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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Thanks, van
The Accord EX V6 got 89 points.
The Camry XLE V6 got 87 points.
For reference, CR's highest rated sedan is the Infiniti M35, at 97 points.
FYI,
The Camry V6 was tested at 7.1s, 0-60.
The Accord V6 was tested at 7.3s, 0-60.
This difference is a bit smaller that what we've been seeing elsewhere (i.e. Edmunds test).
To my knowledge, the car magazines torque brake in their tests, something that the average driver will never do. CR just stomps on the gas and goes.
-Loren
I suppose doing that while holding a cell phone would be pretty dangerous, though.
I'm not certain of this but I think it's a concession to the Insurance Industry. Without a 'recognized' key the vehicle can't be stolen unless a hook is put underneath it. I believe that certain insurance companies are offering discounts for this system since it is so good in avoiding theft.
If however you lose/damage/destroy your two master keys then you can be liable for an entire new set and CPU and programming of all of the above. It could amount to as much as $2000.
DO NOT lose the two master keys!!! But the Insurance companies love them.
it is probably worth it to get a spare key made when you buy a car new.
My '91 Chrysler had passive disabling. Just use the power lock button to lock the car (remote wasn't available on that car until '92) and the system was engaged. This also happened if the power were cut (cut wires, dead battery, etc.). I had a dead battery two years ago & the garage guy came to my house to get the car started. We had to go through several steps to get the car to start, even though he was supplying plenty of juice to crank the engine.
The power door lock with passive disabling device cost $125 back in '91. Even adjusted for inflation, I think that's better than $200 to $400 for a key or $2K for a whole system.
The insurance companies/industry really don't love or hate the security systems. They have a base rate for a make & model and then discount that rate for security systems. There's no +/- on the balance sheet to the insurance companies for the security systems. If a statistical difference is noted in the loss experience between "no security" and "yes security" compared to a company's rate structure, the discount for security systems will change (more discount or less discount depending upon the experience).
It is the public who should love security systems because they lower their insurance costs. However, at a couple hundred bucks per key, the insurance savings is wiped out for several years by one key.
My preference is for the immobilizer to be separate from the special key, as in a power lock feature (remote or otherwise).
Knock on wood, I've never lost a car key. I've never not known where it is; I keep my car keys with my office and house keys and I have them at all times.
There is a mechanical key on one of the key fobs, btw. It will open the car, and of course you don't need a key to start it.
What exactly did Consumer test in the August issue? Did they re-test the Accord? Their numerical ratings are a snapshot in time...if they test a car in 1997 and give it a 91, it doesn't mean that in 2007 that same car with the 91 from 1997 is better than a car that gets in 89 10 years later.
The new Camry V6 is faster than the Accord V6. The Accord 4 cyl is faster than the Camry V6. And my Hybrid Camry is right in the middle--about where Sonata and American V6's are.
They retested the Accord.
"The new Camry V6 is faster than the Accord V6. The Accord 4 cyl is faster than the Camry V6. And my Hybrid Camry is right in the middle--about where Sonata and American V6's are."
The Sonata V6 is equally as fast as the Accord V6.
You didn't really mean to say the Accord I4 is faster than the Camry V6, did you?
Can the Camry Hybrid go 0-60 in 6.6 seconds? That's how quick the Sonata V6 is, as tested by C/D. Don't know about the American V6s, but I remember reading a test of a G6 with a beefy V6 and it was pretty quick.
I've never lost a car key either. My wife has, though--the entire keychain including the remote. More than once. They are probably the same place as all the missing socks.
Halving warranty costs in three years? They got to be pleased with that. Hopefully the relatively new Sonata will continue this trend.
I'll have to take a look at the current CR...
Wow, C&D really got a rocket Sonata...I remember seeing an Edmunds 0-60 time in the low 8 seconds. Edmunds always seems to run cars slower to 60, I remember reading something like this, which I turned up in a quick syndicated review..."Hyundai officials say the V6 will turn 0-60 miles per hour times of about 7.5 seconds, ..."
The 3.9 G6 (and Aura) are as quick as the Accord V6, but the standard 3.5L V6's in those cars and the Malibu are not. My other car is a Malibu Maxx, I have no doubt the Camry Hybrid would beat it in a track race.
Anyway, point being that the Camry Hybrid performance is equal to a lower-tech V6, and better than a normal 4 cyl. The C&D test times for the Camry Hybrid (7.7 sec) and the Ford Fusion (7.4) are fairly equal--same for the last generation Camry V6 (7.6). And, of course, gas mileage is not even close, and right now, the tax credit eats up the cost of the hybrid. As for the V6's, there is no question that the Camry V6 is faster than its competition.
Perusing this particular forum, which I have never really done, is opening my eyes to the, shall we say, voracity of feelings that Sonata owners apparently have. I shall have to watch myself or fear the wrath!
I did look at the Sonata briefly, when I was looking at V6 sedans. It was very impressive for the money. I was more impressed with the Accord V6 at the time so I didn't really pursue it. Then, I discovered that I needed a hybrid for HOV access, so that was that.
This is the reason they sale a lot in America.
I own a 2003 Camry. I won't say it is fun to drive but it is trouble free
Camry trouble free?? better get caught up on the latest..
Also, the reliability issue was dead about 5 years ago....
I passed on reacting to that the first time I read it, but the reliability concept is gone. All cars are made about as well as others. You may find dealers slipping in better service or doing what should be recalls as repair-it-when-in-the-shop-for-other-thiings so the customer never knows there was a repair.
A friend just bought a Corolla out of stereotype. We'll see how long the honeymoon lasts compared to other cars she could have bought. She never has owned up to how much the dealer packed the price for the privilege of letting her buy a prized Corolla... grin.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Hopefully you don't have to "fear the wrath" from proponents of any particular car or brand. But it helps to have an open attitude, and not feel "attacked" if someone disagrees with you or posts data that contrasts with something you said, in a civil manner.
I think the Camry hybrid is a great choice for someone needing a mid-sized sedan with the power of a V6 (some V6s anyway). I prefer the hybrids such as the Prius (technically a mid-sized car also) that optimize fuel economy even at the expense of performance, but I can appreciate the Camry for what it offers.
The reliabilty issue is a thorny one. I've owned nothing but American cars all my life...my wife and I even have GM cards that we've been accruing on.
But you know what? For right now anyway, I'm done. Our cars have all been well engineered and trouble free for the first year or two, and then everything starts falling apart. I love our Malibu Maxx for instance, but the interior is not holding up well, pieces of plastic are falling apart, its on its third set or rotors (in 20,000 miles) and they have been resurfaced 4 times. In stop and go traffic, they constantly warp. Its all been warranty repairs, but...
My '02 Intrigue I just traded had $3400 worth of warranty work done in the last 6 months. My wife's previous car, an Alero was just out of warranty and lost its power steering system. Even at 20k miles, (and 3 years, 3 months), GM wouldn't fix it and it cost us well over $2000 out of pocket.
Did I have bad luck? Probably. Do some people have good luck? Sure. But the durability for plastic, for instance, doesn't change.
So, I'm going to try a Toyota now and see the difference. A comparable equipped Impala would have cost me $2k less, but I'm going to make some of that up in fuel economy and tax credits. The 3.5L Impala is no faster than the Camry Hybrid, either.
________________________________________________________________
Wow i really can't wait to see a real comparo between a Passat, Camry, Accord(next generation), Sonata, Fusion, 07 Altima, Fusion/Milan (3.5), G6/Aura/Malibu, Sebring/Avenger, and Galant (is anything missing)!! You know like the early edmunds comparison with like 11 cars. The results will be soo random and having everyone going bananas :P !! Hopefully not in a wild cut neck way !
If they're smart as I think they are, they are trying to halve the warranty costs yet again in the next 3 years.
Something's working on the 06 Sonata. I'm hearing that resale values are holding up well.
I would much rather see comparo's between cars in the same price range. Break them up into say $3K or $4k increments and see what you get for your money. It makes no sense to compare by size, because one can cost 2x or 3x more than other cars the same size. After all, people shop by price first, then break things down by size, quality, features etc.
I actually like the look of that car, though I hope small children, looking out the back of their car, as they travel down the road, won't imagine they are being pursued by a giant Gillette razor. Heard the front described as looking like those razor blades, but I did not realize there is actually a Fusion brand of razors.
It is so long since we have seen much in the way of chrome, it is a welcomed second coming. Please stop there however, and don't bring back the fins. Recall the two bullets on the front of the GM cars? Where those cars a registered weapon, or what ?
I had a '58 Caddy with the optional power windows. The windshield wipers were vacuum powered...nail the gas and the vacuum dropped, stalling the wipers. But those fins! Loved 'em on the Caddy & my '71 Volvo. On the Caddy, the left tail light group was lifted upward to get to the gas cap. But the '59 Caddy was a huge leap.
Electric powered windshield wipers and an engine size increase to 390 CID and 300-325 HP, and the Ultimate in automotive fins.
I think I would just avoid the cars
The immobilize systems are a great idea, that is way past due. Some of these cars are often stolen. If you live in a high crime area, it's something you want your car to have.
http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=2893
I actually like the grill, though.
-Loren
-Loren
Basically, what has happened is that the criminal has already one. They have you paying more, being inconvenienced, and everyone paranoid. At which point you have a loss already.
I can see the value in the contraption. You have a valid point, no doubt. But the cost should be not higher than $30 or so.
Those keys are just too expensive.
Why not do as they did in the old west; string-up the horse thieves. That would slow the trend of stolen cars.
-Loren
I have lived in the same town all my life (43 years). 20 years ago, I could leave my keys inside my car overnight, without fear of it being stolen. I would not think of trying that now. Crime is spreading out more and more. I am certainly not going to move, to avoid getting my car stolen. The immobilizer system is something that is (unfortunately) needed in this day and age.
Why not do as they did in the old west; string-up the horse thieves. That would slow the trend of stolen cars.
Great concept, IMO, but I don't think it's going to happen.
van
According to CR, the Camry and Accord 4s still outpoint the V6s models from the best competition- which right now is the Sonata and Fusion.
IMO, aside from the obvious quality issues that some Camry V6s are experiencing, IMO, Toyota missed the boat by not having the 2.4L 158 horse 4 ready with Dual VVTi (adding to the exhaust side) for this introduction. I'd be interested to see the power and efficiency benefits this would yield... and the next Corolla is said to be offering this...
Still, its probably worth noting that this Camry 4 was the quickest CR has ever tested, and it runs nearly a second faster than the Sonata 4 (according to CR).
My personal preference for acceleration times is the C/D Street start and passing measures, especially if models are part of a comparison test.
Also, I thought it curious but indicative of the more or less even playing field of fit and finish in this class that CR spoke to misaligned panel fit in both the Accord and Camry. Commendably, the Azera had the best score for fit and finish.
Finally, I was shocked at the Lucerne's really poor stopping distances, and I beg to differ on CR's critique of the Camry center stack, I find it quite visually appealing, even at night and the SE version of the Camry is DEFINITELY more nimble than the LE/XLE, though definitely NOT a BMW.
My .02. Personally, I feel CR is doing a very good job with its car testing right now, and I'm glad the reports are more current- it doesnt seem to take them forever to test new models anymore.
~alpha
Another interesting thing is that CR shows the Accord EX V6 and Passat V6 both with 89 points. So there must be a "tiebreaker" of some kind to allow CR to give the Accord its top ranking in the Family Sedans class.
The Camry I4 is tied with the Fusion V6 in CR's point ratings; both have 77 points (as does the Zephyr). The Sonata GLS V6 is a point behind. The Accord I4 is one point ahead of the Camry. One or two points is an insignificant difference IMO. It means these cars are close enough that someone can make the decision based on personal preferences, e.g. the extra power of the V6 vs. the fuel economy of the I4.
Something else of interest: the average list price of the top six cars in CR's Family Sedan rankings is $30,110. So it is no surprise to me that they outscored cars that cost thousands less. Considering that new Sonata V6s are being picked up for around $16k + T&L, there is a big price to be paid for those extra few points. A question for each mid-sized sedan buyer to answer for himself/herself.
A Fusion SEs are listed in the SF Chronicle @ 15,900 excluding TTL. With Hyundais, there are too many rebates and factor incentives.
That is true. But consider that is a very basic Camry, with many fewer features compared to the as-tested Fusion and Sonata. If you want to compare basic cars, the 2007 Sonata SE (V6) starts at about $500 more list price than the Camry LE I4. Out the door price difference? Well, you know the story there.
As for few consumers being able to pick up a Sonata V6 for around $16k... go take a browse through the Sonata Prices Paid discussion and see what kind of prices people are getting now if they bother to do their research and negotiate. There is over $6000 in markup (over invoice) and rebates (to-consumer and to-dealer) available to all buyers right now on the V6s--none of that is "eligibility only" (that's another $1400 total possible if you qualify).
I agree, this is one point in my Fusion V6 SEL that I have to be a bit more careful than other sedans. However, this is what I mean about adding rear back-up sensors. This would be a huge safety feature, not cost much, and Ford doesn't have to spend millions for redesign..
Interesting that the Accord EX V6 score went up 3 points from their last test. I'm not sure exactly when that was (perhaps 2005?), but it means that their April New Car Issue, for instance, was a bit out of date.
I agree with the above adulation for the Accord. I still think it looks great, too. Fr whatever reason, though. I could not get comfortable in it. Believe me, I tried. I spent a long time in there messing with the seat, the steering wheel, everything. My knee angle was too sharp for me. I have long legs and I'm 6'2. The Camry fit me better.
The Lucerene they tested had the base V6, I'm sure the CXL with teh Northstar would have done better and with discounts would retail for close to the list price for the CX.
Anyway, CR does point out that the Hybrid Camry is as quick as the last generation V6 and listed Hybrid acceleration as a "high."
A Marketing consultant I know had a very good point people need to think about. The Camry/Accord are easy picks for the large scale review/mags to call a "winner". For one it appeals to the masses and makes sales for the magazines easier, along with writing easier. In the end consumers will make the choice. His point.. "Experts" are ususally 1-2 years behind consumers in what choices consumers are really making. Visit other chat rooms, consumers are realizing there are choices out there. The "Experts" are not always right for you..They weren't for me..
Cheers.. test drive its free...
If you can't trust CR, who can you trust?
Cheers.. test drive its free...
CR doesn't just test drive the cars. They TEST them. You can't determine much from a short test drive (especially with the salesman sitting next to you).
A great way to determine if a car is right for YOU is live with it for several days or a week by renting one. You might also be able to tell how it's held up under some hard use, if it has some miles on it. You can do that with most of the cars in this class. Unfortunately, it's very very difficult to do with Accords.
Not at all. But a "test drive" should be only to confirm what you have researched beforehand. Consumer Reports (and other car reviews and comparisons) can give you an idea what to look for, when you test drive the car (pros & cons). For instance, some car reviews say that the 06 Sonata has the A/C vents in the wrong position on the center of the dash. This is something I would check out when test driving the car. To see if this was a problem for me personally. I want to know what some of the high points, and low points are, before I even walk on the lot. When I go to test drive a car, I usually know more about the car than the salesman does. It's sad, but true.
BTW . . . when was the last time you read a poor review in CR on any Honda product (car, truck, lawn mower, or generator)?