Can you agree that almost every vehicle made is "badge engineered" by your definition?
And I did forget about the full size trucks-GMC/Chevrolet. This is the area where I think GM could do so much better. Make them look significantly different.
Answer is they are selling like mad to real customers all are going to sales-shortest turnaround time at GM and well below industry average even after 1 year they are niche product/halo vehicles Yes, it was the first for both Pontiac and Saturn of new exciting products to come Yes it gained Miata sales and blew them away What about the other products? quality is there no supply problems and did not stall out of the gate.
Of course it is the same GM symbol. Has not changed since forever. And I was also pissed they were putting in the emblem and still not sure what it has done for GM.
As you know there is no such thing as "free maintenance". the buyer pays for it. However the dealers would love it since they have a garunteed income, the only problem is the money comes from GM. And with the bumper to bumper warranty the dealer would see little profit from the customers, just out of GM's pocket. GM may do this but since there are no other companies doing this (is BMW the only one?) there is little pressure to do so.
The above would probably add $500 to the price of a new car.
Extending BtoB another year or two is also something they could do but again would add another $500 to the MSRP.
And the powertrain warranty for another 5 years would probably add another $500 to the MSRP.
All the numbers above are estimates but I could see an additional $1500 added to the price of the car. Wow, that is a lot of money and if you are a normal buyer of a new car and only keep for 4-5 years (80% of buyers sell before 5 years) a bunch of cost I will never use. Makes the GM product very uncompetitive.
Yes they may get a few sales due to the appearance of GM standing strongly behind their product but a whole bunch more will walk because of non competitive pricing.
I like the lil' Emblem on the side. What is so wrong with it ? I don't get it. Every one knows it's a GM, vehicle for god sakes. Do you want them to pretend it's not ?
I respect your opinion but dude it put money back in your pocket and not just a few hundred dollars. A warranty like Hyundai, that is transferrable with "free maintainence" would sky rocket residuals for leases making them more affordable and if a customer buys and trades early he/she won't lose their shirt on selling it out right.
Rocky
P.S. The customer pre-pays for the warranty not GM, as they can pass on the cost to the customer.
I also do too. I'd even like to have it stamped on the seat belt buckles again but not in that hot metal that would burn your hand if the sun hit it for hours. :surprise:
A warranty like Hyundai, that is transferrable with "free maintainence" would sky rocket residuals for leases making them more affordable and if a customer buys and trades early he/she won't lose their shirt on selling it out right.
Rocky
P.S. The customer pre-pays for the warranty not GM, as they can pass on the cost to the customer.
If true every one would offer. My whole point was that passing on the costs to the buyer raises the price and puts you higher than the competition and therefore loss in sales.
Pretty much. Again '62, I mostly deal with the BIW in my profession, maybe you just dealt with the interiors, colors and such while you were at GM. I deal with the entire platform, drivetrain, pick-up points, the nuts/bolts and manufacturing. That's what is so great about my job; I not only get to design the parts, I build them too. And the tools and that build the parts. Comes in handy when I R/R components on my own and friends vehicles. So really, in my eyes, I see them as all the same.
Selling like mad where - certainly not in my neck of the woods, must be in yours. that's good they are getting in/out the door that fast Agree, thought I stated that No, not the new exciting products to come line. That may be able to be said about Saturn, but what the heck was/is so exciting about the G5? Really? Blew Miata away, hmmmmm, interesting?! Personally I'd still rather have the MX5. Again, I ask that of you? The cars, light trucks, the bread & butter vehicles. C'mon you know what I meant. I was then and now am being serious, no jokes. Initial is there I agree, but what about long term, which is what I'm most concerned with I know, which is good
Sky/Solstice still have almost the shortest turn around time at the dealers and still outsell the MX5. Most seem to want the GM ones. They are a niche product like the MX5 and will not be everywhere.
Nothing really exciting about the G5 but it is selling very well. The G6 is a nice vehicle and is selling decently. Not a world class interior but a great looker. the G8 will be nice. Ask the Austrailian guys.
Saturn products? Aura car of the year. Outlook a wonder ful vehicle. the new Astra whatever from europe is a great vehicle at its price point. Sky is great. Saturn has a great lineup now.
the Saturn lineup has improved, great is stretching it considering they still have the Ion, Vue and Relay on their lots. Also remember that they once sold over 200k S-series, now they sell over 200k vehicles total and they have 4-5 cars.
It's going to take some time for people to forget the L-series, Ion and Relay and return to the Saturn lots. I'm not convinced the Outlook will enjoy the success GM expects. Very nice vehicle but are people ready to spend $29k for a glorified Saturn minivan when they still have visions of the Relay. I don't know. Subaru ran into this same problem as they elevated their prices. They are struggling right now.
Saturn still needs to change people's perception of the company. Years of neglect can't be replaced by a couple of good cars. More advertising will help.
Hopefully when you were learning you learned what not to do
But in all serious, I do think that GM is improving; I don't really see anything earth-shattering, but the cars are getting better. The only problem is that competitive line keeps moving and until they have consistent product that advances the line, instead of just "close but not quite", they will still be in a reactive mode.
This just echoes a great deal of GM's problems. People have long memories of "failures" and won't return just because there are new cars that are promoted as better. It can take years just to persuade someone to take another look at Saturn, let only any GM product; even longer to get them to actually buy one. Especially if their replacement was/is superior in many areas.
Not to down play Chevrolet's "all things for all people" role at GM, Chevy will get more than it's share of much improved new product. But it will SATURN & CADILLAC that will return product credibility to GM and what remains of the domestic car business.
Sad to say, PONTIAC may have passed it's point of relevance as a motor division and what ever product gaps might remain would easily be filled By Saturn and Chevy. Lutz's one great failure may have been his not recognizing that fact. The G6 did not fit the pontiac mold and Pontiac did'nt need a GTO, they needed a TRANS AM. if the G8 fails, Pontiac might follow OLDSMOBILE. I hope not. Perhaps the G8 and other RWD, high performance models can save Pontiac, we'll see.
The new CTS shows that cadillac's products are mellowing and maturing nicely. The new Opel influnced Saturn product are some of the most exciting and credible GM products in many a year. If you hav not driven that Saturn AURA XR, you are in for a shock and a real treat. I think it is the best mids-size car you can buy in the American market, period.
Then there is BUICK. Buick's newest products are really nice cars. Smooth riding, quiet, well made, solid, secure and I think, very good looking in a conservative manner. I have no ideas what to do with Buick but I belive they deserve attention to more clearly identify their place in the sun.
All in all, I believe Bob lutz deserves kudos for what he has wrought at GM and he should continue to serve where he is.
"Then there is BUICK. Buick's newest products are really nice cars. Smooth riding, quiet, well made, solid, secure and I think, very good looking in a conservative manner. I have no ideas what to do with Buick but I belive they deserve attention to more clearly identify their place in the sun."
I just don't know if Buick can stay alive in the US I mean alot of Buicks future will be told will on how the Enclave sells. NOw, I know GM has 6,000 pre-orders for the Enclave but how will the Enclave sell in the long run once supply meets demand of this vehicle? See the trouble I have with Buick is are they gonna only 3 sell models(Enclave, LaCrosee, and Lucrene) and is that gonna be it or does Gm have more product/vehicles coming out for Buick after the Enclave? If GM is only gonna have 3 models for Buick to sell than Buick is gonna have a tough hill to climb(sales wise)to be a player in the US.
"All in all, I believe Bob lutz deserves kudos for what he has wrought at GM and he should continue to serve where he is."
I don't think will shrink as much as you might think. I think the transition period we are looking at from FWD to RWD will have a negative affect at first but when Buick, gets all their ducks lined up they could return back to normal and sell in higher volumes. Of course those volumes won't be as high as they were in the past but they will be more profitable per unit IMHO if a wrench isn't thrown into the plans.
What RWD? Ok maybe the Lucerne because there is no longer a large FWD platform but the Enclave and LaCrosse will remain FWD (hey, just like Lexus) and I also believe volume of the three main models will go up but never hit the huge volumes of the past. BUT still profitable.
The Velite, will be a 2010 RWD Sedan built on the ZETA, according to Motor Trend, who got a leak. I naturally would assume they need the RWD sedan for the high volume to make a niche 2-door hardtop convertible cost effective. I expect it to be built then or the following year. This is the prediction if the the insider is correct. The Velite, sedan isn't official from GM, but came from a reliable leak. The Convertible wasn't mentioned but is a logical assumption by me.
I know that a new LaCrosse is coming based on the Eps 2. Enclave is here soon. Now what the 3rth/4th model/s are is the question.
Not a large FWD car because there is no platform for it. I forsee one/two models based on zeta. Whether it is called Lucerne/park Avenue/Velite/whatever does not really matter.
I hope it is a larger 4 door sedan called Lucerne and a 5 passenger 4 door or 2 door convertible called Velite.
Well pal I have been a subscriber to Motor Trend off and on since I was a teenager and began buying them off the news stand at the age of 8 or 9. I would say they are 75-80% accurate on their "leaks" and those won't happen on Velite Convertibles "irnmdn" :P
Just bringing the topic back to the top to see what happens.
In my book there's no longer any doubt that ol' Bob is doing what they brought him in to do. The only question is if they did it in time and I'm beginning to think the answer is yes.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
3 years earlier would have been even better Coulda made sure the LaCrosse and Lucerne were a bit more styled. Both have high quality interiors but a bit understated.
Also could have had better interiors in the Solstice. While it was the first car he really could do something with he had not "kicked" the GM "system" into a different mode of acting.
"DETROIT -- Bob Lutz, the former Chrysler Corp. president who was hired at age 69 to lead a product renaissance at General Motors, is retiring at the end of the year.
Lutz, 76, is GM's vice chairman of global product development. In a statement, the company said Lutz will become vice chairman and senior adviser April 1. Lutz will continue to report to CEO Rick Wagoner...
GM said its global powertrain chief, Tom Stephens, will replace Lutz as vice chairman of global product development. Stephens, 60, will report to COO Fritz Henderson. Stephens is currently executive vice president of global powertrain and global quality. In his new assignment, Stephens will maintain responsibility for global quality..."
Lutz, who turns 77 on Thursday, Feb. 12.
For purposes of this discussion, then, the question now becomes, did Bob Lutz make the grade? I'd say that although GM would have almost certainly had to file for bankruptcy without the recent government "loan," that Bob Lutz did about as well as anyone could have been expected to do under the circumstances. The headwinds he faced included a stubbornly embedded corporate culture that strongly resisted change; the UAW, which is also highly resistant to change; a relatively limited budget, due to GM's weakened financial condition; too many brands, given GM's reduced market share; damaged brands, as Lutz eloquently once referred to Buick and Pontiac; and a bloated dealer network that's protected by state laws.
Did he do everything brilliantly? Well, even if he did a good job overall, which I beleive he did, that would be an exaggeration. For example, he held up introduction of the LaCrosse, which was the replacement for the Century and Regal, for about a year, because he didn't like the design. He ordered modifications to the design which was developed before he arrived at GM, but the current LaCrosse has never sold well. Another example is that, until about a year ago, he didn't believe in the viability of hybrids. Eventually, he became a strong backer for the Volt, but did his influence delay hybrid development within GM?
By the way, I saw the redesigned 2010 LaCrosse at the Washington Auto Show, and it looks very sharp. I think it has what it takes to succeed in its segment, if potential customers will even bother to consider a Buick again.
GM should take Vauxhall,Opel, and Saturn and consolidate the three different divisions. they should all sell the same product under the same brand name in different markets. Opel should become the surviving moniker/brand and the cost of the different brands is dramatically slashed.
This same principle should be applied to Chevrolet and GMC, they both sell the same product lines to similar core demographics but have different brands and dealership networks. Chevrolet and GMC should merge with Chevrolet being the surviving franchise.
Hummer and SAAB should be grouped together and sold to am emerging automaker looking for a foothold in several markets. With a little investment both Hummer and SAAB can become showpeice brands.
I personally would save Pontiac as its lineup does not overlap and caters to a sportier segment than any of GM'S other brands. I would keep Pontiac at least for the midterm and consider taking the brand international if GM's fortunes improve, if the company still didnt reach profitability the brand most likely would have to be axed.
The above suggestions would cost way less than discontinuing a brand, that would involve dealer lawsuits and hefty costs of anywhere to $2-$3 billion as seen when oldsmobile was discontinued in the late 90's.
Selling SAAB/Hummer
Consolidating Saturn/Vauxhall/ Opel into just the Opel Brand
Merging Chevrolet/GMC into Chevrolet
7 brands will be whittled down to two brands. clearer marketing and definition can be discovered and synergies will arise. the company will be on a solid footing with a more manageable company, poised for future growth. If this plan is not followed and GM decides to close brands and severely mismanage their divestment we might not see the company survive another three years.
Although Bob Lutz had announced his retirement for the end of this year, apparently he has bee asked to stay longer, to help with GM's emergence from bankruptcy. This should answer the question of whether he's made the grade.
Comments
And I did forget about the full size trucks-GMC/Chevrolet. This is the area where I think GM could do so much better. Make them look significantly different.
all are going to sales-shortest turnaround time at GM and well below industry average even after 1 year
they are niche product/halo vehicles
Yes, it was the first for both Pontiac and Saturn of new exciting products to come
Yes it gained Miata sales and blew them away
What about the other products?
quality is there
no supply problems and did not stall out of the gate.
The above would probably add $500 to the price of a new car.
Extending BtoB another year or two is also something they could do but again would add another $500 to the MSRP.
And the powertrain warranty for another 5 years would probably add another $500 to the MSRP.
All the numbers above are estimates but I could see an additional $1500 added to the price of the car. Wow, that is a lot of money and if you are a normal buyer of a new car and only keep for 4-5 years (80% of buyers sell before 5 years) a bunch of cost I will never use. Makes the GM product very uncompetitive.
Yes they may get a few sales due to the appearance of GM standing strongly behind their product but a whole bunch more will walk because of non competitive pricing.
Rocky
Rocky
I respect your opinion but dude it put money back in your pocket and not just a few hundred dollars. A warranty like Hyundai, that is transferrable with "free maintainence" would sky rocket residuals for leases making them more affordable and if a customer buys and trades early he/she won't lose their shirt on selling it out right.
Rocky
P.S. The customer pre-pays for the warranty not GM, as they can pass on the cost to the customer.
Rocky
Rocky
Really? You mean you don't already have GM branded into your skin?
Rocky
P.S. The customer pre-pays for the warranty not GM, as they can pass on the cost to the customer.
If true every one would offer. My whole point was that passing on the costs to the buyer raises the price and puts you higher than the competition and therefore loss in sales.
But lets stop now!!! Talk about Lutz!!
that's good they are getting in/out the door that fast
Agree, thought I stated that
No, not the new exciting products to come line. That may be able to be said about Saturn, but what the heck was/is so exciting about the G5?
Really? Blew Miata away, hmmmmm, interesting?! Personally I'd still rather have the MX5.
Again, I ask that of you? The cars, light trucks, the bread & butter vehicles. C'mon you know what I meant. I was then and now am being serious, no jokes.
Initial is there I agree, but what about long term, which is what I'm most concerned with
I know, which is good
Nothing really exciting about the G5 but it is selling very well. The G6 is a nice vehicle and is selling decently. Not a world class interior but a great looker. the G8 will be nice. Ask the Austrailian guys.
Saturn products? Aura car of the year. Outlook a wonder ful vehicle. the new Astra whatever from europe is a great vehicle at its price point. Sky is great. Saturn has a great lineup now.
It's going to take some time for people to forget the L-series, Ion and Relay and return to the Saturn lots. I'm not convinced the Outlook will enjoy the success GM expects. Very nice vehicle but are people ready to spend $29k for a glorified Saturn minivan when they still have visions of the Relay. I don't know. Subaru ran into this same problem as they elevated their prices. They are struggling right now.
Saturn still needs to change people's perception of the company. Years of neglect can't be replaced by a couple of good cars. More advertising will help.
But in all serious, I do think that GM is improving; I don't really see anything earth-shattering, but the cars are getting better. The only problem is that competitive line keeps moving and until they have consistent product that advances the line, instead of just "close but not quite", they will still be in a reactive mode.
This just echoes a great deal of GM's problems. People have long memories of "failures" and won't return just because there are new cars that are promoted as better. It can take years just to persuade someone to take another look at Saturn, let only any GM product; even longer to get them to actually buy one. Especially if their replacement was/is superior in many areas.
Rocky
Rocky
Sad to say, PONTIAC may have passed it's point of relevance as a motor division and what ever product gaps might remain would easily be filled By Saturn and Chevy. Lutz's one great failure may have been his not recognizing that fact. The G6 did not fit the pontiac mold and Pontiac did'nt need a GTO, they needed a TRANS AM. if the G8 fails, Pontiac might follow OLDSMOBILE. I hope not. Perhaps the G8 and other RWD, high performance models can save Pontiac, we'll see.
The new CTS shows that cadillac's products are mellowing and maturing nicely. The new Opel influnced Saturn product are some of the most exciting and credible GM products in many a year. If you hav not driven that Saturn AURA XR, you are in for a shock and a real treat. I think it is the best mids-size car you can buy in the American market, period.
Then there is BUICK. Buick's newest products are really nice cars. Smooth riding, quiet, well made, solid, secure and I think, very good looking in a conservative manner. I have no ideas what to do with Buick but I belive they deserve attention to more clearly identify their place in the sun.
All in all, I believe Bob lutz deserves kudos for what he has wrought at GM and he should continue to serve where he is.
Rocky
I just don't know if Buick can stay alive in the US I mean alot of Buicks future will be told will on how the Enclave sells. NOw, I know GM has 6,000 pre-orders for the Enclave but how will the Enclave sell in the long run once supply meets demand of this vehicle? See the trouble I have with Buick is are they gonna only 3 sell models(Enclave, LaCrosee, and Lucrene) and is that gonna be it or does Gm have more product/vehicles coming out for Buick after the Enclave? If GM is only gonna have 3 models for Buick to sell than Buick is gonna have a tough hill to climb(sales wise)to be a player in the US.
"All in all, I believe Bob lutz deserves kudos for what he has wrought at GM and he should continue to serve where he is."
I agree.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
-Rocky
I would add though, MT is the absolute worst for coming up with "scoops" that are not based in reality.
reliable leak. The Convertible wasn't mentioned
Hope the convertible doesn't leak :P
Not a large FWD car because there is no platform for it. I forsee one/two models based on zeta. Whether it is called Lucerne/park Avenue/Velite/whatever does not really matter.
I hope it is a larger 4 door sedan called Lucerne and a 5 passenger 4 door or 2 door convertible called Velite.
Rocky
Bob Lutz on Buick
In my book there's no longer any doubt that ol' Bob is doing what they brought him in to do. The only question is if they did it in time and I'm beginning to think the answer is yes.
Also could have had better interiors in the Solstice. While it was the first car he really could do something with he had not "kicked" the GM "system" into a different mode of acting.
"DETROIT -- Bob Lutz, the former Chrysler Corp. president who was hired at age 69 to lead a product renaissance at General Motors, is retiring at the end of the year.
Lutz, 76, is GM's vice chairman of global product development. In a statement, the company said Lutz will become vice chairman and senior adviser April 1. Lutz will continue to report to CEO Rick Wagoner...
GM said its global powertrain chief, Tom Stephens, will replace Lutz as vice chairman of global product development. Stephens, 60, will report to COO Fritz Henderson. Stephens is currently executive vice president of global powertrain and global quality. In his new assignment, Stephens will maintain responsibility for global quality..."
Lutz, who turns 77 on Thursday, Feb. 12.
For purposes of this discussion, then, the question now becomes, did Bob Lutz make the grade? I'd say that although GM would have almost certainly had to file for bankruptcy without the recent government "loan," that Bob Lutz did about as well as anyone could have been expected to do under the circumstances. The headwinds he faced included a stubbornly embedded corporate culture that strongly resisted change; the UAW, which is also highly resistant to change; a relatively limited budget, due to GM's weakened financial condition; too many brands, given GM's reduced market share; damaged brands, as Lutz eloquently once referred to Buick and Pontiac; and a bloated dealer network that's protected by state laws.
Did he do everything brilliantly? Well, even if he did a good job overall, which I beleive he did, that would be an exaggeration. For example, he held up introduction of the LaCrosse, which was the replacement for the Century and Regal, for about a year, because he didn't like the design. He ordered modifications to the design which was developed before he arrived at GM, but the current LaCrosse has never sold well. Another example is that, until about a year ago, he didn't believe in the viability of hybrids. Eventually, he became a strong backer for the Volt, but did his influence delay hybrid development within GM?
By the way, I saw the redesigned 2010 LaCrosse at the Washington Auto Show, and it looks very sharp. I think it has what it takes to succeed in its segment, if potential customers will even bother to consider a Buick again.
This same principle should be applied to Chevrolet and GMC, they both sell the same product lines to similar core demographics but have different brands and dealership networks. Chevrolet and GMC should merge with Chevrolet being the surviving franchise.
Hummer and SAAB should be grouped together and sold to am emerging automaker looking for a foothold in several markets. With a little investment both Hummer and SAAB can become showpeice brands.
I personally would save Pontiac as its lineup does not overlap and caters to a sportier segment than any of GM'S other brands. I would keep Pontiac at least for the midterm and consider taking the brand international if GM's fortunes improve, if the company still didnt reach profitability the brand most likely would have to be axed.
The above suggestions would cost way less than discontinuing a brand, that would involve dealer lawsuits and hefty costs of anywhere to $2-$3 billion as seen when oldsmobile was discontinued in the late 90's.
Selling SAAB/Hummer
Consolidating Saturn/Vauxhall/ Opel into just the Opel Brand
Merging Chevrolet/GMC into Chevrolet
7 brands will be whittled down to two brands. clearer marketing and definition can be discovered and synergies will arise. the company will be on a solid footing with a more manageable company, poised for future growth. If this plan is not followed and GM decides to close brands and severely mismanage their divestment we might not see the company survive another three years.