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Subaru Forester (up to 2005)
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I have 47k miles on my clutch, and it'll chatter on occasion when cold, but only on occasion. I can accept that, given I have abused it somewhat, and I do commute to DC in that dreaded B2B traffic.
But is yours slipping, too? That would indicate the clutch is worn out. If it just chatters, I dunno, that's a characteristic I could live with.
I'm younger than you and have probably owned fewer cars, but my old Datsun's clutch went out at about 74k. My Sprint's clutch went out even sooner. My Escort's was slipping at 107k miles, right before it was totalled.
Talk with your dealer and get their take on the situation. But I bet you can milk it for a long time before it starts slipping.
-juice
TIA,
Ed
Your subie has a rear axle and diffy, so weight distribution is a bit more favorable. But the front brakes still probably do about 80% of the braking (usually it's about 90%).
So yeah, that helps the fronts last longer, but they still usually wear sooner.
-juice
I think they just got tired of the members and hosts habitually complaining about the search function! :-)
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
I agree, occasional chatter I can live with, although in this price/performance class, it shouldn't be, and Subaru better stay on it until they really have it fixed. I was pleased that they bumped the tow rating on the '03 MT. I hope I'm not reading too much between the lines.
I dunno, $20k+ for a car is still $20k+. I drove a '93 Plymouth Sundance with an awful clutch for 7 years. But it was a Plymouth, and an entry-level Plymouth at that. I didn't hold it to the same standards that I expect out of my Subie.
ed, et.al.- As for my brakes, at 30k they barely look touched. The Forester has a 55:45 weight distribution empty, so juice's point on the rear braking effort is well taken.
Steve - A search function on an active message board ranks just under the ability to post a message for usability, wouldn't you agree ? Aren't we here to share and find information ?
So enjoy the advanced search while it lasts- usual disclaimers!
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Our web servers see 4-6 million hits a day. It's a lot of traffic to manage.
Hope you get a final release ready soon.
-brianV
That car had clutch chatter since it was new, that got worse as the clutch aged, but was never bad enough to cause me to spend the $1000 to have a new clutch put in, and when I sold it, the car still had the original clutch (115K or so). It also still had the original brake pads! I don't know what Subie puts in their brake pads, but other car manufacturers should get on this one in a hurry!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-mike
I know Juice's is a stick. Is yours as well, ducktapeguy?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Just a thought.
But honestly, I'd rather have a clutch last 115k and beyond with a little chatter when cold, versus wear out at 60-80k miles or so.
As for pricing, the average car costs about $25 grand, so we're talking below average prices, here.
60k service for $450 sounds like a deal, if they do all the stuff you describe. Skip the belt - they only call for an inspection at 90k, maybe change it at 90k if you want to do it early.
Interesting, mike. The rear rotors are smaller and the swept surface is smaller, so maybe the pads are taking more pressure/heat per square inch of surface area, and thus they wear more quickly than the fronts.
-juice
I have had brake pads wear out at 18,000 miles (on old Toyotas), 60,000 to 80,000 on my latest Saab, and on my Forester, they were about 50% worn at 60k.
Clutch experience with my 4 Saabs:
1. Car wrecked at 71k with original
2. Replaced at 117k (80% worn) because other work was being done, saving money later.
3. 90,000 This turbo bought used, so I have no idea what the previous owner did. But there was evidence that it was driven hard.
4. Still original at 125k when sold.
Forester: replaced at 44k chatter, slipping, glazed disk, stiff pedal action.
At 68k stiff pedal action, occasional squeal on release, chatte when cold, but not ready for replacement.
Based upon past experience, I don't think it is my driving that is the problem.
If you spend a lot of time on the highway, you use the clutch less. If you drive mostly around town, you use it more. If you slip the clutch while waiting for the light to change, it wears MUCH faster. If you are slow to get off it after shifting, again it wears faster. If you carry heavier loads, etc.
On the other hand, at 20k+ it's not "cheap" either, which is what I was driving at. (And the median price point would be a good bit lower than the mean, FWIW).
$20k is still $20k - not exactly small change for normal mortals. And for $20k, I expect a smooth drivetrain.
You get what you tolerate.
For example, house build quality is at an all-time low in the Denver area. Why ? Because people stand in line for housing built to the lowest common denominator, and pay top dollar to boot. Discriminating buyers have no negotiating position, because builders don't need you.
I'm advocating a consumer rebellion. Demand better, politely, of course.
bit
"Do you want me to leave the brake dust on the wheels to damage your wheels?"
That wash tries to sell all sorts of add on services, including wheel cleaning, so I just told the saleman to leave the brake dust.
On further review, I wish I'd said that I expected the wheels to be cleaned with the wash that I was paying for.
Since then, I've had these new vehicles, never replacing a clutch:
'79 Fiat X1/9, sold at around 45,000 miles, no probelms (no problems with the clutch, anyway).
'82 Mercury LN-7, sold at 90,000+, engine problems, no clutch problems.
'87 Subaru GL wagon, sold at 105,000 miles, clutch probably needed replacement, but still worked, i.e., no slipping.
'93 Honda Civic, sold at 98,000 miles. Mechanic said at 70,000 miles I'd need a new clutch eventually, but to keep driving it until it started slipping. Two years later, still no slippage.
'02 Forrester. Experience the occasional shudder, but not much of a problem.
I'm guessing on the Subarus and the Civic it was an even mix between highway and city. The city traffic is lousy here; one study has us with the worst traffic for a city under 500,000 people.
FWIW, I never ride the clutch. I use the handbrake to hold the vehicle in place while stopped on a slope, not the clutch. I do use the transmission for braking occasionally, but I use gravity where I can, too. Occasionally I'll skip third gear, i.e. when accelerating down a hill I travel every morning, or somethimes when the next light turns red as I'm just getting started, but I don't need to brake quickly.
Brian: Agreed. Subaru has made incremental improvements to the clutch, but maybe it's time for a full redesign. The one in my wife's 2002 Legacy is much better.
I see from your profile that you tow regularly. If so, I'd avoid the Odyssey. Honda requires a tranny cooler as well as a power steering cooler. Add the hitch itself, and you'll spend an arm and a leg to tow (roughly $1200 installed), plus the tranny has proven to be fragile.
You think $300 clutches are bad, check the Ody threads and you'll find $2-6 grand tranny failures.
Any how, the MPV went to a JATCO 5 speed tranny this year, and is a good choice for towing. So it the Sienna. Wait to see the redesigned Sienna before you bite, though.
-juice
AN had a similar article. They reported 24,000 failures so far.
-juice
I really like the MPV since they put an engine in it. Test drove the ES this spring after the '02's came out. Nice "ride". Because we tow, the 2000-01 version doesn't cut it with the smaller engine. Our H-4 makes more power sooner !
Rumor has it that the new Sienna will be bigger, which would be a negative in our case. The current version "floats" too much. Horrible, unless you like that completely-disconnected-from-the-road-like-a-classic-caddy feeling. Not for me.
I'm keeping an eye on the MPV's new Jatco 5AT. If it holds up in the real world, we'll bite.
OT, need to finish paying the Forester off first, though. Should be out of that loan by the end of '03, 1.5 years sooner than required. Now if Subaru brings a 7-passenger cross-over vehicle to market at the same price point, the whole Mazda thing could go out the window.
We'll just have to see.
I haven't driven the Sienna. The interior seems to be a generation behind the best vans, IMO. Where the folding seat? The side-by-slide?
Subaru does need to fill this gap - but I think it'll be about a year later than you'd need it. I might get that 2005 big SUW myself, if I don't buy a turbo Forester first.
-juice
I called the dealer today to make an appointment. After going through the symptoms with the service writer, she asked me if I had recieved a recall letter. I said I had not. She stated that there was a recall on the O2 sensor and she thought the MAF sensor as well. I told her that I had a 2002 MY and thought the o2 recall was for earlier model Foresters. She said she checked the computer and that our Forester was recalled. (Hmmm)
Is anyone aware of a recall on the 2002 Foresters?
I'm thinking that IF it is either the O2 or MAF sensors that are bad, this could be the cause of my problems. I'm curious what the Crew thinks.
(I'm just a "dumb user" though, so my diagnosis could be way off.) I'd love to hear what Juice, Colin, IdahoDoug and Paisan think.
Thanks all,
Ron
That could definitely be it. The MAF measures air flow in the intake and basically tells the ECU how much fuel to inject. So if it's off, it certainly could be causing your symptoms.
An O2 sensor measures exhaust gases and those inputs are also used by the ECU to make the fuel mixture more lean/rich. Again, this could be the cause.
I'd say they are right on target.
You are actually smart, because you came to the right place to ask that question. Each person has his/her niche, I'm sure you have yours, too.
-juice
Ron
I haven't tried them back to back. I'm still waiting for a turbo. Now there's enticement!
-juice
Spencer
I get a stutter on my 03 Forester clutch on wet mornings. If I add a little more gas I make up for it.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yes, they made changes to the suspension, steering ratio, track width and other tweaks, but overall it handles about the same, perhaps with a tad less body lean.
In fact, I liked the Bridgestone Duelers on my '99 better than the current Yokos, as my Yokos tends to squeal quite prematurely going around corners or turning tightly in a parking lot. However, the '03 is noticeably quieter cruising on the highway.
The real justification for upgrading to an '03 is for the feature and safety upgrades, like the 6 disc changer, leather, auto climate control, etc. If you already have an S, it might not be as justifiable to upgrade than if you have an L and go for an XS.
Elliot
Is it my imagination or are the '03 front bumpers higher than the previous years'?
Thanks!
Len
There was an article someone wrote about the clutch why it can happen in cold/damp conditions. Anyone have that link?
Elliott: you're the first one to notice the steering. I think they quickened the ratio from 19:1 to 16:1. Nice catch.
You may be the only one that actually liked the Duelers, though. Besides snow, my new tires are better in every way.
Chris: yeah, I have Cingular, formerly Bell Atlantic. Service is decent, maybe a little bit better than my wife's Sprint PCS.
We purposely choose 2 different plans because that increases our chances that at least one phone has service. I'd say mine has better coverage, but mine goes to "Roam" before hers does.
-juice
Len
Sorry 'bout that. Hard to keep them straight.
-juice
-mike
mike k
And my Cingular phone is also dual mode. It will depend on the phone you get, the "freebie" phones may be just analog, but the popular ones (Nokia 6120) are dual mode.
It does use Digital first, though, if there is a signal, because that uses much less battery power.
Glad to hear you're happier with your HH clutch, Bob.
-juice
Cingular does seem to roam more around here too. My AT&T phone will go into Extended Area sometimes, but only has gone in Roam once (northern Wisconsin).
-Brian
-mike
I got my wife a deal through work (which expired, but we're grandfathered) and we pay $7.50 per month, 25 cents peak, 10 cents off peak, and the incoming first minute is free!
Our bills are usually in the $12 range, never more than $18.
To bring this back on topic, I got a phone cradle with charger and speaker phone for my Forester!
-juice
We'd like to buy a Forester, probably a red one. Our local dealer has one (and only one) in stock, but it has a scratch on the passenger side rear door - like someone opened it up against a concrete post or something. It is about half an inch long, and goes down to bare metal. Anyway, we are not sure what to do. I don't want to pay $20000ish for a pre-scratched car. Do you think I can ask them to find another red Forester, similarly equipped, in the area and get that one for me? Or should I suggest a price reduction (and how much)? Can they fix the paint like new, or is that not possible? Any suggestions?
Thanks, Tamara
bit
Supply is abundant now. You should be able to get one at about invoice. Where are you shopping (city)?
Also, what model were you considering? Auto or manual?
-juice
I have not pointed out the scratch to them, yet, because we are still not sure of the car we want (Forester/Legacy) or the color (red, gold, or blue). Right now the red Forester is the leading contender, and I was just wondering how to approach things if we decide to go that way. It looks like the best thing to do would be ask the dealer to try to get another red one for us (there seem to be some in our area - one in Kansas, one in Missouri, one in Little Rock).
Thanks for the help,
Tamara