By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
the car is amazing absolutely zero problems I'm enjoying the car more and more every day its awesome the power the handling the comfort etc. I'm trying to find something negative to write here but sorry I almost cant find it. well other than the cup holder's are weird and the nav is not so good thats pretty much it for now ...
What was that???
Meaning they were only able to talk to me via phone and not tracking location. It turns out the dealer only had to program a minor thing, that took 10 min, and it was solved. Then again, it wasn't like it was broken or defaulted, only a tech programming issue.
You will be pleased to know that for the past two days I have had my Aubergine Phaeton at the Monterey County Wine Growers "PASSPORT WEEKEND" at Chateau Julien in Carmel, Ca.
Plenty of ooohs & aaaahs!!!
High points...Fit/Finish, paint & leather, Sound System, Roominess & Comfort, & Warranty...
I think I finally found something to complain about the Phaeton's "A PILLARS" of the car is very wide and I find that when I want to make a turn especially a left turn its a bit obstructive of my view, well thats that for now,,, but I would still not give it up for anything else out there!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i drive in europe a lot ,including some rallyes.
the old audi 100 was just great at 144 mph .very steady. one of the finest i have driven on the road at this speed. no drama.
very close to a 911 in feeling secure.
the new audis are not that good. they wonder some and it is not the same feeling.nervous and they make me the same.
i have driven passats and they are so-so at hi speed but hard to get over 133. the v6. very similar in feel to the audi.
the 4 cyl. takes forever to go from 95 to 115 and can't hold it.
but ,let's face it. here in the us the best you will do at a steady rate is 80 to 85 mph.
i.e. interstates .
and unfortunately ,most of the good german cars have a sweet spot between 85 and 125. which renders them not appropiate for our roads.
the 911 has a sweet spot at 95 to 145.-it has moved up in the last few years.i have been in one at 164 in the rain , i was not driving at this time.i was an inocent passanger begging the driver to slow down...........but the car did feel secure.a c4 , in belgium .
hope this answers your question.
as far as the phaeton ,i am still reading the posts and we will see if i buy it.
by the way ,
the vw guy thinks i throw "darts"---i do not .i call it like i see it.
i only clarified.
further,mercedez and bmw make cars in the same price range as the phaeton-----and they do not have to apologize for the poor handling by refering to the car as a touring car---------
mb and bmw do not plow into turns ,nor do they go out of control in turns...........and they are not 911's.......
if i pay the type of money that vw wants for the phaeton, which i almost did , had it not been for that fateful second road test when the car refused to turn and plowed straight ahead ,and i may yet do...(buy it ,that is )......i want the car to perform in the same league as the mb and bmw because the vw cost the same as those cars..........and i do not want to hear excuses that the car is a touring car ........
so.life goes on and in the meantime i have just read a report from vw stating that phaeton sales are "below expectations in europe " "it has not met goals "and overall profits are down as are sales of the new golf."........some german dealers are returning golf inventories to vw and refusing to give it floor space .
it is a shame because they used to make a good product.
i recently bought an air cooled vw engine bored out to 2160 cc's and putting out 170 hp with 156 lbs of torque at 5600 rpm.--put it in a 1955 550 spyder thus almost doubling the original porsche engine hp of 90. what a nice product they used to make.
withdraw from this dialogue...
M
ctdw
This car is second to none in the large luxury car market in handling and especially in performance the pickup is a dream,,,
Thanx
I am not certain if the expectation is that they will neither understeer nor oversteer -- well they all understeer. For the most part this is due to the FWD bias and some intentional engineering.
Oversteering cars were thought to be "less forgiving" than understeering cars -- and there aren't many oversteering inherent cars from any mfg "in the market."
Sure there are FWD and RWD and of course my favorite AWD cars -- and in a perfect world the AWD cars would be designed with nearly 50 50 weight distribution and some suspension architecture that would produce nearly neutral steering and mild understeer "at the limit" to prevent "your mother" from performing unintentional power slides.
Oh, that -- in part -- was accomplished in 1984 with the first Audi 4000 quattro to grace North America. The "plowing" VW's and Audi's have steadily improved (especially the AWD versions) with each new generation. The engineering thrust is to further this progression away from heavier understeer to mild, milder, mildest understeer. But it appears that at least some plowing will be a "feature and a benefit" that these cars will have. Further "electronic" taming will continue as well, but the thought of a radical reduction in understeer, possibly returning to the high oversteer tendencies of the rear engined, rwd Porsches of yore makes me shudder.
Having been through 4 driver training schools, I can attest that most of us can actually cope far easier with a car that tends to "plow" than one that tends towards tail happiness.
My 1997 Audi A8 and my subsequent A6 V8's all have "some" understeer -- perhaps some would legitimately contend that my definition of some understeer would be their interpretation of "plow." Beats the heck outta me.
A Phaeton probably has "reasonable" understeer -- it is also probably progressive, predictable and due to the suspension, tires, wheels, chassis, electronics and a partridge in a pear tree probably has pretty high absolute cornering capabilities in comparison to other $66K+ RWD German cars.
Bring on a comparison on Dry, Wet, Snowy, Icy, Gravel and otherwise less than perfect road conditions -- I am sure the Phaeton and its Audi cousins will fare admirably.
You say potato and I say po taa to -- and what's his name says potatoE! It understeers, it plows -- by degrees they are the same meaning. Don't you think? Or don't you?
Of course, this is just my opinion, I could be wrong.
One other technical note. Someone once made the point that AWD helps you get going but does nothing to help you stop. This is important because RWD traction control corrects a vehicle's path based on biased braking of the appropriate wheels. AWD tends to compensate by applying more power to the necessary wheels. The result is that AWD provides better acceleration into to curves but not necessarily better handling especially under braking conditions.
The point is, AWD CAN be the best of both worlds -- but it often isn't. The need for AWD is often stated to be highest in snowy and icy conditions -- and there is ample evidence that this is largely true.
The real advantage of AWD is, however, apparent on perfectly dry roads. Let's start with the counter intuitive: improved gas milage. Above a certain speed (generally 40MPH) that has to do with wind resistance and some other "math" and "mass" type calculations, AWD is, apparently, better able to deliver improved MPG than either plain FWD or RWD (assuming the added weight of the AWD components is around 150 pounds) -- other factors being ~ equal. An AWD vehicle can be made to oversteer, an FWD vehicle is virtually "impossible" to be made to oversteer. And, although an RWD vehicle can be made to understeer, it is difficult to make an RWD car behave like an AWD car no matter how good the electronics are.
So, the upcoming Audi approach -- SHOULD be superior to the current quattro approach and maintain its abilities over the deliberately imbalanced (RWD biased) approach used by other manufacturers.
Reality -- beats me -- some prefer the BMW, and now Infinity approach and can argue long and loud that this approach is superior to the Audi/VW design. It is interesting to note that the approach used by the Audi engineers was eventually "outlawed" as an unfair advantage in many racing circles.
You decide.
I'll take the AWD vehicle -- from almost anyone -- over either the FWD or RWD vehicles. But, if I lived in SoCal, perhaps I would be unaware or unconvinced of the need.
The Phaeton since it is new never was RWD or FWD it was born AWD. The weight distribution is front biased -- but, from my experience, the understeer designed into the Phaeton, while perhaps not admired by all, is probably one of the most prudent choices any car company can make in developing a car for mass consumption.
Many of us cannot fathom why there is no manual transmission option. But, we are screaming voices in the wilderness.
If you can find a spouse (wife in my case) who will only drive a manual transmission, marry her (or him) -- because they actually "get" it.
Those who like other choices are, no matter how this sounds, NOT wrong -- simply lacking in experience.
And, although my wife would never be caught dead driving an automatic, I, on the other hand, would be pleased to be gifted a new Phaeton, in spite of its lack of a row your own option.
I say AWD forever, RWD and FWD NEVER.
But, these are just my possibly flawed opinions.
In 2000 the NADA did a study that found that fewer than 10% of ALL cars & trucks sold in the US were equipped with a Manual tranny, and more startling... 25% of ALL Porsches were equipped with Tiptronic Automatics!!!
I have no idea what this figure would be today, but I doubt the trend is going the other way...
Obviously, cars are built to the audience...This is a 2% automobile; with a very specific demographic, one that, generally speaking, would not seek in Automatic in this type of car...Their Porsche, yes; their Phaeton, no...
And, actually the 6 Speed Tiptronic works very well with the V8...I wish I could speak to the W12, but quantities do not permit the luxury of
having one as a weekend 'driver'...
This is exactly what I had suggested earlier, somewhat different dynamics for such a vehicle, but certainly not a flaw. This theory was dismissed. I too think someone is trying to drive it like a sports car, which it isn't. If you truly want "handling" in a full size sedan you have but 3 real choices, a 745i Sport, S55 AMG or a XJR. Still none of those will handle like their lighter weight mid-level (5/E/S-type) cousins.
Oh, add the Maserati Quattroporte to that list also.
M
My point to Peter (VW GUILD) would be to say "amen" -- I recently went to my favorite full-service car wash. Not one of the "high school" young men and women could drive our cars. The owner of the car wash had to come out and move first my car, then my wife's. I will cut the owner some slack, but when she got behind the wheel of my car, she started from a full stop in third gear which of course mean much clutch slippage engine revving and "you know what is burning" smelling.
More's the pity.
=====
I should, perhaps, not be quite so adamant or black and white in my statements about AWD, FWD and RWD.
Speaking generally and NOT for the exotic car driver or even pro-am type driver, but for and about the typical driver (and I suspect that most of us are within the range of "typical"): cars that have some understeer are characterized as "more forgiving" than cars that have oversteer.
In an ideal world, perhaps "neutralsteering" would be best. BMW (among others) certainly do strive for such handling characteristics. FWD gained popularity for several reasons -- but as I recall it was brought to market first and foremost as a packaging and cost containment measure (and one by one the American "big three" shifted from RWD to FWD over a now widely known period of time). FWD for many was thought to be a great engineering solution for those who see winter -- in that it did provide the ability to go in the snow often without any change in tires.
Many flaws were uncovered (rediscovered?) pertaining to FWD -- and RWD only companies made every attempt to inform the buying public about the performance compromises of FWD (compared to RWD).
The true performance drivers would hardly be caught dead driving an FWD car.
Minivans (most FWD) and the morphing of pickemup trucks into SUV's and then AWD mini-vans came to be. And the buying public said "this is good."
Audi (and others) developed AWD systems for their previously FWD-only lines. AWD systems (some great some not) came to a market willing to purchase them.
Somehow AWD -- from time to time -- was able to be associated with higher levels of capability AND performance.
And a couple of decades later we seem to, once again, be embracing RWD (or at least offering it more and more across the lineup of new and pending cars). Yet, even such companies as BMW and Mercedes (both being known for their support for RWD and their ridicule -- now past tense -- of AWD) have announced plans for more and more AWD vehicles throughout the line (Mercedes will offer virtually all cars in their lineup in AWD "soon").
Much of these events have little to do with absolute performance -- first and foremost. Indeed, some of these events were due to manufacturer's desire to increase market share -- and the market appears to want AWD -- and not just in SUV's, pickemup trucks and mini-vans. Some manufacturers (like Audi) did see AWD as a way to improve absolute performance, however.
I suspect the reason does have something to do with the AWD's general image of being able to "go anywhere" (even though 94% of the buying population never goes intentionally off roading!)
AWD is not a holy grail or panacea for all automtive engineering problems necessarily -- but, IMO, it could be (and with the number of intelligent car companies working on it, lately Infinity for example, it might actually become the "drive train Rosetta Stone"). The availability and sales of AWD vehicles continue to increase.
Generally, I stand behind my statement AWD forever and RWD, FWD never -- but all the points made pertaining to such matters as balance and other engineering and design criteria do merit inclusion in the discussion.
I happen to subscribe to the belief that we are continuing to march toward designing, manufacturing and selling more and more AWD vehicles of all types and less and less FWD and RWD vehicles.
The customers are speaking with their dollars and Euro's and Yen -- the world over.
I have read postings that proclaim "I would rather have a great FWD or RWD car than a poor AWD car."
Me too.
I suspect that some customers, however, just "assume" that four driven wheels "must be better" in rain and snow and ice and other nasty conditions.
One by one I see my neighbor's driveways, the nation's highways and the Automotive Journalists increasing the number of AWD vehicles they own, drive and write about.
I will go so far as to say, even if it were proven that AWD was inferior to RWD (some might argue that such proof exists), it would hardly make a dent in the shift from two driven wheels to four driven wheels on the cars being made and sold now and for the next few years (at least).
The "history" of quattro does state, BTW, that quattros were "outlawed" in certain racing circuits due to the fact that they had an unfair advantage. I suspect that since this history is an Audi Hardcover Book that it could be biased. But the text does seem to support "factually" that this was the case.
Other considerations -- Pikes Peak, for example -- also come to mind.
Merchandising and marketing, eh?
Here is the deal on Phaeton pricing...At this point there are about 400~ V8 Phaetons in the Port of Houston for the 200 Phase I Dealers & for the Phase II Dealers that will be coming on line...In other words if your Phaeton Specialist has something in his inventory that will work for you a price of $1200.00 or so over Invoice should be acceptable to the Dealer...
The key here is that we need to get these cars on the road and then enjoy the word of mouth enjoyment that you will certainly provide...Read
REFERRALS...
The reason that I mention the Inventory in Houston is because the Phaeton that you buy can be easily replaced.
At 36 months with 15K Miles you are looking at a
60% residual and a factor of 0.00125 @ Tier 1.
On the other hand a custom order requires constant attention from the Specialist and higher margins will result...
It does understeer -- as noted, understeer is not bad (but it could be) and oversteer is not good (but it could be, too). Most cars do, by design, understeer somewhat.
The Phaeton will not run through the cones on equal footing with a smaller sports sedan or sports cars. The Phaeton is -- by all accounts -- quite roadworthy. It is all wheel drive and the AWD system it uses is one of the best.
Drive the Phaeton, heck, compare it with its target rival a similar sized, equipped and contented Mercedes (which I believe would be an S430 4matic).
Then, check the price of both V8 equipped and contented cars (and make certain you are comparing the AWD version of the Merc to the VW, for a more apples to apples look-see).
Both cars will understeer -- both are quite competent at being cars of luxury, safety and relative "sportiness."
The VW will be big time less money.
They both will depreciate faster than an ice cube placed on a hot grill will melt.
You may also want to, to keep everybody on their toes, compare the Phaeton to the Audi A8L. The Audi "should" be more nimble (it's made of aluminum) and might be a tad quicker (for the same reason). The Audi is intended to be a bit sportier than the Phaeton.
Perhaps the BMW 745 will handle with less understeer than the rest. It is RWD -- which MAY make it less desirable when the roads are not perfect.
They all cost more than the Phaeton when the content is "equivalent."
Year round, IMHO, the BMW would be outmatched if you live somewhere where there is a change of seasons and there is "wetness" of some kind and at some temperature. This is not to say you may or may NOT prefer the Bimmer -- it is just to suggest that if you are this deep into Phaeton consideration as to be here on a Phaeton town-hall message board, you are probably already somewhat predispositioned to "like" the Phaeton and may be looking for differentiating characteristics. Different does not always mean better. There is certainly a lot of evidence that could lead you to conclude that in this case, however, different does mean better.
You should now have plenty of evidence to make an informed, but still largely emotional, decision.
You know you want one.
rsholland "AWD car sales will double by 2008!" Jan 25, 2004 11:14am
you also better make friends with your gas station attendant 'cause you will be seeing him quite a bit, but its worth it......
Its a great car do not even hesitate, it is a living room on wheels and a beast under the hood and a stealth for flashiness...
good luck shopping and go yanks!the ny all stars
have read all the postings and what i tried to say with the --plowing --statement is yes ,understeer, but to an extreme .
why ?
because the car is very heavy and forward momentum cannot be brought to a quick change without the correct underpinnings and tuning.
this is where the phaeton is lacking.
i am not knocking the car .................i am not throwing darts.......
i am just stating a fact.........
and ,as i have said before i may buy one.
i am currently in negotiations with a dealer to sell me one for a few bucks over actual invoice........but i am holding back a little given the latest revelations from vw in the german press ,and what i expect may be significant "deals" on the phaeton in the very near future.
vw ,as you all have read is in deep ......
and they may have to do something quick as the japanese are eroding their market share not only in the usa but also germany.........
the one i am being quoted on has special paint ......but who needs this.
However, knowing the Audi/VW heritage, I say, with all due respect to your opinion's value -- which I place on par with everyone else's -- I find it hard to imagine the Phaeton's understeer is as pronounced as it obviously must feel to you.
Maybe driving Audis and VW's since 1977 has numbed me to their traits -- but I read your words to mean that the Phaeton lacks any "sensation" even remotely akin to nimbleness.
I do not disbelieve your interpretation, and now you know that some of us find it disconcerting to think that the word "plow" and Phaeton go together.
We took a 45 Degree turn at about 70...did a slalom manuever at about 60, and I am still here and not a scratch on my Phaeton...
Oh yeah, it is like a SNOW PLOW...I still can't get over the winter handling!!!!
The best!!
range. Especially for one with the VW badge.
M
Enjoy.
NOTE: Right click and save (10mb video)
http://home.comcast.net/~nessal/TopGear-VW_Phaeton.WMV
I'm looking to get some opinions on the new Phaeton. I have an 02 Mercedes S430 coming off lease shortly, and the Phaeton is among the vehicles that I'm considering as a replacement. First off, how has initial quality been? While my Mercedes has been utterly reliable, I was a bit disappointed with some of the panel gaps and exterior fit. Both my son's 02 GTI and my daughter's 04 New Beetle have been good in this respect, so I'd expect the same from the Phaeton. Next, how has dealer service been? My local VW dealer(Legend AutoRama in NY) has been great to deal with, but they're not a Phaeton dealer. It seems as if I would have to buy from Soverign VW.
I did get the opportunity to drive the Phaeton at the W Hotel Event in NYC, and I loved it. The looks, the quality feel of the interior, and the handling were first-rate. I'm curious, however, to see how these cars are holding up for real owners. As a side note, if I do purchase the Phaeton(which I would like to, in light of the fact that it's much less expensive on the lease than the A8 and Jaguar XJ8), we will be an all VW/Audi family(my wife drives a '99 A6). I appreciate your feedback
-Lee
I know nothing about Sovereign in Hicksville, but if they are a Phase I Phaeton Dealer; they should be good...
Please advise of options that hold your interest for additional info...
Really, really pleased thus far. You can tell that this car is largely built by hand. I can't comment on dealer service as of yet because this (technically sophisticated) car was delivered with zero factory defects!
Thanks for your time,
-Lee
I remain impressed by this, the ultimate people's car.
M
How many have they sold so far??
M
Interesting note that the 5th generation Golf already has incentives in Europe.