"interested" in the new for 2005 AWD & V8 STS??????
Are you suggesting that you might actually consider (not only) a non-Audi, but an American car? Seriously? Or does someone need to check your coffee? - Ray Startled & Shocked . . .
Yep, that is what it means -- I just read a test report of the new Chrysler 300C Hemi (which also will be available with AWD) and the STS at least looks like it would merit my attention.
My coffee is regular, not unleaded and I am, as far as I know, fine.
I will certainly be looking long and hard at the new A6 (and the S4) -- I've not gone over to "the other side" yet.
But, the temptation of a "European" STS with a V8 for $48K is "out there" -- and, after reading three reviews of the 300C (which is said to show its Mercedes E class DNA, strongly), I figure my almost blind loyalty to Audi should be, at least, tested -- before I once again pony up for Audi #30.
I know it is hard to be discussing these things in terms of "value" -- but frankly, I at least have to satisfy my curiosity by at least "considering" a $40K Chrysler 300C and a $50K Cadillac STS before I leap into another $55K+ Audi.
Let me say this, the American's I noted, "caught my attention."
Also, I must add, the article in yesterday's USA Today (Money section) about the drop off in sales of European cars is at least some encouragement to shop a little bit, this time.
Probably the result of my mood -- which is probably the result of another in a seemingly endless stream of cold (39F) wet and overcast days here in the Spring (of my discontent) in southern Ohio.
I'll probably wake up soon and say "what was I thinking?"
And, to underscore my comment and ? about what even comes close to a $67,500 Phaeton -- well the Audi A8 certainly comes close (and for some, I am certain, exceeds the Phaeton's allure) -- but it is, practically speaking at least $8,000 more than the Phaeton -- so my "bargain" comment still stands. And, there is no way I could put the Lexus in the same league -- simply because it lacks AWD.
Perhaps you are sensing a trend -- the 300C and the STS provide some level of interest because they will come to market with available AWD -- something I will not be without.
Granted that up front costs of the American vehicles are less than European cars, but don't forget that the German brands include free scheduled maintanence.
While a comparable Chrysler will be less than an Audi, I, for one, will never buy another Volvo (priced similarly to Audi or VW) because of the terrible reliability problems I've had with Volvo but also because of the very high scheduled maintanence costs with the Volvo.
Mark, I seriously doubt you'll like the 300C enough. I thought the same thing but came to realize that I spend more time inside the car than outside looking at it. 300C might be a decent alternative in terms of performance, even a little faster actually. But it's almost night and day when it comes to available technology, craftsmanship, materials used, touch and feel, etc.. Once you are used to Audi/VW level of quality (interior), it's very difficult to like any domestic "alternatives." I sat inside the Cadillac CTS, 300C, MB, and BMW. Nobody beats or matches Audi in this department.
I suspect you are right -- but it may at least be a hoot to see what a hemi feels like; and the Cadillac (having only seen the CTS-V) might be a contender, too.
Between the Audi and VW family, I am virtually certain, however, that you are right -- the two Americans, nice as they may be, just might be pale imitations of the feel, fit and finish I have been used to for so many years.
Oh yea, it is a sunny and warm day today -- I knew my lapse might have something to do with the weather.
I think the phaeton is a true competor to the usuals...........S500, XJ8, 745I, and so on. AS for the 300C, this is a true sedan that benefits from MB, it has a great style, its confortable, its priced great and its gotta HEMI!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now im starting to think that the 300C is a better value, its half the price!!And for the new STS, that looks great too!
yes, you have a point of it being a chrysler, but a lot of the car is from mercedes, personally, i dont care about name brand too much, and i think chrysler has a pretty good name, in some areas, but of course mb, bmw, jaguar, and the rest are better. maybe chrysler can higher its rep with this new 300.
For those who are disparaging the 300C, have you driven it or even sat in it?
I haven't, yet.
I suspect (and hope) the 300C is far beyond what we've come to expect from Chrysler. I would not rule it in because it is made by Chrysler. But I would not rule it out either.
I agree with you. I have not driven the new 300's. I wouldn't buy one just from a style standpoint. But, as most people do, they base their opinions on the history of Chrysler. That history is not that shining. But, I will say that their cars are improving and probably wouldn't be any worse than VW. Mercedes benz Quality can only help.
Anyway, not sure this car can be compared with the Phaeton.
I find it amusing that Chrysler is being compared to a group of vehicles, German automobiles, and their history is not that "shining" when the entire, German auto industry, which has historically been known for it's "German Engineering" is consistently near or at the bottom of the reliability list.
The Japanese auto manufactures have consistently kicked both the US and ALL of the European automakers in this category.
This is probably why they command such a great resale value and why I will continue to purchase these vehicles.
Disclaimer: I own an Acura and a VW and I have taken the W12 Phaeton test...
I find it amusing that Chrysler is being compared to a group of vehicles, German automobiles, and their history is not that "shining" when the entire, German auto industry, which has historically been known for it's "German Engineering" is consistently near or at the bottom of the reliability list.
The Japanese auto manufactures have consistently kicked both the US and ALL of the European automakers in this category.
This is probably why they command such a great resale value and why I will continue to purchase these vehicles.
Disclaimer: I own an Acura and a VW and I have taken the W12 Phaeton test...
how do you find it amusing? Chrysler has always been a main player in today market, so why can't they get into the market with something hot and fresh? Who says the japanese kicked our asses? That seams like a load of crap...... lol, although they do have great resudial value, something that us Americans dont have.
What I meant was that someone was ripping on Chrysler and speaking as if their engineering is somehow substandard to that of the German automakers.
In the last five years the German auto groups have gone from excellence to equal with the US autos as far as reliability. Subsequently there resale has reflected this drop.
What I meant was that someone was ripping on Chrysler and speaking as if their engineering is somehow substandard to that of the German automakers.
In the last five years the German auto groups have gone from excellence to equal with the US autos as far as reliability. Subsequently there resale has reflected this drop.
. . .gave what I thought was a pretty favorable write up of the Phaeton. They noted that VW is "willing" to wait for the Phaeton's success to build even if it takes two or three. . .GENERATIONS. . .for the car to "pay its dues" "earn some respect" or words to that effect.
Talk about Japanese patience -- the Germans have moved to 11 in this regard, if this is indeed the lengths they're willing to go to to "build" their reputation in this market.
Also, new mini-Phaeton (aka Passat) is pictured in either this or the new Automobile magazine (I can't remember, I went nuts at Borders and bought one of every car mag they had) -- as the song says, "we're movin' on up."
you know, ever sense its debut, i haven't seen one phaeton on the road. Its weird, because i dont even see audi A8s either, and i live in So cal. they got everything here, people love their cars so much and are so concerned about what they are driving. I find it rather odd. Is it because it is not popular or is it just that so cal people dont like them? And besides, does it matter if were off topic? Car guys, as we all know it, aren't perfect, so why should the environment?
. . .there are Phaetons here, not a bunch, but more of them than Audi allroads and less of them than A8's.
I take this as a good sign that the Phaeton is, at least, selling some cars here in River City.
I have, however, never seen one on an Interstate highway -- just tooling around town. And, one would think, they only come in Silver and Dark Silver metallic, based on greater Cincinnapolis, where I live.
The lease deals on them, however, are incredible (but they are for 48 months). Yesterday's paper had them going for $649/mo for 48 months (full disclosure, I didn't see the annual milage -- but I imagine it was either 10 or 12K for that kind of term -- 48 months.) There was a rather small cap cost reduction required, but it appeared that some of that actually came from the dealer, not from the customer.
My allroad is more than a Phaeton -- but I am on a 36 month 15K lease -- acquired 11/01/02 -- things have changed.
The Phaeton, I still say, is a bargain if anything at this price point could ever be called that. No way this kind of deal is on an A8L.
Primary emphasis at VWOA in Auburn Hills a/o 4/23/04 is selling 04 Passats & Jettas...new B6 & A5 platforms just 2 Quarters away from the start of production, and with Spring approaching Touareg is getting a boost as well...
Phaeton sales seem to be holding their own without a great deal of Corp. assistance for the moment...I took another custom build order last night...Customer just fell in love!!! AND he arrived at the store driving a 4S Porsche!
I do not think that that your use of the term "bargain" is entirely appropriate...I am, however; reminded of this homily...'We know the price of everything, but the VALUE of nothing'...
Does anyone here recall the chairman of VW's reason for creating the Phaeton? He said they were not looking to make money on Phaetons ... they wanted to sell more V6 Jettas! But look at what he has done. Instead of spending marketing dollars on TV or magazine advertising (notice that EVERY car magazine starts with 6 pages of GM ads? Ever look at world-wide production of cars and notice that VW sells more cars than GM for about 4 years now? (no, not trucks/vans/SUVs but cars)) [back to topic] instead of burning marketing money on transient ads that you forget within a day, VW has decided to BUILD advertising, sell it customers, and let them drive it on the road. Every Phaeton sold, profitable or not, is advertising for VW just like Cadillac is advertising for GM; Lincoln for Ford. I think its quite brilliant. It will certainly help win "mindshare".
Personally, I think the real reason for the Phaeton is childish retaliation. In creating the "A-class", Mercedes told VW: "We can and are moving into your bread-and-butter -- volume economy cars" I think that the Phaeton is VWs way of saying: "Okay ... but as of now, we can and are moving into your bread-and-butter -- high-end luxury cars"
Even if the Phaeton were US$80,000 it would be a bargain. I want to like the Chrysler 300 with its huge Benz content, cool looks, and incredibly upscale (for Chrysler) interior. I sat in a Pacifica within 5 minutes of a 300 Touring, and the 50% more expensive Pacifica looked like junk inside in comparison. But anyone paying money for a Chrylser knows they're not getting much of it back down the road. Regardless of quality ratings, Mercedes has the highest resale value in the industry ... better than the reverred Japanese knock-offs from Lexus.
Look at Cadillac. Some neat looking new products, for sure. However, my Dad's friend sold his '91 Cadillac this week ... for $500 ... Canadian (~US$335). A '91 Golf is worth 5 times that much.
In 1992 a loaded Eurovan camper had a list price of CDN$37,000 (I bought my VW 1-ton double cab truck that year for C$19,000) and currently, those vehicles, with over 100,000 miles on them, sell for 50% to 70% of new value ... 12 years later. My truck is worth > US$20,000 in california 150% of new value. I've seen Audi All-roads that cost new $62,000 going for C$55,000 to $57,000. A GM SUV depreciates more when you drive it off the lot than an Audi SUV depreciates in 3 years of use!
A large study rated VW resale #2 behind Benz. My wife's '91 Passat sold for $6500 with 240,000 kms on it when it was 8 years old. I believe that's 50% depreciation over 8 years. A Toyota Celica depreciates 50% in 3 years. The only Toyota that really holds its value is the Land Cruiser. Up here a 1985 Land Cruiser Wagon with Diesel power fetches C$15,000 which will buy you 2 dozen '85 Camrys (if there are that many still on the road)
Look in your newspaper's classifieds for import cars prior to 1980 ... it looks like only 3 brands were ever imported into the US: Mercedes, Porsche, and VW. They last and the resale values back it up.
VW's biggest problem in the US is dealers, at least that seems to be the concensus here.
Its amazing that they even sell cars in a country where customers are more concerned with myth than reality. In Europe, where they can drive cars at 150 MPH legally and people know what goes, what doesn't, and what cars people survive in when bad things happen at 100+ MPH, VW is #1 in sales. And Germany builds more vehicles than Canada and the USA combined!
VW will sell more cars in China in the next 24 hours than they will sell in the US. They have 38% market share there. Parts of the country have mountainous highway grades so steep that in the past only Mercedes cars were seen, because other sedans didn't have good enough brakes. Now VW is #1 in the world's fastest growing market. In about 3 years time, VW will sell twice as many cars in China than in the US.
You really have to ask: what is their incentive to put much effort into a market where people buy huge SUVs and then complain about the price of gas? They must think that North American's are all insane or just idiots.
A 5500 pound car with a 12 cylinder engine is an outrageously impractical device for personal transportation. It totally defies logic. And I don't think they'll be able to build them fast enough to meet demand!
I'm afraid you're wrong on MB resale values. There was a long story in the Wall Street journal a few months ago about resale values. MB resale values are among the lowest in the luxury industry right now. Lexus is about 4-6% points higher and if I remember right - the highest or right near the top. It was a big unmistakable and unmissable story if you read the WSJ. Pretty embarassing too. The LS I just leased bears this out with a 58.5% residual after 3 years and 45k miles. I also did my own testing - using Edmunds TMV - of the 2001 models since that was the last time I leased. Lexus held up very well - near 60%. MB was in the 53-54% range. It bore out what WSJ was saying.
And the MB residuals built into the 2001 leases (I shopped the S and Lexus LS extensively) were 65% but missed by 10-12%. Someone's taking a bath on those. That is why I checked back. Lexus was 60% in 2001 and came in a few percentage points higher based on Edmunds TMV. The Phaeton has no record and though I think its a great car on paper I doubt that 60% will hold up. The Audi resales are terrible. The only way to move the Phaeton right now is with low money rates or high residuals. No one seems willing to pay a buck a month. VW also caught bad timing with the strength of the euro.
When comparing lease residuals, you are looking at wishful thinking of the manufacturers/dealers/banks. This number does not necessarily reflect actual market value, it simply states what the contract is about.
A few years ago, I had leased a Lexus RX 300 with a contractual residual of, I believe, 65% after 39 months. When I signed, I thought that this was rather optimistic, but ideal for me as the customer. At the end of term I offered the bank market value at roughly 52%, and they declined. Upon further inquiry, the nice lady told me that she knew about the actual value of the car all too well, but that their loss was covered by some sort of insurance only if they offloaded the Rex through an auction - at any price! I was willing to pay as much as they finally got for the car later, but was turned down since losses in private party sales were not covered under their insurance.
The residual on the Phaeton might be 60%, but we will only learn what it's really worth after the first ones hit the real market in about 30 months - and that holds true for all residual assumptions on new models.
I agree - that's why I checked what happened in 2001. Residuals have come down as interest rates came down. If they didn't the whole world would lease. If interest rates rise you'll see residuals rise with them. The two are wed at the hip.
Thanks for the update. I was basing my rant on figures from last fall. I don't read the Wall Street Journal, or most the technical Journals that I spend hundreds of dollars on each year. I've been immersed in my business for a few years, and reading about cars online is my way of unwinding late at night. The connection between interest rates and resale values is interesting but logical due to the substantial percentage of leased vehicles. This is also in line with cash purchase prices of used vehicles which would go up in inflationary times (as new models rise relative to the used ones) since interest rates are typically tied to inflation rates. The net result is that you're better off purchasing or leasing a new car at times of higher inflation because the value will hold, but if you don't have cash for the purchase option you should lease. But at times when rates (and residuals are lower) you should stay away from new cars all together, but if you do buy one purchasing may be better because the low interest rates work in your favour.... ? Does that make sense?
Buy what appreciates, rent what depreciates -- advice from my financial advisor, 1977 -- the year of my first auto lease and my last rent payment on an apartment.
If the money factor is 0% and you intend to keep a car, well I guess, under that circumstance, buying a car over x months would be prudent. Likewise, so long as the money factor is below the stimulative interest rate, that too would be a good time to "pay over time" -- but I suspect that logic would apply to either buying or leasing, but hardly ever paying 100% cash upfront.
If one believes that a Fed funds rate of 1% is stimulative to the overall economy and that a 3% rate would be "neutral" -- well that suggests a prudent course of action if there is some choice in which interest rate you may select.
I have friends who can buy and keep -- with low maint costs -- cars for 150,000 and more miles. If you are such a person, well, then a lease may not work for you.
I have not had either the inclination or good fortune to own/lease cars for 150,000 miles. At a certain point in time, all my cars, life to date, seem to require upkeep costs that made/make me feel that I was/am making new car payments and driving an old car.
Thus far, therefore, I have leased -- I am 52. Perhaps, as my 65 year old friend has done, I will buy my next car at 0% interest for 60 months -- if such interest rates are available at that time, that is.
My experience with lux car deals is that it is a better deal to lease and buy after three years than it is to buy upfront. In 2001 I looked seriously at the A8, S-class, LS430 and even an E430. In the worst case it would cost you $1,000 more to lease and buy after three years. That's not a bad insurance policy to ensure you're getting a quality car if your intent is to buy. In the best case you'd save a few hundred bucks. I simply imputed interest on my upfront money tied to treasuty note rates and did the same to the stream of lease payments. Its amazing to me that people don't count the lost interest on an upfront car payment as a cost of ownership when comparing to a lease. I had one guy tell me that leasing would cost him $7500. When he told me his deal it was pretty easy to see that the $7500 was equal to three years of interest on his upfront payment.
I think this is all part of the lease trap. Once you are hooked on getting a new car every three years you have a hard time desiring to buy a car and hold it for 6-8 years. This is even more true with the technology changes and more importantly with the added safety features put in the cars. If you see a new Corolla riding around with more technology and safety equipment than your 2 or 3 year old $70k+ lux car you feel cheated. Thus you look at a lease vs. buy and take the lease because you take comfort in the fact that it is nearly as good or a better deal after three years than buying up front. But how many buy the car after three years? I lease also because I own a business and I can deduct for taxes. But I also lease my non-bus car for the ability to change without any resale problems.
I don't think the lease vs buy pricing works down market but since I've only leased lux cars the last 12 years I haven't tested it.
Depends on how long you keep the car as to which is better.
If you buy a car and keep it for 10 years you will probably spend less than half as much money on car payments as someone who leases for 10 years. Remember there is inflation during the 10 years so those last few years of leasing will be relatively high.
Cars these days last 10 years easily, and 200,000 miles is also easily obtainable. No need to lease a new car every few years. Now if you are bored with a car after a few years that is a different matter.
I am more of an E class buyer and have an order for a 2004 E55 that is about to be delivered, but I have just realized that I can purchase a W-12 Phaeton for less money than this E55. I know these two cars are apples and oranges but wondered what you all thought of this comparison?
Also, does anyone know of modifications available for the W-12 that will upgrade engine output closer to that of the Bentley GT which share the same engine? Lastly, is satellite radio available for the Phaeton?
I agree with what you said in spirit -- but, my experience with German cars is that beyond 50,000 miles they become "breathtakingly expensive" to maintain, so much so that a "permanent car payment" is ~ the same as buying and maintaining and keeping one for 200,000 miles (I understand the apparent contradiction). Yet, the difference is that by making a permanent car payment I always have a car that is younger than 3 years old -- and I do like the "current technology."
So, if I could make $600 lease-payments [forever -- or for 10 - 12 years for purposes of this comment] and always have a new car that always had 100% warranty and 100% maintenance included; I have come to be convinced that it is the same as the person who buys (in cash or on time) a new car and keeps it 10 - 12 years and pays to maintain and repair it.
$600 lease payment (with no up front out of pocket cash) x 12 years = $86,400 (no mainenance or repair bills).
a $50,000 car (assuming 0% interest and no money down) would be $833.33 a month for 5 years. If the factory full maintenance and warranty were for 4 years or 50,000 miles (whichever came first), I would be out of warranty and beyond free maintenance at about month 39 or 40 with 20+ months of payments to go. Assuming "normal" maintenance intervals @ 10,000 miles, I would have three more intervals (assuming nothing broke) before the car was paid for. Most of these cars will require a new timing belt @ 60,000 miles and beyond 50,000 miles is where wear and tear takes its toll on struts, major fluid changes, power window motors, etc etc etc etc. Assuming these three additional service intervals (due to the timing belt change, primarily) were in total $ ~ 2,000 (or $100 per month) -- I would have put out $50,000 in payments plus $2,000 in maintenance (not to mention almost certainly at least one set of tires for yet an additional $700 at least [including mounting and balancing]) for a grand out of pocket total in 60 months of $52,700.
In the same time (60 months) my lease payments would have been $36,000 and there would have been no other expenses and I would be driving new technology.
Ok, so for the first 60 months (in this mythical 0% interest financing world -- which will soon end, don't you think?) I would have paid either $52,700 (if nothing and I mean nothing broke out of the warranty period) or $36,000 - a difference of $16,700.
Now, as we progress forward, the $833 carpayments cease and the lease payments would soldier on. And, if nothing breaks for the next 110,000 miles, the purchased car turns the tables on the "balance of payments."
We could extapolate further and determine regular scheduled maintenance, tires, and even a fudge factor for "something that breaks" -- but even if nothing broke, the one driver would have a car, at one point, over a decade old while the other driver would never have a car more than 2 model years old.
A Phaeton, to use but one example, would somewhat alter the size of the payments, but the spirit of the event would not change. Moreover, if you believe, as do I, that the new technology is coming at shorter and shorter intervals and that this new technology improves the efficiency, comfort, safety and performance of the cars they are placed in -- well -- I'll just keep right on making those lease payments, until or unless the time comes that I can justify a lump sum outlay equivalent to the price of my then current dream car.
Try as I might, I cannot even dream of a Phaeton going 150,000 miles beyond the original factory warranty without significant maintenance costs and without at least one "expensive" component going south.
One of my co-workers 103,000 mile old Dodge Durango, "lost its water pump" over the weekend -- serpentine belt, some hose, pump, tow and labor = $600. Moreover, since 100,000 miles 3 or the 4 power window motors had to be replaced. Several other, mainly minor, but 3 figure each, repairs have been happening "every month" since about 90,000 miles.
Now, I am not holding the Dodge Durango out as the shining or tarnished example of "how it should be" -- this just seems all too typical. And, I can hear the anecdotes being penned as I write this about all those super reliable Japanese (and probably Korean) cars that people love to write about.
Well, frankly, I will read them, I will believe them and I will share with you, that I have NEVER known anyone personally who has had this kind of reliability with any car from any manufacturer -- my one buddy with the 1997 Acura, sorta comes close at 130,000 miles but the fact that it needed a paint job (the thing rusted badly) and a new transmission and a new starter motor and the "door close" motors had to be replaced (all out of warranty) kinda makes my point.
It's pay now or pay later -- and when you pay later, it just seems like your paying the same amount (in aggregate) as the guy who gets a new one every 36 months and lets the next owner "enjoy" the outgoing car in its old age (financially speaking).
Of course, that's just the way I "rationalize" it.
My boss has an older E55 and really likes the power. The Phaeton is a much larger car than the E Class. The interior is a more elegant - a little less sporty feel than the E55. I can't say from experience, but I would expect the Phaeton to have a softer ride. The servicing of the car is included for 50K/4 years and they'll come and get your car when service is required.
If you don't mind switching to a full size car, you really should take a look at the Phaeton.
I can sure picture an E-class diesel (finally back on our shores) going 2-300,000 miles. I bought my Acura 14 years and 175,000 miles ago, and have just recently hit the $1,000 mark for total cost of all repairs. I am constatly tempted by new vehicles, but driving a free one is hard to beat.
Isn't the Phaeton available with the V-10 diesel in Europe. I wonder if there would be any interest in that motor here. Probably not -unfortunately.
If this is your experience, let me simply state: this type of thing is rare for any European car that has been brought to the US in the past 10 years.
Perhaps a Diesel Mercedes will go the distance, I am not suggesting that it won't. Perhaps a Phaeton will, too -- but I cannot imagine the total out of pocket costs for a Phaeton @ 175,000 miles will be but $1,000.
If you have this kind of experience, I say keep it until the wheels turn square. I envy you.
Another E55? What did you decide on reguarding the Bentley?
There was talk of a Phaeton "R" model, you know like the R32 Golf. I'm not sure if such a model will ever see the light of day considering how badly sales wise the Phaeton has been doing worldwide.
Yes, my fourth E55. The 2003 was beginning to develop some problems and since it took 3 tries on the SL500 before I found one that was perfect, I thought I might try another E55 and ordered it for European delivery six months ago. Now I have to decide if I will stay in my Mercedes rut.
The Bentley has me completely conflicted. In fact, my interest in the Bentley led me to my interest in the Phaeton. I read an article on the Bentley in EVO and the writer noted that there will probably be more Bentleys than Phaetons on the road and the content is very similar, so why pay double the Phaeton for the Bentley. My biggest problem with the Bentley is the brand image, since it seems to stand for something I am not and don't particularly want to be perceived as. I will likely take delivery and flip it.
VWGuild2- you seem to be knowledgeable about the Phaeton. I am shopping for a W12 down in San Jose, but live up in Napa, 100 miles apart. Do you think my local VW dealer in Napa will be able to handle maintenance and repairs on the Phaeton? Also, does the satellite radio integrate with the existing stereo seamlessly? Is there a separate antenna?
I believe that a seperate antenna will be required...no drilling required!!! Existing roof mount is the "OnStar" AM/FM are in the back glass attached to 4 amplifiers...2 AM and 2 FM.
Phase II & Phase III Dealers are coming on-line though out the year, but service is available today just 20 miles~ away...
Comments
Value to the customer...
M
"interested" in the new for 2005 AWD & V8 STS??????
Are you suggesting that you might actually consider (not only) a non-Audi, but an American car? Seriously? Or does someone need to check your coffee?
- Ray
Startled & Shocked . . .
My coffee is regular, not unleaded and I am, as far as I know, fine.
I will certainly be looking long and hard at the new A6 (and the S4) -- I've not gone over to "the other side" yet.
But, the temptation of a "European" STS with a V8 for $48K is "out there" -- and, after reading three reviews of the 300C (which is said to show its Mercedes E class DNA, strongly), I figure my almost blind loyalty to Audi should be, at least, tested -- before I once again pony up for Audi #30.
I know it is hard to be discussing these things in terms of "value" -- but frankly, I at least have to satisfy my curiosity by at least "considering" a $40K Chrysler 300C and a $50K Cadillac STS before I leap into another $55K+ Audi.
Let me say this, the American's I noted, "caught my attention."
Also, I must add, the article in yesterday's USA Today (Money section) about the drop off in sales of European cars is at least some encouragement to shop a little bit, this time.
Probably the result of my mood -- which is probably the result of another in a seemingly endless stream of cold (39F) wet and overcast days here in the Spring (of my discontent) in southern Ohio.
I'll probably wake up soon and say "what was I thinking?"
And, to underscore my comment and ? about what even comes close to a $67,500 Phaeton -- well the Audi A8 certainly comes close (and for some, I am certain, exceeds the Phaeton's allure) -- but it is, practically speaking at least $8,000 more than the Phaeton -- so my "bargain" comment still stands. And, there is no way I could put the Lexus in the same league -- simply because it lacks AWD.
Perhaps you are sensing a trend -- the 300C and the STS provide some level of interest because they will come to market with available AWD -- something I will not be without.
While a comparable Chrysler will be less than an Audi, I, for one, will never buy another Volvo (priced similarly to Audi or VW) because of the terrible reliability problems I've had with Volvo but also because of the very high scheduled maintanence costs with the Volvo.
Between the Audi and VW family, I am virtually certain, however, that you are right -- the two Americans, nice as they may be, just might be pale imitations of the feel, fit and finish I have been used to for so many years.
Oh yea, it is a sunny and warm day today -- I knew my lapse might have something to do with the weather.
I haven't, yet.
I suspect (and hope) the 300C is far beyond what we've come to expect from Chrysler. I would not rule it in because it is made by Chrysler. But I would not rule it out either.
Anyway, not sure this car can be compared with the Phaeton.
The Japanese auto manufactures have consistently kicked both the US and ALL of the European automakers in this category.
This is probably why they command such a great resale value and why I will continue to purchase these vehicles.
Disclaimer: I own an Acura and a VW and I have taken the W12 Phaeton test...
The Japanese auto manufactures have consistently kicked both the US and ALL of the European automakers in this category.
This is probably why they command such a great resale value and why I will continue to purchase these vehicles.
Disclaimer: I own an Acura and a VW and I have taken the W12 Phaeton test...
way here...Same is true over at the other place...a bit busier perhaps, but not by much...
In the last five years the German auto groups have gone from excellence to equal with the US autos as far as reliability. Subsequently there resale has reflected this drop.
The badges can only carry you so far...
you should be leasing anyway...You will be big dollars ahead...And the leasing numbers are great...
I have two new factory orders for April, one from March, and two others that are on the road...
Sales have been good...Lots of interest in CPOs
as welll...Certified Pre-Owned..
In the last five years the German auto groups have gone from excellence to equal with the US autos as far as reliability. Subsequently there resale has reflected this drop.
The badges can only carry you so far...
Talk about Japanese patience -- the Germans have moved to 11 in this regard, if this is indeed the lengths they're willing to go to to "build" their reputation in this market.
Also, new mini-Phaeton (aka Passat) is pictured in either this or the new Automobile magazine (I can't remember, I went nuts at Borders and bought one of every car mag they had) -- as the song says, "we're movin' on up."
I take this as a good sign that the Phaeton is, at least, selling some cars here in River City.
I have, however, never seen one on an Interstate highway -- just tooling around town. And, one would think, they only come in Silver and Dark Silver metallic, based on greater Cincinnapolis, where I live.
The lease deals on them, however, are incredible (but they are for 48 months). Yesterday's paper had them going for $649/mo for 48 months (full disclosure, I didn't see the annual milage -- but I imagine it was either 10 or 12K for that kind of term -- 48 months.) There was a rather small cap cost reduction required, but it appeared that some of that actually came from the dealer, not from the customer.
My allroad is more than a Phaeton -- but I am on a 36 month 15K lease -- acquired 11/01/02 -- things have changed.
The Phaeton, I still say, is a bargain if anything at this price point could ever be called that. No way this kind of deal is on an A8L.
Phaeton sales seem to be holding their own without a great deal of Corp. assistance for the moment...I took another custom build order last night...Customer just fell in love!!! AND he arrived at the store driving a 4S Porsche!
I do not think that that your use of the term "bargain" is entirely appropriate...I am, however; reminded of this homily...'We know the price of everything, but the VALUE of nothing'...
But look at what he has done. Instead of spending marketing dollars on TV or magazine advertising (notice that EVERY car magazine starts with 6 pages of GM ads? Ever look at world-wide production of cars and notice that VW sells more cars than GM for about 4 years now? (no, not trucks/vans/SUVs but cars)) [back to topic] instead of burning marketing money on transient ads that you forget within a day, VW has decided to BUILD advertising, sell it customers, and let them drive it on the road. Every Phaeton sold, profitable or not, is advertising for VW just like Cadillac is advertising for GM; Lincoln for Ford. I think its quite brilliant. It will certainly help win "mindshare".
Personally, I think the real reason for the Phaeton is childish retaliation. In creating the "A-class", Mercedes told VW: "We can and are moving into your bread-and-butter -- volume economy cars" I think that the Phaeton is VWs way of saying: "Okay ... but as of now, we can and are moving into your bread-and-butter -- high-end luxury cars"
I want to like the Chrysler 300 with its huge Benz content, cool looks, and incredibly upscale (for Chrysler) interior. I sat in a Pacifica within 5 minutes of a 300 Touring, and the 50% more expensive Pacifica looked like junk inside in comparison.
But anyone paying money for a Chrylser knows they're not getting much of it back down the road.
Regardless of quality ratings, Mercedes has the highest resale value in the industry ... better than the reverred Japanese knock-offs from Lexus.
Look at Cadillac. Some neat looking new products, for sure. However, my Dad's friend sold his '91 Cadillac this week ... for $500 ... Canadian (~US$335). A '91 Golf is worth 5 times that much.
In 1992 a loaded Eurovan camper had a list price of CDN$37,000 (I bought my VW 1-ton double cab truck that year for C$19,000) and currently, those vehicles, with over 100,000 miles on them, sell for 50% to 70% of new value ... 12 years later.
My truck is worth > US$20,000 in california 150% of new value. I've seen Audi All-roads that cost new $62,000 going for C$55,000 to $57,000. A GM SUV depreciates more when you drive it off the lot than an Audi SUV depreciates in 3 years of use!
A large study rated VW resale #2 behind Benz.
My wife's '91 Passat sold for $6500 with 240,000 kms on it when it was 8 years old. I believe that's 50% depreciation over 8 years. A Toyota Celica depreciates 50% in 3 years. The only Toyota that really holds its value is the Land Cruiser. Up here a 1985 Land Cruiser Wagon with Diesel power fetches C$15,000 which will buy you 2 dozen '85 Camrys (if there are that many still on the road)
Look in your newspaper's classifieds for import cars prior to 1980 ... it looks like only 3 brands were ever imported into the US: Mercedes, Porsche, and VW. They last and the resale values back it up.
Its amazing that they even sell cars in a country where customers are more concerned with myth than reality. In Europe, where they can drive cars at 150 MPH legally and people know what goes, what doesn't, and what cars people survive in when bad things happen at 100+ MPH, VW is #1 in sales.
And Germany builds more vehicles than Canada and the USA combined!
VW will sell more cars in China in the next 24 hours than they will sell in the US. They have 38% market share there. Parts of the country have mountainous highway grades so steep that in the past only Mercedes cars were seen, because other sedans didn't have good enough brakes. Now VW is #1 in the world's fastest growing market. In about 3 years time, VW will sell twice as many cars in China than in the US.
You really have to ask: what is their incentive to put much effort into a market where people buy huge SUVs and then complain about the price of gas? They must think that North American's are all insane or just idiots.
A 5500 pound car with a 12 cylinder engine is an outrageously impractical device for personal transportation. It totally defies logic. And I don't think they'll be able to build them fast enough to meet demand!
A few years ago, I had leased a Lexus RX 300 with a contractual residual of, I believe, 65% after 39 months. When I signed, I thought that this was rather optimistic, but ideal for me as the customer. At the end of term I offered the bank market value at roughly 52%, and they declined. Upon further inquiry, the nice lady told me that she knew about the actual value of the car all too well, but that their loss was covered by some sort of insurance only if they offloaded the Rex through an auction - at any price! I was willing to pay as much as they finally got for the car later, but was turned down since losses in private party sales were not covered under their insurance.
The residual on the Phaeton might be 60%, but we will only learn what it's really worth after the first ones hit the real market in about 30 months - and that holds true for all residual assumptions on new models.
I was basing my rant on figures from last fall. I don't read the Wall Street Journal, or most the technical Journals that I spend hundreds of dollars on each year. I've been immersed in my business for a few years, and reading about cars online is my way of unwinding late at night.
The connection between interest rates and resale values is interesting but logical due to the substantial percentage of leased vehicles. This is also in line with cash purchase prices of used vehicles which would go up in inflationary times (as new models rise relative to the used ones) since interest rates are typically tied to inflation rates.
The net result is that you're better off purchasing or leasing a new car at times of higher inflation because the value will hold, but if you don't have cash for the purchase option you should lease. But at times when rates (and residuals are lower) you should stay away from new cars all together, but if you do buy one purchasing may be better because the low interest rates work in your favour.... ?
Does that make sense?
If the money factor is 0% and you intend to keep a car, well I guess, under that circumstance, buying a car over x months would be prudent. Likewise, so long as the money factor is below the stimulative interest rate, that too would be a good time to "pay over time" -- but I suspect that logic would apply to either buying or leasing, but hardly ever paying 100% cash upfront.
If one believes that a Fed funds rate of 1% is stimulative to the overall economy and that a 3% rate would be "neutral" -- well that suggests a prudent course of action if there is some choice in which interest rate you may select.
I have friends who can buy and keep -- with low maint costs -- cars for 150,000 and more miles. If you are such a person, well, then a lease may not work for you.
I have not had either the inclination or good fortune to own/lease cars for 150,000 miles. At a certain point in time, all my cars, life to date, seem to require upkeep costs that made/make me feel that I was/am making new car payments and driving an old car.
Thus far, therefore, I have leased -- I am 52. Perhaps, as my 65 year old friend has done, I will buy my next car at 0% interest for 60 months -- if such interest rates are available at that time, that is.
Just a thought.
I think this is all part of the lease trap. Once you are hooked on getting a new car every three years you have a hard time desiring to buy a car and hold it for 6-8 years. This is even more true with the technology changes and more importantly with the added safety features put in the cars. If you see a new Corolla riding around with more technology and safety equipment than your 2 or 3 year old $70k+ lux car you feel cheated. Thus you look at a lease vs. buy and take the lease because you take comfort in the fact that it is nearly as good or a better deal after three years than buying up front. But how many buy the car after three years? I lease also because I own a business and I can deduct for taxes. But I also lease my non-bus car for the ability to change without any resale problems.
I don't think the lease vs buy pricing works down market but since I've only leased lux cars the last 12 years I haven't tested it.
If you buy a car and keep it for 10 years you will probably spend less than half as much money on car payments as someone who leases for 10 years. Remember there is inflation during the 10 years so those last few years of leasing will be relatively high.
Cars these days last 10 years easily, and 200,000 miles is also easily obtainable. No need to lease a new car every few years. Now if you are bored with a car after a few years that is a different matter.
Also, does anyone know of modifications available for the W-12 that will upgrade engine output closer to that of the Bentley GT which share the same engine? Lastly, is satellite radio available for the Phaeton?
So, if I could make $600 lease-payments [forever -- or for 10 - 12 years for purposes of this comment] and always have a new car that always had 100% warranty and 100% maintenance included; I have come to be convinced that it is the same as the person who buys (in cash or on time) a new car and keeps it 10 - 12 years and pays to maintain and repair it.
$600 lease payment (with no up front out of pocket cash) x 12 years = $86,400 (no mainenance or repair bills).
a $50,000 car (assuming 0% interest and no money down) would be $833.33 a month for 5 years. If the factory full maintenance and warranty were for 4 years or 50,000 miles (whichever came first), I would be out of warranty and beyond free maintenance at about month 39 or 40 with 20+ months of payments to go. Assuming "normal" maintenance intervals @ 10,000 miles, I would have three more intervals (assuming nothing broke) before the car was paid for. Most of these cars will require a new timing belt @ 60,000 miles and beyond 50,000 miles is where wear and tear takes its toll on struts, major fluid changes, power window motors, etc etc etc etc. Assuming these three additional service intervals (due to the timing belt change, primarily) were in total $ ~ 2,000 (or $100 per month) -- I would have put out $50,000 in payments plus $2,000 in maintenance (not to mention almost certainly at least one set of tires for yet an additional $700 at least [including mounting and balancing]) for a grand out of pocket total in 60 months of $52,700.
In the same time (60 months) my lease payments would have been $36,000 and there would have been no other expenses and I would be driving new technology.
Ok, so for the first 60 months (in this mythical 0% interest financing world -- which will soon end, don't you think?) I would have paid either $52,700 (if nothing and I mean nothing broke out of the warranty period) or $36,000 - a difference of $16,700.
Now, as we progress forward, the $833 carpayments cease and the lease payments would soldier on. And, if nothing breaks for the next 110,000 miles, the purchased car turns the tables on the "balance of payments."
We could extapolate further and determine regular scheduled maintenance, tires, and even a fudge factor for "something that breaks" -- but even if nothing broke, the one driver would have a car, at one point, over a decade old while the other driver would never have a car more than 2 model years old.
A Phaeton, to use but one example, would somewhat alter the size of the payments, but the spirit of the event would not change. Moreover, if you believe, as do I, that the new technology is coming at shorter and shorter intervals and that this new technology improves the efficiency, comfort, safety and performance of the cars they are placed in -- well -- I'll just keep right on making those lease payments, until or unless the time comes that I can justify a lump sum outlay equivalent to the price of my then current dream car.
Try as I might, I cannot even dream of a Phaeton going 150,000 miles beyond the original factory warranty without significant maintenance costs and without at least one "expensive" component going south.
One of my co-workers 103,000 mile old Dodge Durango, "lost its water pump" over the weekend -- serpentine belt, some hose, pump, tow and labor = $600. Moreover, since 100,000 miles 3 or the 4 power window motors had to be replaced. Several other, mainly minor, but 3 figure each, repairs have been happening "every month" since about 90,000 miles.
Now, I am not holding the Dodge Durango out as the shining or tarnished example of "how it should be" -- this just seems all too typical. And, I can hear the anecdotes being penned as I write this about all those super reliable Japanese (and probably Korean) cars that people love to write about.
Well, frankly, I will read them, I will believe them and I will share with you, that I have NEVER known anyone personally who has had this kind of reliability with any car from any manufacturer -- my one buddy with the 1997 Acura, sorta comes close at 130,000 miles but the fact that it needed a paint job (the thing rusted badly) and a new transmission and a new starter motor and the "door close" motors had to be replaced (all out of warranty) kinda makes my point.
It's pay now or pay later -- and when you pay later, it just seems like your paying the same amount (in aggregate) as the guy who gets a new one every 36 months and lets the next owner "enjoy" the outgoing car in its old age (financially speaking).
Of course, that's just the way I "rationalize" it.
If you don't mind switching to a full size car, you really should take a look at the Phaeton.
Isn't the Phaeton available with the V-10 diesel in Europe. I wonder if there would be any interest in that motor here. Probably not -unfortunately.
Perhaps a Diesel Mercedes will go the distance, I am not suggesting that it won't. Perhaps a Phaeton will, too -- but I cannot imagine the total out of pocket costs for a Phaeton @ 175,000 miles will be but $1,000.
If you have this kind of experience, I say keep it until the wheels turn square. I envy you.
There was talk of a Phaeton "R" model, you know like the R32 Golf. I'm not sure if such a model will ever see the light of day considering how badly sales wise the Phaeton has been doing worldwide.
M
The Bentley has me completely conflicted. In fact, my interest in the Bentley led me to my interest in the Phaeton. I read an article on the Bentley in EVO and the writer noted that there will probably be more Bentleys than Phaetons on the road and the content is very similar, so why pay double the Phaeton for the Bentley. My biggest problem with the Bentley is the brand image, since it seems to stand for something I am not and don't particularly want to be perceived as. I will likely take delivery and flip it.
VWGuild2- you seem to be knowledgeable about the Phaeton. I am shopping for a W12 down in San Jose, but live up in Napa, 100 miles apart. Do you think my local VW dealer in Napa will be able to handle maintenance and repairs on the Phaeton? Also, does the satellite radio integrate with the existing stereo seamlessly? Is there a separate antenna?
Phase II & Phase III Dealers are coming on-line though out the year,
but service is available today just 20 miles~ away...