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Comments
As for the coil packs, I understand that they weren't made by VW, but do you think the owner's really cared that VW didn't manufacturer them? They cared that they were in their cars. My point was that VW could have handled the issue better initially. I apologize for bring up this situation, but when you're asking someone to fork over $70k+ for an automobile, their expectations are going to be very high. If the dealer doesn't (or can't) handle any warranty issues carefully, you're going to potentially lose a VW customer for a long time, no matter how good your future product line is.
As for extended warranties, the assumption is that you must have an extended warranty if you plan on keeping your car past the factory warranty. That's an additional cost for an owner. Ultimately, when that vehicle goes off the factory or extended warranty, resale will take a significant hit because of the high cost of maintaining such a vehicle.
The reality is that most folks will turn in their leased vehicle so as to not incur any additional repair/maintenance costs (as most leasing customers do). At that point, VW will resell the vehicle with an extended factory warranty included in the purchase price. This will allow VW to solidify the resale value on the car.
Let's assume that, because of the Phaeton's complexity, it has more warranty issues during the extended warranty period. This won't help VW's profitability since they'll be reimbursing dealers to maintain the car.
Look, I recognize that this isn't just a VW problem, but with the Phaeton, it has the potential to be a significant issue given the cars complexity. The Autoweek article doesn't bode well though that is one journalist's experience.
Again, my apologies for my ignorance. I'll stick with my day job.
Great post...You raise some very valid interesting points...
My wealth of knowledge regarding this situation is being shared here and elsewhere to a huge audience...
Touching on the Coil Pack issue...First of all,
this was a world wide problem and epotentially effected millions of 1.8T, V6, & W8 engines...We had one supplier!!! The first thing that was done involvede trying to identify a common thread...like the VIN: Maybe it was just a bad batch...we had no idea...This is just the common sense thing to do, but we found no pattern thus making the problem much more complex and unwieldy.
Once it was determined that this was random and threatening so many vehicles...VWs, Audi, Seats,
Skodas, etc. the manufacturer ramped up to a 24/7 schedule and we contracted with a second vendor who did the same thing...Initially, because there were simply not enough replacement units in the pipeline, it was only possible to replace the bad coils...There was just not enough inventory available to replace 4 or 6 or 8 in one car...The idea was to keep as many cars on the road as possible...Once again, there was no way to determine if the others were even bad...Once there was sufficient inventory our customers were invited in to have all replaced...Certainly it was a horrible problem, but it was handled in the only way that was logistically possible...
Reliability issues thus far have not been a problem, and your scenario regarding the warranty issues is right on...The big difference is that this will be a very low volume automobile...
3000 units annually is the goal, with probably only 10% being to W12...
My experience with the car bears no resemblance whatsoever to that of
any journalist...My Phaeton has had Zero intial quality or performance issues...it has been flawless. The testing that the Phaeton goes through prior to shipment is extensive beyond the imagination...There are 311 new patents on this automobile...The factory was constructed to build this car alone...It will be fine...
Perhaps - my issue was with the VWoA communication (lack thereof) of the problem status and resolution to owners.
- Ray
That included me . . .
Not to change the thread since the follow comment belongs elsewhere, but I noticed you had a Touareg. A carnut friend brought me along for a test drive with me tagging along over Thanksgiving. The Patagonia promotion tells the customer that essentially "we'll be disappointed if you bring it back clean". Well, my friend took it for 3 hours and offroad on some serious trails (he has a International Scout). Damn impress especially the air suspension which helped keeping the underbelly from scraping the bottom. A little disconcerting were the noises coming from the vehicle as the electronics attempted to give us transaction. The tires seemed to be high performance all seasons. I'm sure a set of all terrain tires would have helped greatly. Some of the trails were impassable for Crossover SUVs without low-range. In spite of what the press has said, the V-6 seemed to have more than adequate power.
This same friend LOVES the Phaeton and attended an extended ride and drive on the Phaeton. However, being the cheap yankee that he is (like myself), he's sticking with his 00 Passat with 130k miles. The two of us got into a fun debate about the Phaeton vs. A8.
Whaler...Great debate at the San Jose Show about the two automobiles as well...similar for sure, but very different as well. And, historically there has been very little cross shopping between the brands...typically less than 4%...
And, yes...The Touareg is a fanatastic vehicle...check out "Turbo Tim"'s postings & Pix at the other place...
Warranties are the same, and 5 Large is better in my pocket...
One needs to look under the badge...
Another additional thought is performance. The A8 has the benefit of being significantly lighter thanks to the wide use of aluminum throughout the vehicle.
Weight:
A8 4399 lbs
V8 Phaeton 5194 lbs.
W12 Phaeton 5399 lbs.
There is an 800 lb. weight difference between the A8 and V8 Phaeton and 1,000 lb difference with the W12. Both cars are within an inch in size from each other. How is the acceleration between the A8 and W12? Are they nearly the same? I would think pushing an extra 1,000lbs around would slow a vehicle down somewhat.
I've got to think that the A8 handles better, not being saddled with all that weight while the Phaeton will provide a more luxurious ride.
VW Guild, enlighten us here. Wasn't VW differentiating the two vehicles in terms of their targeted competition: The Audi brand/A8's main competitor is BMW and VW Phaeton is Mercedes S500, right? The VW would be about luxury while the A8 was about performance (though the argument could be made that high performance is an example of luxury).
Personally, I'd spring extra to have the better handling/acceleration from the A8. But that's just me. As for looks, it's a personal preference for most people. I find their looks to be quite similar with the major difference being the grill/taillights and add-on sheet metal at the D-pillar on the Phaeton (which I don't like all that much, but I'm being nitpicky, I know). To me, the Audi looks a bit sportier and more refined.
Notice that I didn't even mention brand prestige at this point. However, dealer care is going to be very important. I don't have personal experience to speak from, but I've got to think that Audi dealers have been used to coddling well-healed customers. I give credit to VW for having designated Phaeton sales people. A smart and necessary move given VW's dealer service in the past.
Avi Driver, good analogy between the Passat/A6 and Jetta, A4. However, I think most people can see that there are some significant differences between these VW/Audisn in terms of performance/options. I do agree that the Phaeton would have a better shot at success if VW had lowered the price and started things out at under $60k and undercut BMW and Mercedes. Of course, Audi dealers would have probably revolted.
There are other choices out there. As much as I'm not in love with the exterior styling of the LS430 (one part 1991-1999 S-Class and one part 2nd generation Avalon), it's hard to argue with the LS's interior, refinement, performance, reliability history, dealer experience. If they'd just give that car a sexy body, it would be a knockout punch.
Thanks Again....I enjoy reading your posts....
Whaler...The fact of the matter is that historically people just do not cross shop the two brands...Do I know why? Noooo...But the number, historically has been fewer than 4% from the folks that study these things...
Aside from that the point that you raise re: weight seems to follow the same theme...The Audi customer has typically been seeking a more sport
performance oriented ride...On the surface that would seem to apply here as well, but the A8L is really "L"...3" longer wheelbase and 1" Longer overall. Of course the main point is one can buy the W12 Phaeton today, but the A8L 6.0(W12)will
not be available here for another year...
Lastly the Phaeton is priced for itself and what is involved building an automobile of this caliber; not to be 'undercutting' the competition, although it still represents significant value in this segment.
Just a thought regarding Service and Customer Care...All Phase I Phaeton Dealers are, by and large, not only meeting but exceeding the expectations of their customers...That is why they are Phase I Dealers...~400 are not...that would translate to 66%. And, it is not just a matter of dealing with a "well-heeled " clientele...ALL of the customers are being treated well. That is why they are Phase I Dealers. Will Phaeton Dealers provide the Phaeton Customer with additional Service? Of course...Just as one would expect to be treated with more care at a hotel where the room rate is $400 v. $125. Just makes sense...
The Phaeton is gorgeous; as is the Jetta.
My gut check:
1.) really nice Jetta, but for about $2K more you could have an Audi A4 1.8T quattro sport. The Jetta needs to be discounted about $3K to get my attention
2.) the Phaeton -- knowing what I know about the Audi A8L is "a value" -- it is about $8,000 less than what appears to be a comparable car. I have owned 1 A8, and I have driven several A8's -- I have only sat in a new A8L. The Phaeton was, of course locked, but the interior should win an award.
All the buzz on this site about the Phaeton being so close in price to the A8L -- certainly may be true -- but in this instance the Pheaton, apparently fully equipped (it had one option, gas guzzler tax) was less money than the Audi would have been.
All the reasons to perhaps go with the lighter Audi are out there and are certainly valid. Yet, this Phaeton looked very attractive -- and it looked high end.
The Jetta was probably the nicest Jetta I have ever seen period. It had what I can only assume is the Audi equivalent of "Ultra Sport" (a mostly appearance package/option).
But I walked away saying to myself "over $27,000 for a Jetta, who are they kidding" -- even though I half expected to say that about the Phaeton based on all the negative comments about the Phaeton vis a vis its MSRP.
Now, the "crowd" of people peering into the Phaeton could be overheard to say just the opposite of what I was thinking -- they were oooing and ahhhing the Jetta without comment about its sticker and saying that the Phaeton should have a price that begins with a 5 ($59,000 perhaps?).
Then they wandered over to my freshly washed 2003 allroad and did the oo and ahh thing all over.
The Phaeton -- the Rodney Dangerfield of cars -- "it just can't get no respect."
I'm not in the market for a car this big -- and frankly I've had my share of post $60K cars (well until a new S6 -- if ever -- becomes available, perhaps) -- but based on this one look-see, there is not anything at this price that even comes close (well, unless you don't value all wheel drive -- which I put at the top of the things I value).
Of course this is just my opinion, I could be wrong.
scenario-------------
vw group ...board meeting 17 th december 2003.
resolved------------
discontinuation of phaeton in v8 form.
rebadging of phaeton v12 .as audi A-S12 T
RATIONAL --DUE TO DISSMAL SALES OF CURRENT PHAETON model versus plan and dissmal sales projection through 2004 -06 ,specially in both domestic and export markets ,it has been decided by management to cut losses and find a solution for high tech plant in dresden.
approved by board pending notification and private notification and indemnification to current phaeton -vw dealers.
the above rationale will allow vw group to recover some of its capital investment in the phaeton venture and provide an easy way out for the dresden plant .
this move will allow vw goup's audi division to bring forward a competitor to the mb s class sedan while ,by discontinuing the v8 model eliminate possible cannibalization of audi a8 sales by this model.
further,by introducing the v12 as A-S12T (touring )it will provide the audi division with an upscale sedan that will compete with the mb s class and the bmw 7 series.and capitalize on and provide strenght for the audi dealer network to move upscale .
target date for change over and implementation of plan ------march 2005.
remember you heard it here first
In my crystal ball, the Phaeton - even though it is an engineering (except the "W"12 engine) and design marvel (interior) - will have its life cycle ended a lot sooner than anticipated. Reasons are numerous, the most obvious one being that its flies right by the luxo-market instead of taking a hefty bite out of the competition.
All the cute talk about the car not having been conceived as a mass production car only goes so far. In the end, the bean counters and stock holders will make the decision as to when the glass factory go dark. Whom to blame, I am not sure, but marketing might have a lot to do with it, here and over in Europe, too.
Relating to another post further up, the A8 is not faster than the Phaeton because it is more lightweight, but because of the VW's obesity. The all-Al A8 weighs in at more than a comparable steel S-Class, BTW...
I bit my lip and smiled and extolled the virtues of my "Phantom"
I guess they need to ramp up the advertising a bit more!!
From what I understand, U.S. VW dealers were initially up in arms over the Touareg name. Their pleas for a different name fell on deaf ears. At least VW didn't use the letter "X" somewhere in the name of the car. They did something different.
Some car reviews have looked for the history of the Phaeton name. Phaeton is the son of the sun god Helios. Not a happy story:
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/p/phaeton.html
Of course, does the name matter if you make the product right?
The Phaeton seemed to arrive in dealers towards the end of November so I suppose 343 cars in that time isn't bad if your goal is 3,500 cars per year. Can the factory handle greater production? Can VW make money on a car at this low production level?
Bottom line, people shop value. They want to feel that the car they bought, whether it was a $10,000 Kia or $100,000 Mercedes provides some kind of "value" or "utility". Value and utility can mean vastly different things to many folks, but that's the sales driver. A hot 2-seater provides styling, excitement, and sex appeal. People will pay $10,000 over sticker for the latest sports car if they feel that the car provides "value" in that they may "value" owning the latest and greatest vehicle on the market.
When someone is looking at a Phaeton, they have to feel they are getting something of value relative to what else is out there. The marketplace will judge VW's execution of value. While Europe has not been a kind and gentle place for the Phaeton, it's too early to judge the Phaeton's ultimate success in the U.S. However, many would agree that it won't be easy.
"Lenscap"...you will need check out the Business
section of your local paper or go on line and learn about currency exchange values and how they have changed in the past 16 months regarding the USD v. the Euro...
"Doc"...This has nothing to do with "Brand Recognition"...It has to do with illiteracy and the inability, of some, to read the word...I guess I heard the same mispronunciation a dozen times at the Auto Show in San Jose two weeks ago...
"Whaler"...Max production at the Glass Factory in Dresden is 150 Phaetons per day...39,000 per year worldwide...And you must bear in mind that we are the 4th largest Automobile Mfg. and that the US is our 3RD largest market...often a hard concept for Americans; we are NOT the most important people in the world, except to us...
As it is, Audi struggles mightily in the marketplace. I've never seen new A8, and I live in a major NE city. Despite the rhetoric from Wolfsburg, the car Phaeton would hurt most will be A8.
"Not only did Audi set yet another record for vehicle sales in 2003, it also reached a special landmark: the Ingolstadt company succeeded in increasing its vehicle sales for the tenth year in succession. Despite the fact that the overall economic situation remains difficult, Audi vehicle sales worldwide increased by 3.7 percent to 769,893 cars. Audi's export quota was around 69 percent (2002: 67 percent)."
A total of 86,421 Audi models were handed over to customers in the USA, the Ingolstadt manufacturer's biggest export market. This is equivalent to an increase of 0.8 percent, making it the fourth record sales year in succession.
In Germany, Audi and BMW run "neck and neck" trading off who is top dog in der fatherland.
It has not been always thus -- Audi, for years remained behind BMW -- over the past decade, however, Audi grew in market share (still behind BMW) while BMW remained little changed.
Audi -- and I don't remember when -- did surpass BMW for home market share; currently I think BMW is back on top, but as noted the two of them now are more or less [non-permissible content removed] for tat. One year belongs to Audi then BMW then back and forth, etc.
Audi is not struggling anywhere, beyond the obvious economic downturn's [worldwide] effects.
VW is doing well too.
Currently Mercedes seems to be taking somewhat of a drubbing in terms of perceived (or real, remember perception is reality) quality.
Leap frog indeed.
Check out this Audi commercial from New Zealand?
http://assets.audi.co.za/experience/multimedia/corporate_frogs_45- sec.mpg
The challenge Audi has historically faced is higher than average depreciation relative to the competition. A8's have historically depreciated fairly rapidly. I don't know whether it's a higher cost of service, higher repair costs to the aluminum body or over complicated electronics, but it is an issue. The older A8's were also pretty stealthly looking (for some, boring). IMHO, the new A8 is pretty damn good looking, especially compared with the 7 and the S class.
As for the exchange rates, VW can't be the only one affected. If VW raises their prices, you'd think the other german automakers would as well. At this point, the only major price increase I've seen is on the W12 Phaeton. The V8 Phaeton and A8 haven't changed, right? Maybe in a month, that will change.
Frankly, I think the german automakers may be losing focus. They are making cars with electronics and motors for the sake of electronics resulting in heavier cars that are subject to more gremlins.
Mercedes & VW are dealing with serious quality issues. I wouldn't touch an MB, just b/c of the horror stories i've been hearing lately, even on the S class.
BMW is entering a strange new electronic world, and again, i'd frankly be afraid to own one (way too complicated for the marginal utility gained.)
If the japanese ever get really serious about driving dynamics in their high-end sedans, i fear for the germans.
i share your feelings.
i was out in the market last month to get a new car and drove everything out there and just fell in love witht he phaeton after discarding the beemers and mb's, and audi , because of their new found complexity and their reliability ,or lack of it thereof.
and looked at the infinity and lexus.........
the vw felt worse and worse the more i drove it.but just love that interior.......
the lexus felt numb........
and guess what ,i liked the new acura tl,but felt too claustrophobic.
the car to beat i think is the coming acura RL wich i am told will be a larger version of the tl.....we will see.
anyhow ,ended up getting the lexus ls430 with the euro -sport -set up. but only because of its reliability record.........already delegated it to my wife........not fun enough.....
so will wait for the RL and see if it is fun or not to drive.
Huh?
I think that means that VW/Audi do not currently offer European delivery but that at sometime in the relatively near future (2 years?) that the European Delivery program will be reinstated.
Have a nice day.
Sometimes, car companies sound like politicians.
Best Regards,
Shipo
My Audi letter did indicate that they "wanted to do European Delivery" right. Having been a guest of Audi in Europe 5 times now (once that they paid for), they put on a "6 star" experience, if there is such a thing.
So, when the cars do finally become available for European Delivery, I will sign up asap.
Your own new car on the autobahn, now just how cool would that be, especially if it is one of these nifty V8 equipped cars. . .
Hope they bring these programs back soon!
Been there, done that, got the Tee-Shirt, can't wait to do it again! ;-)
See ya over there!
Best Regards,
Shipo
Definitely has 'presence'. Interior is enormous, particularly the back seat. Very comfy.
I was a little bit surprised by the leather, it didn't feel as soft or as "expensive" as in the lexus that's about 1/2 the price... and it certainly didn't feel as nice as the bentley's. (It had a hard, cheap feeling. it felt lower-quality than my 1980's-era porsche's leather.) Other than that, it was quite nice.
I still have a hard time picturing this car being sold in any volume, though, since the dealer network doesn't seem prepared for it. I know that VW is supposed to 'limit' this car to the best dealers, and have very particular people within the dealership sell and maintain it.
Yet, when i walked in, it seemed like the same old VW dealership to me. No 'white-glove' treatment. No 'special' salesperson for the phaeton. The dealer didn't even seem that knowledgeable about the car (which was surprising..) the phaeton was just another car sitting on the dealer's floor, alongside the jettas and passats.
On my way out from the dealership, the dealer also shared with me his concerns about the exchange rate problems. He showed me two identical-looking touregs, one that was delivered to the dealership a few weeks back, and a new one.
They were identical -- except for the sticker. The new one was a couple of grand more expensive. The dealer was concerned about his ability to sell the more expensive one, and explain to customers -why- it was more expensive.
Not a happy situation...
The process, as I understand it, will involve going to Dresden and actually ordering your Phaeton to your exact specs...They will custom do just about anything you may want in terms of paint & leathers...Then instead of careening around Europe in YOUR car, you will be provided with a Phaeton to tour Europe in and just return it and fly home...You will then pick up your New Phaeton at your Dealership.
This is the plan that has been on the drawing board for awhile now...Sales will no doubt determine whether it sees life. Most Europeans pick out and up there cars this way today in Wolfsburg and Dresden...The Wolfsburg Plant is like a small Automobile Disney World...
I won't bother with my own experience, but can tell you that after spending 21 hours over 3 days at the San Jose International Auto Show, the reaction from all who sat in her RAVED...The term "Glove Soft" used over and over again...This from MBZ Owners, BMW, and yes... Lexus owners as well...
Also, don't know what you have been reading, but this is not an automobile that is intended to be "sold in any volume"...Why would you even make such a comment? That and "White Glove"...
Puleezzze...
Maybe if someone looking at a Phaeton in the show room "looks" the part of a potential customer, maybe then they will receive the "white glove" treatment.
I would be interested to hear the experience of actual buyers of the Phaeton. Was it what you expected or just another car purchase?
vwguild, when I say "volume" i mean 1000 cars or more. I just don't see it happening for the phaeton.
It doesn't matter how good the car is, my experience with VW dealers stands. I've owned VWs, and Lexuses (lexi?) and I can tell you the dealership experience is shockingly different.
I don't think the dealer was giving me especially 'bad' treatment because of the way I looked (i'm probably a fairly typical phaeton prospect -- older, well-dressed). It just seemed like the person attempting to sell me the car wasn't too knowledgable about its features.
Unless VW has something major planned in the works for their dealerships (physically building out & cordoning off a special section of the stores for high-end cars, having sales people that ONLY sell the high-enders), I really don't see this flying. Especially with an Audi dealer right down the road.
There's a reason Toyota spun off Lexus right from the beginning...
Regarding the "White Glove" item...We received our first two Phaetons...1/W12 & 1/V8 around Thanksgiving...The "teaser" ad on "24" on Fox started at about the same time...I received 3 more V8s the second week of December and took one home while on vacation for the remainder of the month...just to have people see on the road, and very successful I might add! Great reactions!
Print ads started in THE NEW YORKER, and elsewhere, for the Christmas/New Year edition and the first TV spot aired on Saturday Night Live on the 10th of January...
This brief history is important because this is all so new...People who stop and look in the store have all been Service Customers or people looking at Passat, Jetta, Beetle, Golf, etc. and the Phaeton to them is just a curiosity. The serious customers have called and made appointments to see/talk about/drive the car.
I have sold 1 W12 and 1 V8...both last week...Each of the Phase I
Phaeton Dealers should have one dedicated Phaeton Specialist on staff...This individual should be a senior staff member/manager who is thoroughly familiar not only with the Phaeton, but with Volkswagen in general...it's history, products, and position since 1949...All of these elements are vital to the correct presentation of the Phaeton, because it exists because of all of these factors.
If a "line salesperson" meets a Customer with interest in the Phaeton; the correct procedure is to introduce that individual to the Phaeton Specialist, and get back to the floor. If the Phaeton Specialist is unavailable they should secure a name and phone/email address and the Phaeton Specialist will contact the customer to set up an appointment. Once this is done the Phaeton Specialist will drive a Phaeton to the Customer's Home or Office and present it at the Customer's convenience.
This is our protocol...Exclusive? Yes..."White Glove"? I think of a
Sale at Macy's...
I say this because all of your points have been addressed...probably more than once...The emblem, the badge, the Dealership experience...all have been discussed here at length...
My greater concern is that you are making a decision predicated entirely on the label...This would appear to be the case because you said that you merely sat in the car...Is that what you would typically do when making a car buying decision? Just sit in the car? If so; it is a method that is very unusual, to say the least...Spending some time behind the wheel would probably be of some benefit...DRIVER'S wanted...not sitters
This automobile will be a success because it is truly an outstanding vehicle...it is covered by a Warranty Package that exceeds that of MBZ, BMW, and Lexus. Each Phaeton is built to suit which offers a very special level of individuality...It is original, different; but is
also approachable and very Driver friendly...A Real Volkswagen, truly a People's Car; just for a group of people that we had no product for previously...
Granted, at these levels, PERHAPS folks don't make price decisions. And, given the way that money factors, term and residuals can be manipulated, well the lease prices may make cars with MSRP's over $5 to $10,000 apart competitive.
But, the comment -- for the moment excluding Audi -- that the Phaeton did not differentiate itself from the other vehicles you mention is difficult for me to understand. I am not suggesting that you were not sharing your honest opinion and observations; but, what basis do you have for suggesting the Mercedes and the BMW were in this price range.
Now if you are speaking of the Phaeton W12 compared with a Mercedes S500, well perhaps your point is well taken. But even so, if you attempt to configure the "competition" similarly with/to the Phaeton it IS significantly less MSRP, and at this time the other's will not be AWD or if they are (not the BMW, yet anyway) the price points will again favor the Phaeton (assuming that the difference between a $66K Phaeton and an $88K Mercedes are not diminimus [to the millionaire next door].)
So while a person who has the wherewithall financialy to consider a $66K auto, may also shop a car some $10,000 to $20,000 more, isn't such a difference both "real" and perhaps the "discount" justifies the VW name (at this stage of the marquis reputation.)
Over time Lexus -- the upscale Toyota -- has gone from "low price" (relatively) to higher price as it's reputation was built. Indeed, I believe that the name (or is it Honda and Acura) differentiation is for our market. Perhaps Phaeton will be seen initially as Lexus was seen and over time -- if the dealer body "repents" so to speak -- as Phaeton's tide rises so will all the VW ships (to keep the rising tide analogy [or is it a metaphor?])
Check the prices, please -- the spirit of VW's market approach with the Phaeton is to provide equivalent content and performance (plus AWD) with/to Mercedes at a 15%-20% discount.
They appear, to me, to have exceeded these goals.
This, in no way shape, manner, form or regard, suggests that I know or even think that VW will be successful in this market -- it is for certain an uphill battle (and I think a steep hill, at that).
But, VW has done what it set out to do, thus far.
Market success may be more elusive and "if we build it they will buy [sic]" may not actually transpire. Yet, I still give them an A for effort.
Most importantly, I am glad to hear you say that your Drive Experience equalled that of MBZ, BMW, and Lexus...That is the kind of feedback we love to hear...
It seems as though you [vwguild] have a problem with the opinions of all those who dislike the Phaeton and that's fine. But, there is no need for you to get so defensive as if Volkswagen was your own company.
Nail on the head, but I learned to live with it...
As a note, the Phaeton is by far neither the first nor the only German luxo-cruiser that can be custom-ordered - every BMW and MB can be had that way. Only the US market, with its unique need for instant customer gratification, forces dealers to have a few pre-built cars available. In other regions, the salesman sits with the prospective customer, determines which options are right for them, and THEN orders the car. Even though the wait can get long sometimes (on popular cars), most customres don't mind waiting for their special day.
Once again we hear the VW-prescribed propaganda machine go in OD, just take it with a grain of salt.
VWguild, I do think that what we really want to know in this board is how many shares in VW you currently own? The way you express yourself, you've got to have some ownership claim in the company, right? Come on, 'fess up to us! Inquiry minds want to know.....
Think about how boring this board would be if everyone bad mouthed the Phaeton for being too complex, overweight, overpriced (for a VW), having an unprepared dealer network and coming from a brand that has been best known for decades as being "The People's Car". We'd all be sitting around agreeing with each other. How boring would that be?
In other news, relatively positive article on the Phaeton by the way (with the exception of the CD-based (not DVD) navigation system):
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/25/automobiles/25auto.html
They mention the subsidized $700/month 3 year lease payment on the vehicle. How much would the lease be if it wasn't subsidized, $900? Seems like a big discount to me. I'm sure that will certainly help move the Phaeton.
Also, positive article, "Playing With The Big Dogs: VW's Phaeton May Be The Best Big German Sedan For The Money" in Autoweek. Very positive compared with last week's drubbing in the same publication:
http://www.autoweek.com/search/search_print.mv?port_code=autoweek- - &cat_code=reviews&loc_code=&content_code=08279679&- ;amp- ;Search_Type=STD&Search_ID=1847037&record=2&150113026- - 1
Funny how the same publication can say two very different things in such a short time frame.