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That is exactly the pattern that most people go thru. I went thru the same learning curve. I used to think that all sports cars were the same...but Porsches are different from Ferraris and other exotics....they are truly every day drivers..... My 928, God rest its engine, would go anywhere and do anything with no problems.... Also the case for the Boxster . The Cayenne has some minor first year teething problems...but mine is doing fine....relatively speaking.
But, turn the clock forward about 20 years, and when I got to the point where I could afford a nice sports car, the 911's virtues became meaningful. Not the least of which is that it is a car you can drive every day. Perhaps if I were in a higher socioeconomic bracket I would be singing the virtues of a Ferrari that only comes out on sunny weekends once a month. But in 7 weeks, I'm guessing that my 2,900 miles exceeds the average annual mileage of most Ferrari owners by 50%.
Agree completely. At my friend's house...he uses the 750i and Porsche 911 for everyday commute. He barely drives his 1990 Ferrari Mondial ( he says maybe once a month) and has only 350 miles on the new 2005 Mercedes McLaren SLR. The bulk of miles is on the 911 and Bimmer.
I certainly would not dispute that some 911's are purchased for purely its "looks" by status seekers looking to impress the crowds. But I've also run into a fair number of other 911 owners that are about as practical as they come.
I agree also.....but >>
Why would anyone really be impressed by a 911 ? It is a fairly pedestrian vehicle , a everyman's sports car. Used ones can be had for a good price, and still run strong for years. These vehicles are nice. I think the 968 are also nice...strong 4 cylinder engine that sips gas.
agree entirely... Some of them were more interested in the cup holders....not that I mind them since I put the cell phone and the cup of joe there.
So I think a lot of the poseurs quickly shuffle off to a Lexus SC430 once they've sobered up to what a Porsche really is.
or BMW or baby mercedes also...
Some people do criticize Porsche for not giving people "their money's worth" but that depends on what you think is "worth" the money.
hey.... Porsche is all about a caddilac ride , right ?
There is the old cliche that the most brilliant performer/film director/musicians actually create their audience rather than please a ready-made one.
shifty, you lost that opportunity...cause you really oughta be into philosophy....
lotsa reasons people buy Porsches....also includes the fact that Porsche made the first 4 wheel drive vehicle in the world...the Lohner Porsche...back in 1901 to 1902.
So some people criticize Porsche for going into uncharted territory...by making the Cayenne...little do they know that the world's first 4 wheel drive vehicle was a Lohner Porsche in 1901-02.
well, alot of people copied or followed Porsche into 4 wheel drive ( wait, make that "all") since 1902...
I agree with scotty that panerama may "seem " more Porsche like in image .... even though 4 wheel drive is in the history of Porsche...
I don't get 'Porsche vibes' looking at the Cayenne even though it is a very powerful vehicle.
Yes... have a relatively lower weight chasis, add sports tuning, then add a powerful engine that gets relatively good mileage...and it would be a super high performance sedan...hopefully it will look the part too. I think they will use the Cayenne V8 engine in the Panemera.
I don't get 'Porsche vibes' looking at the Cayenne even though it is a very powerful vehicle.
I agree....not many people do.....then again, many people do get the 'Porsche 'or 'exotic' or 'sports' vibe when they see it....
BTW, did you know that a dutch tuner made a cayenne that broke the world speed record for SUV ? Using many of the original parts too .... 193 mph....
Now Mercedes must be shoehorning the McLaren SLR engine into a ML chasis
Now really, if you can recycle all your unused 928 engine blocks, or re-use the tooling, into an expensive SUV -- that has to be very clever business.
Shifty - thanks for the reminder about the 928/Cayenne V-8 connection. This was brilliant: finding a use for a great engine while saving design costs.
Now the same V-8 gets used in the Panamera series! Tooling and development costs must be nearly zero.
I dislike the Cayenne because it ate the Porsche budget for Prototype Sports Car racing, ending Porsche's reign as the Weltmeister of endurance racing.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Yep.....the V8 layout looks just like the cayenne engine.
Obviously, Porsche was confident of its V8 engine, ( which was strong and relatively maintenance free) that it just used some of the same parts and similar designs .
Smart way to do business.
You are right....It would be interesting to see if they build towards that direction. Given their history, I think they may.......
I am glad that they did not try to redesign the whole engine..... Most of the problems with the Cayenne ( in some vehicles) are associated with the newly designed parts. Like the over protective car locks, the nav, and the integration of all these components with a central computer.
If anything, I think that Porsche forgot its 4 wheel drive roots and offroad roots...( they built some mean military vehicles during WWII, though it was for Hitler) .
Porsche has lots of experience in offroad and 4 wheel drive, imho. I think that the company, if anything, got into the SUV phenom TOO LATE !! They should have heeded thier inner business sense,,,,instead of cower to the manufactured sense of image that Porsche can/should only build sports cars. I think they would have sold a lot more Cayennes if they got into it earlier, instead of 2003, when sales was tapering off.
Don't get me wrong... I agree that sports and performance is what Porsche is all about.. I just think they proved it by making an SUV that can outperform most cars on the roadways. That is a tough nut to crack..since the parameters of offroading vs high performance are mutually exclusive, or so it seemed, until Porsche proved it could be done.
I dislike the Cayenne because it ate the Porsche budget for Prototype Sports Car racing, ending Porsche's reign as the Weltmeister of endurance racing
Oh, OK....I understand. But I would like to think of it this way....Porsche is a smart company that evolved in accordance with the changing climate, and thus ensured its own survival and independence. It now has , what, maybe $5 billion in the bank....CASH ! Because of the Cayenne, it now can continue its legacy of providing high performance vehicles, without compromising its image, and get back into racing and maybe even road rallys.
If it did NOT produce the Cayenne back a few years ago, Porsche may very well now be a subsidiary of FORD or GM...with thier associated pitfalls.
SUVs are turning out to be, well...dinosaurs. :P
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
As to whether they should have bypassed it....the answer, in my opinion, is NO. This is coming from someone who has owned quite a few Porsche products and driven many of them. I am glad they made the Cayenne. Except I lament that they got into the market tooo late....and the Bimmer took away alot of sales. Porsche was and is the only car maker who could make a true SUV that could offroad and perform like a sports car....that in and of itself is a testament to the engineering and design capabilities of Porsche . I think they will continue to sell, though not to the people who really just need a Toyota Corolla .
SUVs are 'old' for the ones who are just using them like cars and for the image. But for those who use them to get thru snow and for the safety and height advantage...they are true godsend for the family.
Will they try to regain the glory in racing of yesterday?
Will they continue to sell the 911 and boxsters ?
Will Panemera be a success , if they indeed go thru with it? I know they decided to go ...but it will be a few years before we see anything.
the big question:
Will they put a hybrid engine into a Porsche product ?
They have been talking with Toyota. Can they come up with a German hybrid engine with more efficiency ? Will that turn off all the Porschephiles ? Is the market going in that direction >??
I have no strong personal opinion regarded the "should they have" with respect to the Cayenne. However, I do wonder about the large inventories of leftover 2005's that many dealers have and whether or not Porsche is going to be taking a financial hit on them.
Frankly, I always thought the Cayenne market was rather limited, especially since the "off-road" capability that they might have would almost necessitate a second set of wheels and tires. The low profile tires on Cayenne S or Turbo are hardly made for logging roads.
But now, when you take into consideration that consumer confidence is not great (we are seeing home prices decline in our area, finally), gas prices are still high, the tax deductions of 6,000 lb SUV's have been watered down adn are going away, etc., I would not want to be a Porsche dealer with 20 2005 Cayenne S's on his lot.
But as a marketing gimmick or "feel good tech" for Porsche? Hard to say. I don't think 911 buyers care about "gas mileage" but maybe Cayenne drivers would.
I hope they find buyers for those left over cars. Guess they will have to discount them.
I think realestate prices may come down also. Gasoline has been going down...but heating cost will go up .
Have fun in your 911, habitat...!!
What good does GM do for a Corvette's image if it goes bankrupt?
There are plenty of very fast cars that don't exist anymore. If speed were the criteria for success, who would buy a Miata?
A company can be a success even with a very mediocre product, like Harley Davidson. Just about any bike costing half the price can beat them around a track but the owners don't care at all and they never will care.
A really brilliant car company dials in their audience perfectly I think, and Porsche just seems to dominate the high quality high priced sportscar arena.
Actually, a Porsche didn't compete in the GT1 class at Laguna Seca last month. One of the GT1 cars bumped a Panoz Esperante GTLM that was running well, likely knocking it out of a GT2 victory. Also, LMP2 in the ALMS this year was been quite boring not only compared to the other three classes but also Grand American Sports Car Racing.
New LMP1 cars will keep an overall victory out of the grasp of the new RS Spyder. Audi will have a new LMP1 car next year.
Now there, I'd question you since I just got back from Sears Point and getting my stock engine (350hp) Corvette Coupe to a personal best of 2.00.8 while a guy named Dave V. did his qualification lap for an exhibition in a Spec. Miata in 1:57.5. The Miata seems to be plenty fast and there are tons of them out there being set up for the track.
As to record profits making a good company I'm betting that wasn't your view when Ford and GM made record profits a few years back. The US auto industry may just have a few issues with irrational labor expectations but I'm betting Porsche has it's share of that problem as well. How they get people to over pay is something that still escapes me, but since I didn't have the money to pay for image when younger I don't see any need to start now.
GM going bankrupt probably won't have a lot to do with GM cars or financing car sales. It seems to have a lot to do with laying off liabililties associated with past labor decisions. What Unions seem to want to ignore is that something is only worth what someone else is willing to do it for in terms of pay.
Back to Porsche, I'm happy for them that they have a current lineup that is moving with the prospect of new models that will push others ahead. Dave Hill trotted out 911s at several events for comparison to both the C6 and new Z06 and admits it is the standard Corvette is shooting for, let's hope they get even closer in the future. Will everyone be as put off by 60% take rates on auto's in the Vette when it is a 6 speed paddle shifter?
As for fast Miatas, give me enough money and I'll build a Hyundai to spank a Ferrari. Point is 99% of the Miata buyers are quite content with 0-60 in 8 seconds or so, because the car gives them what they want---style, value and excitement.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I would guess that the Cayenne is holding its own in comparison with other big V8 sporty SUVs.
I am wondering if there are just too many attempts to segment the market - and too much competition within some of these limited segments. We have three vehicles in a two driver household: an SUV, a four door sedan, and a sports car. They all serve a purpose. No matter how good something else is, we aren't going to get a fourth car. So, with Mercedes sales off and BMW's 6-series looking weak, I have to ask if the Panamera is a day late and a dollar short to that party?
I'll admit that I just don't get the 4,000 lb luxury sport coupe concept, so perhaps I'm just an unenlightened cynic. I hope Porsche has done a lot more market research to prove me wrong.
This is why people who try to study Porsche and Ferrari as if they were "normal" businesses always end up banging their heads against their desks.
But....having said all that...one day even Ferrari's luck may in fact run out, if market conditions really get bad for everyone...like if an asteroid hits the earth or something.
I did read though that most luxury cars are suffering a 10-12% drop off in sales due to rising gas prices. I didn't expect that to happen.
Also, my gut, augmented by my business experience, suggests to me that rising gas prices aren't affecting Ferrari sales (nor even the 911's). Hell, even a commoner like me didn't find $3.25 gas to be that much of a deterrant. At 12,000 miles per year, an extra $1 per gallon would cost an extra $700 for the year. fortunately, gas prices appear to have stabilized in our area at around $2.50 for premium. A 150+ mile Saturday sightseeing trip to the Eastern Shore and lunch with the family still costs less than the new Harry Potter movie and popcorn. But if I had just lost 15% in the stock market or on the value of our house, that 911 purchase in September likely wouldn't have happened. Not that it would have been fatal to my financial condition, it just would have likely squelched my comfort in splurging.
I just toured a friendly competitor's condo project under construction in Florida. Thirty units from 4,500 square feet to 17,000 square feet. Prices starting at $4.5 million to $20 million+, with no flooring included. Delivery in 2007, half pre-sold. Ferrari has absolutely nothing to worry about, short of that asteroid.
But on the micro scale, "boutique" car makers and house builders seem to be doing just fine for now---if they have their ducks in a row and provide a unique and quality product. We are talking Ferrari, not Zimmer.
Sometimes a company (i.e. MB) loses vision and produces cars that are unreliable and not true to their heritage: sometimes a company (i.e. GM) lets quality and costs get out of hand.
So much harder to rebuild something than to maintain it.
If current leaders like Ferrari and Porsche ever fall by the way others will take their place.
If I were GM, I'd sell Buick to Kia and with the money take Corvette racing around the world. :P
It seems there is a performance penalty but there must be some takers.
I expect it is hard to sell a used 911 Tiptronic, though.
As far as resale, it's probably not that difficult to re-sell a Tiptronic, but I wouldn't count on recouping much of the $3,400 cost. It might even result in lower resale in some markets.
What I can't figure out is the high (75% +/-) figure that Ferrari of Washington quoted me as the percentage of F430 buyers that choose the F1 transmission over the traditional 6-speed. Almost the opposite of the 911 mix. And that's not a car that is likely to be driven to an from the office during a heavy rush hour. I recognize that the Ferrari F1 transmission has been proclaimed as the best in the world and doesn't compromise performance, but still...
Anyway, that's my theory.
Sure tiptronic is a minority opinion on a Porsche, I would agree, and I also agree it is more appealing on a Boxster, which is not as likely to attract the hard core Porsche enthusiast.
Shifty - the paddle shift cars do use a clutch but IMO using a clutch is part of the manual driving experience.
Has anyone here ever driven a paddle shift car? I would be interested to hear their input.
Not for me. There was a slight hesitation in accelerating from a dead stop (like in making a left turn in oncoming traffic) that was a bit disconcerting. There was also a bit of jerkiness that evidenced itself in various driving conditions.
I believe BMW has improved their SMG's, especially for the new M5, but for my preferences, I'll still take the clutch that I control with my left foot. At least if I do the herky-jerky, I know who to blame. With the M3 I drove, I'd be back to the dealer trying to convince them something was wrong.
As long as I have a functioning left leg, I'll be happy to use it. Save technology for other things that offer a measurable improvement.
P.S. Another factor to consider is that, although clutches in BMW's and Porsches are not cheap, I was told that repairs or replacement of an SMG automatic transmission would be several thousand dollars more than a clutch replacement.
But wait....they did not want to just stick an engine into a jacked up chasis ?!! ...but produce a true 4 wheel driver that can offroad....and a true sports car...alll in one car. All other vehicle engineers thought the two goals were mutually exclusive.... Porsche pulled it off. This thing can take the Moab Desert climb...then go to the track. By the way...the Cayenne is listed in the Guiness Boook of Records as the fastest SUV....at 193 mph. This is also true for production SUVs....with top speed at 165 plus ( depending on fuel type )
I think lemmer is right....most all vehicles suffered due to economy and fuel costs. The Touareg VW sales dropped even more than the Cayenne....over 39% for touareg, compared to 26% for cayenne.
I was recently at the GM auto show in motion....and drove most of their vehicles.... But to be honest...the solstice is also too late for the small convertible market that was started by Miata about 12 years ago....the Gto performs great...but the looks gives it a Oldsmobile look...instead of a nice sports car look. What's wrong with camaro ? I am truly worried about our largest auto maker...!!! I wanted a minivan ( my wife wants it) ..and we were underwhelmed by the Terraza, or the other relabeled minivan whose name was forgettable. Why can't we produce some nice minivans ? Why ? I love the corvette....and took a spin in the 2006 one.
I hoped we could produce winners in all categories...but now look at GM. I wish I could get my hands on some of thier designers and engineers....( not the corvette ones) and give them a piece of my mind...How could they produce such losers and still collect a paycheck is beyond me. I want to buy American...but their products mostly disappoint me !!! sigh...
In all honesty, I wish I could stand up and laugh at foreign autos...and say all US autos were the best !! That would be great for the economy...but I think we lost the edge... Only the corvette and a few others is holding up the US end of auto making, IMHO.
Why can't we learn from other car makers....and stop dumping money down losers....???
but what is it with the Mercedes Maclaren SLR ? I sat in my friend's silver one...nice. He was happy to get it at retail MSRP. Compared to the first ones delivered at over $1 mil, he got a great price.!! But then I did some checking, and these extremely limited production cars that can go from 0-60 in 3.8 sec..are now sitting idle...and just begging for owners.......
I hope porsche does not get on the lux sport sedan bandwagon too late... Most of its technology has been proven in the , 928, 911, & Cayenne.
Panamera styling is IMO just right for a Porsche sedan and it is based (as you said) on proven technology.
They would be wise to add coupe and cabrio Panamera versions to widen the sales appeal.
And the 20%? That is just a stock purchase... Just because VW might be a crappy company doesn't mean their stock is a bad buy.. It could be.. but, it doesn't have to be... If Porsche has excess cash, that might be as good an investment as any... and, it is an investment that they might be able to improve, through their involvement with VW engineering..
regards,
kyfdx
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Boxster sales more than doubled and 911 sales were up 4.7%.
Cayenne sales dropped substantially but overall Porsche vehicle sales rose 1.5% for 2005.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/01/04/204904.html
'Its (Porsche) cars are among the most desired. On fewer than 100,000 cars a year, pretax profits at Porsche run 1 billion pounds (US$1.8 billion)'
From an article in Forbes:
http://www.forbes.com/columnists/2006/01/13/volkswagen-bmw-germany_cz_jf_05germa- ny40_0117flint.html
An engineering flaw marketed as a chance to perfect the driving skill to keep it on the road. Hum ...
Porsche adds new (and profitable) options every year to their long list. Porsche buyers order lots of options to personalize their cars.
The Autoextremist was bowled over by some Porsche options that he saw at the Detroit Auto show. Read his take at this link (scroll down about 3/4 of the way to the paragraph titled 'We are Porsche'.
http://www.autoextremist.com/page2.shtml
It's very shrewd business and something domestic manufacturers forgot, which is why many of them are not doing well now. The Big 2.5 hand off gazillions of dollars to aftermarket, but Porsche keeps much of it in house....or they anoint special tuners to do it for them (no doubt at a price).
Porsche owners are no more being fleeced than the guy who ponied up an extra $800 bucks to Chrysler(on an MSRP of $3,500!!) for a 426 Hemi engine option.