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Hybrids in the News
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Like that article I posted a few hours ago about how all the Toyota competitors are now focusing on improving fuel economy...Toyota and Honda primarily can take credit for that... :shades:
As larsb stated competition is good for everyone, Toyota included. Absent some revolutionary breakthrough Toyota may end up adopting something akin to GM's technology on the new Tundra next year. Good for GM. Just do more.
The HCH is good and has good technology but the HAH and maybe the V6 HH are going in the wrong direction. Both save fuel but both are aimed frankly at a more well-to-do clientele and maybe dont belong in the HonYota lines.
The boldfaced phrase in your quote by whoever was the writer is just dumb. Why is there an advantage to a GM buyer who next year gets a $400 rebate or a Ford buyer who gets a $2000 rebate over a Prius buyer who likely might get a $3150 rebate.
BTW.. this quote is from some online digital rag in SE North Carolina Vacationland. I live just north of there on the Outer Banks. It's a regurgitated piece from the NYT to which I've written already questioning their sloppy thinking/'reporting'.
I was curious about that statement also. I think the NYT article made the claim that Toyota had already sold 60k vehicles and would not be eligible for the new tax credit. The credit has a fairly long life that will give all the car makers time to build either hybrids or clean diesel cars to take advantage of the credit. I'm not a big fan of most of the media unless they back up my opinion. :shades:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/13147350.htm
"With the idea of saving gas on everyones' minds these days, ZAP plans to unveil its new XEBRA(tm), one of the world's only production all-electric cars. U.S. consumers will have the first chance to order this unique four-passenger vehicle for under $10,000 as ZAP sets up distribution in the United States through its authorized dealers.
ZAP is also unveiling two new prototype "trybrid" automobiles through a partnership with Brazilian automaker OBVIO!(tm) Automotoveiculos S.P.E. Ltda., of Rio de Janeiro. ZAP is the exclusive North American distributor for the OBVIO! "trybrids," which have the ability to run on gas, electricity or alcohol. ZAP plans to make OBVIO! available to consumers through its dealer network by 2007."
Did they have to make it so......handsome challenged?
Ugly isn't the only thing that stands out in my mind, but safety. It looks rather fragile to me. If it came down to a crash duel between a ZAP and 90% of anything else on the road today, I'd bet on anything else.
Bet it would spin like a top around its rear axle if hit on the side of the front quarter panel near the headlight.
Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that they are working out the energy issues. I think they still have a ways to go.
I know that the arguement is going to be three wheels means less rolling resistance than four...
And hybrids, for all their megawatt buzz, are not the only answer—they account for just 1.3 percent of the market, since most car buyers can't afford the $4,000 to $10,000 premium to own one. The real action in fuel economy is in conventional cars.
That is 100% correct.
Gotta love it baby!!!
moparbad: That is 100% correct.
While we havent agreed on much I do agree 100% with that statement as well.
Just as 90% of the market can't afford a Lexus, Acura, Bimmer it's true that regarding the hybrids '..most car buyers can't afford the $4000 to $10000 premium to own one.' The typical car buyer is looking for a $10-12000 vehicle ( probably used ).
The First Time Buyer, young struggling couple, single teacher, pensioner on a limited income cannot afford the luxury of thniking of fuel economy differential vs hybrid premium if they have to worry about paying the car note on a $12k vehicle.
The demographic moparbad posted two weeks ago described perfectly the typical hybrid buyer; i.e. well-to-do, well educated with the disposable income to 'indulge' his/her environmental conscience. It is for now a small segment for sure.
The marketing has been directed to this group and it has been more successful than even Toyota imagined. These buyers can likely purchase any vehicle they wish but they choose to purchase a Prius, for example.
As the above-referenced quote mentions the real action though is in conventional cars.. or getting the public interested in them again. In addition increasing the FE of any big vehicle by 20-30% is just as valid as increasing the FE of a midsized auto from 28 to 48 mpg.
Interesting comparison:
A) Prius vs 4c Camry
Prius combined mpg ~ 48 mpg or 20.8 gal/1000 mi driven
Camry combined mpg ~ 28 mpg or 35.7 gal/1000 mi driven
the Prius saves 13 gal/1000 mi driven
HyHighlander vs ICE Highlander
HH combined mpg ~ 25-27 mpg or 38.5 gal/1000 mi driven
ICE H comb. mpg - 20 mpg or 50 gal/1000 mi driven
the HH saves 12-13 gal/1000 mi driven !!!
C) GMC 'Hybrid' Sierra vs ICE Sierra ( to be confirmed )
hybrid comb mpg ~ 16 mpg or 62.5 gal/1000 mi driven
ICS combined mpg ~ 14 mpg or 71.4 gal/1000 mi driven
If these ratings are accurate or if they can be combined with diesel savings then the Sierra will save at least as much or more fuel than the Prius.
The Prius ratings are sexy but only because they are so BIG . The real action is in all the other vehicles on the road.
Wow! What is next for the Prius? Anti-Virus and Firewall?
Actually, not even CLOSE to being 100% correct, at least not in the way you intended to say it, I think.
What that is is a reporter relying on OLD news and not using current trends to drive his reporting.
Sure, hybrids only make up 1.3 percent NOW but look at the increases - sold 81,000 in 2004, now almost 200,000 to be sold in 2005, and with the new tax credit for 2006, does ANYONE REALLY think that number is not going to go up a LOT AGAIN in 2006?
And what the author meant by "the real action in fuel economy is in conventional cars" is the fact that because of Hybrids and what they have done to fuel economy (i.e. driven it UP) the engineers at car makers are now having to engineer good fuel economy into conventional gasoline cars in order to compete with the hybrids.
THAT is the "real action" he was talking about. Action being "engineering action" for the engineers trying to compete with the superior Hybrids with gas only cars.
So, the the key thing to remember about this article is that HYBRIDS are the cause of all the new interest in building gasoline cars with higher fuel economy, so they can compete.
Don't misunderstand things, folks.....:D
" TOKYO - Toyota Motor Corp. will begin using a cheaper and smaller hybrid system from 2008, more than doubling production of the fuel-sipping vehicles by then to 600,000 units a year, the Asahi daily reported on Wednesday.
Japan's top auto maker is keen to spread the hybrid powertrain as the main fuel-efficient alternative to internal combustion engines to make up for initial spending on research and development and to lower high per-unit production costs.
Toyota is aiming to sell 1 million hybrid vehicles annually some time in the decade beginning in 2010.
Since rolling out the world's first gasoline-electric hybrid car in 1997, Toyota has improved the powertrain with a second-generation system it calls THS II, which powers the remodeled Prius and Lexus RX400h SUV, among others.
But the hybrid system, which allows vehicles to run on an electric motor under certain driving conditions to save fuel, still costs manufacturers -- and consumers -- a premium of thousands of dollars over regular cars.
By making the system smaller, Toyota aims to slash the premium by half and expand its use to most of its mid-sized or larger cars, the Asahi said, without citing sources."
good stuff....
"Engineers are developing adapter kits for hybrid vehicles that will increase their efficiency to 100 miles per gallon by powering them solely on electricity during short trips."
"Supervisors Zev Yaroslavsky and Mike Antonovich introduced the motion, which was approved 5-0. The motion pointed out that even though hybrid cars cost more than gas-only cars, federal research has found that hybrid drivers pay an average of $8,000 less overall after five years of ownership."
"Hybrid cars are not new to WSU. Several years ago, WSU received one of the 30 hybrid Ford Escorts donated to colleges across the nation. After a few years and with only 2,000 miles on it, the car was going to be scrapped. But rather than scrap the vehicle, Bill Clapp, WSU Department of Computer and Electrical Engineering chairman, found the car a new home."
I never knew Ford had made Hybrid Escorts.....Wonder why they made 30 and stopped?
Same reason that Chrysler canned their hybrid in 1997. The accounting departments could not see a profit in the long range. That is still in question on all but the Prius. And I question the Prius being profitable. I also question the quality of the hybrid system that costs half as much to manufacture. I suppose you are going to say they are not cutting quality? Time will tell. There are some people on Edmund's with some mighty big repair bills on Prius barely 3 years old. $1900 for a used transaxle. What did one from Toyota cost?
As far as the profitability of hybrids, can we just leave that alone? There is now way on God's Green Earth that the chairman of Ford would commit to making 250,000 hybrids a year and Toyota would say they want to build a million a year if the vehicles were not profitable. Let's just put that myth to rest forever, OK, AllRightyThen ??!!??
Gary, "smaller and less complicated" does not mean "lower quality" last time I checked. You have something that proves it does?
No, the myth is that Toyota is making a profit. Almost every car manufacturer has come out and said that hybrids are NOT profitable. They are written off as GREEN advertising. One remote statement by a Toyota exec is your total basis of argument.
"smaller and less complicated" does not mean "lower quality" last time I checked.
You are right. The part you are pushing is the cheaper. Cost cutting invariably means cutting quality. There is NO free lunch in any business. Maybe when they build all the Prii in China as they are saying by the end of this year they will cut labor costs. I would say that is the only way they can cut the cost of the hybrid system in half. Do you think that will make the cost to the consumer any less? My money says it will not. You will not see Toyota lowering the MSRP on the Prius.
If Toyota achieves its goal then hybrids will make dollars and sense independent of other considerations(environment) in about three years hence!
OLD NEWS. That was in the days of 50,000 hybrids sold in the USA. As they get more popular, production prices go DOWN and margin goes UP. Get up to date:
"Ford recently said it was planning to boost global production of fuel-sipping hybrid vehicles tenfold to 250,000 annually by 2010. More than half of the company's vehicles are expected to have hybrid capability by then. "There is no concern on meeting that commitment," Samardzich said."
from:
http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/09/Autos/ford_hybrid_plans/
So even if Ford only loses $100 per vehicle, that's 25 million bucks lost. Seems like a lot of wasted energy and time for just a "green marketing" scam. Puh-Leeze. If they want to to spend $25 million on advertising, that's a lot less effort than making hybrid cars.
And you seem to ignore the fact that almos EVERY SINGLE car builder who sells cars in the USA is working on a hybrid car or SUV or truck for the US market.
Do you think all those carmakers are just idiots, looking to lose money? That's ludicrious to think they would do that, just for what, so they can "say they care?" That's ridiculous.
PS If any of you own car company stocks, I would contact the board immediately and tell them that you don't want your dividends being dumped into "losing money" hybrids. See what they tell you.
And as far as "one successful hybrid" I guess it depends on what your definition of "success" really is.
I'd say the "hybrid movement" as a whole is vastly successful, since it is now forcing other carmakers to build hybrids to compete and MORE IMPORTANTLY than that is the fact that the car companies are now pouring engineering power into making all vehicle engines more fuel efficient.
Even if ZERO hybrids are sold in 2006-2015, the movement has had incredible success as of TODAY.
I did not say they would build them. Your article says that. You can bet if they are not selling they will not continue building them. They cannot get enough parts to build 250k hybrids without finding new manufacturers.
Ford suspects it may be getting squeezed out by its Japanese rivals. With the fall launch of the gas-electric Mercury Mariner, Ford is tripling its hybrid SUV lineup over three years. But its transmission supplier, Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., can boost deliveries by only 20 percent, to 24,000 transmissions annually.
In one breath you say that the car makers will build x number of hybrids. In the next they cannot meet demand due to lack of PARTS. Then you say they will get the parts manufacturers to sell the PARTS cheaper. It is not logical that a company that has orders that cannot be filled, will be beat down in price. Your millions of hybrids on the market is not likely.
I am glad to see a resurgence in research toward more efficient cars. I wonder if it will be like the last one in the 1980s. Honda got up to 50 MPG and the price of oil fell and with it the desire to build or sell FE cars. In fact the whole 1990s was just the opposite. Bigger and mo betta gas guzzlers. It could happen again. People like big luxury cars & SUVs. The oil companies want to sell gas. Match made in heaven.
This resurgence in research thankfully is different in that now, cars are going to be "full featured" *AND* get good gas mileage.
Back then, the Chevy Chevette "plastic transmission" boxy little death traps were the norm for high MPG cars, while now and in the future, cars will be normal sized, extra safe, have all the power you need, AND are going to be fuel efficient.
Once again, all in thanks to the Hybrids which started the MPG push.
If you believe that, I have a bridge for sale.
High fuel prices are the one and only factor that will cause consumer to choose mpg over horsepower!
Fuel efficient smaller vehicles have been available since the 70's and they have been as popular as bird flu in the US.
I wish it was different.
Thanks for describing my wife's 83 MB300D!
Who needs hybrids when diesels were available bout a century ago!
I think the mileage champ for gas was the Honda CRX. One of the most fun cars to drive ever built. The modern Civic does not hold a candle to the CRX for fun for the money. Unless you think gadgets make a car fun.
The last oil crisis brought out diesels by almost every maker. They were not near what they are today. If the high fuel prices hold look for a good assortment of modern diesel cars. VW was the mileage champs back then with 50 MPG cars & small PU trucks. Many of them still on the road 25 years later. ULSD and biodiesel the practical answer to fuel economy.
No reason to get rid of a perfectly good 22 year old car because the government failed to control fuel formula. I wonder how many 2003 hybrids will be on the road in 2025?
What my point of saying "once again, all in thanks to the Hybrids which started the MPG push" was referring to is the article I posted which said that the car companies are now putting extra engineering effort into making ALL engines more fuel efficient.
THAT is the result of the hybrids gaining market share and attention.
Wake up and smell reality.
Those automakers fighting hybrids are the same ones that define "profit" as an obscene amount of money gained from the sale of each individual vehicle with no concern about remaining competitive. That just plain is not realistic anymore. The business model has changed. They are in denial.
Reality is that automaker survival is based on earning only modest profits now. So to end up with large quantities of cash like in the past, production volume & sales has to be significantly increased.
This is the identical transformation that the computer industry faced a number of years ago. With respect to personal computers, that pretty much killed IBM and allowed HP to go from startup to major player. We will be seeing fundamental shifts of power just like that in the automotive industry.
Change is coming. Get used to it.
JOHN
Once again.
You are in denial. Thank the $3 gallon gasoline. High energy costs are the reason that automakers are marketing and engineering increased mpg. 1% market share of hybrids is not the motivation. Scared consumers buying a low profit Malibu i/o a cash cow Tahoe is the motivation.
I did an informal survey at work and the managers don't care about hybrids and the labor is not even aware of them for the most part.
You are giving too much credit to the hype.
http://www.autointell-news.com/News-2002/April-2002/April-2002-4/April-24-02-p3.htm
"Toyota Worldwide Hybrid Sales Top 100,000 Mark, April 24,2002"
Total Hybrid Electric Passenger Vehicle Sales 2000-2004
2000: 9,367
2001: 20,287
2002: 35,961
2003: 47,525
2004: 83,153
2005 as of end of October: 173,237
That's an undeniably incredible growth chart, and is why "higher fuel efficiency" is on the mind of consumers AND car engineers.
http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200511160186.html
The next step goes to the heart of the market with a comfortable friend, the Camry, being converted to HSD. As per your link, with a significantly lower cost the HSD might be added to every vehicle. Who would turn down more power and better FE.
In the last FIVE years there is no success in decreasing the component costs that are reflected in the sales price, so why do you think the Camry is going to change this in one year?
The common perception in America seems to be that these vehicles are a novelty, and in some cases an eyesore, especially with unknown models like the Toyota Prius and the Honda Insight. But consumers seem more willing to buy vehicles that look familiar
Ninety-seven percent of respondents recognize "hybrid" vehicle terminology, 78 percent of respondents would consider buying a hybrid vehicle. If true, these stats are impressive.
Its called free market pricing. You are equating cost savings with price reductions. Why? If you can sell every vehicle you make at the price you 'suggest' why reduce it? It's what the Big 3 cannot do, find the price at which the public will buy - without discounts.
It is extraordinarily good marketing.
This statement isn't really true - costs have gone down considerably. It's pricing which has remained stable or risen. For the first three years (and still true to some degree) hybrids were sold at a loss in spite of their $2,000-$3,000 premium over similar sized conventional models. Production costs have gone down, but the manufacturers are finally starting to amortize their previous losses, so don't look for an immediate favorable pricing adjustment - especially while demand is still hysterically peaked.
(The above from my "Making Hay While the Sun Shines" text on economics on sale at booksellers everywhere - get your copy today!)