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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I personally feel Hyundai's quality is far above that perceived by the average consumer
    and you might be right on both counts - which is the problem relative to Hyundai trying to sell a $40k 'luxury' car.
  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    Have to agree with all you pronouncements. I think the biggest market for the Genesis is going to be people looking at Azeras. Maybe a few Avalon or Buick shoppers. Comparisons to BMW and MB are cute but hardly have an impact on those buyers. They really might be better off saying it's a better Avalon.

    May be a great car but to call it a luxury car forgets that luxury is as much a subjective image as it is the objective part of how many goodies you get. I'd liken it to gem stones. Garnets and Tourmalines are every bit as lovely as Rubies and Sapphires. But bet you'd get a bigger, ah, kiss from the misses if you gave her a Ruby necklace instead of a Garnet one. It's all perception, or if you wish, image....
  • unkownuserunkownuser Member Posts: 23
    Kriter, I'm glad of your good experience. Mine is the opposite- a new Elantra with 18k miles on it is undriveable, and Hyundai will not honor America's Best Warranty. Details do not belong here, but just wanted to declare in the interest of impartiality that I'll not spend another cent on a Hyundai ever again, will go back to Japanese, and you're welcome.
  • hjc1hjc1 Member Posts: 183
    I'm sure everyone has had a bad experience with a car. I had a bad problem with a Toyota Solara and had to take them to arbitration. They lost and HAD to take care of the problems. That was the last Toyota I'll own..... Yes they make good cars BUT
    when you deal with factory staff with their car problems thinks change...............
    Since then I have purchased 04 XG350L and now have an AZERA both have been
    great cars
  • autokritikerautokritiker Member Posts: 65
    Thats a bummer what happened with your Elantra. Since you left out all the details, I'm curious to know what happened after just 18K miles that wasn't covered under warranty -- especially since it's severe enough to leave the car undrivable. Realize, there are also some owners of Japanese cars that have had serious mechanical problems in the first year of ownership, as well as poor dealership experiences in trying to fix the problem and getting nowhere. If you ever have that kind of experience with a Japanese brand, will you swear off that brand as well?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    will you swear off that brand as well?

    Honda and Toyota sell how many more cars in the US than Hyundai. There is no one manufacturer that is immune to issues. However, there are some that seem to have more than their fair share.
  • kringwoodkringwood Member Posts: 8
    Recently bought a Merc.Montego 2005 Premier,great car,lost my 97 Grand Marquis to a red light runner on xmas eve 07 and need a car quick,lots of goodies,only draebacks are its made of Onionskin,lean on the hood and you'll almost cause a dent,factory tires Continentals are junk and rides like a truck/w only 18k miles there all cracked on the sidewalls but alot of meat left,the rear brakes make such a mess of the rims and heard of a Class Action Suit,willpersue it on the brakes. The interior has alot more room than the G.Marquis and trunk 1.5sqft larger(deeper,runs to the back seat)great MPG aver.25-26mpg w/combined drive steering is a bit awkward but seating is high and firm,just what I want with a bad back,bad ctr. glove door,has a bubble but paid 12,900 for it off lease,great deal w/ fact warranty till 36k.
  • jdubb2jdubb2 Member Posts: 5
    This may be off topic a little compared to recent posts, but in my current new car search, I've test driven 20 models of cars/crossovers/mini-vans. In case anyone is interested below are my top 5:
    1. Maxima SL
    2. Charger R/T AWD
    3. Accord EX-L V6
    4. Camry XLE V6
    5. Edge SEL (vista roof a must!)

    In no particular order, here are the rest: Avalon, Altima, Infiniti G35 (used), Malibu, Impala, Outlook, Enclave, Acadia, Prius, Highlander, Taurus (Five Hundred), Lucerne, 300, Town & Country, and a CR-V.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    pronoucements?!
    Sorry if I come off like that, but I will admit that any statement by anybody selling anything that likens it to the best available means that that somebody doesn't understand what makes the 'best' or 'why' it is the best - at least ,in this case. What do all these Hyundai proponents think - that only thing in a $60k automobile is extra markup? Like your metaphor/simile, but comparing a Korean car to one of those German/high end Japanese ones is more ridiculous than even that!. Well, almost time for the Super Bowl - maybe I can avoid those ads - or laugh at them like I should. I may know just enough about cars to do that
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    You're looking at different classes of cars but I noticed you have not tried a Hyundai. Test drive a Sonata and an Azera. Maybe you'll like them, maybe not.

    But if you don't try them you'll never know if they would fit your needs/desires.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    So I was at a Super Bowl party last night, and when the Hyundai ads came on, the 40+ people at the party were genuiely positive about them. Some people were wooing about the 375hp, others were just surprised (in a good way) about the fact it's a Hyundai.

    We can over-analyze all we want on here, but at the end of the day, those ads reached a large part of the viewership. It really doesn't matter whether we like it or not, it's about Hyundai's goal to make a new name for themselves. Last night, the company just took the first GIANT ;) step!!!

    The game itself was nothing short of FANTASTIC. G-Men baby :)

    An under-appreciated team took down a power house - what symbolism.

    The ads overall were so-so.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You know...it's funny, I witnessed the same thing. I even had a buddy call me from another super bowl party (he knows I'm a Hyundai fan) and he was telling me about all the folks going crazy about it at that party too. He said this of the first ad, "They were looking at it thinking it was a new Lexus or something and when they saw the end, their mouths just dropped." He said after they realized it was a Hyundai, the chatter started up about how intrigued everyone was over that car. One heck of a twist, huh? ;)

    The game...indeed, one for the ages!!! A nail bitter at the end as it could have gone either way. However, I was one that figured the Giants had what it took to beat the Pats. The key...putting and keeping pressure on Brady. That dude hit the turf more last night than he did all season it seems! LOL
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    think you 'Hyundai' guys are seeing the world through rose colored glasses. You may, of course, all be right although I'll still contend that Hyundai is making a big mistake marketing the Genesis this way. Hopefully the Genesis doesn't become an 'Edsel' or a 'Millenia' and the genuinely good effort in this class called the Azera doesn't become an orphan.
    A thought for general discussion though - if you make the assumption that it cost Hyundai about $10 million for 60 seconds of advertising time (including production costs). How can Hyundai ever justify the expense against a quantified increase in sales? Do you really think that Budweiser, for example, can point to an increase in sales to justify spending a whole lot more money than Hyundai did . People are going to buy the beer anyway just as they might buy the car anyway. Maybe a number of companies are realizing it is a waste because there sure were a lot of 'Fox' ads. More "Off topic" than usual, I suppose, but something interesting to think about.
    You are right - an uncharacteristically good football game, unusual for a Super Bowl- and despite some rather far fetched Korean car commercials. ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Hey...it's like this, with Hyundai producing TWO commercials during the Super Bowl for the Genesis, that's WAY more than they did for the Azera. The first Azera commercial didn't come out until AFTER the car had been in show rooms for a while. Maybe, just maybe...they understand where they went wrong with the Azera in marketing terms and are trying to correct it with the Genesis.

    As far as the "comparisons"...it's merely a reference they are using, nothing more. I can understand if Hyundai jumped out there and said, "Genesis...performs better than an S-Class, yet will only set you back like a C-Class." THAT...my friend would be jumping out there on a limb that even I couldn't comprehend. I think they used the Benzes and BMW's merely because they are highly recognizable cars. Anyone that knows cars (and that's a lot of folks) know how big the S-Class and 7-Series are. They also know that the C-Class and 3-Series are the entry level cars for those brands. Hyundai is merely saying...we'll give you the interior space of those big cars for the price of the little ones.

    The problem with comparing the Budweiser ads and the Hyundai ads...Budweiser is a VERY well established product. I don't think there's a beer ad out there that will increase sales off of any one ad. Hyundai, however...the Genesis being a brand spanking new car...the whole idea is to generate interest. If they do that much with the ads, then maybe...in this case...mission accomplished.

    In my opinion...there weren't really and great ads this year. At best, they good ones were amusing.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    How can Hyundai ever justify the expense against a quantified increase in sales?

    Boy if everyone was pessmesstic like you are for saying what you just said...how can XXXX (Audi, Toyota, Hyundai, GM) ever justify the expense against a quantitifed expense increase in sales? All automakers advertised during the Super Bowl?

    How? The course of running a business. If you don't take risks, you wouldn't know the possibilities and the results, good or bad. Start running a business, and everything would be in better perspective.

    Bottom line, the ads seemed have worked, and they served their intended purposes.

    By the way, look for more major ads on the Genesis. This is just the beginning. Get used to it.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the ads seemed have worked, and they served their intended purposes.
    you don't know that - because:
    1) they haven't sold any cars yet - well OK, there might be a few pre-orders
    and
    2) the ads obviously served the purpose for those that might have some Korean 'preferences' we don't know if it was taken seriously at all by anybody else. Not everybody looks thru those tinted glasses!

    And BTW my 05 Avalon (that I paid $30k for) seems to be needing replacement within the next year or so ;) and both the Azera (if it is still made) and the Genesis will be on my shopping list, although as I have said before I don't think I'm going to want to sacrifice 4 mpg or so to have what either car offers. If there are more ads, that's fine, maybe it helps to improve Hyundai's image, but I still consider that anybody that really thinks that 'BMW/MB ought to be worried' is certifiably nuts.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    where they went wrong with the Azera in marketing terms
    maybe the answer to this is that where they went 'wrong' is simply that the consumer is not willing to spend $30k on a 'Korean' car. The Azera certainly seems 'worth' it in an empirical sense, how else do you explain slow sales - because they didn't spend a bunch of money on an advertising campaign? I don't know about you but about the last reason I will buy anything is because of some silly ads. The opposite is more likely true.
  • prosource1prosource1 Member Posts: 234
    You really think Hyundai is worried about the Genesis as a sales 'success' or is it more a brand enhancement and image tool to sell more vehicles(Sonata's, Santa Fe's, Veracruz's and Azera's) that really pay the bills? Consider the facts:

    - Hyundai will recoup every dollar of the $550 million of R&D in their home market where they are protected and make premium profit on every vehicle. They sold 12,000 Genesis' in the first month domestically. You really don't think they are intending on this to be an immediate sales success in N.America? They aren't even marketing this in Europe. Don't be naive. Chung didn't buy Jag or develop a new luxury marque because he wants to keep his present and new plants running by enhancing brand image. Future people! Why do you think they are selling Hyundai at the Superbowl. It's not about selling Genesis'. It's raising the brand to sell more Sonata's and Santa Fe's. Hyundai is in this for the long run. It'll take years to sell the Genesis here but eventually they will just like they are selling Santa Fe's for $25k, which noone believed could've happened even 5 years ago. It takes time.

    - The Genesis has to be launched here in N. America because this is the world's premier market. Hyundai has survived amidst everyones jokes, predictions and has actually impacted this market in a huge way. Who would've predicted that Hyundai/Kia would sell 800,000 cars 10 years ago when in fact the experts said they were going under. Wrong. Experts claimed their warranty would cripple them. Wrong. Experts claim they can't sell the Genesis. Actually, they are trying to sell Sonata's and Santa Fe's for now. The Genesis is for 5 years down the road.

    Scary Koreans. Chrysler should be very scared. Ford should be very scared. GM's peripheral brands should be very scared. Hyundai is going to eat your lunch. Mark my words. Hyundai/Kia will sell a million cars between them eventually and those sales are coming from somewhere.

    -Not to mention that India, China and other developing markets have no predisposition about Korean cars like we do. Hyundai is building their product pipeline for the future.

    -Journalists and enthusiasts are ignorantly questioning whether Hyundai can succeed in selling the Genesis. Wrong Question. It's not about a single products success. Koreans build product, fill segments and build market share by infusing product and offering incentives. Hyundai and Kia are very successful like it or not. The Korean playbook has worked and now they are ramping up their brand to compete by improving quality. They aren't #6 in the world because they have failed! The Korean's are now being labeled as 'scary good'. This is by top five manufacturing CEO's. What do you think that means?
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    Re 4872: "By the way, look for more major ads on the Genesis. This is just the beginning. Get used to it."

    The suits in Korea are taking a money wasting risk if they continue to bleed their US markerting budget trying to launch the new Genesis given the oh so simple warning signs of:

    1. Slapping an H anywhere on the vehicle.
    2. Delivering Genesis for sales responsibility to the existing US H dealer network.

    After "more major ads", as you put it, the fun begins with deep dealer price cuts and runaway factory rebates.

    Get used to it.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I wasn't talking about bean-counting. Of course that's a ways way, considering the car won't in showroom until this summer. I was referring to the feedback of the ads from the viewers when I said,

    "the ads seemed have worked, and they served their intended purposes."

    Good for you on the shopping list. Heck, if everyone is open-minded, then we wouldn't be having these discussions. The Japanese, for the most part, has succeeded, now it's S. Koreans's turn, just a few decades later.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    $12,900 for a 3-year-old Montego? That's one sorry [non-permissible content removed] resale value...

    50% in 3 years? WOW!! :surprise:

    Good for the used car buyers though...
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    To be quiet honest, I think Genesis is a pretty good car myself too.

    Now here is the question...

    After watching Hyundai super bowl commercials, how many of your friends who are currently driving BMW/MB/Lexus/Audi said they are going to replace the current ride with the Genesis?

    Let's count them. From me: none.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    What are you talking about? May I advise getting your facts straight before posting incorrect assumptions. Hyundai is bleeding their US marketing budget? Oh man, that's the post of the day. First, it's Azera getting no marketing budget (which I proved to you is far from the truth). Do I sense some jealousy because the Genesis is getting all of the attention and the Azera is not? ;)

    Oh when I said more ads are coming, I didn't just make that up. These are facts from Hyundai.

    #1 makes no sense; clarification?
    #2 you can back it up with facts? Don't tell me the dealership nearest to you is your reflection on the whole network and basis for your #2

    Hyundai USA is going to have a long pre-sell period for the Genesis with different events (i.e. invitation-only, ride-and-drive). Of course, more teasers, spots will appear in various media outlet, in addition to the internet marketing and Super Bowl, which has started already (in Edmunds here) and took place yesterday, respectively.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    *coughing & choking* Did I read you correctly??? Did you actually type that you would be looking at the Azera and/or the Genesis??? :surprise:

    I finally have to agree with you on the part about Hyundai being nuts to think that BMW/MB would worry about them. If they had said Toyote, Honda and Nissan...i would concur with that notion.

    The only thing I can see Genesis biting into would be the C-Class sales. I mean...if someone could get a C-Class for $35K or a fully loaded Genesis for the same price...they may be willing to look past an ENTRY level Benz and go with the Hyundai. I truly don't see someone, interested in an E-Class or above, going back and considering a Genesis.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Actually, I think the entry level luxury segment is going to be least effected by the Genesis (well, actually the whole luxury market has not much to worry about) because those who buy those small luxury sedans are either:

    1. looking for the brand image: They want a BMW/MB/Lexus but the small entry sedans are all they can afford.

    or

    2. looking for performance (like me): If I am looking for performance with a luxury touch there is not way I'll choose the 3-series, IS and even the G35 over the humongous Genesis.

    I think besides Pontiac and Chrysler, Acura should be another one to look out for the Genesis. I see can this car to steal some potential TL buyers away from Acura.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    sounds like a 'Korean' kind of resale value doesn't it? :surprise: Too many people confuse 'cheap to buy' with value IMO - like those Montego/500 buyers who had to be taking a horrendous hit as that car was later sold new for 30% discounts. Kinda like a jewelry/furniture store - 50% off of what? There is some general truth to getting what you pay for (or are willing to pay for). Maybe someday Hyundai/Kia as well as some 'more American' brands I can think of will be able to sell because of how good they are and not by size of 'discount'! Such things work wonders in the 'real cost-to-own' department.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I disagree with you. I don't think the entry level luxury segment will be completely altered, but...Genesis will definitely give folks a robust option for those that want more. I mean...some folks WANT an E-Class, but can only afford a C-Class. If they see what the Genesis offers...I feel that they would pass on the C-Class and go with the Genesis. However, you're right...there are plenty that still want brand recognition, even if it means a piddly lil C-Class.

    Personally...I wouldn't jump into a Benz unless it was an E-Class or up. Same goes with BMW...got a be at least a 5-Series.

    How do you know you won't choose a Genesis over a 3-Series, IS or G35 when the Genesis will run circles around all three of them...power-wise. We'll have to wait and see what the car can ACTUALLY do in putting that power on the ground. Hyundai MAY have the equivalent of the Lexus GS on their hands when it's all said and done.

    The Azera (if they marketed it correctly) would be enough to steal TL buyers. The Genesis would be more aimed at the RL.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Kinda agree with Louis here as I think my 'ultimate' car right now - if I was in the market for something 'fun' would be the IS350 or possibly the new 135 from BMW. Cars of this type and big ole sedans have little in common - like Pontiac thinking the new G8 is gonna be a 'sports sedan' - to darn big!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ahhhhhhh...but this is where you're wrong. The consumer is willing to spend close to $30K on the Azera (those that know about it). I mean...those nay sayers that haven't taken the opportunity to actually go and look at an Azera, but only go on what they think they know or what they remember from Hyundai's past. We already know...slow sales is a direct result of the poor marketing. It seems like Hyundai is going to put all their eggs in the Genesis basket. One line of thought is...we'll get them in to look at the Genesis and if they think it's too much for them, we can show them the Azera. Don't be surprised if Azera sales pick up after the Genesis hits showrooms.

    You're right...I won't buy a car because of an ad, but if nobody really knows about the car...the ad is needed to generate some interest. I mean...there just aren't enough of them on the streets for folks to get a good look at them to even wonder. Most recently, on a trip to FL from DC...left on a Wednesday evening (driving down) and came back Monday...in that entire time, passing MAYBE only 5 or 6 Azeras.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...you have the fun "sports sedan" for singles or couples: i.e. IS350, 1 or 3-Series, etc. However, for those of us that still have a need to tote a family around...then the likes of the E-Class, 5-Series, GS, M and yes...even the Genesis or G8 would be for us.

    Funny...you consider the Genesis or G8 too big to be a "sports sedan" and yet, you don't have a problem with a 5 or 7-Series or an AMG version of an E or S-Class.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    Re 4880: In response, I state my opinions which I believe is allowed here.

    1. If you think putting the H on Genesis is the way to go, fine...I don't.
    2. If you have confidence that the Hyundai US dealer network is capable of professionally selling Genesis, fine...I don't.

    The only thing you have proved to me is that you too have an opinion.

    As one of the hosts has said, if you don't care for a topic, post or comment you see, ignore them. In all fairness though, yours are hard to ignore.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Why not, it's a Hyundai...is it not? I think, even more of a reason for Hyundai to flaunt an "H" on it. Folks will see it (like the Azera) and have a hard time believe their eyes.

    I agree with you on your 2nd point. They are struggling with selling the Azera, not unless Hyundai Corporate is going to go on a customer service blitz and give all the dealerships attitude make-overs.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    For those people who "want" an E-class they also "want" a tri-star, blue-and-white prop and big-L emblems on their cars either. Last I checked, the Genesis doesn't come with any of those...

    I wouldn't jump on the C-class myself but I can definitely see why people are falling for the 3-series. BMW might be a little cocky to declare themselves the ultimate driving machine but if they said they are the ultimate driving machine for the common folks I would agree with them.

    Sure, the Genesis has the big V8 that none of the entry luxury sedans has, however, in pure straight line acceleration my money is on the 3-series, IS and G35. Next time when you are talking about power let's not forget to mention about the power to weight ratio as well... As for running circles, my money is on the 3er/IS/G35 on any kind of track.

    You do know that the 3er/IS/G handles better and is faster than 5er/GS/M (Genesis' benchmarks) right?

    Azera has nothing on TL except maybe the straight line performance, the TL is a sports sedan and Azzy is a land yacht. big V6 and 4 doors are about the only commonalties that the two cars share.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Louis...I addressed that point already, there will be some that have to HAVE that name brand, but for those that can pass on entry level to get more for their money...those are the sales they will steal.

    A 3-Series out-accelerating a Genesis in a straight line! LMAO Okay, I would be with you if you pulled out a slalom or windy mount road, but a straight line...Louis, you done bumped your head. Aren't you the same one that said your Max could keep up with a 3-Series in a straight line, but you would see his tail lights in a slalom or windy road??? How can you feel that way about a Max, but not a more powerful (by a lot) Genesis? You talk out the side of your neck sometimes too.

    Louis...according to Captain...the TL is not a sports sedan because it's FWD. Sorry, those are his words. Besides...the only TL that can handle an Azera power-wise is the TL-S. ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Usually those who drive an IS/3er/C with a family and kids have people haulers like SUVs and minivans in their garage.

    The little luxury sedans are nothing more than their daily drivers to the offices and back (and weekend cars when they are alone).

    I think the G8, Genesis and 5er are sports sedan even though they are big. They are just not as sporty as the smaller 3er, IS and C-class that's all.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    A 3-Series out-accelerating a Genesis in a straight line! LMAO

    The 300hp/300 lb-ft 335i does a 4.8 second 0-60, with an automatic transmission. I can't see the Genesis doing that.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    A 3-Series out-accelerating a Genesis in a straight line! LMAO Okay,

    335i can do 0-60 in 4.8s, IS350 can do 0-60 in 4.9s, and G35 can do 0-60 in 5.2s, I would love to see the V8 Genesis top those numbers...

    So who's done bumping heads now? ;)

    Also, I never had a Max so it wasn't me who made that statement. However, I wouldn't surprise to if the Max smoked a 325i/328i in a straight line battle.

    Louis...according to Captain...the TL is not a sports sedan because it's FWD.

    The Cap can have his opinion on sports sedans and I can have mine too. I would say FWD is not the "ideal" setup for sports sedans but I wouldn't say FWD cars can't be sports sedans.

    allmet33, divide and conquer won't work here... ;)
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    re 4893: The March '08 issue of Motor Trend, (page 60) states the following as either MFR of MT estimates

    3.3 - 242-hp
    3.8 (not listed)
    4.6 - 375-hp
    0-60 (MT estimates): 5.5 - 7.0
    Curb Weight: (mfr est) 3,700 - 4,000

    4,000 lbs and without a turbo, I can't see a 4.8 sec. 0-60 either.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The Bimmer has a very linear power output - lots of torque, lots of the time. I wonder how linear the power delivery will be in the 4.6L of the Hyundai. Will it be Honda-like (a high-RPM roadrunner, but lazy around town) or like a truck V8 (lots of low-end).

    We don't know yet!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Usually those who drive an IS/3er/C with a family and kids have people haulers like SUVs and minivans in their garage.

    Yes...and there are some of us, that really don't like driving mini-vans (Pep talks with Peyton. LOL) or SUV's. I being of those people. Granted, we do have an SUV, but I only prefer driving it when the whole family is together and we're doing some travelling. If it's just a family outing, I would prefer to drive a sedan that can accomodate a car seat in the middle and a child on each side.

    NOW...you say they are sports sedans...make up your mind Louis!!! :sick: Oh yeah, that wasn't you, that was Captain. My bad.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Okay, okay...you got me on that one. :blush:

    Doggone it...you smoked out my plan! LOL :surprise:

    I'm glad you're one to realize that FWD CAN be a sports sedan, albeit not the ideal set up...on that point I agree. :shades:
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    NOW...you say they are sports sedans...make up your mind Louis!!!

    Show me a post where I stated that the 5er, G8 and even TL are not sports sedans.

    That's right, you can't!

    ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You're right, reading between you and the Captain, I got 'em mixed up...my apologies. :blush: As you'll see, I went back and edited my post. ;)
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Opinions are fine but they are ignorant - you base the whole dealer network on the one closest to you; and, just b/c Hyundai took some funds to advertise at the Super Bowl, you claim they are "bleeding" out their marketing budget.

    Like it or not, the Genesis is going to be marked as the biggest campaign to date for Hyundai in the US, and for good reasons. As prosource elluded to earlier, this is not just for the car itself, but the indirect effect it translates into the brand and the rest of the line for years to come.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    3.3 - 242-hp 264 (regular)
    3.8 not listed 290 (regular)
    4.6 - 375-hp (regular/premium)
    0-60 (MT estimates): 5.5 - 7.0
    Curb Weight: (mfr est) 3,700 - 4,000
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the reason I say this is because of the ultimate (and in my view fatal) terminal understeer that can't be avoided with 60%+ of the weight over the front wheels - add to this the complications of higher HP torque steer (think Maxima on this one) and you have two disqualifications for a TL being a 'sports sedan'. If you've ever driven one, it meets a lot of the requirements - power and a definite 'feel' of tightness and responsiveness. All in all a helluva car that would blow the doors off an Azera and/or an Avalon/Maxima , but also something that falls a little short as well if you grant that something like a 530/535 defines what a 'sports sedan' should be for a vehicle that size. This may 'offend' a whole bunch of folks that spent their hard earned money on TLs, but it is also a question of the laws of physics.
  • ronsmith38ronsmith38 Member Posts: 228
    For domestic cars to lose 50% of their value every three years is not uncommon. That has been the norm for some time.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    opinion: LSs, 7 series, S series are all too big to meet that definition even though they certainly are amongst the finest vehicles available. The 5s and Es OTH are smaller and can and do meet the definition - barely. G8s and Genesis(haven't driven them yet obviously), 300s etc. no way! Something about 200" and 4000 lbs of automobile will do that.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    re 4902: You now take exception and "correct" information just published by Motor Trend that I furnished in response to post # 4893?

    Tell us Guru, what is YOUR source of information?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Hyundai

    It's not hard to find: http://www.hyundainews.com/Media_Kits/2009_Models/Genesis/Press_Release.asp
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