Oil change/fiascos

210delray · August 2007

Plus the reminder light was put in after the Toyota oil sludge brouhaha, which IMO was overblown, especially once the class action lawyers got involved.

So, your light comes on, you don't know how to make it go off, and you go to the dealer to have your oil changed at the same time. Pretty smart of Toyota if you ask me!

Personally, I was just so glad to find that it was possible to turn off the light without visiting the friendly dealer, and I do read the manual cover to cover.

imidazol97 · August 2007

The oil sludge in several different cars seemed to be a confluence of several items including poor maintenance, perhaps poorer quality oil, a problem causing a susceptibility to sludge formation, driving usage pattern, and maybe even a weather pattern where the car was driven.

This reminds me of someone at the post office commenting about his red leSabre and my red leSabre. He told me his had been driven by his adult daughter for 37 or 39K miles and he said she never changed the oil. He had given it to her and this was near the 100K mile mark. If sludging we possible that would be the time! He changed oil. Drove 500 miles in his work where he drives a route and drained the oil. He said there was a heavy goo coming out when the mechanic showed him the car draining. Car's running fine at about 250K. But he continued changing the oil frequently.

BTW this car has the indicator light for oil change due...

wtd44 · August 2007

I'll never forget the "dealer must turn it off" red light coming on in my 1990 Dodge Ramcharger. The light was factory set to come on that way to remind you that there were certain maintenance tasks to do on the "clean air" equipment in the 65K miles neighborhood. And yes, it was delineated in the owners manual that this would come to pass. The local Chrysler dealer charged me $65 to turn off the light, and admitted that in the case of my Ramcharger, I was maintaining it so well that nothing was out of specs.

nandavea · September 2007

This is a little long... Please know that I am a Norwegian. This post are for the mechanical sleuths out there who love to solve mysteries. My daughter had her oil changed at a Walmart store. After leaving, she noticed that the car ran rough and that the oil light would come on. She also got new tires, and was told that the ones that she had on her car were the wrong size. She was also told that the car would run differently because of the new tires. When the engine light went on she thought it was overfilled and would soon adjust and the difference she noticed in the performance of her car she attributed to the tires. Her friends also told her that they thought her engine didn't sound right, but she kept thinking tires... Taking a trip to a distant town, her car broke down. I towed her back to a repair shop, he turned it over, shook his head saying, "The engine is blown." He tested the dip stick--NO oil. We contacted the place Warmart claiming they forgot the oil (it had just opened about a week before and was understandably on a learning curve). We paid to have the engine taken out to be inspected. The first cylinder to receive the oil was almost fine, the back two were dry as a sun-baked bone with both rods broken. They sent their inspector and he said that there was absolutely NO sign of a leak. "Where did the oil go? he kept asking. We are contending that it was not put in, at least not in sufficient quantity. They however, contend that the car could not have gone 277 miles (which it did) with so little oil. Now, here's my question for the auto mechanic wizards. In doing research it was suggested that since the cylinder first receiving the oil was getting some because it was in pretty good shape, the speed of the pistons was vaporizing some oil that was reaching the other pistons for a period of time allowing the engine to work, but roughly. In time however, the overheated dry pistons kept burning more and more of the vaporized oil until there was none at all and that's when the engine threw the two rods. My question is whether this is a possible explanation or is there a better one? What I know is that the car ran roughly after leaving the oil change, there is by expert testimony no sign of any leaks, and we did not remove oil to get a different engine our of Walmart(my daughter's engine was in top condition with low mileage). These are all facts. The mystery is how could it go 277 miles with so little oil before blowing up? Any help on this mystery would be greatly appreciated. David

shipo · September 2007

I think that 277 miles is a bit long but not impossible (when the car was towed were the drive wheels on the ground causing the odometer to rack up more miles?), especially if the car has an oversized radiator to keep the cylinder wall temperatures down. That said, my guess is that they probably put one quart in and forgot to do the rest. The filter will displace a fair percentage of that quart, and I suppose it is possible for the rest of the oil to have vaporized given the high heat that would have been inside the block, especially down in the uncooled crank area.

Obviously my comments are just speculation.

Please keep us posted on the outcome. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

jipster · September 2007

I thought most quickie lube places would show the customer the dipstick after an oil change to show the correct amount of oil was added and that it was clean? Does Walmart do this? That's a smart thing to do, though my dealership doesn't do this.

Walmart's only defense could be your daughter took out the oil drain plug to get a new engine. Most illogical.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2007

I think the point is not proving how far one can go without oil---obviously there was SOME oil in the engine or it wouldn't have gone 5 miles.

If the engine shows the classic signs of oil starvation that's really all Walmart needs to know. The car couldn't burn 5 quarts in 277 miles and it didn't leak it, so that's your answer.

You may need to tape over your daughter's mouth about driving with the oil light on---that was definitely not a great thing to do.

Red oil light means STOP, as in right now, right here.

nandavea · September 2007

I'm the one who posted this. There will likely be further posts, but I wanted to thank those who already took time. It's a bit humbling to me, but says great things as strangers have the quality of helping out another stranger. Again thanks!

Mr_Shiftright · September 2007

Yes do keep us informed as things progress. Your experiences in turn will help us, and probably others yet to join us.

MrShiftright
Host

roadburner · September 2007

I agree. There was maybe a quart or two in the sump; enough to let it limp along for a bit. I don't see how Walmart can wiggle out of this one...

andre1969 · September 2007

I have an oil filter question concerning my 2000 Intrepid. It has the 2.7 V-6, and the oil filter it uses is a Fram PH16, which is kind of a stubby little thing.

On another forum, it was mentioned that two longer filters, a PH43 and PH8A should fit. I've used both of those filters, as the PH8A was commoon on Mopar smallblocks and big-blocks. The PH43 was called for in tighter situations, such as the V-8 Dart and all the Aspen/Volare derivatives (F/M/J body).

The PH8A is about an inch and a half longer than the PH16. Would putting a longer filter on, presuming that it will, indeed, fit, help out much with lubrication? I figure a larger filter increases capacity a bit, but also greatly improves filtering capacity, and it much less likely to clog.

Also, is there a way to tell whether the filter will fit, without actually trying to put it on? I don't want to try it and end up stripping something, and messing up my car!

There's a code stamped on the bottom of each filter. The PH16 has "2X", and the PH8A has "2Y". I'm presuming that has something to do with the compatibility?

So basically, would the PH8A work on my car, and if so, is there really any benefit to using it?

Mr_Shiftright · September 2007

You know, if the book doesn't list it as an alternative, I wouldn't risk it.

shipo · September 2007

I have tried any number of different filters on Chrysler products since the 1960s and they ALL fit the spin on adaptor plate, the only question is whether they have clearance in the engine compartment. FWIW, I've been using the large displacement canister type on both of our Dodge Grand Caravans (one a 1998 Gen 3 and the other a 2003 Gen 4), and as the 3.8 in our vans is a cousin to your 2.7, I have absolutely no doubt that they'll all fit.

A few link to pictures of a few pictures of some of the filters that I've tried (note, I refuse to use Fram filters so you won't see them in the photos):

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1202/1347538474_9b4b68dbde_o.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1284/1347539118_86ccb3c5c6_o.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1039/1346649005_25b7f5d63f_o.jpg

FWIW, the above pictures are NOT 56K friendly, so if you (or anyone else for that matter) want links to smaller sizes, just let me know. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

andre1969 · September 2007

Just for curiosity's sake, I went over to my grandma's and dug in the garage (she's just across the street, so it's not like I had to make a special trip!) I found a Fram PH43, and it has a "2Y" stamped on the botom, same as the long PH8A. And I know the PH43 and PH8A will screw on in the same applications, so I'm guessing the "2Y" means they'll both fit the same applications, but wit the "2X", I'd better not chance it.

The thread patterns look the same, but I know that's a hard thing to eyeball. I also found an old oil filter over there from when I had my '86 Monte Carlo 305, and I could tell its thread pattern was a bit different.

Oh, I also found an old Purolator PER-1 filter, their equivalent to the Fram PH8A. It's still in its cardboard/plastic wrap. I'm guessing it's from 1972, because looking on the back, where it says what cars it fits on, it only goes up to 1972. It actually lists the 1958-61 DeSoto, too.

Shipo, why don't you like Fram filters? I've heard other people mention that, too. Is there something inherently evil/cheap/bad about them?

**Edit: I just looked up Fram's specs for various Mopar engines. And it does look like the 3.2/3.5 and 3.3/3.8, as well as the old Mitsu 3.0 V-6 all call for the same filter as the 2.7...the PH16. So if an oversized cannister fits a Grand Caravan 3.8, it should fit a 2.7 Intrepid.

On the Intrepid 2.7, the filter upside down, right ahead of the suspension, so it's real easy to get to. I can change it without jacking the car up. It's sort of recessed a bit with the oil pan surrounding it. Something longer, like a PH8A, might stick out a bit and be more at risk for scraping/puncturing. Not sure though...I'd have to look again.

I remember years ago, putting the extra long filter on my '68 Dart. A combination of a collapsing engine mount and bent exhaust system actually brought the filter into contact with the exhaust. The exhaust burned/rubbed a hole in the filter, causing a leak and a lot of smoke. I guess I'm lucky the danged thing didn't catch on fire! :surprise:

shipo · September 2007

"Shipo, why don't you like Fram filters? I've heard other people mention that, too. Is there something inherently evil/cheap/bad about them?"

There have been a number of studies that show that some of the Fram oil filters are decidedly inferior to even elcheapo off brand filters and WAY less effective than OEMs specify for filters. By the same token, some of their filters seem to test out okay, but at a premium price. Given all of the noise of their advertising, I find the company to be hypocritical to say the least and as such won't patronize them, even if some of their products are acceptable.

Regarding your intrepid, I highly suspect that even the longest of the long canister filters (i.e. the Mobil 1) won't hang lower on your car than say your oil pan or other components, and as such it would be HIGHLY unlikely for the filter to get damaged from normal driving conditions. ;-)

FWIW, the Motorcraft FL-1A seems to be the best bargain for a high quality filter, and easily one of the most widely available.

Best Regards,
Shipo

isellhondas · September 2007

If you cut a Fram filter in half and look at it's construction compared to an OEM or a Purolater filter, you would never use one. They are built to sell cheap in the discount stores.

On the other hand, they are capable of making top quality filters for OEM manufacturers and they do. These just aren't sold many places compared to the more common orange ones.

shipo · September 2007

"On the other hand, they are capable of making top quality filters for OEM manufacturers and they do. These just aren't sold many places compared to the more common orange ones."

Yeah, I'm aware of that and I try and avoid all products manufactured by Fram (regardless of label) because I don't like their business practices.

Best Regards,
Shipo

isellhondas · September 2007

I know what you mean.

Fram is a HUGE filter builder. They cater to the Wal-Mart crowd who only care about price but they can make top quality filters too and the do!

isellhondas · September 2007

Being Norwegian explains everthing.

Only a Norwegian would drive a car over 200 miles with an oil light on!

If you look at my last name on my profile yoy will see how I can get away with saying that. :P

isellhondas · September 2007

Of course, you are correct on all points.

I just can't see taking a car to Wal Mart for ANYTHING!

I was in a Wal-Mart once and that was enough!

andre1969 · September 2007

So you can do want you want, but while the PH8A may be a larger filter, the internals may not be the same as a PH16. Or they could be and the one is just a larger filter. But I wouldn't suggest it. I would recomend an extended performance filer (like the MobileOne), that is actually designed for the specific engine...

In light of what I've been hearing here, I think I'm just going to stick it out with the stock-size oil filter. Although I think I'm going to switch to a brand other than Fram!

Y'know, that Fram 3387 number sounds familiar, too. Strange how numbers can stick in your head. I wonder if my '80 Malibu, which had a 229 V-6, used a 3387? Or I wonder if it's the Buick 231? I had an '82 Cutlass with that engine, and my Dad has an '03 Regal. I've changed his oil a couple times.

I have a feeling that number stamped on the bottom of the filter (where it screws up) is some kind of compatibility code. And since it's different on the PH16 from the PH43/PH8A, I'm going to just take that as a sign to leave well enough alone, and not experiment!

andre1969 · September 2007

speaking of oil change fiascos, I did have one with my Intrepid back in March. I changed its oil in my grandmother's driveway. All the tools and such are over there, and there's a spot at the edge of her driveway where if I pull to it, it makes it easier to get under the front of the car.

I changed the oil and filter without incident, I thought. Until I started the car up and moved it back over to my side of the street. It was making kind of a squishing, almost obscene noise. I thought it was the power steering pump at first. When I got it back over to my side, I noticed a trail of oil all the way from where I had changed it in Grandma's yard. It turns out the gasket had come off the old filter and stuck to the underside of the car! So when I put the new filter on, I got the double gasket effect!

I've heard that can happen but I swear I have NEVER seen that happen ANY time I've ever changed the oil! If nothing else it taught me to pay more attention next time I change the oil and filter.

jlflemmons · September 2007

I was taught to always check both the old filter coming off and the mating surface on the engine to be absolutely sure that the filter gasket was not stuck to the engine. You would be surprised how often that happens, especially with cheap aftermarket filters.

isellhondas · September 2007

Some of the old cars that used cannister filters were nasty for this especially Chevy V-8's. Everything had to be lined up just right or they would leak.

I can't really see much benefit in using a larger filter even if they do happen to fit. For those of us who change our oil pretty often, I doubt if there would be any benefit.

shipo · September 2007

"I can't really see much benefit in using a larger filter even if they do happen to fit."

Well, for those of us who believe in extended oil change intervals, the extra filter area is useful, that and the extra oil spreads your bet just a little bit more. In the case of our vans, the larger filter moves my oil capacity from five quarts to five and a half quarts, fully a ten percent increase.

Best Regards,
Shipo

isellhondas · September 2007

Well, yeah...I guess.

I just don't see it making a measurable difference. I'm not as anal about oil changes as I once was but I won't go over 4500-5000 miles so in my case I'm sure it wouldn't make much of a difference.

shipo · September 2007

Hmmm, well I cannot remember the last time I changed the oil after only five thousand miles. I typically go ten to twelve thousand miles, on an oil change, which for the rate that we drive still means every three months or so.

Best Regards,
Shipo

nandavea · September 2007

Hey thebigal, good points all. I thought about the oil plug not being in place... and the mechanic that I brought the car to who took it out (Walmart said this I had to have done at my expense) had loosened the oil plug, so that evidence was spoiled, but he said that it was covered in blue. He did not remove the oil filter, and the notches, etc. all lined up.
Here's my question to you, thebigal, since you seem to know something about their system. When two of the shop managers asked to go with me to take pictures of the car, I pointed out that they had not capped off the windshield fluid (that was part of the package). He said that their windshield fluid equipment wasn't working well that day. Does the same pressure system run all their fluid delivery systems.
We know it was Walmart's fault. I could get over 50 affidavits from family and friends that would say my daughter's engine ran great, and that she never said to them that it wasn't performing well. Only the very next day after the service two of her friends riding with her to the fair said her engine sounded terrible. The mystery still to be solved is whether it is possible for a car to go 277 miles, running roughly, on a little over 1 1/2 quarts of oil??? Remember, the cylinder where the oil enters the engine looked good, only the last two were bad and threw both rods. If there were oil in the pan, their own inspector said that it should have sprayed oil down the undercarriage, and it was perfectly clean.
I'm still open to more suggestions. I am either going to small claims court (I know someone who once taught law who would help me with court documents). Or, we were told to check with our auto insurance company and they might represent us in court.
By the way, so far they have refused to let us see the video, although they could. When we go to court we will subpoena not only the part of the video showing my daughter's car being serviced, but all videos used on all four stalls for the entire day. I saw some pretty crazy stuff going on as I waited. Thanks again to all! 0h....... My daughter is only 1/2 Norsk ;-)

isellhondas · September 2007

But I still can't believe any person could or would drive a car 277 miles with the oil light on and the engine making terrible noises. That could hurt you in court!

What kind of a car is this? That poor car had one TOUGH engine to have lasted that long!

imidazol97 · September 2007

Any noise should have been checked on right away.

An engine light means turn off motor NOW, not half a block later when it's convenient. I recall a radio mechanic talking about training his daughter when she started driving about the lights.

I am not piling on. I'm just remind others we should remind our drivers in our households about the lights and what to do. My wife drove our car home from Olive Garden with the low tire pressure light on without checking visually to see--in an ultrasafe area for stopping to check.

I kept thinking about the 266 miles. There used to be a commercial for an oil additive where they drained the motors of oil and drove the cars to see how long they'd go. of course the one where the oil had had the special additive went further.

isellhondas · September 2007

Yeah, the more I think about this one I have to think that personal responsibity has to factor in on this to at least some extent.

If I were a judge hearing this case,just based on what I've read, I don't think I would award 100% of the damages to the owner of the car. I see at least "some" shared responsibility here. But, then, I'm not a judge.

If I were REAL cynical, I could be thinking that a driver could realize the oil had been left out and with visions of a new engine being installed in my old car courtesy of Wal Mart to simply keep driving until it blew.

But, I'm not thinking that here.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2007

Yes I think a 4 cylinder car engine could go 277 miles with 1.5 qts of oil in it. It's barely enough, but it would keep the engine from seizing until it got really hot or reached high rpm. It would NEVER go 277 miles with NO oil in it, however.

andre1969 · September 2007

Yes I think a 4 cylinder car engine could go 277 miles with 1.5 qts of oil in it. It's barely enough, but it would keep the engine from seizing until it got really hot or reached high rpm. It would NEVER go 277 miles with NO oil in it, however.

I remember with my '68 Dart 318, when it got down to about 2 quarts, the oil pressure light would come on if I accelerated too fast, cornered too quickly, or braked too hard. I tried to NOT let it get down that low, but slipped up from time to time.

Just out of curiosity, how long would an engine last with no oil in it, under a no-load condition, such as idling? I'm thinking in terms of those tests they used to do for Slick 50 and such wehre they'd drain the oil and then run the engine until it siezed up.

andre1969 · September 2007

now that I think about it, would a larger filter really give you THAT much more capacity? For instance, the big PH8A/PER1 filter only looks like it's about an inch and a half longer than the stubby PH16. The filter's about 4 inches across, I guess.

Actually, doing the math, it looks like that would yield about an extra 1/3 quart capacity! That adds about 19 cubic inches more capacity. There's about 231 cubic inches in a gallon, or about 57.75 cubic inches to a quart.

I was thinking though, that a bigger advantage might be filtering capacity. If one filter is, say, 25% longer than another, wouldn't it have 25% more filtering capacity? Seems like it would also last much longer before getting clogged up, since it has much more filtering area.

Still, I've traditionally tried to change my oil every 3-4,000 miles. Although I have to admit, I think the Intrepid's gone about 7K at this point! :surprise: That may not seem bad to some of you extended-interval fans, but my Granddad actually raised me on 2K intervals, and it took me a long time to break myself of THAT habit!

Granddad probably had a good excuse, though. He worked on a farm where it was dusty, and his commute was maybe 2 miles at best. Grandmom worked at a nearby hospital that was maybe 2.5. It wasn't until the 1960's that many of the side roads around here were paved. There used to be a lot of farms in general around here. So I guess all the dust from the farms and dirt/gravel roads, plus the ultra-short commutes made it a good idea to change the oil more often.

Plus, oil technologies have improved, although I've heard that those little synthetic thingies that make multi-grade oil possible are more likely to break down and cause problems as you increase the distance from one number to the next. So a 5W30 would break down quicker than a 10W30.

isellhondas · September 2007

You know, I read in these forums, the stories of people who have their oil tested, use synthetics etc and go 10,000 miles between changes. That's fine for them but I have seen too many gunked up engines in my time.

I use conventional oil, OEM filters and try to change it around the 4000 mile mark, maybe stretching to 5000 miles.

I figure oil changes aren't expensive and I look on it is cheap insurance.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2007

When we were kids we used to go to a wrecking yard where a friend worked and drained the oil out of the cars, then put bricks on the gas pedals and ran like hell.

From placement of the brick to seizure (which came after a lot of noise and damage had already been occurring), the longest engine, as I recall, was a flathead Hudson that went 9 minutes. A VW was almost instantaneous.

Another reason why the Slick 50 ads are bogus.

shipo · September 2007

"Plus, oil technologies have improved, although I've heard that those little synthetic thingies that make multi-grade oil possible are more likely to break down and cause problems as you increase the distance from one number to the next. So a 5W30 would break down quicker than a 10W30."

Well, kinda sorta. I suppose that if you're talking about conventional oil that is true, however, fully synthetic PAO based oils are so stable they don't need any viscosity improvers (VIs) to work as multi grade oils. No VIs, no tendency to break down.

In this case, a 0W-40 is no more likely to break down than a straight weight 40 weight oil is, maybe even less so.

Best Regards,
Shipo

isellhondas · September 2007

I saw that trick done on an old flathead Studebaker.

" A lot of noise" That was an understatement!!

shipo · September 2007

"You know, I read in these forums, the stories of people who have their oil tested, use synthetics etc and go 10,000 miles between changes. That's fine for them but I have seen too many gunked up engines in my time."

Yup, me too, but not from engines running on synthetic oil. I just happened to replace the head gaskets on one of our engines that had exactly 143,625 miles on it, and had used synthetic oil on a 10,000 to 12,000 mile OCI schedule since the engine had about 15,000 miles on it. As you can see by the following pictures, not only is the engine not "gunked up", it still has the honing marks on the cylinder walls.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1262/616655435_2aecf3ffe3_o.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1418/751628521_5567e459ae_o.jpg

Best Regards,
Shipo

andre1969 · September 2007

I'm going to change the Intrepid's oil this weekend. I'll just make sure to check that oil filter gasket!

nandavea · September 2007

I'm the one who originated post. It concerns an oil change that took place at Walmart and the fact that the car (and it was a 6 cylinder) ran 277 then broke down because there was only about 1 1/2 quarts of oil... Therefore our claim is that Walmart did not fill the car with oil. Now, to level the field with some questions being raised per this post. My daughter noticed the oil light, but thought that since the oil had just been changed, the oil was overfilled and the light would go off. She's 18, this is her first car, and she doesn't know a muffler from a radiator.

Secondly, we bought this car because of its low mileage for its age 1998/78,000 miles. When we go to court there will be two groups of affidavites: One group of roughly 50+ that will say that when they were with my daughter in her car it ran swell or that they never heard my daughter complaining of the car running poorly. The second "group" will number 2. These are her two friends who road with her to the fair and said that her engine was running terribly. Then she left for Fargo, ND and her car broke down on the Interstate.

Once again, I would be very pleased if someone could give me a good explanation as to how the car could go 277 miles on very low oil. (And I DO appreciate some of you who have made some observations). Remember, the location where the oil entered the engine the cylinder looked good. It was the last two cylinders that were dry and threw rods. The best theory to date is that the engine was under-filled, ran roughly, but had enough oil spray to keep it going for 277 miles. The last two cylinders/pistons continued to overheat, however, causing the oil to burn off and finally there was not enough oil to lubricate and that's when the engine blew. Please advise... Thanks!

imidazol97 · September 2007

The variable that was not controlled was that some of the cars had been sitting a long time and the oil had drained away from the surfaces of the bearings and other places. IF the motor had been run recently those have oil left behind.

I ran a lawnmower for about 3 minutes before I recalled I had drained the oil and not refilled it the previous day. I later sold it to a coworker and last I asked a few years later he was still mowing his city lot with it. It didn't smoke after that any more than a typical 4-cycle B&S motor does.

shipo · September 2007

I've been doing oil changes for what, nearly 40 years and up until last year I'd never even seen a stuck gasket. Then one day I was swapping out the filter on one of our cars and by habit a casually glanced at the filter mount to make sure it was clean, looked away to open up an oil bottle to lube the new filter gasket and, "What the...???" I looked back at the filter mount and sure enough, there was a gasket stuck fast.

I guess you just never know when one is going to stick. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

isellhondas · September 2007

Wal-Mart may let this one go to court where their attorneys could certainly do a good job of arguing this case. Sometimes, companies will do this just to let the rest of the world know that they aren't going to just roll over everytime someone accuses them of something.

Or, they could offer to settle out of court but I doubt very much if the will offer to foot the entire bill for a new engine on a ten year old car.

I'm still predicting if it does go to court that the judge will offset it and rule a partial payment for a new engine.

I can see strong and convincing arguments either way.

andre1969 · September 2007

I've been doing oil changes for what, nearly 40 years and up until last year I'd never even seen a stuck gasket.

I'm a relative young'un, I guess, but I've been changing oil changes for about 20 years now, and this was the first time I'd ever seen a gasket come off!

Now I do remember, years ago, with my first car, a 1980 Malibu, I put a filter on too tight and it wouldn't come off. The filter wrench just crumpled it. And yeah, I knew that trick of putting oil on the gasket before putting the new filter on, so that it *shouldn't* stick. My Granddad showed me how to just hammer a screwdriver through it and use that as leverage. That doesn't always work either, though. A few years ago, the filter on my '79 New Yorker was too tight and wouldn't come off. The wrench crumpled it, and all the screwdriver did was tear it up worse. I ultimately had to just cut the thing apart, while it was on the car, until it was just the base left on. Then I started drilling on the base until it weakened enough to loosen its death grip. Probably a miracle that I didn't mess up the threads or something...

Mr_Shiftright · September 2007

I suspect a judge (or referee--he doesn't have to be a judge in Small Claims Court) might rule a 50/50 responsibility here, which, based on the facts presented, seems fair.

The red light usually goes off at around 5 lbs oil pressure, something like that, and it's really a warning of dire consequences to follow.

isellhondas · September 2007

If I were the judge based on what I have read here, that would probably be my ruling. The idea of "She thought it might be overfilled" wouldn't buy it for me.

A menancing RED LIGHT along with "terrible" sounds from the engine and not realizing something was terribly wrong?

Do we know what kind of a car this is? The cost of a replacement engine could exceed the limits of a Small Claims Court. I don't even know what those limits are but I know they vary by state.

nandavea · September 2007

As for the oil light coming on, one may not accept that because they are mechanically literate. My daughter is not. They did a study at Harvard on the power of the authority figure... I won't take time for details, but it shocked even the researchers on what people would do simply because of a statement given by a man in a white coat. They never finished it because the community made them shut it down (they were using people off the streets to do the experiment).

Now, what's my point. My daughter knew that her car had just been serviced--the old oil taken out and replaced with new oil. A mechanic had done that. In her mind it was impossible that her car could be low on oil... it could only mean that it was slightly over filled.

My daughter also purchased new tires that same day. I told her the car would drive differently. She, as I said before, is 18, this was her first car and she has had it for three months.

To their credit, Walmart discovered that she had the wrong size tire and made the correction. She was also told that the car might handle differently due to the change in tire size.

To those of us who understand something about how a car works, we would clearly differentiate between engine performance and tire performance. She didn't, and when the car (as noted by her two fiends) sounded rough, she just didn't know what to do. I wish she would have asked me about it.

As far as the engine, I couldn't wait around... she is already attending a tech school in a distant city, and I need our second car back. I realized that if we settled I could not expect a new engine from Walmart. Your right, that would be unfair. So I had the mechanic look around and he found an engine with about the same amount of miles on it... that is far.

Thanks again folks for broadening the field. David

chuckhoy · September 2007

I think small claims would be your best bet. It is a 10 year old car so it could not be worth all that much and small claims court does give an advantage to the "ordinary" citizen over a corporation. I had some experience in small claims when I had to sue a company because they were not living up to a maintenance agreement for the product. It was just me, the local manager of the company and the judge. The judge was very accommodating to me and an officer of the court tried to get the company to settle before the hearing.

My advise is to do your homework before you walk in there. The judge liked to see detailed time lines, and things like that. Go to the Attorney General's office and see if any similar complaints have been lodged against this Wal-Mart. This leads me to a funny story about what happened in my hearing...

As part of the prep work for the hearing, I went down to the Attorney General's office (very helpful) and made copies of the complaints lodged with them regarding the company I was suing. There were dozens. A few of them were for the exact reason I was suing them. The last thing I did when I was testifying was to try to submit these complaints to make a record of the poor service history they have. The Judge told me "You can't submit those because they do not pertain to your case. You can only submit them if the defendant uses thier reputation as a defense." So, I held on to them. My turn was over and the defendant had his turn. The first thing he does is tell the judge that his company has a great reputation and this has never happened before. Then the judge turns to me. Looks me straight in the eye and says:

"NOW you can submit those complaints for the record." I think he even had a slight grin on his face.

From a purely dollar standpoint it would be cheaper to give you the few thousand dollars that small claims is limited to than fly in a lawyer, have him/her spend a few days preparing the case, paying for food and dinner, etc...

isellhondas · September 2007

I'm trying very hard to be objective here. I really am.

I just can't understand how hearing horrible engine sounds could be attributed to having new tires on a car.

And (I guess)I can understand driving maybe a SHORT distance with an oil light on but 277 miles??

I can tell you are not trying to enrich yourself because of a mistake by Wal Mart and I do hope they are fair with you as it looks you are trying to be with them.

I do wish you well.

Oil change/fiascos

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