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Brake
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The first episode required new front pads as well. The car vibrates when stopping and this was my only warning to take it in for service only to hear the rotors needed resurfacing. The dealer says the frequency of my rotor problem is not unusual and that there is not any defect that could cause excessive rotor wear. However, the NHSTA has 30 consumer complaints for 99 Fire birds on their web site and 19 of those are about rotor wear. If anyone has any information about what the source of this problem could be I would very much appreciate it. Without automotive knowledge, I am at the mercy of the dealership who says maybe the brakes just got real hot and then I hit a wet spot. Yea right!!!!
You are driving a heavy vehicle and it requires a powerful braking system that may not operate quietly all the time. A light squealing sound as you come to a stop might be slightly annoying but is usually not anything to be worried about. Just as long as you have plenty of material on the pads (be sure to check the inboard pad which wears faster than the outer) you should be fine. OEM brakes are usually the best (quietest, lowest dusting, longest lasting) but I've had good luck so far with Raybestos and Spectra One (Ferodo).
kann2, the trend these days is to make the rotors thinner which not only cuts down on vehicle weight but also unsprung weight at the wheel. The result is that warped rotors, pretty much unheard of 15+ years ago, is becoming common. Still, your car may be one of those more prone to this than some others.
Is your car an automatic? Do you drive in stop-and-go traffic then sit at a light with your foot mashed against the brake pedal? all that pressure applied to only one spot on a hot rotor can warp them.
Also, torquing down improperly on your lug nuts can cause warping of the rotors. Torque them gradually in a star pattern. And, to be extra cautios, torque them to factory specs using a torque wrench.
--- Bror Jace
--- Bror Jace
Shifty, you may be right but that's really odd. Except for SUVs and a handful of special examples, cars tody are LIGHTER than they ever have been and I really can't believe that people are driving much, if any, faster than they did 10 or 20 years ago.
I wonder if it is because traffic is more of a problem than ever before? All that built up heat from stop and go driving?
--- Bror Jace
As far as the brakes go, I'm talking about the post '95 body type, there is really nothing special, except the brake pad thickness sensor that needs to be removed before taking off the brake shoe. But this is very simple, you should see it when you look at your brakes.
Other than that, the caliper pistons should move just plain in and out for the post '95 model, at least according to the documentation. I'm still on the first set of brake pads.
What Mr. Shiftright said is correct though, MB uses softer brakepads.
I went ahead and plunged into the front brake job last week and it was one of the easier disc brake jobs I've done so far. The way the sensors are designed, they give you about a 5,000 mile warning before the pad metal would hit the rotor. But if you wait that long, the sensors would be history too and that would cost another $12 each. Seeing as how I got 38K miles out of the "soft" Benz pads, I guess I shouldn't complain about losing another 3-5K miles..
Once the weather warms up I'll do the rear pads also. Any hints on those due to the hand brake connection ?
Thanks for the info...
Oh, did you open the bleeder valve to protect the ABS while depressing the brake caliper to insert the new pads ? My manual doesn't mention it, but it is a standard precaution for cars with ABS.
I don't remember the section about the rear brakes too much, but I think the parking brake is a small drum brake completely separate from the actual disk brake of the main system. (Working on the parking brake is actually not trivial and requires a proprietary tool, which you could possibly make yourself.)
However, I will verify that it is essentially the same procedure, and translate if necessary.
But I'm wondering, with the front brakes absorbing approx. 70% of the energy during the braking process, are you sure the rear brake pads even need to be replaced ? Or are you just playing it safe ?
Yes, good old "Beck's" on the banks of the Weser river in Bremen, Germany. I was actually born just a couple of miles downstream. (Not that it would have anything to do with brakes...)
The only main difference that I see compared to the process of changing the pads in the front are the two pins that are used to mount the brakeshoe vs. two hex/torx bolts. So you'll need a long screwdriver or a set to remove and place these pins.
Also, if the handbrake does not fully engage after ten clicks on the handbrake pedal, you might want to adjust it, which can be done easily through a hole in the assembly.
If you want to have some real fun however, you can replace the brake elements of the handbrake. Then you'll have to remove the rear seat/bench to access the self-adjusting mechanism for the handbrake, release it and then open the handbrake assembly with MB tool 040.
I called Clair and got a price over the phone that sounded very close to what some of the websites were offering. So since I live about 20 miles from Clair, I decided to go there and pick up the brakes myself. Lo and behold it turns out that they claimed that the price I got over the phone could not possibly have been for the E-class but must of been for the C-class. Yet I distinctly told the phone person that it was an E320, 1996. They didn't make a C320 in 1996.
So wanting to get the brakes done that weekend, I paid the price; $82 for the front pads and about $40 for the rear. Cost me nearly $40 more total than from one of the websites.
I realize that the rears tend to wear a lot less than the fronts but when I say that I will do them when it warms up, that won't be anytime too soon. After all I'm in central Mass. It's cold here until late April. So sometime in May I'll do the rears and they should have another 6-8 K miles on them by then. And they appear to be thinnner than the front pads too..
That's good to know that the handbrake is separate. I used to hate doing rear drum brakes on most cars because of the handbrake cable and mechanism.
I did remove the fluid reservoir cap and in fact actually removed some fluid before I started so there would be no chance of getting fluid on any part of this fine auto... I guessed pretty close; only had to add back about an ounce at most. (yes, NEW fluid!)
Thanks for the info...
actually, I was referring to the bleeder valve on the brake shoe, not the reservoir cap. The idea is that you don't want to push any contaminants back into the ABS unit when depressing the brake caliper. If you open the bleeder valve on the shoe, you force some brake fluid directly out of the system, not back into the reservoir. (But be careful not to get air into the brake system.)
It's really more of a precaution than anything else and is not mentioned in my maintenance manual.
Thanks for letting me know about the price of pads.
What other kind of maintenance are you doing on your E320 ? I've adopted a somewhat lazy attitude. I do the stuff that I like, and let the Mercedes dealer do the rest. They've proven to be quite flexible.
They recently mentioned that my water pump was getting noisy, so I'm debating if I should spend the time to do it myself. It seems to be a straightforward enough job.
That's a good point on the bleeder at the caliper. Well, next time I'll do it that way.
Since mine is still under the Starmark warranty, I don't have much of an inclination to do much of the mainenance myself. However, I was going to try to do the plugs and wires myself. So I bought a set of wires (very expensive - about $65 wholesale through a friend) and lo and behold, it only comes with THREE wires, not six. Before I rip apart the top of the engine I need to know if this is the way it was designed or did I get shortchanged or what? Can you help with that? Does the manual show any of that?
I've done water pumps before on other cars and it is straightforward unless the timing belt is involved. Then it can be really tricky..
The inline six engine has three coilpacks, with each coilpack sitting on one of the sparks. The wires then connect the coilpack to one other 'free' spark. Hence the three wires.
I'm not sure why they didn't use one coilpack per plug, it would have made sense to me. Not having high voltage spark plug wires would have cut down on maintenance and would eliminate the 'retarding' of the ignition current due to the coaxial wire acting as a capacitor. Ah well...
Well, actually...the E320 doesn't have a timing belt, it uses a chain...but that's probably what you meant. We won't have to remove that to change the waterpump, only the fan and the v-belt will have to go. I will probably order a proprietary tool to hold the viscosity clutch of the engine fan. (If in fact the mechanic told me the truth. I will probably compare the noise of my waterpump to the one of a friend's E320.)
So that's why some cars that appear to be similar, can have greatly different brake feel, performance and lifespans.
In your case, I bet the composition of the lining is the biggest difference. One tends to grap more than the other and one could be cleaning the rotor better at a given temperature, preventing corrosion etc ...
It's really hard to say.
Oh, and I've never been a fan of Fords after working on Dad's Mercury Grand Marquis. It goes through rear pads like crazy for some reason.
--- Bror Jace
Is it possible the hub itself is bent? (I'm not sure what you would call it, the hub?) The last set of brakes were completely gone, I mean for over a year.
Some talk about turning in this group. I hate the idea of turning. I mean, I only hate it for some of these newer cars, like Mr. S. mentioned, that have so little meat on the brakes. (Great weight saver, brilliant. NOT!) My previous Integra had wimpy rear disks. (Couldn't turn them once even.) They has some serious grooves in them. I installed new pads, mashed the brakes a few times, and smoothed them right out. It was temporary, they didn't last a long time as they already had 30,000 miles of hard wear (worse because of the metallic pads.) But I don't like to replace expensive rotors just because these huge chain stores, and the dealer say "they're shot." Bah! Put some pads, lube the calipers, and you're okay for a while. Unless rotors are thin enough to explode, right?
--- Bror Jace
Also, you could check the part # on the box for the wheel cylinder. I get wrong parts all the time.
Yea, we kept looking at the cylinder part numbers, they were one part different (left vs. right). Without our own reference, we don't really know.
Thanks, I bet replacing that line will do it.
Are all wheels squealing? Or can it be one particular wheel?
Brakes are not rocket science. Do you have another Toyota dealer to go to? It certainly sounds like your dealer is clueless. I would check to see if another dealer would guarantee this dealer's work. Or maybe contact Toyota, and tell them you are going elsewhere, and expect to be compensated. I would not let them make you return to these bufos, no matter what they say. You need to get this done properly.
First off, my buddy had pulled all 4 shoes out of the same box. I had never done drum brakes on my own, and I wasn't there when he pulled them out, to think to ask him if the shoes were symmetric. He did not know that one shoe was 1/8" longer. One wheel we got right by luck, and the trouble wheel we got wrong. So we reversed the pads.
The cylinder on the binding wheel did not seem like it was sitting right when we first did it, so he got a new cylinder. He also bought new lines. Good thing, the line on the trouble wheel broke off. Here's where it gets good. We bent the new line, and installed it. The nut on the line is very soft. And it took all our effort to screw it into the cylinder. Even using the proper open end wrench, the nut was stripped in no time. Then we used the ol' favorite: vice grips. But guess what? We could not get the fitting far enough into the cylinder to get it to seal, and stop leaking under pressure. BROKE THE CYLINDER. A piece of that cast part just flaked off. I thought that our bend was not perfect 90 degrees, and maybe that strained the cylinder. He just thinks the cylinder was dropped at some time, and had a fracture. So, we had no choice, and we put the other cylinder (new but questionable dimensions) back on. Tried installing the same line, it wouldn't seal. Had one line left. We bent it, installed it. Again, took forever to tighten it down. All the time we worried about breaking the cylinder. We got it down to 2 threads left showing, it was sealed. Brakes worked great. I was ECSTATIC when Jeff told me that we were not doing brakes again. Just takes too many custom tools, and even with them, often involved a lot of hard labor just to remove or assemble parts. And our hands were pure black. It didn't matter what he said, I told him even if he did brakes again, I wasn't helping!
My Celica GTS has ABS, and I'm really too afraid to mess with those. So, I really won't be doing brakes, even disks, for a long time.
Had such a migraine last night, as we finished at 11:30, I didn't eat, just took painkiller and went to bed. Ah, a beautiful spring day today to help me forget!
As my friend once said when I asked him if he's afraid to tackle certain jobs on cars.
"No. Everything bad has already happened to me."
Any comments?
Peddler
Obviously the dealer knows something. Have you checked for TSB (Technical Service Bulletins) on this car? Visit Edmunds Home Page for more info on TSBs.
Most of us know that front brakes do most of the braking work ... sometimes as much as 80% on a front-wheel-drive car which is why many manufacturers are content to keep using drums on their cheaper and/or lower-performance cars.
I've had an Integra and my Dad drives a Mercury Grand Marquis (very different automobiles) and BOTH cars went through rear disc brake pads long before the fronts wore out. I'm not sure why this is the case ... other than the rear pads are often smaller.
--- Bror Jace
As far as Volvo goes, I would think they'd have a great design that would even out the wear period between front and rear.
All I know is my Celica GTS stops 20 feet short of my Integra. Due to the initial grinding, I bet they are metallic pads. Great combination. I cannot wait to see how long these last. OK, maybe I CAN wait.
I'm talking about the channel running between the friction surfaces ... not cross-drilling or slotting.
--- Bror Jace
What could it be ?
P.S. Make sure that the shoes are properly adjusted while your in there. It will make a dramatic change in the way the pedal feels, and will take a lot of the pedal travel out as well.
Good Luck
Leo
The rotors themselves should be mirror smooth, but in fact a few small grooves is not a reason to replace or even resurface them. Many large grooves are not a good sign. Also, the rotor must be flat, so any "run-out" has to be measured with a special gauge. If the rotor is smooth, that doesn't mean it's okay, it could be warped. Last of all, severly burned rotors need to be inspected carefully for warpage and cracks.
As for turning the rotors, you don't have to do this for every little hairline scratch you see in the surface. Some shops oversell on this point.
I am not a mechanic, and thus don't condone this. But on my Integra, the rear disks had a great deal of grooves after 30k miles. I put on a new set of pads, and rode the brakes hard for a couple days. Took the wheels off and inspected, and the rotor was perfectly smooth. The rears are not very beefy, so they probably couldn't take a cut anyways. And replacing the pads was cake. Like I said, not condoning this as maintenance, but on the right car, at the right time, it bought my rear brakes a few miles before any parts had to be changed, and they worked perfectly.
I currently have 160,000 miles on my car. I had rotors put on at 137,500 miles and pads at 152,736 miles. I just had the car inspect this week and mechanic said everything was fine. I'd think rotors would last at least 30,000 to 36,000 miles. My car is a stick so I downshift to slow down and use the brakes less than in an automatic.
Leo
Unless you brake hard or live in a mountainous area, you really shouldn't need new rotors at 36,000 miles.
If the brake was grinding, metal to metal, you would know ... believe me, it's an awful sound and you'd recognize it immediately. (I once had that pleasant experience riding in my brother's car.)
If in doubt, I would really take off the wheel and have a visual inspection of the brakes. (Since your mechanic just inspected them, you're probably fine.) One can easily see the brake pad thickness, but you need a micrometer screw and a dial indicator to measure the rotor thickness and run-out (flatness).
One more thing. Please be easy on the car during the down-shifting. The wear that you save on the brake can show up on your clutch. Brakes are usually cheaper.
Had some maintenance work done and had them check the rotors and pads. MEchanic said that since they were aftermarket pads that they were metallic pads which are generally more noisy. Answer that question. Thanks for your help.
Leo
I had thought metallic pads might be your problem Leo, but I didn't know the above. Knowing that, I think your rotors won't last as long. I don't KNOW this for fact, but metallic pads tend to wear the rotors quicker.
You may notice a greater grinding when you first apply the brakes in the morning. The metallic flakes in the pads actually rust slightly. The first grinding is this pad cleaning itself, then the grinding tapers off somewhat.
I too would think that my current metallic pads, while they last longer, will also wear my rotors quicker.
Leo
Btw, if attempting yourself don't be surprised if you can't get a brake pedal after trying to bleed the system. The first time the pedal's depressed it'll bottom out the master cylinder pistons in their bores, into the pitted and corroded areas where the pistons haven't previously travelled. Usually tears one or both of the piston rubber primary cups, requiring master cylinder replacement. More of a problem with composite aluminum master cylinders.