High End Luxury Cars

tagman · April 2006

Don't misunderstand, benzster. I said "an" ultimate HELM, not "THE" ultimate HELM. Certainly there are higher tiers and other incredible HELMs. The sophistication, however, of this upcoming LS600hL is unique in some ways, and it is historically noteworthy, IMO, and deserves respect for its accomplishments. The long wheelbase LS has good presence and elegance and it represents the most attractive Lexus I have seen to date.

Most on this forum know that I have had my issues with Lexus styling blandness for a long time, but I think that this new one in the long wheelbase has finally reached a level of styling that I will not hammer. I have not seen the car in person, of course, but even though I am a huge Euro car fan, especially the German marques, I find this new Lexus LS600hL to be an amazing achievement, IMHO.

Interesting you would reach to a Maybach to upstage it. And, yes, the Maybach is an ultimate HELM, no doubt.

I don't think it will hurt some of us German car fans to give credit where it is due. Our favorite German cars are still awesome and will not be destroyed by this Japanese achievement. But I can not stand by and deny the LS600hL its proper accolades . . . particularly on its official debut day. There will be plenty of time to discover its true nature, pros abd cons, as time unfolds.

TagMan

oac · April 2006

Good post, Tagman... Well said indeed. In fact, much better than a Lexican will say it. Are u sure u are not secretly harboring buying an LS460L or 600hL ??

tagman · April 2006

Good post, Tagman... Well said indeed. In fact, much better than a Lexican will say it. Are u sure u are not secretly harboring buying an LS460L or 600hL ??

HA!

Thanks, oac. No, I'm afraid not, but if I were to want one I'd have placed myself on one or more of the lists along with ljflx and others. And I would strongly encourage anyone who is even thinking about getting one to get on a waiting list ASAP.

TagMan

ljflx · April 2006

Tagman - are you going to look at buying or leasing the new S or the LWB or hybrid LS? Right now it's scary to think about how inevitable it is that these two cars will dominate this segment in 2007.

Benzster - why? Looks real bad when you need to pull out a $350K car to beat a car that will be less than a third of its price - plus that car is not selling and has been a major disappointment.

tagman · April 2006

You might think this is ridiculous, but I somehow have found myself semi-interested in the diesel market's expansion here, and I want to see just what unfolds. I might change my mind over time, but at this moment that is where I seem to be. I am suspicious that the manufacturers are withhoding some of the information on upcoming diesels, to prevent risking loss of important current sales. Admittedly, I could easily be completely wrong about this, however. Surprised?

I will confess here, since you ask, that I have considered placing a deposit on a 2009 Porsche Panamera, however.

Yes, I agree that the LS and S will dominate. What will Audi, Jaguar, and even BMW have in their arsenals to compete?

TagMan

houdini1 · April 2006

I am curious as to why this auto seems to be so unpopular. I have never owned or driven one but I looked one over the other day and it was a very fine looking auto. In fact it looked as good as any I have seen lately. Some of you experts have the skinny on this car so please share. Thanks in advance.

docnukem · April 2006

I believe most people find the styling rather bland. Currently, though, the M45 has the same engine, a better platform, more interior space, and all the technology one could ask for; all for less money. I did not look at the luxury appointments, but I assume the Q beats the M in that regard.

Wait a couple years and the Q will be redone (hopefully as much as the M was redone).

merc1 · April 2006

Could be but I doubt it, that doesn't happen very often with luxury car makers, in fact the only difference is usually a conversion issue, not specific tweaking for different markets. I can't think of one luxury car that has more power for certain markets and less for others.

I think you guys may have hyped yourselves up a little to much and were expecting too much. Truthfully though I too expected 500hp, but it would take a miracle to get V6-like fuel economy with 500 horses of any kind.

M

hpowders · April 2006

Very impressive improvement style-wise, IMO, judging by those photos.
Long over-due!
Even the steering wheel looks much better!
I will be checking out the new LS 460 even though I'm a BMW man.
Call it natural curiosity.

I also agree that HELM's will be dominated by MB and Lexus.
People in this rarified price range usually place luxury over performance, as well they should, and hence, it is not a comfortable segment for BMW to be competing in.

Thanks for the photo link!

syswei · April 2006

I will be checking out the new LS even though I'm a BMW man.

Reading the press release, I would say that there is a huge emphasis on luxury over handling. My guess is that once it hits the showrooms, almost any BMW fan is bound to be disappointed by the LS600.

hpowders · April 2006

I don't know.
12 cylinder power with 8 cylinder fuel economy sounds enticing enough for me to try one next spring.
Very impressed with the photos.
The LS is the HELM of choice in my community. Shouldn't take long after the release of the LS460 in October for me to spot one.
I read that the new Camry's handling has been improved. I would expect the LS to follow suit.

ljflx · April 2006

I thought you'd be an S-class buyer but holdout till the LS600 release and then be torn between the two.

I don't think anyone is holding anything in the dark on diesels. This isn't a global issue. MB and BMW badly need success in the american market. If there's a marketable diesel car there and I'm a fierce competitor I'd let the world know what's coming. If the gas hybrids get too far away from the pack then this is a repeat of Secretariats record breaking Belmont in speed and distance.

blkhemi · April 2006

It can be done Merc. My Corvette Z06 has 505-hp on tap, and it returns 17/28 mpg, near hi-po V-6 fuel economy. In fact, it gets better fuel economy the M35 and about the same as BMW's 3.0L(5-Series) and Jag's Ford Duratec 3.0L V-6(S-Type).

And all this from 7.0L's of pushrod V-8 american muscle. True enough it weighs about 1500 pounds lighter than the upcoming 4th-gen LS, but it's technology is old school compared to the LS.

So Toyota/Lexus can definetely squeeze 20/25-30 mpg out of this more modern powertrain with careful engineering, in typical Toyota fashion. I read in Autocar that Toyota re-engineered the HSD specifically for this car due to it's more explosive technology and higher curb weight over other HSD hybrid-equipped cars.

blkhemi · April 2006

The new LS is a total knockout. The car makes the current model look dated, not very much so, but it is noticeable.

But I do have one little niggle with it. I can't help but see a little 7-Series backed into the rear fender and 1/4 panel sections. And where the rear roofline tapers off, it is vaguely familiar of the '02-'06 Camry/ES. But this is in no way a dis to the new car. The L-Finesse styling works here best, IMO. The car is definetely a looker. Let's just hope Lexus didn't forget about the bones and rubber department this go 'round. I suspect that the LS600hL hooked up to AWD will surely have a tighter handle on twisties and quick directional changes over the somewhat delayed reaction of the current model, albeit still a step or two behind the best from Europe.

tagman · April 2006

I don't think anyone is holding anything in the dark on diesels.

Sure about that? Audi will release a diesel in their new suv, but has not announced it in a sedan. Of course, my mind says that it will come in the sedan, anyway, but they do not want to hurt current ICE vehicles. (I am not an Audi buyer, however). Maybe I am wrong. And then there is the BluTech diesel from Mercedes which will show up in the E-Class and then the GL . . . so what about the S with the BluTech?

Do you think that I am way out on a limb here?

TagMan

ljflx · April 2006

I'm not following it as close as you so you'd know a lot better than me. But I'd think that what you may be looking at happens in Europe and not here. Still too many diesel issues here for me to role the dice if I'm a manufacturer. If you go down that road with a big investment and it fails than you could become a car version of the Betamax. Risk is high and there is no guarantee of a reward. There;s no low hanging fruit there. That goes in the low quadrant of my strategy circles.

designman · April 2006

I too expected 500hp, but it would take a miracle to get V6-like fuel economy with 500 horses of any kind.

True. In addition, and Im just speculating but the last I read about CVTs, which was quite some time ago, they are not easy to build strong, so maybe it is possible that Lexus reached the tolerance level with the torque it could handle.

Another thing is it probably doesnt make business sense to make quantum leaps with power. Gotta save room for the sequel.

designman · April 2006

If the gas hybrids get too far away from the pack then this is a repeat of Secretariats record breaking Belmont in speed and distance.

That's really optimistic. As enthused as I am about hybrids, I have to believe there is going to be no running away from the pack until there is a distinct economic benefit to the consumer. The costliness of hybrids is rampant in the press and I think this has to be overcome. Frankly, I dont think they can be produced at the same cost as a lone gas engine. It seems to defy logic. At some point we may be forced to drive them, but we will also pay for it.

syswei · April 2006

Is It Real? Yes. So real, in fact, that Mercedes-Benz and BMW executives were seen running from the press conference to convene strategy meetings.

article here

blkhemi · April 2006

With an estimated 380hp on tap, and a class first 8-speed gearbox(1up on MBZ's fantastic 7-Gtronic), this thing may be swifter than we know. If the current model is possessed with 278-hp and "only" 6 foward gears, and scoots to 60 in less than 6 seconds, then it seems unlikely that the new model will be slower. Total curb weights are still sketchy right now, but I don't expect the mainstream LS460 to put drastically more weight on over the current model, especially since Toyota/Lexus has announced the more intense use of aluminum on this car. The hood,roof,trunklid, and all doors are said to be of aluminum.

And If this reads out, then the LS460 could indeed slash up to a full second off of the 0-60 time of the current model, which could mean the gas-sipping/performance beast 600hL would have to be faster still, altho providing better f/e, much in the same way of the RX.

stevekilburn · April 2006

Now thats something. I only hope it has that feeling of being wafted as we are driven with a glass of champagne in our hands.

Now quickly summon your dreamgirl before she vanishes in thin air in someone else's LS600hL

oac · April 2006

I think you guys may have hyped yourselves up a little to much and were expecting too much. Truthfully though I too expected 500hp, but it would take a miracle to get V6-like fuel economy with 500 horses of any kind.

Yeah... way too much expectation from Lexus on this super-sedan. But this car is a stunner !!! You gotta see that this car epitomizes the L-Finesse design. Besides, it spots a few other key ingredients - a new 5L V8 motor rather than the 4.6L, and a 2-stage CVT tranny. Both new to Lexus... I suppose when they work out the HP/TQ ratings, a few handling and performance issues, and price it right under $100K LOADED, it should win a few buyers off the V-12 market from MB/BMW/Audi.

It is really amazing tho' that a 380HP LS460, or a 430HP+ LS600hL would have mpg in the mid-20s range... My 278HP LS400 does 18mpg and sometimes that is a stretch. Imagine adding 100 more ponies in the LS460, and the gas mileage actually increases ??? Incredible... That is why I feel contented with a SWB LS460, priced right in the mid-60s. At least I can hope, eh ?

stevekilburn · April 2006

Why engage in arguments. Even if Maybach is inferior to LS600hL, those of us who want Maybach will get one and those of us who want Lexus will get one too.

Love is in the eyes of loveholder.

Both lexus and My-bug are great. Only thing is Lexus is like Angelina Jolie while Mybug is like Anna-Nicole Smith

oac · April 2006

Here are some pics of the LS600hL AWD.. Amazing pics, if you ask me...

drfill · April 2006

:confuse:

oac · April 2006

MB and BMW execs scurrying to attend a meeting about this new LS600hL... That sayz something, buddy.... Its still a full year away before this car gets here, so plenty of time to improve, refine, copy, remake, engineer, compete, etc.. any adjective that fits. This is a car the competition will *copy*, and I know how that word is a bad word around here, so I say that with all trepidation

houdini1 · April 2006

My neighbors wife drives a RX400H. She drives basically to and from work so it is virtually all city type driving. In the 8 months she has had this auto she is averaging 22 mpg. They were expecting 30 mpg. My point being that in some of these larger hybrids the real world mpg is not always as advertised.

ljflx · April 2006

I know one person that has the RX hybrid and they average 30mpg and well into the 30's on pure city driving. They love the power of the RX with this hybrid though and this is their third gen RX. It's not just about mpg anyway - it's about the power. You pay 4-8K more for a more powerful engine and a hybrid is a more powerful engine. The whole return on investment arguement holds no water with me if you are getting all that extra power. You jump 10-12K if you leap from an S430 to an S500 and you get some extra options and 30 more horses. All of a sudden a hybrid that is fully optioned out plus adds the same 30+ horses has to sell on ROI. It's $8-10K more because it's a lot more car.

ljflx · April 2006

That linked NY Times article puts a $125K estimated price on the LS600H. But from what I've been told it's more in the $100-105K range. Misprint or does the Times really know something??

Well I'll see what I can find out. I'll be at the auto show twice now - once on business and once with family and friends.

tagman · April 2006

It's not just about mpg anyway - it's about the power. You pay 4-8K more for a more powerful engine and a hybrid is a more powerful engine. The whole return on investment arguement holds no water with me if you are getting all that extra power.

ljflx, well said. In the same analogy . . . people have paid a premium for ICE displacement upgrades for years, opting for more power and paying for it, without any benefit to fuel efficiency . . . heck, traditionally we've all ended up with hungrier engines if we wanted more power. We literally paid more for the privilege of burning more fuel.

This LS hybrid is different. You get more power AND greater fuel efficiency. Do the math any way you want to. That sounds like a winning formula to me.

ljflx, you said you are on TWO lists, not just one. Which two?

TagMan

tagman · April 2006

I think it's been very clear that I have not engaged in any argument . . . and I'm quite sure that the other posters would back me up on that. There must be some major misunderstanding or mix-up, cause I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Gosh, the more I look at this LS600hL, the more I like it.

TagMan

merc1 · April 2006

Yeah but the Corvette does weigh a lot less like you stated and it has a manual. Does it still have the 2-3 skip feature or whatever gears it was?

I think we didn't see 500hp because at that point the MPG would have made the whole exercise pointless, IMO.

M

merc1 · April 2006

Impressive yes, but not the second coming the automobile as predicted here so many times. As an alternative to the S550 and 750Li I can see why, but compared to the 760 and especially S600 this car still won't have the power to compete, especially with the 510hp S600.

Dr Fill hasn't said a word and both the LS600h and LS460 threads on the future boards are very quiet. I sense a great letdown among a lot of Lexolites.

M

merc1 · April 2006

I knew you'd go for the NY Times hype. Like running to a meeting today is going to produce a result and a year isn't enough time for MB/BMW to change their hybrid plans to compete directly with (or copy) the LS600h anyway.

Do you really think car executives from MB/BMW would actually be seen physically running beause of a Lexus, no matter how awed/shocked/worried they were about the car? It isn't as if they can do anything about it in a meeting at the auto show.

M

merc1 · April 2006

I'm not sure what exactly you have against diesels, but they'll have a following in the market right along with hybrids. Hybrids are more popular because people are being fooled by the MPG estimates on the window stickers, but then reality sets in when they don't make the same numbers or even get close.

There hasn't even been a real diesel push yet in the U.S. by any of the German luxury brands and Mercedes doesn't even advertise the E320 CDI that much because they aren't yet able to sell it in NY or Cali which are two of their biggest markets. If all the hurdles are cleared and a 50 state diesel is possible MB, BMW and Audi will sell diesels in good numbers. I know Mercedes will, wanna place a gentleman's bet on it?

The only hybrid that I know of that is in constant demand is the Prius all the others seem to range from ok to not selling well. I still don't see the point of a GS450h when the GS460 is going to cost likely less with more power. To have a GS450h to save a few gallons of gass with a much smaller trunk than the already too small trunk of the GS430? Doesn't really make sense to me. Then there is the fact that Lexus will only sell 2K units a year, hardly enough for any other luxury maker to take the GS450h seriously. Now the LS600h may be a different story, but the S600 obviously has nothing worry about nor does the 760Li, but the LS600h does make an interesting alternative to the S550/750Li.

M

oac · April 2006

As an alternative to the S550 and 750Li I can see why, but compared to the 760 and especially S600 this car still won't have the power to compete, especially with the 510hp S600.

Remember how the 4.6L (LS460) engine puts out same HP as the 5.5L in the S550 ? And the LS460 is already in the low 5s range 0-60. Don't let the 430HP fool you... Its the gobs of torque from the battery and the larger V8 motor that makes this car run like a gazelle... Rumor has it that Lexus has the car pegged to the 4.7 - 4.9s 0-60 (S600 range), and an array of gadgets to really be revolutionary, a la 1989 all over again. What was revealed today were bare-bones.... Since the car is 1 year away, lots remain hidden by Lexus, to be revealed much much later... This car will challenge MB/BMW/Audi, but most especially the S600 despite the HP advantage for the latter... Guess we'll see.

merc1 · April 2006

I'm sorry OAC, but I remember you saying the same thing about the GS300/430 when it was first shown, how there will be some last minute change in order for Lexus to dominate. Ditto with the GS450h. Ok they're saying "over" 430hp, so maybe 435-450 at best, that won't be "V12-like" performance at Mercedes-Benz. Yeah BMW and Audi (sorry guys) will have something to contend with in a straight line, but the outgoing S600 was a 4.2-4.4 sec 0-60 car, not 4.7-4.9, not sure where you got those numbers. You really can't go by the official numbers on most German maker's website as crazy as that sounds, they're almost always conservative. 430hp especially doesn't compare to 510hp and the S600 will still likely have the torque advantage at 612lb-ft. We'll see, but I doubt anything else will change with the car other than a finalization of the hp numbers which aren't likely to go up much.

They have to balance all this power while trying to get the right MPG numbers not an easy thing to do. Turn down the hp and give up performance to the competition and run the risk of making the car pointless next to the LS460, or turn up the hp and kill the MPG numbers in order to give comparable performance to a V12. The engineering in play here is unearthly for sure, I'll give you that. I can see a good number of S550/750Li/A8 intenders being interested in this car no doubt, it is still impressive though I expected more.

M

oac · April 2006

I still don't see the point of a GS450h when the GS460 is going to cost likely less with more power. To have a GS450h to save a few gallons of gass with a much smaller trunk than the already too small trunk of the GS430? Doesn't really make sense to me. Then there is the fact that Lexus will only sell 2K units a year, hardly enough for any other luxury maker to take the GS450h seriously.

There may NOT be a GS460 afterall... Lexus may simply one-up the market by putting the 5L V8 in the new GS and IS, and make these the sporty versions, while the GS450H becomes the cousin to the 2007 GS350 arriving this Fall.

Now the LS600h may be a different story, but the S600 obviously has nothing worry about nor does the 760Li, but the LS600h does make an interesting alternative to the S550/750Li.

Still speculation for now, but something tells me MB is not thinking like you. They will see the LS600hL as a direct competitor to the S600. The LS460L is a match for the S550/750iL, so expect the 600hL to go right against the S600/760iL/A8L... Don't think so ? Just wait and see...

merc1 · April 2006

Still speculation for now, but something tells me MB is not thinking like you. They will see the LS600hL as a direct competitor to the S600. The LS460L is a match for the S550/750iL, so expect the 600hL to go right against the S600/760iL/A8L... Don't think so ? Just wait and see...

Yeah we'll see because as of right now 430hp ain't gonna cut it against the S600, IMO. If they price it like a S600 then maybe, but we know they won't do that. I suspect the LS600h will be a 100K car, not 140K. I'll even give you that in a sense or in most people's mind it will compete with the S600 because they're calling it a "600" too. I won't get into what I think about that, but of course many will shop both cars, but let me be clear it is the performance is where I don't think the LS600h will be able to keep pace with the S600.

Now a GS500 sounds good, but what would it compete with? Gonna have to be hella powerful to contend with the E63 or M5. Nah I think you'll see a GS460 with 380h to compete with the 360hp 550i and 382hp E550.

The GS450h isn't produced in enough numbers to replace the GS430/460 in that space.

M

oac · April 2006

I'm sorry OAC, but I remember you saying the same thing about the GS300/430 when it was first shown, how there will be some last minute change in order for Lexus to dominate..

I don't recall this at all sine I am no GS fan, but no point to argue this

Ok they're saying "over" 430hp, so maybe 435-450 at best, that won't be "V12-like" performance at Mercedes-Benz. Yeah BMW and Audi (sorry guys) will have something to contend with in a straight line, but the outgoing S600 was a 4.2-4.4 sec 0-60 car, not 4.7-4.9, not sure where you got those numbers..

I said the 4.7 - 4.9s was in S600 range, not exactly, lol ! But you know HP ain't the be-all for performance of a car. The S600 will be the top dog, but expect the 600hL to be a worthy adversary. And it will be at least 20K cheaper to boot... If you can get S600-like power, performance, luxury and ride, with Lexus' reliability, safety and build quality, all wrapped in a hip and fashionable hybrid/AWD with SULEV, and mid-20 mpg.. That would be plenty nice, don't you think ?

merc1 · April 2006

I said the 4.7 - 4.9s was in S600 range, not exactly, lol ! But you know HP ain't the be-all for performance of a car. The S600 will be the top dog, but expect the 600hL to be a worthy adversary. And it will be at least 20K cheaper to boot... If you can get S600-like power, performance, luxury and ride, with Lexus' reliability, safety and build quality, all wrapped in a hip and fashionable hybrid/AWD with SULEV, and mid-20 mpg.. That would be plenty nice, don't you think ?

But that is my point 4.7-4.9 isn't in the S600's range, the S600 easily beats those numbers every single time and 430hp isn't "S600-like" power its more like 760Li/A8 W12 power. Yes for some it will be a viable alternative, never disputed that. The rest of the usual Lexus attributes aren't in contention either, but as the market proves they aren't exactly all conquering.

M

oac · April 2006

The outgoing LS430 with its puny 4.3L motor has for years competed against the bigger engined S500, so why won't a 430+HP LS600hL go against a 510HP S600 ? Lexus already proved they can go against higher HP German brands and compete effectively, so they figured they do not need 500HP to go against the S600, its the total package - AWD/Hybrid/8-speed 2-stage CVT tranny, mid-20 mpg, etc... But we are getting ahead of ourselves, so we gotta wait awhile and see how all these shakes out...

But its fun to debate without acrimony... Gotta love that...

merc1 · April 2006

The outgoing LS430 with its puny 4.3L motor has for years competed against the bigger engined S500, so why won't a 430+HP LS600hL go against a 510HP S600 ?

Big difference there OAC, the S500 had a measily 12hp advantage over the LS430 when it has 290hp and the torque advantage wasn't that much either. I don't recall anyone testing the 04-06' S500 with the 7-Speed either. That C&D comparo used a 5-speed S430 so I'm not so sure if your claim about the LS430 and S500 is correct. The S600 looks to have at least 70hp on the LS600h, not sure about the torque yet which is where Lexus will need to come out strong against the S600.

But its fun to debate without acrimony... Gotta love that...

Yes isn't it wonderful....consider this latest ~~argument~~ uh discussion my official "welcome back".

M

tagman · April 2006

The only hybrid that I know of that is in constant demand is the Prius all the others seem to range from ok to not selling well

merc, here's how it is with the hybrids. So far the Prius and the '06 Honda Civic Hybrid are in significant demand. The upcoming Honda Fit Hybrid will with certainty be in significant demand as well. What this shows is that, at least so far, the hybrid option can do very well at the economy tier. The Ford Escape Hybrid and Toyota Highlander Hybrid and the Honda Accord Hybrid have not done well at all and there are a number of reasons. The upcoming Camry Hybrid will prove the REAL hybrid potential in middle ground. If it pulls it off, then the playing field is wide open. If not, then it will show that the hybrids are polarized to the lower tier . . . and upper tier IF,IF,IF the LS600h is successful. Personally, I believe that the LS hybrid will do very well, and will establish a genuine upper tier market. To be seen, of course.

If all the hurdles are cleared and a 50 state diesel is possible MB, BMW and Audi will sell diesels in good numbers. I know Mercedes will, wanna place a gentleman's bet on it?

The Mercedes BluTech diesel is very likely to be available in ALL 50 states. This is what I was mentioning to ljflx earlier when I indicated that I don't want to commit to anything until I know more about diesel availability. I have driven the current 320cdi and it is a fabulous powerplant. The more significant question to this forum is whether or not it shows up in the S.

The next question is what progress has Mercedes made in the hybrid front? After all, Toyota/Lexus has an enormous treasure of experience with hybrid technology. And what car would Mercedes utilize it in anyway, and how many years down the pike, if they do something?

I think it is most likely Lexus will have the advantage in the hybrid arena, and Mercedes could kick some very serious butt in the diesel arena, if they move forward with it soon enough.

TagMan

merc1 · April 2006

Yeah I forgot about the Civic hybrid, I was thinking about that awful looking Insight thingy. The Civic is brand new and really hot so I expect the hybrid to be in demand also. Forgot about the Civic, thank you for the reminder. The Accord is just overpriced like Lexusguy stated earlier. For 33K I'd rather have a Passat V6 and burn a little more gas while having a lot more fun.

Oh I know the LS600h will do well, likely selling out for the first few years with ease no doubt. GM, DCX, and BMW already know this which is why they've had to join forces on the whole hybrid issue. You know there is real sense of urgency anytime you get Mercedes-Benz and BMW to work together on anything. They all say they'll have hybrids on sale for the 2008 model year. Either way they won't be going for absolute power they'll be geared towards economy.

I suspect that Mercedes hasn't been able to certify the Bluetecs for NY/Cali type markets yet because all the buzz is indicating that the GL/R/ML/E diesels that go on sale this fall will still be 45-state models only with the certification for the other 5 states coming for the 2008 model year. Dicey information at best at this point.

I don't think any of the European carmakers will ever commit the resources to topple Toyota in hybrids because they believe in diesels and every market but the U.S. re-affirms that belief. Now I do expect Mercedes and BMW to do a diesel-hybrid which will be the ultimate in torque and MPG, but that is still likely 2-3 years off and there will still be the diesel issue to contend with.

M

hpowders · April 2006

Totally agree. Maybe these folks who are so ecstatic about hybrids should check out the significantly reduced trunk space.
As of now hybrids are not very practical vehicles.
I would try an LS 600h out of curiosity, but I would also be opening the trunk-probably the place the Lexus salesman would be sitting on.

I don't foresee hybrids outselling their regular engine counterparts anytime soon.

drfill · April 2006

(This crowd has gone deathly silent....)

The car is MUCH better styled than the 760 or S600. This is a good thing!

I'm fully confident it has enough features to handle the S600, head-to-head.

If it starts anywhere south of $100k, it is a great value compared to the Germans, especially the S600.

My problem is, if it's not going to be out until next April, why put it now? I don't se how this helps the 460, which isn't out either. It hurts it more than helps it!

I would've done this half-hearted intro in Tokyo, and then the full specs in Detroit next year. Then in Ny next year, you can say "Arriving in showrooms this week!", or whatever.

I would feel better if the said "450+HP". I want to be sure it exceeds the 760, plus gets 60-70% better mileage (real-world).

Since the V12 in the Benz is twin-turbo charged, Mercedes has no intention of losing a HP war, and Lexus doesn't need, or wnat to fight that.

The design is elegant and expensive. They styling is clean, confident, and two steps above the LS430.

The fact that AWD is standard will be big in the Northeast, and Chicago.

IF it's going to be $40k less than a S600, similar in size and appointments, to some better looking, maybe .5 seconds slower, but maybe 10 MPG more efficient, and has all this hype behind it, with a heavy rep to match, the S600 has a much tougher road to hoe.

My pause is more about the marketing this way, at this time. I wouldn't do it this way, with a full year to go, and the 460 not out for 6 months.

The 760 is done, and the S600 is walking out of NY with a several limp!

There's still some Kool-Aid left. And a smile!

DrFill

syswei · April 2006

I am personally very disappointed that to get AWD in an LS, I would have to get the 600h, and lose trunk space as compare to a LS460. So there, you have one Lexus fan who is aware of the issue.

Maybe there will be an S 4-matic in my future after all! Too early to tell, but I will cross shop it whent the time comes.

merc1 · April 2006

Sounds very half-hearted to me. Something is missing in the post compared to the posts from a couple days that talked about how the other shoe was going to drop.

Saying the LS is better styled (which it isn't) than the new S-Class isn't going to cut it. This car needed 500hp to make the type of splash you anticipated.

The 760 is hardly "done" because I'm betting the LS600h still won't match the BMW once the road becomes interesting and with almost equal hp ratings I don't see much advantage other than fuel ecomony for the LS600h.

Since the V12 in the Benz is twin-turbo charged, Mercedes has no intention of losing a HP war, and Lexus doesn't need, or wnat to fight that.

If that is what you have to tell yourself to be ok with 430hp then ok.

M

designman · April 2006

Up against the S600 and 760? Do they even sell 500 cars a year in the US between the two of them? I wouldnt be surprised if the LS600h does very well or bombs. BMW can hardly sell a car over $100K. Lets see what Lexus can do. You know, this car is in a totally different realm now, and the people who are used to spending this kind of money are Euro-car buyers. Can they turn Lexican? Are they excited about hybrid tech? And Im not talking about the Hollywood greenies.

The LS600h is on the hybrid leading edge and from this vista it is interesting to watch. Other than that I think it is uneventful from a sales point of view. The hybrids at the low end are more significant.

Tagman, your Panamera could very well have a hybrid at some point. As you may know, it is expected to share an engine with Cayenne which will be the first recipient of Porsches foray into hybrid. Im thinking Panamera could wind up with a lot of variants. It had better. I mean why limit the market to an exotic? Even Cayenne has 4 variants ranging from $42-112K. So, are you putting your deposit on the $150K Panamera Turbo S or what?

;-)

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