i, C 240, A4 1.8T, etc.

    The TL seems to fit with the Lexus ES 300, Infiniti I 35, Cadilac CTS, and Lincoln LS V6 which are not among the top "entry-level lux" cars.

    The MDX is obviously going after the Lexus, BMW, MB, and VW SUVs. This is the only Acura that is a real leader in its class (as far as I know--I don't know the RSX or NSX's niches well enough to comment on them).

    What about the CL? It must be competition for the 330i coupe, the MB coupe, or the Infiniti G35 coupe, all of which are conspicuously RWD.

    The RL doesn't seem to be competing with anybody. I have not seen it used in a comparison test in any of the magazines for years. I suppose it would fit with the 5 series and E class. It certainly isn't up there with the 7, S class, or LS 430.

    Having said all that, what strikes me most about the Acura lineup is that their cars aren't "top cars" compared to the other "luxury" marques (minus the MDX--again, I don't know enough about the RSX or NSX to comment).

    If the top cars in the "entry/near lux" category are the BMW 330i and the Audi A4 3.0, the next few on that list (remember that the list of coupes is quite short) would likely not include Acura EXCEPT in the value category in which the Acura TL and CL would be tops. I'm not saying Acura is inferior, simply that for whatever reason, they aren't generally the best cars in a given class (I guess that must imply that they are inferior?).

    In the next step up, the 5 series, E class, and A6 would be at the top of the heap. Again, Acura might only beat out the American offerings (Caddy and Lincoln) EXCEPT in value (notice a pattern?).
    This is where I get my little "Acura - the luxury car for people who can't afford a luxury car" thesis. I figure that Acura knows this and it is the only reason why Acura is not churning out real contenders. Right now their calling card is price and they can't develop a world-beater for $28k.
  • regfootballregfootball Posts: 2,166
    whoever said Infiniti just came out with RWD cars obviously never saw the original Q45, or the J30 and 2nd gen Q45 either.
  • as though it is from another time with a very upright windshield and dated dash (not to mention exterior) design. Honda clearly lost its way with this one, much in the same way Infiniti did trying to chase the Lexus LS. I think the TSX is more true to Acura's niche of doing things a bit differently than countering BMW head-on. If it keeps them independent, great. However, I think some type of AWD system would have done much to counter compaints from the "enthusiast" crowd much like an Audi w/ Quattro or a Subaru WRX.
  • bmw_fanbmw_fan Posts: 15
    Here's the correct link:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2002/- - july/200207_comparo_hobson.xml

    "I think you got it the wrong way. TSX is being marketed as a near luxury performance sedan. Neither as a race-car, nor as a premium luxury sedan. So it has what it takes to be just that. OTOH..."

    Robertsmx, do you think fake wood or average feeling leather or having to rev the hell out of the car to get it moving fast is going to cut it in a near luxury performance car? And by the way, can you show me a link to where the CL-S auto got 5.9 seconds from 0-60mph? The fastest I've seen is 6.4 seconds from Motor Trend (source: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0108_cl/ )

    musicman12, I've said this in the past and I'm going to say it again, unless Acura gets their act together and learn from the competitors' mistakes, Acura = fake luxury = poor man's idea of luxury.
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