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Most on this forum know that I have had my issues with Lexus styling blandness for a long time, but I think that this new one in the long wheelbase has finally reached a level of styling that I will not hammer. I have not seen the car in person, of course, but even though I am a huge Euro car fan, especially the German marques, I find this new Lexus LS600hL to be an amazing achievement, IMHO.
Interesting you would reach to a Maybach to upstage it. And, yes, the Maybach is an ultimate HELM, no doubt.
I don't think it will hurt some of us German car fans to give credit where it is due. Our favorite German cars are still awesome and will not be destroyed by this Japanese achievement. But I can not stand by and deny the LS600hL its proper accolades . . . particularly on its official debut day. There will be plenty of time to discover its true nature, pros abd cons, as time unfolds.
TagMan
HA! Thanks, oac. No, I'm afraid not, but if I were to want one I'd have placed myself on one or more of the lists along with ljflx and others. And I would strongly encourage anyone who is even thinking about getting one to get on a waiting list ASAP.
TagMan
Benzster - why? Looks real bad when you need to pull out a $350K car to beat a car that will be less than a third of its price - plus that car is not selling and has been a major disappointment.
I will confess here, since you ask, that I have considered placing a deposit on a 2009 Porsche Panamera, however.
Yes, I agree that the LS and S will dominate. What will Audi, Jaguar, and even BMW have in their arsenals to compete?
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Wait a couple years and the Q will be redone (hopefully as much as the M was redone).
I think you guys may have hyped yourselves up a little to much and were expecting too much. Truthfully though I too expected 500hp, but it would take a miracle to get V6-like fuel economy with 500 horses of any kind.
M
Long over-due!
Even the steering wheel looks much better!
I will be checking out the new LS 460 even though I'm a BMW man.
Call it natural curiosity.
I also agree that HELM's will be dominated by MB and Lexus.
People in this rarified price range usually place luxury over performance, as well they should, and hence, it is not a comfortable segment for BMW to be competing in.
Thanks for the photo link!
Reading the press release, I would say that there is a huge emphasis on luxury over handling. My guess is that once it hits the showrooms, almost any BMW fan is bound to be disappointed by the LS600.
12 cylinder power with 8 cylinder fuel economy sounds enticing enough for me to try one next spring.
Very impressed with the photos.
The LS is the HELM of choice in my community. Shouldn't take long after the release of the LS460 in October for me to spot one.
I read that the new Camry's handling has been improved. I would expect the LS to follow suit.
I don't think anyone is holding anything in the dark on diesels. This isn't a global issue. MB and BMW badly need success in the american market. If there's a marketable diesel car there and I'm a fierce competitor I'd let the world know what's coming. If the gas hybrids get too far away from the pack then this is a repeat of Secretariats record breaking Belmont in speed and distance.
And all this from 7.0L's of pushrod V-8 american muscle. True enough it weighs about 1500 pounds lighter than the upcoming 4th-gen LS, but it's technology is old school compared to the LS.
So Toyota/Lexus can definetely squeeze 20/25-30 mpg out of this more modern powertrain with careful engineering, in typical Toyota fashion. I read in Autocar that Toyota re-engineered the HSD specifically for this car due to it's more explosive technology and higher curb weight over other HSD hybrid-equipped cars.
But I do have one little niggle with it. I can't help but see a little 7-Series backed into the rear fender and 1/4 panel sections. And where the rear roofline tapers off, it is vaguely familiar of the '02-'06 Camry/ES. But this is in no way a dis to the new car. The L-Finesse styling works here best, IMO. The car is definetely a looker. Let's just hope Lexus didn't forget about the bones and rubber department this go 'round. I suspect that the LS600hL hooked up to AWD will surely have a tighter handle on twisties and quick directional changes over the somewhat delayed reaction of the current model, albeit still a step or two behind the best from Europe.
Sure about that? Audi will release a diesel in their new suv, but has not announced it in a sedan. Of course, my mind says that it will come in the sedan, anyway, but they do not want to hurt current ICE vehicles. (I am not an Audi buyer, however). Maybe I am wrong. And then there is the BluTech diesel from Mercedes which will show up in the E-Class and then the GL . . . so what about the S with the BluTech?
Do you think that I am way out on a limb here?
TagMan
True. In addition, and I’m just speculating but the last I read about CVTs, which was quite some time ago, they are not easy to build strong, so maybe it is possible that Lexus reached the tolerance level with the torque it could handle.
Another thing is it probably doesn’t make business sense to make quantum leaps with power. Gotta save room for the sequel.
That's really optimistic. As enthused as I am about hybrids, I have to believe there is going to be no running away from the pack until there is a distinct economic benefit to the consumer. The costliness of hybrids is rampant in the press and I think this has to be overcome. Frankly, I don’t think they can be produced at the same cost as a lone gas engine. It seems to defy logic. At some point we may be forced to drive them, but we will also pay for it.
article here
And If this reads out, then the LS460 could indeed slash up to a full second off of the 0-60 time of the current model, which could mean the gas-sipping/performance beast 600hL would have to be faster still, altho providing better f/e, much in the same way of the RX.
Now quickly summon your dreamgirl before she vanishes in thin air in someone else's LS600hL
Yeah... way too much expectation from Lexus on this super-sedan. But this car is a stunner !!! You gotta see that this car epitomizes the L-Finesse design. Besides, it spots a few other key ingredients - a new 5L V8 motor rather than the 4.6L, and a 2-stage CVT tranny. Both new to Lexus... I suppose when they work out the HP/TQ ratings, a few handling and performance issues, and price it right under $100K LOADED, it should win a few buyers off the V-12 market from MB/BMW/Audi.
It is really amazing tho' that a 380HP LS460, or a 430HP+ LS600hL would have mpg in the mid-20s range... My 278HP LS400 does 18mpg and sometimes that is a stretch. Imagine adding 100 more ponies in the LS460, and the gas mileage actually increases ??? Incredible... That is why I feel contented with a SWB LS460, priced right in the mid-60s. At least I can hope, eh ?
Love is in the eyes of loveholder.
Both lexus and My-bug are great. Only thing is Lexus is like Angelina Jolie while Mybug is like Anna-Nicole Smith
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Well I'll see what I can find out. I'll be at the auto show twice now - once on business and once with family and friends.
ljflx, well said. In the same analogy . . . people have paid a premium for ICE displacement upgrades for years, opting for more power and paying for it, without any benefit to fuel efficiency . . . heck, traditionally we've all ended up with hungrier engines if we wanted more power. We literally paid more for the privilege of burning more fuel.
This LS hybrid is different. You get more power AND greater fuel efficiency. Do the math any way you want to. That sounds like a winning formula to me.
ljflx, you said you are on TWO lists, not just one. Which two?
TagMan
Gosh, the more I look at this LS600hL, the more I like it.
TagMan
I think we didn't see 500hp because at that point the MPG would have made the whole exercise pointless, IMO.
M
Dr Fill hasn't said a word and both the LS600h and LS460 threads on the future boards are very quiet. I sense a great letdown among a lot of Lexolites.
M
Do you really think car executives from MB/BMW would actually be seen physically running beause of a Lexus, no matter how awed/shocked/worried they were about the car? It isn't as if they can do anything about it in a meeting at the auto show.
M
There hasn't even been a real diesel push yet in the U.S. by any of the German luxury brands and Mercedes doesn't even advertise the E320 CDI that much because they aren't yet able to sell it in NY or Cali which are two of their biggest markets. If all the hurdles are cleared and a 50 state diesel is possible MB, BMW and Audi will sell diesels in good numbers. I know Mercedes will, wanna place a gentleman's bet on it?
The only hybrid that I know of that is in constant demand is the Prius all the others seem to range from ok to not selling well. I still don't see the point of a GS450h when the GS460 is going to cost likely less with more power. To have a GS450h to save a few gallons of gass with a much smaller trunk than the already too small trunk of the GS430? Doesn't really make sense to me. Then there is the fact that Lexus will only sell 2K units a year, hardly enough for any other luxury maker to take the GS450h seriously. Now the LS600h may be a different story, but the S600 obviously has nothing worry about nor does the 760Li, but the LS600h does make an interesting alternative to the S550/750Li.
M
Remember how the 4.6L (LS460) engine puts out same HP as the 5.5L in the S550 ? And the LS460 is already in the low 5s range 0-60. Don't let the 430HP fool you... Its the gobs of torque from the battery and the larger V8 motor that makes this car run like a gazelle... Rumor has it that Lexus has the car pegged to the 4.7 - 4.9s 0-60 (S600 range), and an array of gadgets to really be revolutionary, a la 1989 all over again. What was revealed today were bare-bones.... Since the car is 1 year away, lots remain hidden by Lexus, to be revealed much much later... This car will challenge MB/BMW/Audi, but most especially the S600 despite the HP advantage for the latter... Guess we'll see.
They have to balance all this power while trying to get the right MPG numbers not an easy thing to do. Turn down the hp and give up performance to the competition and run the risk of making the car pointless next to the LS460, or turn up the hp and kill the MPG numbers in order to give comparable performance to a V12. The engineering in play here is unearthly for sure, I'll give you that. I can see a good number of S550/750Li/A8 intenders being interested in this car no doubt, it is still impressive though I expected more.
M
There may NOT be a GS460 afterall... Lexus may simply one-up the market by putting the 5L V8 in the new GS and IS, and make these the sporty versions, while the GS450H becomes the cousin to the 2007 GS350 arriving this Fall.
Now the LS600h may be a different story, but the S600 obviously has nothing worry about nor does the 760Li, but the LS600h does make an interesting alternative to the S550/750Li.
Still speculation for now, but something tells me MB is not thinking like you. They will see the LS600hL as a direct competitor to the S600. The LS460L is a match for the S550/750iL, so expect the 600hL to go right against the S600/760iL/A8L... Don't think so ? Just wait and see...
Yeah we'll see because as of right now 430hp ain't gonna cut it against the S600, IMO. If they price it like a S600 then maybe, but we know they won't do that. I suspect the LS600h will be a 100K car, not 140K. I'll even give you that in a sense or in most people's mind it will compete with the S600 because they're calling it a "600" too. I won't get into what I think about that, but of course many will shop both cars, but let me be clear it is the performance is where I don't think the LS600h will be able to keep pace with the S600.
Now a GS500 sounds good, but what would it compete with? Gonna have to be hella powerful to contend with the E63 or M5. Nah I think you'll see a GS460 with 380h to compete with the 360hp 550i and 382hp E550.
The GS450h isn't produced in enough numbers to replace the GS430/460 in that space.
M
I don't recall this at all sine I am no GS fan, but no point to argue this
Ok they're saying "over" 430hp, so maybe 435-450 at best, that won't be "V12-like" performance at Mercedes-Benz. Yeah BMW and Audi (sorry guys) will have something to contend with in a straight line, but the outgoing S600 was a 4.2-4.4 sec 0-60 car, not 4.7-4.9, not sure where you got those numbers..
I said the 4.7 - 4.9s was in S600 range, not exactly, lol ! But you know HP ain't the be-all for performance of a car. The S600 will be the top dog, but expect the 600hL to be a worthy adversary. And it will be at least 20K cheaper to boot... If you can get S600-like power, performance, luxury and ride, with Lexus' reliability, safety and build quality, all wrapped in a hip and fashionable hybrid/AWD with SULEV, and mid-20 mpg.. That would be plenty nice, don't you think ?
But that is my point 4.7-4.9 isn't in the S600's range, the S600 easily beats those numbers every single time and 430hp isn't "S600-like" power its more like 760Li/A8 W12 power. Yes for some it will be a viable alternative, never disputed that. The rest of the usual Lexus attributes aren't in contention either, but as the market proves they aren't exactly all conquering.
M
But its fun to debate without acrimony... Gotta love that...
Big difference there OAC, the S500 had a measily 12hp advantage over the LS430 when it has 290hp and the torque advantage wasn't that much either. I don't recall anyone testing the 04-06' S500 with the 7-Speed either. That C&D comparo used a 5-speed S430 so I'm not so sure if your claim about the LS430 and S500 is correct. The S600 looks to have at least 70hp on the LS600h, not sure about the torque yet which is where Lexus will need to come out strong against the S600.
But its fun to debate without acrimony... Gotta love that...
Yes isn't it wonderful....consider this latest
argumentuh discussion my official "welcome back".M
merc, here's how it is with the hybrids. So far the Prius and the '06 Honda Civic Hybrid are in significant demand. The upcoming Honda Fit Hybrid will with certainty be in significant demand as well. What this shows is that, at least so far, the hybrid option can do very well at the economy tier. The Ford Escape Hybrid and Toyota Highlander Hybrid and the Honda Accord Hybrid have not done well at all and there are a number of reasons. The upcoming Camry Hybrid will prove the REAL hybrid potential in middle ground. If it pulls it off, then the playing field is wide open. If not, then it will show that the hybrids are polarized to the lower tier . . . and upper tier IF,IF,IF the LS600h is successful. Personally, I believe that the LS hybrid will do very well, and will establish a genuine upper tier market. To be seen, of course.
If all the hurdles are cleared and a 50 state diesel is possible MB, BMW and Audi will sell diesels in good numbers. I know Mercedes will, wanna place a gentleman's bet on it?
The Mercedes BluTech diesel is very likely to be available in ALL 50 states. This is what I was mentioning to ljflx earlier when I indicated that I don't want to commit to anything until I know more about diesel availability. I have driven the current 320cdi and it is a fabulous powerplant. The more significant question to this forum is whether or not it shows up in the S.
The next question is what progress has Mercedes made in the hybrid front? After all, Toyota/Lexus has an enormous treasure of experience with hybrid technology. And what car would Mercedes utilize it in anyway, and how many years down the pike, if they do something?
I think it is most likely Lexus will have the advantage in the hybrid arena, and Mercedes could kick some very serious butt in the diesel arena, if they move forward with it soon enough.
TagMan
Oh I know the LS600h will do well, likely selling out for the first few years with ease no doubt. GM, DCX, and BMW already know this which is why they've had to join forces on the whole hybrid issue. You know there is real sense of urgency anytime you get Mercedes-Benz and BMW to work together on anything. They all say they'll have hybrids on sale for the 2008 model year. Either way they won't be going for absolute power they'll be geared towards economy.
I suspect that Mercedes hasn't been able to certify the Bluetecs for NY/Cali type markets yet because all the buzz is indicating that the GL/R/ML/E diesels that go on sale this fall will still be 45-state models only with the certification for the other 5 states coming for the 2008 model year. Dicey information at best at this point.
I don't think any of the European carmakers will ever commit the resources to topple Toyota in hybrids because they believe in diesels and every market but the U.S. re-affirms that belief. Now I do expect Mercedes and BMW to do a diesel-hybrid which will be the ultimate in torque and MPG, but that is still likely 2-3 years off and there will still be the diesel issue to contend with.
M
As of now hybrids are not very practical vehicles.
I would try an LS 600h out of curiosity, but I would also be opening the trunk-probably the place the Lexus salesman would be sitting on.
I don't foresee hybrids outselling their regular engine counterparts anytime soon.
The car is MUCH better styled than the 760 or S600. This is a good thing!
I'm fully confident it has enough features to handle the S600, head-to-head.
If it starts anywhere south of $100k, it is a great value compared to the Germans, especially the S600.
My problem is, if it's not going to be out until next April, why put it now? I don't se how this helps the 460, which isn't out either. It hurts it more than helps it!
I would've done this half-hearted intro in Tokyo, and then the full specs in Detroit next year. Then in Ny next year, you can say "Arriving in showrooms this week!", or whatever.
I would feel better if the said "450+HP". I want to be sure it exceeds the 760, plus gets 60-70% better mileage (real-world).
Since the V12 in the Benz is twin-turbo charged, Mercedes has no intention of losing a HP war, and Lexus doesn't need, or wnat to fight that.
The design is elegant and expensive. They styling is clean, confident, and two steps above the LS430.
The fact that AWD is standard will be big in the Northeast, and Chicago.
IF it's going to be $40k less than a S600, similar in size and appointments, to some better looking, maybe .5 seconds slower, but maybe 10 MPG more efficient, and has all this hype behind it, with a heavy rep to match, the S600 has a much tougher road to hoe.
My pause is more about the marketing this way, at this time. I wouldn't do it this way, with a full year to go, and the 460 not out for 6 months.
The 760 is done, and the S600 is walking out of NY with a several limp!
There's still some Kool-Aid left. And a smile!
DrFill
Maybe there will be an S 4-matic in my future after all! Too early to tell, but I will cross shop it whent the time comes.
Saying the LS is better styled (which it isn't) than the new S-Class isn't going to cut it. This car needed 500hp to make the type of splash you anticipated.
The 760 is hardly "done" because I'm betting the LS600h still won't match the BMW once the road becomes interesting and with almost equal hp ratings I don't see much advantage other than fuel ecomony for the LS600h.
Since the V12 in the Benz is twin-turbo charged, Mercedes has no intention of losing a HP war, and Lexus doesn't need, or wnat to fight that.
If that is what you have to tell yourself to be ok with 430hp then ok.
M
The LS600h is on the hybrid leading edge and from this vista it is interesting to watch. Other than that I think it is uneventful from a sales point of view. The hybrids at the low end are more significant.
Tagman, your Panamera could very well have a hybrid at some point. As you may know, it is expected to share an engine with Cayenne which will be the first recipient of Porsche’s foray into hybrid. I’m thinking Panamera could wind up with a lot of variants. It had better. I mean why limit the market to an exotic? Even Cayenne has 4 variants ranging from $42-112K. So, are you putting your deposit on the $150K Panamera Turbo S or what?
;-)