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When you lift the gas pedal to idle the HSD system is supposed to go into regenerative braking mode, the wheels forcing the generators to turn, thereby recharging the hybrid battery. Even moreso, higher regen effect, if you apply the brakes.
So by default the Prius has a "BTO".
It's been reported that shifting the Lexus/Toyota cars into neutral has no affect.
wwest.....well, we know tha Toyota hasn't designed their system the correct way. So, set about doing a redesign. That's what I'd ask Exponent help me to do. If they can't, I'd also ring up Dr Gilbert for some help in that regard, too.
Now what....?
Toyota says 2004-09 Priuses will be recalled to prevent pedal entrapment; an acceleration Incident in a 2008 Prius was reported in California.
That would be NipponDenso or maybe even Denso US. Although the latter would be unlikely since that would expose the specifications, and maybe more, to US legal system oversight.
IMMHO it would be patently foolish to begin a redesign without being certain sure the design "flaw" could be avoided.
Based on all the UA reports, it seems there is a very good possibility that, once the vehicle is in fullfledged UA, turning the key or pressing the button will not stop the engine, likewise shifting the transmission into neutral will not work either.
These are simple steps, if the screwed up computer logic allows them to happen. Lets not kill all the messengers just yet!
Reports are all over the news today. Have not seen anything about this one as yet though.
Thanks for the alert.
Do compare incident of the James family in Colorado as well. Another Prius in SUA/UA incident. Prior to incident husband had received $10,000 scholarship from Toyota, and family were strong advocates for Toyota. Incident and details familiar. Family did not sue.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-03/toyota-employees-quit-college-board-- following-critical-study.html
Guess floor mats just can not be blamed for cause of accident this time.
Here is link again http://www.lohud.com/article/20100309/NEWS02/3090378/Stuck-accelerator-sends-Toy- ota-Prius-into-a-wall-in-Harrison
Well I sincerely hope not otherwise the human race has no future.
Yes, it certainly could be RFI/EMI, but it also could be caused by a fairly simple (once found) and rarely occurring "race" condition within the firmware instruction execution sequence.
Push button ignition is quaint but not safe. The idea of a kill switch is great, but under panic conditions, who is going to remember that the switch exists?
Since there is in most cases lack of a true ignition switch, this is problematic since most manufacturers have opted for push button starting. Leaning on that button for three seconds, is a long time when you are trying to control an out-of-control vehicle. Cars and trucks, especially gas powered have become too computerized and there systems have become so interwoven that you end up with SUA and UA issues.
Now that you mention it, right where the 2008 Prius took off on its own there are high voltage lines crossing the freeway. I believe they are 220,000 volt AC lines. 1000s of cars travel that interstate every day. So that is hard it imagine.
I think you're probably right about software glitches because the SUA seems random just like Microsoft bugs. I initially thought EMI/R, but unless the Toyota is woefully deficient compared to other make electronics, you'd expect to see more UA on other brands if EMI/R was the cause. I find it hard to believe the auto vendors are all that different in their technology.
If I heard the news correctly last night, they indicated that this Exponent firm Toyota is using at one time in the past claimed to find no danger from second hand cigarette smoke. If that is true, then I'd have to think it is possibly one of those "yessir, anything for a buck" type consulting firms, or incomplete or incompetent in their efforts, and I'd then have to discount their positions. Toyota needs to hire a nationally trusted lab like Sandia to assure unbiased and uninfluenced results that the consumer can trust. Personally, I also think they need to move away from automotive type university specialists, whether Stanford or SIU, and more toward computer science and electrical engineering experts like MIT or Cal Polytech.
Finally, I think this assault on critics is a dangerous game, because if the SUA continues after their hard line position, Toyota may lose consumer confidence and trust if the SUA incidents continue. I think they also need some professional PR and marketing help on this matter. Johnson & Johnson came out good after the Tylenol poisonings and Ford did alright after the Firestone tire mess. I think this was at least partially because they didn't play hard line opposition, instead taking every precaution to protect their customers. Toyota seems to be aimlessly bouncing around from floor mat and shim recalls to seemingly outright denial that any electronic or computer issue can possibly be involved. I also suspect they will end up recalling more models down the line further making them look bad because they didn't fully step up to the plate initially, or at looking least incompetent which will hurt their long built reputation. Not smart IMHO, sounds too much like a possible game outcome of short term savings, but long term loss.
Driver said because road curves alot just too scared of the what if's- couldn't take chance turning off car- didn't know if steering wheel would lock or not, and shifting into neutral same. Etc. This was an emergency situation, and he did what he felt was safest and was comfortable doing. People are human.
CHP could smell the burning of brakes he said.
Man was quite upset afterwards. He had taken Prius into dealership 2-3 weeks ago with his recall letter - was told not in recall.
Prius is now at Toyota dealership[.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35787181/ns/business-autos/
Operator: Have you tried putting it in neutral?
Driver: No.
----------------------------------------
Later in the interview, the driver states that he wasn't familiar with that kind of transmission, and was scared that the car would flip..
Let's see..... I'm driving 94 mph, and can't slow down... but, instead of trying to shift into neutral, I'll fumble around for my phone and see if I can call someone for help.... :surprise:
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Spare me.
This is ridiculous hoax.
The Prius has a very goofy shift lever on the dash. Not sure how easy it would be to shift into neutral. I think he was afraid of breaking his car at that point. I am sure being a real estate person he had a blue tooth phone and calling 911 would have been all by voice command. Remember the whole incident of the Cop Killer Lexus is still on San Diego resident minds. He is lucky he was in a gutless Prius. As I am sure the uphill sections slowed him down. The downhills were probably where he was going over 90 MPH.
If he had not called 911 and got the CHP involved. He would have probably gotten the car stopped. Then called Toyota and been towed in and told it was NO TROUBLE FOUND. My suggestion to anyone experiencing UA in a vehicle to call 911 and have it documented. Most likely will be a Toyota as it is very rare in other makes.
Besides which the Prius DOES NOT HAVE A TRADITIONAL "NEUTRAL". Neither the ICE nor the electric motors are EVER disconnected from the drive wheels. The Prius shift lever's neutral position only "tells" the HSD control system to stop driving the wheels.
CHP officer stated he saw the Prius brake lights going on and off, the HSD system is (supposedly) PROGRAMMED to go into regen mode when the brakes are applied. That is the "default" BTO, Brake/Throttle Override, that Toyota is saying is the reason the Prius doesn't need a BTO reflash.
If the control computers were ignoring the brake light switch in favor of the STUCK gas pedal then why would one think it might "obey" the shifter neutral switch closure/position. Worth a try, yes, but.....
Try walking in the other person's "shoes" before being so quick to criticize.
Excellent advice.
I got a feeling a lot of armchair drivers would be in the biggest panic if their car went crazy on them.
Yes, during interviews on CNN today he said he was scared to shut car off as he was afraid of losing control of car with the curves, and too scared of neutral because of car's speed. Noticed today he is much more composed than he was yesterday. Yesterday he demonstrated all the symptoms of a visibly shaken person.
Floor mats were not the problem.
CHP has once again released the 911 tapes. This is good!
I respect your wise words. Totally agree.
People here in USA generally are well known to have big hearts and compassion for fellow man.
Has cruise control been on in all of these cars? It seems like most of the reports from the news have been on the interstate. Is there a certain mileage range that most of these stickings occur?
I really hope they find the true cause and fix it before more lives are taken.
Unfortunately, its not to Toyota, its dealers and customers. I think this is the kind of crap that happens when a company appears to stall and pussyfoot around for apparently several years. Hoax or not, I think Toyota's poor corporate handling of these issues has made them a media focus, the butt of numerous jokes, and a stress to non auto buff or tech type owners (which are the majority by far). Didn't Wozniak tell Toyota several times how the cruise control in his Prius can cause UA? Weren't there an abnormal (compared to market) number of complaints about UA for several years? Didn't State Farm give an actuarial statistical analysis pointing to UA abnormalities on some Toyota's they insured and processed claims on several years ago? As a Toyota owner, I like my cars, but I am getting fed up with seemingly constant Toyota confusion, denial and backpedaling because its raising concerns and hurting my resale down the line. Regardless of the simple "put it in neutral" line and the apparent low probability of occurrence, its getting my wife and kids upset about using the vehicles. If they don't get their act together soon, that resale value may go into a nose dive. Even if half the UA complaints are mistakes or fraud, there seems to be an unusual amount of UA, including on cars without floor mats or that recently had the pedal recall. My message to Toyota and its consultants, spend less time denying and more time resolving. I don't appreciate my vehicles becoming Harvard Business School textbook cases of how not to handle a problem. If Toyota engineers and Exponent can't resolve the matter other than blaming the driver and pedal manufacturer, hire someone who can - and in a hurry please!
Exponent is quite good. It's just what they write - always/almost always is supportive of their client. Exponent is just a defense type firm. What they write could/may be highly questionable considering just the above two references mentioned above.
I RARELY HAVE EVER USED MINE SINCE PURCHASE IN 1996, AND WON'T AGAIN UNTIL I HERE BACK FROM YOU.
JUT FOUND MY FIRST OIL LEAK, WITH 112,000. IT WAS MY OIL HOUSING GASKET AND O RING..FOR $10.81 AT MY LOCAL TOYOTA DEALERSHIP I
BELIEVE I'M BACK TO OIL LEAK FREE DRIVING! THE GASKET HAD DISINTEGRATED AND THE O RING WAS MISSING...WHY DOESN'T A MECHANIC
JUST REPLACE ALL GASKETS AFTER SAY 70,000 MILES? I'VE CHANGED MY OIL EVERY 3,000 MILES RELIGIOUSLY, BUT DIDN'T KNOW MY MECHANIC WASN'T PAYING ATTENTION TO THE DETAILS. ANY OIL LEAKS OUT THERE?
TRY THIS INEXPENSIVE REPAIR FIRST..I GOT LUCKY!
I agree about emergencies being stressful, and our reactions may be different..
But, if one's reaction to a stuck-open throttle (that you are currently driving) is to call 911... then, really, they should take a cab.
Driving 94 mph, in your own car... and, not even attempting to shift into neutral? Total incompetence. This wasn't a loaner car... it was his own vehicle.
regards,
kyfdx
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http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/09/prius_accelerate.html
Here is another reference:
http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNews/idUSN0925486320100310
Toyota as a corporation is acting like a common criminal, they only admit to 20% of the truth.
If you are thinking of making a purchase remember these words Let The Buyer Beware.
I'm very strong faithfully but I'm sorry, that one is comical.
Why would he cause certain damage to his own Prius that he really liked? The logic is not very clear for it to be a fabrication.
I think we are finally seeing the true extent of the UA with Toyota and Lexus. In the past people were towed in and the dealer reset the computer and pushed them out the door.
All these studies by people should include a cross reference study. When a complaint of UA is reported to the NHTSA of UA, go to the dealer referenced and look at their record of the incident. My guess is they would not find a record. Just part of the Toyota cover-up of all problems.