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Hah! Yeah if BMW and Mercedes didnt exist. Most of the Japanese even beat Audi. Residual value primarily comes from 2 very important factors: reliability which determines future ownership costs, and name plate prestige, the latter of which seems to count more than the former. BMW and Mercedes especially get their awesome residual values from the name plate. Lexus gets theirs from industry leading reliability. Audi has neither. You can pick up a fairly recent Audi A8 for pocket change.
A Saab salesman once told me that Saabs were made in Germany "right along with Mercedes and BMW". Imagine my reaction to this.
The best one yet was back in the day when my Aunt was looking at some Biucks. I asked about the Reatta convertible they had on the floor. The salesman told me that it an exclusive model that competed with the Mercedes SL and Porsche 911. I couldn't stop laughing.
M
I think the Germans reaction to competition from Japan, or lack of a reaction, is a natural response to being in the lead. They arent used to Japan even being on the radar. They've grown fat, happy, complacent that they rule the world.
Things are very different when you're say Infiniti, out for German blood. Infiniti salesmen (at least in my experience) are VERY aware of the latest German models, and would be more than happy to share with you performance figures and how Infiniti knocks them on their fat, happy, very surprised tails. (According to the Infiniti salesman of course).
I just meant car salesman in general, not the whole company and certainly not the Germany vs. Japan issue.
The car companies themselves I'm sure are very much aware of their competition. The problem is that in Europe none of the Japanese luxury car makers are represented in decent numbers or sold at all for the Germans to even notice them.
Nissan/Infiniti is pushing boundaries on all fronts, but I worry that they won't be able to keep up such an assult, all new models will all age at the same time too.
Also, I believe this new M will be a hit, but the next Q is what I'm waiting to see.
M
You and me both. Frankly Im not sure why Nissan is even bothering. If I were them, I would focus more on the cars that need attention: Maxima, Quest, Murano, etc. The Q has been a big fat failure for 15 years running. They tried to do sport with the original, that didnt work. They tried to fight the LS400 with the '97 version, that didnt work either. They went in a new direction with the current model, and again, didnt work. Whats left?
Face it, without the success of the LS, Lexus would just be known as a company that makes a nice tarted up Camry (ES) and some nice SUVs.
Infiniti is trying to reinvent themselves from a company with rebadged Nissans to also putting the driver first. So.. why make a full size car? Infiniti sales are still going to be primarily in the US for many years to come, and the new S-class and new LS4xx will have the full size market pretty much carved up to themselves. Getting any sales in that market will be significantly harder than sales for the new M. Infiniti would be much better off, in my opinion, with the Skyline GT-R as their flagship, rather than what will almost inevitably be another "me too" boat from them that will flop.
A successful G was the first step, and a successful M is the second step. Good job by Infiniti on those cars. A successful Q (or successor) is the final step, in terms of sedans. Yes, they have failed for 15 years (although the very first Q was semi-successful), but I think they should keep trying.
3, 5, 7.
C, E, S.
A4, A6, A8.
ES/IS, GS, LS.
G, M, Q(?).
I am leaning towards the RL over the GS, but need to see the M35x in person. I'm looking for AWD sedans..
BTW, didn't even want to visit BMW, Mercedes or Audi. Very afraid on dropping $50K+ on a unreliable car. My buddy at work dropped $60K+ on a E500 4matic and his NAV display has been replaced 2 times and has numerous climate control issues. Cachet only takes you so far....
They are more similar than dissimilar.. You'd be hard-pressed to tell them apart going down the street without the grills and badges..
Personally, I'd buy whichever one seemed to "fit" me best.. They are likely to be within a couple of thousand of each other, comparably equipped, and all are likely to be very reliable..
The M and the GS can be outfitted with fewer options, if you are looking to save money that way..
regards,
kyfdx
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What is really telling is that the current Q45 got a facelift for 2005 and there has been absolutely no mention of it. I've seen more ads for the VW Phaeton than I have for the refreshed Q45.
M
I agree with jrock and Merc1 that Infiniti needs a Qxx to shore up the brand image, but the market has been cornered by Lexus and MB that it will be almost impossible for Infiniti to make a dent. But, a sleeker designed Q, with ~400bhp V8 motor, mated to a 6-speed stick/manumatic/auto tranny, build and refinement quality of an LS, driving dynamics of a 745, and exterior looks of an S-class, then Infiniti will ascend the ladder to hang with the top dogs in the lux class. What are the odds of Infiniti being able to mesh all the great attributes of these competitors into a single car ? Almost impossible.
That's why I think the opportunity is lost, and Infiniti may forever remain 2nd tier behind the pack leaders - MB, Lexus, BMW, for quite sometime. Just mho, of course.
Wanted to get your thoughts on my experience with an Audi salesman yesterday. This guy wouldn't stop with the BMW comparisons
I can only echo Merc and Lexusguy here, to say that these people are not the source of knowledge that they often claim. Sometimes, you can get a real good one tho'. At the Infiniti shop I took my M35 test drive, the sales guy pointed at a Q45 and told me what a crappy car that was. He said nobody wanted one. He was unusually frank with me. Of course, he was on his way to delivering a G35 to a new buyer.
At the San Diego auto show in January, I asked a Lexus sales guy about the 3.5L motor scheduled to debut in Japan this year. With an air of authority and arrogance, he responded that Lexus does not have an engine of that size. I said sure, [non-permissible content removed] !
For interior I rank the the RL first, the M35x second and the Lexus last. The GS300 had the touch screen navigation and cheap looking buttons. Also I hate wood steering wheels. The RL was crisp and very clean looking inside. The M35 was a close second with the very elegant wood paneling, but I did not like the logo on the seats and the gauges which were orange or yellow.
Driving- M35x wins this. The steering was much more firm than the other two, with the Lexus and The RL feeling overboosted for my liking. The power of the M35 was also the best. The Lexus was the smoothest and softest overall. Seemless shifting and the quietest of the three. The Acura seemed to not have much power and the gear shifting was the weakest of the three being kind of clunky.
I did not test the navigation on the RL but I thought the Nav on the G35 was better than the Lexus because of the "birds eye" view in the split screen.
Overall I would rank them as M35x, RL and GS300.
I was expecting more of a distinction between these car but they all seemed to be cut of the same cloth. I wonder how many Japanese spies and double agents are working on each of the design teams. It seems remarkable that they could be so similar. As not one of them ignited any passion in me I will wait to see the new 3 series.
M
The car overall is elegant, but I'm not a big fan of ovoid, separate headlights in general. Excellent materials inside as well as tasteful yet conservative inside design, but I think the ergonomics good be better (but I may be biased towards the Japanese in this regard). Wasn't impressed at all with the stereo.
I guess my main gripe is the price. I really don't see anything compelling to command the $10k premium, other than obviously the prestige premium, and that's something I personally don't care about.
The A6 is a good sleek looking sedan, and a good value. Underpowered though. Excellent interior materials, but I'm not a big fan of the interior design.
M
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Which of these 3 cars (RL, GS, or A6) would anybody recommend?
For the 2004 model year cars you can see "initial quality" ratings (based on survey data). For longer-term reliability ratings you have to look at 2001 or so model year data.
M
M
regards,
kyfdx
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The GS300 was VERY quiet and smooth but not very powerful. Am I wrong but the trunk entrance is smaller and seems to be an issue in putting any size luggage or golf clubs, etc. Since it did not have the Nav or ML... I can not comment on those features.
BOTH the M35 and M45 had the same technology and journey packages and they were impressive.
The M45 was smooth and very powerful and it was more quiet than I expected since I had driven the M35 first.
They Ms appear to have more trunk space and equal technology to GS.
The one issue that I had was the growl/noise of the M35 when I was aggressive in acceleration. It seemed louder than you would like, almost intrusive to the interior noise level.
Do I need to drive it again or is this indeed any issue.
Other than the noise on the M35, the trunk/acceleration/handling/technology do make me lean to the M.
Any others experience that issue.
The M35 is the obvious choice unless you want more insane power, then get the M45. About the only thing I can fault Infiniti on these cars is the amount of sound-proofing. It needs to be improved. Some people do like the growl of a sweet sounding V6 or V8 tho', so that may be a positive to some, a negative to others. YMMV.
I think they like to market to an audience to an audience that likes some growl when you step on it.
To Lexus, silence is golden.
Sounds like sandbagging to me.. I expect it to be much faster than the current 525i, and faster than the old 528i..
But, like everything else... only my opinion.. Either way, won't be as fast as the M35..
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