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Comments
So - what is the 'hesitation' - how about the way the transmission gear selections are programmed. Try this - driving in 'S' make a note of what the engine rpm is at 40 mph - 4000 in 2nd, 1200 in 5th. etc. Then, move the lever back to 'D' and drive normally noting as you vary your speed what gear the transmission is actually in by comparing raod speed vs. engine speed. What I think you will find is that the transmission does not downshift from let's say, 5th until the car is almost stopped, especially when 'coasting down', for example, to a traffic light or off the highway. So, as a result, the car is now moving at possibly 20 or 30 mph and it is still in 5th and now comes the problem - I want to accelerate! Depending on how hard I hit the accelerator, the correct gear from that speed should actually be 2nd - requiring a 3 gear downshift - this being where the transmission takes a fraction of a second longer to find the required gear - this being the now infamous hesitation.
My wife's Altima 3.5, a car with similar power and a 4 speed auto defaults to 3rd gear and won't hold on top gear at anything below about 40 - and, not coincidentally, drives with less of this 'hesitation'. So WHY?
I think the answer is obviously in how the transmission is programmed and Toyota's pursuit of that holy grail - FUEL ECONOMY. No other logical explanation - and would I trade off a few mpgs to avoid this problem - not me!
Nobody's a troll, OK? Can we please get past that?
If we've got a mad on about Toyota, then gripe about IT--instead the griping about Toyota seems to have morphed into griping about people.
Disagreeing with someone's viewpoint is one thing. That's kosher.
I don't agree there's any kind of 'design flaw' in this hesitation issue.
I honestly believe it's a 'designed in' characteristic, not a flaw at all.
I also believe all makes of DBW equipped vehicles do it to some degree, only that some owners notice it more than others.
But I'm neither evil nor lackey, any more than someone who disgrees with my opinion, so why get personal at what I or anyone else opines?
I also agree that an opportunity to get around this characteristic is now available--the controversial 'foot position adjustment'.
It works--maybe not for everyone--so why diss it? Just try it, for starters!! It just may help!!
I also disagree with the way some have approached this hesitation issue.
Simply put, starting with a preconceived conclusion that it's exclusively a design flaw is no way to do problem solving. That's just another form of unsupported finger pointing.
A cause (or solution) just might be something else--or a combination of 'something elses'--and so far this has been shown to be entirely possible, given all the various theories being talked about so far.
So maybe we can just work a little harder to keep things civil.
Remember, when any discussion gets off the rails, the first casualty is usually truth.
I absolutely agree with everything that you said. But just to add a slightly different perspective on your thoughts for discussion purposes.
I would expect that the response of a DBW system is much more immediate than a mechanical system. (electronic responses are in milli-seconds usually). Almost instantaneous if you will.
Consider that also as one's foot is moved from the tip of the accelerator pedal, up to the mid point it will take a corresponding smaller amount of movement (angular foot movement) to get the same effect on acceleration / speed (shorter lever - better control).
Also as one's foot is moved up the accelerator pedal the angle of the foot to the leg would seem to become more perpendicular, or more natural/comfortable.
Also the resistance to foot movement will be a little greater higher up on the pedal making it much easier to control foot movement.
With your toe extended beyond perpendicular and no resistance to movement (resistance allows some relaxation of muscles, foot weight is somewhat balanced against the resistive force), your foot will become fatigued and it will be more difficult to control precise foot movement.
So I believe that with a smaller foot movement from a more comfortable position that the control of foot movement will be much more steady and controlled. We are talking about very small movements here.
With age we tend to not have the same level of muscle control and even dead spots in movement as you suggest.
Now given that the avalon transmission tends to stay in higher gears as the car decelerates; then if the accelerator pedal movement to subsequently accelerate comes slowly (relatively speaking) or erratically because of very slight eradicate foot movement ("dithering" as one poster called it), it is easy for me to imagine that the control unit might initially have some trouble deciphering which gear to put the transmission into.
Anyway just meandering thoughts to consider and contemplate.
Regards
zekeman1
I observed a X/C bicycle with a clips in foot pedals that mates to a clips on a type tennis shoes (locks foot to pedal)-
Install a similar designed clip onto the center of the Avy's gas pedal and market one right foot tennis shoe with corresponding clip that will lock your shoe/foot to middle of gas pedal. Selling one specially equiped tennis shoe is 1/2 the cost of a pair of shoes + shoe box can be half the size and it will take up half inventory space. Looks like we found a nitche in the market; any takers??
NWBLIZZARD
Well, let's see...
If you are going to trap your right foot into a shoe attached to the gas pedal, better be prepared to learn to brake exclusively with your left foot !!
One way to "teach" drivers to do this, could be to provide a matched Left Shoe, that will clip onto the brake pedal...
This way, you could sell TWO shoes, thus doubling income!
But, to be honest, I'd rather keep my right foot free...
Keep thinking, though. Somehow, you may be on the path to something that WILL work!
havalongavalon
That may or may not be true. I have been accused as such. And I don't work for Toyota.
But there are also, without a doubt, a few people floating around in these forums with obvious anti-Toyota agendas. Not you Al, but they are here. I am not suggesting they work for the competition, perhaps they are just die hard loyalists of competing brands. Who knows? I guess it is just the nature of internet forums.
I have seen facts get distorted on both sides, sometimes unintentionally, and sometimes not. When that happens, it is only fair that opposing views are given a chance to be spoken without personal attacks ensuing.
How many people brake with their left foot as opposed to performing double duty with the right foot?
NW BLIZZARD
As a vendor to the supplier of the GP assembly used in the current Camry and Avalon , I've been peripherally involved in the development of same. Including, a few years back, of a dummy spring assembly to provide feedback and feel ( problem solved another way). The attention to detail of my customer and Toyota has been almost too much for a vendor to stand. I been in meetings where a slight variation in the surface finish on pedal assembly has been discussed ( How many here have ever seen their gas pedal?).
Jumping from my '03 into an '06 presented no noticable difference in GP operation.
If people with small feet have a problem with the new setup it looks like the human factors engineers at Toyota simply effed up the geometry and probably looking to fix it as we speak.
Doug
A drawback might be that if anything rolled behind the bottom hinge it could get stuck there and block the pedal motion... Probably a reason why pedals nowadays are hinged at the top?
Exactly, it's an ergonomic issue more than anything else. It should be simple to lower the position of the pedal "sweet spot" in future Avalons. But I'm curious to see what kind of fix they may offer to current '05-'06 Avalon owners. It will probably require replacing the entire gas pedal assembly (not just the pedal itself) with a longer one.
havalongavalon
I use my left foot to hold the car at a stoplight so my right foot can rest on the gas pedal so when the light turns green, the left foot releases the break as I simultaneously give the car gas with my right foot, eliminating the time lag present when conventionally moving your right foot from the brake to the gas. Net result: I'm almost always the first to pull away from a light without resorting to "flooring it".
I almost never apply the brake with my left foot while the car is moving - it feels alien and counter-intuitive despite the obvious logic behind using both feet. Having my left foot planted on the dead pedal or planted elsewhere on the left side of the floor gives the right foot more leverage (and eases lower back stress) than having to use both feet without being able to plant one foot for support. I suppose if one is taught to use both feet when learning to drive then using two feet to drive may seem natural. But to me it's as natural as speaking Esperanto (a language I do not speak).
Regards,
Deanie
With the increasing frequency of red-light running, being quick off the mark may be a questionable practice.
The now-common appearance of red-light cameras emphasizes the need for caution on the part of those who have the green.
Here I will reply to your comments and then explain more carefully what I think needs fixing, and why.
First, IMHO there's nothing to fix because there's nothing broken as you have shown in your posts;
Nothing is 'broken' indeed; but in this case the contemplated 'fix' is about improving or correcting a gas pedal design that may not work correctly for at least some drivers.
...second I think anyone that buys a car adjusts to where the pedals are in the new car because they won't be in the same place as they were in their previous car.
In my initial analysis I had thought so myself, and I believe that re-positioning the foot to press higher on the pedal may solve the 'hesitation' problem for a good number of drivers who were pressing on the bottom of the gas pedal; but this remedy may not work for "anyone".
I now think that small drivers with small feet cannot fully adjust to the 05-06 Avalon gas pedal, purely for ergonomic reasons: they fall outside the range of leg and foot dimensions that are correctly served by this pedal design.
And here comes (Gasp!) a True Confession: MY WIFE is a Toe driver, and she really can't help it...!
At 5'2" and women's shoe size 5, I believe that my wife should fall within the normal range of Avalon drivers. But in fact, she can only reach the middle of the gas pedal by lifting her lower leg to an angle where her heel is no longer supported on the floor.
In several of size 5 shoes, with heels of various heights, I measured the distance from the back edge of the heel to the sole under the ball of the foot. This distance, of course, gets shorter for shoes with higher heels (first described by Pithagoras) and this is compounded for fashion shoes with high heels angled steeply forward.
This distance varied between 6" for flat-heeled shoes, to only 4" for high-heeled shoes.
The bottom edge of the Avalon gas pedal is 4" up from the floor and the "sweet spot" on the gas pedal is 6" above the floor.
So my wife has two options: either she lifts her lower leg to a more horizontal angle to reach the target "sweet spot" on the gas pedal, or she keeps her heel resting on the floor but then makes contact only on the lowest part of the gas pedal.
Both of these options have drawbacks. If she lifts her leg this leads to muscle fatigue, making it harder to control the pressure on the pedal. It's OK to lift your leg to press occasionally on the brake pedal, but not on the gas pedal. As we have discussed in this forum, uneven input to the gas pedal may be a cause for occasional engine surges and uneven shifting. If she presses on the bottom of the gas pedal, this definitely can cause variability in pressure input leading to occasional engine surges and uneven shifting. Neither option is good for her.
I have tried placing a 2" spacer on the floor for the right heel to rest on, but it would have to be easily removable and I don't like the idea of it shifting around unexpectedly. Asking a female driver to always wear running shoes to drive and then switch to her high heels before stepping out of the car is not a very reasonable expectation, either.
I would like to hear from more Avalon drivers who have short legs and small feet -- do you have a similar problem and how are you are dealing with it?
havalongavalon
Sounds strange to make more than it is.
abfisch
abfisch
So far no rattles, hesitation or whatever. Runs great!! My wife's junk in the pocket of the passenger door drowns out any other noises the car may have.
I've looked through my manuals, the setup screens, and the "My Avalon" CD but can't find this. Does anyone know how to do this?
Thanks,
Tom
I don't quite fit those parameters, since I'm 6'5" and wear a size 15 shoe. I have a 2005 Limited with all the extras and have never had ANY trans "hesitation" problems and was intrigued with the "foot placement" discovery mentioned here lately.
I tested the theory by contorting my leg/ankle/foot to an uncomfortable position as to only have my toes on the bottom of the gas pedal. Son of a gun! For the first time ever, I noticed a hesitation upon acceleration sometimes. I returned my foot to my normal position (mid to high on the pedal) and the hesitation disappeared. There sure must be something to all this. Hope Toyota is listening. Thanks for all the info and help.
Hesitation also occurs when slowing then accelerating, such as when merging into traffic, or slowing for an intersection where the light turns from red to green and needing to accelerate, or when slowing for traffic prior to making a left turn, then when there is a gap, trying to accelerate. These are also situations when hesitaiton has been experienced.
I think it is interesting that those who do not experience hesitation can make it happen when "toe driving". I would like to hear from more people who experience the problem and whether they are toe drivers or not and if so, what happens if they lift their foot to mid-pedal.
Honestly, I am having trouble believing this is THE problem. Could there have been such an oversight for what would be a fairly large cross section of drivers? Why aren't all small-footed drivers having this problem? Is this just a Toyota issue? I have seen a few cases of hesitation in other makes -- do they have fewer small-footed drivers than Toyota? So many unanswered questions.
Hi just_me, thank you for your comments. I have to agree with scoti1, though, that episodes of engine surges or erratic shifting can also happen when toe-driving while cruising at highway speeds if you accelerate abruptly. Toe-driving makes it harder to control the gas pedal at any speed, I think.
Take care,
havalongavalon
Thank you joedbob for this confirmation! Also my thanks to other posters who recently were able to confirm the finding that position on the pedal seems to matter.
havalongavalon
Hi geoshill,
Yes, this can certainly work, except it is not convenient if you alternate often between two drivers with different foot sizes. I find that raising the floor is not comfortable for me, unfortunately.
havalongavalon
Start the engine but leave it in Park. Turn off the radio and fan so you can hear the engine. Watch your tachometer. Now try to HOLD THE RPM for 10 seconds or so at CONSTANT RPM and then SMOOTHY increase the engine speed by even increments of 500 RPM, holding for several seconds at each RPM level: 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000.
Repeat this test after changing the place where you push on the pedal. Go back & forth a few times between stepping on the "sweet spot" half-way up the gas pedal, and stepping on the bottom of the pedal.
You should observe a very noticeable difference in the ease with which you can maintain any given RPM and, especially, in SMOOTHLY INCREASING the engine speed to the next target RPM level when your foot is more vertical and stepping higher on the pedal, compared to "toe-driving" on the bottom of the pedal.
Pressing on the bottom of the pedal is more sensitive and erratic and this position can make it more difficult not to overshoot the target RPM levels.
havalongavalon
Me too. That must be the reason why my small feet have not experienced the hesitation others have.
Like to hear from any of Toyota's or Suppliers design engrs out there who would know what were the design considerations/attributes used in the design of the Avy's gas pedal?
NWBLIZZARD