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I am sure that the Jetta TDI could tow effectively and reasonably safely. Maybe VW has just given the towing equipment option to the aftermarket suppliers. This would be one huge advantage over the hybrids, if one needed the ability to tow. Towing of course is a safety risk, but one that many otherwise risk averse and responsible operators take.
Most drivers get lower than EPA est mpg with hybrids, some much lower. Many drivers of standard gas and diesel drive vehicles can get well over the EPA est mpg on the highway, even without the more extreme of the "hypermiling" techniques.
Real fuel efficiency is based on weight of fuel and not volume (BSFC is weight of fuel consumed / time / engine power output) even though liquid fuels are, for convenience, dispensed by volume. Diesel fuel is about 15% denser than gasoline so you should divide diesel mpg by 1.15 to adjust the true mpg of a diesel to a weight basis for comparison with gasoline mpg.
Diesel fuel and gasoline have the same energy content on a weight basis. So it would be entirely justified for diesel fuel to be priced at 15% more per gallon than gasoline. Current diesel engines are, of course, more efficient than current gasoline engines at converting a given amount of heat to work.
http://www.drivingethanol.org/ethanol_in_vehicles/e-diesel.aspx
http://www.e85safety.com/index.php?/archives/18-E-Diesel-Ethanol-and-diesel-prod- uces-eDiesel-flex-fuel.html
http://www.newgenholdings.com/companyoverview.html
Indeed given the various blendings there is a 7-10% mpg LOSS
..."There is a light increase in operating costs due to a slight (7-10%) mileage decreases with E-diesel use."...
SLIGHT loss!!???? You are vilifying the 2009 VW Jetta because it gets a little less mpg even as it has increased the power 52% !!!!
The "slight loss" for me would be - minus 5 mpg!!! Oems rack their engineering brains for even a 1 mpg gain.
The additional problem is diesel fuel pumps do NOT function well with residual H20. Ethanol attracts water!? To replace a ruined fuel pump due to steady exposure to H20 laden ethanol is on the order of 1200-1500 dollars.
I say give the choice!! I for one would NOT opt for it.
You can disagree all you want...welcome to America. But I bought my TDI in '00 and have a pretty good grasp of the market. Who would want a 50mpg car when diesel was CHEAPER than gas?? Anybody that drove a lot. It was still much nicer, smoother and quieter (except maybe at idle) than any econo-box that MIGHT get 35-40mpg....
I considered selling my TDI in 2004 when the Passat TDI's hit the market. The resale on my TDI was about $1,000 higher than a comparable 1.8T gasser....which was the same price when I bought new. So even when diesels marekt wasn't as crazy as it has been the last couple years, they were still experiencing better resale than a gas model. Yes I should have bought an '04 TDI and sold it last year for what I paid for it....likely won't happen again though.
And I would have to disagree with you. I got mine in 2003. I could go back to the records to tell you how much diesel was then, but in truth why would you care? Another is, I would have bought a diesel in 1987 IF it was available in this country and RUG was .74 cents per gal. Again the issue was then and is still now: the lack of choice.
Who want to get a diesel car that smell like hell, and generate noise and vibration at highway speed?? I drove diesel all my life in Europe, but still when you go back and drive gasoline cars are a lot smoother, lot quieter than diesel ones.
Just to put things into some sort of perspective regarding your diesel experience in Europe - when did you leave Europe, and what vintage were the vehicles you drove there?
http://www.biomatnet.org/secure/Other/F447.htm
I guess the question really is; WHY would you want to waste perfectly good moonshine to supplement diesel when there are so many other alternatives, such as rapeseed, rendered fats and algae and it is not limited to 10%.
Leave the alcohol for drinking and use the others for fuel, i.e. bio-diesel.
I have heard from August to November. Larson VW Tacoma, WA told me they had pre sold all the TDI Jetta Wagons due in August, then he said something about November, but by that time I had lost interest as they are asking about $5000 over MSRP.
These people are the ones who will pay a hefty markup over MSRP for the TDI.
If you are patient, and are disciplined, you will save maybe 20% over and above what they're overpaying for the first batch of TDIs.
That 20% assumes simply that you pay MSRP, rather than the 5k markup some dealers are asking for.
If I'm even remotely correct, that 20% will easily become closer to 25% if you get a TDI closer to invoice, assuming you're willing to wait, which I honestly believe will happen (maybe more, when gas prices drop, and Honda/Acura bring their proven diesel to the U.S. in 2009).
So, if it's worth an extra savings of $8000, you should wait.
$8000 is a lot of diesel.
Not true in 2001 when I lived in Ohio. I bought a 2000 Jetta TDI GLS 5speed in 2000 for $21k. I put 35k on it in 12 months, then sold it for $17k. New ones at the time were going $1k-2k over sticker. I put the car on autotrader.com and had people contacting me about it all over the country. An engineer from Michigan bought it to replace his Dodge Ram that he was commuting 100miles a day in.
As far as the TDI, it ran much better than my BIL's identical 4cyl gas GLS, the TDI was much quieter on the highway. I'd buy another in a heart beat.
A man was airlifted to hospital after he blew up his garage attempting to make biodiesel
By Laura Clout
Last Updated: 8:30PM BST 27 Jul 2008
The chemical explosion in Middleton Cheney, Northamptonshire, left the man with burns to his face, arms and torso.
Fire crews rescued the man using specialist breathing gear, after they were called to reports of a chemical fire just after 3pm on Saturday.
A spokesman for Oxfordshire County Council Fire and Rescue Service urged people to take "extreme caution" if attempting such chemical mixtures in their own home.
Hang on they will have high quality biodiesel from algae soon. No risk to your life.
Welcome to the Forum.....
Honda reliability with 51 mpg diesel engine - oh, and it's rumored to be a mere $850 more than the gasoline Accord.
Competition is gooooood. :shades:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/advice/motoring/hammond/2008/07/18/honda-accord-controll- - ing-a-jumbo-jet-would-be-easier-89520-20652973/
Also, they plan on selling as many as people will buy, and with Honda's legendary production capabilities, that should mean NO supply issues.
I think that VW will have a real lead on Honda with diesel cars. Honda had to build a special factory in the UK to build diesel engines before they could sell any cars in Britain. I have not seen any sales figures. They are not in the top 10 in the EU. Neither is Toyota. VW is the big dog in Europe. If they market the diesels right in the USA they will have a gigantic jump on the other automakers. They seem to have overcome the reliability issues over the last few years. If the dealers can control their greed on diesel sales they could have a great run ahead of them. What other car can you safely enjoy driving out on the highway that is capable of 50 MPG?
The big difference is VW has the Jetta diesel on the ground here in the USA. They are available for test driving and ordering. We don't even know if Honda will offer anything but the TSX diesel here. Or even that is questionable. I would give a Pilot diesel a test drive if they show up here before I buy another diesel SUV. That is doubtful as BMW and Mercedes will be in CA long before the Pilot diesel.
The market is VW's to lose. I wish them the best.
VW's really are very technical. Even VW trained mechanics at dealers, throw parts at it to try and correct things. So you can imagine a normal mechanics take on VW's which they do NOT specialize in. So if VW engineer's TDI's so the less technically asute mechanic can do the repairs, would make it more competitive.
One deviation/hassle/caveat get a (VW) mechanic that KNOWS or specializes in TDI's.
I am having ZERO issues with a 109,000 miles VW TDI. In truth the goals are a min of 500,000 miles to 1,000,000 miles. So far I have done the required 100,000 mile TB/WP change. The Honda's id due @ 105,000 miles (in 35,000 miles).
In 36,000 miles (now out of warranty), the Civic has been in the shop to have both visors replaced. The originals split due to summertime heat. A rear shock failed, leaking fluid, which was replaced under warranty. The belt tensioner failed, which ripped up the belt. Fortunately, I was close enough to a Honda dealer to limp into their service garage just as the belt came apart, while making a horrendous noise. I am sure the noise alone surprised many customers visiting the lot. They just couldn't believe a fairly new Honda would make that kind of noise. It was repaired under a technical service bulletin. The sealing surface on the moonroof has to be lubricated constantly to keep it from squeaking. I am afraid that if I forget to lubricate it, it is going to fail soon. Fortunately, it gets loud enough even with the moonroof visor closed to remind me to lubricate it.
I also have a friend that has a new Honda S2000. It has already been in the shop for a fuel system problem.
I cannot complain too much. My Civic averages 38 mpg in all-around driving, but the build quality is not definitely there. I am wondering what else is going to fail now that the warranty is gone. I am glad that it doesn't seem to difficult to work on it.
I can't wait to get the TDI because the build quality seems to be pretty good. I also have talked with several people that have owned earlier TDI models. None complained of reliability issues.
I'm not anti VW. I almost bought an 06 TDI, The sales Mgr. wouldn't discuss service costs, so I called the backshop: Belt reolacement - $795.00. 100K service - $1200. I'd love to have a Passat to drive (55,000 miles a year) but I can't justify it because of the documented reliability &durability problems. They're making progress; but they're a long, long way from matching. Honda & toyota.
VW has come a long ways since the Rabbit and Dasher days. Of course if you are talking about the old Bug, it is more repairable than any Honda on the road for a lot less money. I think if you look through the AutoTrader and eBay you will find a lot more old VWs still running from the late 70s and early 80s than Hondas. They were a disaster when I bought my new 1978 Accord. I would have bought a Dasher Diesel Wagon if there was not a years waiting list to get one.
As ruking has pointed out working on any car today is highly technical. I know the VW store in Portland that I bought my Passat TDI from had just lost their top technician to another dealer. He wanted more than the $150k he was making at the VW Buick dealership. I too lament the days that tearing into my car was much simpler. I do not think any car today is meant by the manufacturer to go for 20+ years as in the "Good old days". We live in a throwaway society. Honda is just as much a part of that grand plan as all the other automakers.
From 1976 to 1981 eBay has 6 total Hondas listed and 46 VWs. So longevity is not the realm that Honda dwells in. I would still take a 1978 Dasher diesel over a Honda Accord. In fact how many Hondas from 1979 and before can you find that are over $10,000? There are a bunch of VWs. Sounds to me like the VWs are "infinitely repairable". While Hondas just rust into oblivion.
For those that live in the rust belts of America the VW Jetta TDI has the best rust warranty in the biz. The only ones that fantasize are those that believe in the tooth fairy and a world without diesel engines. Not in any of our lifetimes.
They are leagues apart. I've never heard more or read more horror stories, nor known more people personally, with issues, than those who own VWs.
And I'm considering buying a VW !!! I'm doing so knowing it may well turn out to be a huge mistake, and am prepared to sell it once the warranty is up if it is.
I'll agree on average, the Honda is likely more reliabile. But look at consumer reports, JD Powers etc. The difference between the most reliable vehicles and the least reliable vehicles is within a couple problems over 3 years. Big deal.
Quality? Depends on what you're talking about. Generally I'd say this goes to VW by quite a margin. My '00 Jetta would give an '07 Civic a run for its money in terms of materials, build quality, etc.
Durability? I dunno, my experience with Honda is they're a bit fragile. I ran the snot out of my TDI and never had a mechanical issue to speak of. I did break the glove box and heated mirror knob. Of course Honda wasn't putting heated mirrors on their civics back in '00 so I guess what it doesn't have...can't break!
My Odyssey has had far more repairs in 36k miles than my Jetta did in 180k. Does that mean Hondas are junk? No way, but I've never bought in that these reliability numbers amount to serious differences. Read the Honda forums and it would appear the only way you can get ridiculous mileage is to maintain the living crap out of them? Do the Honda manuals call for 3k mile oil changes or 15k mile tranny fluid changes? No, but I'm amazed (no....flabbergasted) at the maintenance routines many of these life-long Honda fans seem to feel is prudent if you really want the car to last. I guess that's why you see Chevys with a million miles in the news and the guy always says he maintained the thing like crazy.... I run the living snot out of most of my vehicles and maintain them according to the manual. So far my vote for what can take abuse is Toyota and VW. So far the Odyssey has been pretty fragile.
I am neither.
Quit it, I cannot stop laughing. You would drive a car that has rattles, noisy at speed and has marginal brakes?
I test drove a Yaris. It was noisy by my standards making it a no way purchase. The little POC econoboxes being sold to save a little gas are crazy. When you can buy a solid, great handling car that gets great mileage, money should be the only factor.
I understand if you cannot afford the VW Jetta TDI. Then go for a little POC Hondas. I am not at all impressed with our Pastor's 07 Honda Civic. I make every excuse to drive our 1990 LS400 or Sequoia when we all go someplace. I am not into sardine can transportation.
You keep mentioning the window switches on the VW Jetta. My understanding is VW repaired those at no cost long after the warranty was up. As far as timing belts, my 2007 Toyota Sequoia requires a belt change at 90K I believe it is. Not that I will ever put 90k on the vehicle.
If you buy a VW Jetta with the gas engine it makes little sense to me. They do not get great mileage. I guess you still get the great driving experience for less money. It never occurred to me to own one.
Welcome to the Volkswagen website. We appreciate your comments and they
have been noted.
Volkswagen dealerships are empowered to create policies and procedures
suitable for their business needs, therefore, pricing, availability, and
policies may vary. We offer the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Prices
as such. The final, negotiated price is ultimately determined between
the customer and Volkswagen dealer.
Also spoke with a VW dealer in Bremerton, WA. All of the 2009 allotment of TDI’s have been pre sold or spoken for.
Maybe this time next year.
If you want the bare truth on reliability, go to the 2008 Consumer Reports Buying Guide, which is based on over a quarter of a million surveys, and look at the difference between ALL COMPONENTS of Honda versus Volkswagen.
They break it down by engine, transmission, suspension, trim, heating and cooling systems, fuel systems, etc., etc.
Honda is all top notch, even 6 and 7 year old Hondas! Volkswagen quality disintegrates after the first year!!! Even 5 year old Hondas are far more reliable than one year old VWs!!!
I mean, please, be even somewhat realistic. Like I said, I am considering purchasing a VW, because they have more character than Honda, but I also know it's a truly risky proposition given VWs inability to reign in their quality control issues. It's not just electrical problems, not by a long stretch.
www.myvwlemon.com :lemon:
I for one would NEVER buy a car recommended by CR on purpose. Their recommendations are based on surveys of their subscription holders. Get the picture? Who subscribes to CR? Just those people that like their reports. Mostly Japanese car buyers. Honda had a good run in the 1990s. They are still living off that reputation. They have not done as well the last several years. You like Honda buy em. That is what they are here for. I personally am not considering it.
I am not trying to say that VW has some kind of stellar record for reliability. I am saying if you have driven a VW then a Honda you know why some folks like the VW better. They feel solid on the road. They are quiet and they stop VERY well. I loved driving my VW Passat TDI Wagon. I some times wonder if I should have kept it. Greed for profit makes me do crazy things. If it was 3 inches higher from the ground I would have kept it. I just like a higher vehicle for getting in and out of and not worrying about driving off a curb.
HONDA sell more cars in USA than VW
I guess that means that Toyota, GM and Ford are all better than Honda as they sell more vehicles. VW sells more than BMW, Porsche and MB, so what is your point?
I don't think that biodiesel will be as cheap as fossil diesel until Oil supplies start to diminish. It is an alternative for the future.
I am not trying to say that VW has some kind of stellar record for reliability. I am saying if you have driven a VW then a Honda you know why some folks like the VW better. They feel solid on the road. They are quiet and they stop VERY well. I loved driving my VW Passat TDI Wagon. I some times wonder if I should have kept it. Greed for profit makes me do crazy things. If it was 3 inches higher from the ground I would have kept it. I just like a higher vehicle for getting in and out of and not worrying about driving off a curb.
I am considering a VW because I AGREE WITH YOU - VW's drive better than Honda's. They're more solid, teutonic and quieter.
But there is no way in hades I believe that VW is even close to Honda in terms of trouble free, reliable ownership experience. Honda is far more reliable. And Consumer Reports IS a solid foundation of reliability information, IMO.
Like I said, is there a chance that a person can get a problematic Honda, while another gets a trouble-free VW? Sure. But statistically speaking, the opposite is much, much, much more likely.
There is nothing I hate worse than problems with a car - especially repeated problems. It saps any confidence one has in their vehicle, and sucks the life out of the ownership experience more than anything else.