Volkswagen Phaeton

ffb13

re read the article ,s l o w ly...............

and,no, i am not comparing the fx 35 to the phaeton.........

the phaeton is a heavy,gas guzling ,straight line performing isolation chamber.

the fx ,is a large sports car.

the fx ,appears to be reliable.....and has been so according to cr.

the phaeton ,well.just look up vw record for reliability.

but most importantly these are the qualities i was looking for and it is what i wanted---------and the fx is it.

merc1

My point about the Phaeton is that no sedan in that category would have given you what you were looking for and have found in the FX35, sport first + luxury second.

M

bostnwhalr

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7293&sid=17- 3&n=156

merc1

I'm surprised it took him this long to tell the truth about the car. This is the man that ran BMW and was integral in their rise to where they are today......in short he's smart enough to know that having a VW that competes with Audi doesn't make any sense whatsoever. He didn't slam the car when he first took the job at VW out of respect to Ferdinand Piech.

M

vwguild2

The problem here is not his point of view, but the fact that he chose to express it in the press, rather than in the Boardroom...Very bad form!!!

On a brighter note...Word I get from Auburn Hills is that PHAETON customers continue to LOVE their cars...Customer feedback is awesome...

ljflx

You have to realize that European executives are very rarely critical of each other or their predecessors. But in knocking the decision to build the car and putting so much doubt into its US future he just killed the residuals and probably turned off any bank who would put a lease up on the car. A while back people were wondering where the ad money was. He must have been blocking it or reducing it to a trickle.

tarik

Currently, 12 month-old Phaetons sell in Germany for about 60-70% of their MSRP, and I am afraid it won't be any different here. For those who leased it does not matter, and for those who bought to keep forever it might also be moot.

In general though, it is a hard-to-ignore piece of realism that you wil be able to pick up one of these machines for a song next summer.

It's about time Pischetsrieder takes a stand, but the wagon/coupe picture he is painting once again follows AUDI's lead. They just showed the next-gen A8's wagon version to have more like a hatch/coupe type roof line.

vwguild2

The point here is not whether style can be improved or enhanced...frankly, I have never heard anyone say that they did not love car as is, but the fact that the CEO critiques the automobile in the press, and in a negative way,
based on HIS opinion shows terrible judgement...
totally thoughtless.

Regarding the year old PHAETONS...I cannot imagine anyone spending that kind of money on a whim, and you are correct...For those that have leased and those who own for the long term couldn't care less. In addition, it is important to remember at this price point the market is always very small, and this is reflected in the marketplace...

By the way...What is the European Warranty?

tarik

Well, I guess the German outspokenness is not something everybody wants to deal with. At least he does not hide behind political BS but calls the child by its name. Additionally, he has to make buyers of the lesser levels feel like he is taking their quality complaints seriously. Pischetsrieder did not criticize the technical design of car, but rather its conception based on marketing intelligence (?) and its placement in the market.

Interesting you ask about warranties, as I cannot locate any information online. I checked, but all I could find was a German Premium Service Modul, which covers all inspections and wear part replacements at additional cost to the owner. The Brits have a cool Phaeton site up and running, BTW.

vwguild2

Thanks for the Brit tip...

There is no excuse, whatsoever, for what he did...NONE...

ljflx

On this one I'm in total agreement with you. This is extraordinarily bad form and my knowledge of European executive behavior (worked 15+ years for a European company prevciously) tells me this was personal. Unfortunately the cast system in Europe & Germany will prevent anyone from telling the CEO what a terrible thing he just did unless the supervisory board speaks up. But that is highly unlikely as it is much weaker than its US equivalent Board of Directors.

I never agreed or understood the need for the Phaeton and if it was a reaction to MB introducing the A-class in Europe it was a knee jerk one. Nevertheless there was nothing wrong in introducing a softer A8 as a VW if it was the intent to "truly" build a high-end car. Over time you differentiate it more and more so that it's really its own car. Given the car is already there he could have put a real positive spin on its future rather than knocking its past. You can't start, stop and then start again. So any decision to stop US imports to me is a decision to stop production totally. On the other hand Audi has been so inconsistent also with the S8 and the discontinuance of the SWB A8 and now the talk of it being re-introduced here.

Tourag is a real beautiful SUV and shows what VW can do further up the line. How is it selling and will they ever introduce a third row?

vwguild2

are both in place for one primary purpose...to make VW a complete car company...nothing knee jerk about it.

Prior to their introductions a loyal VW fan/customer was forced to leave the brand if she/he wanted an SUV or an automobile of the PHAETON's caliber. And the PHAETON was never intended to compete with the A8. Historically, and this is well documented, fewer than 4% crossshop the two brands...surprising, yet true.

Additionally, the presence of these two new products required Dealers to improve their facilities & processes, a benefit to ALL VW
Customers...

To me, the greater "mistake" was turning the W8 into an orphan...At it's introduction it was the least expensive, most powerful, all wheel drive sedan/wagon available in this country. A Great exhaust note and married with the Six Speed manual transmission an awesome ride...And to the best of my recollection the only car ever to be designed around the powerplant, rather than the other way around. This car was intended to be a bridge to the PHAETON. It could have been optioned up with NAV, Sound System, Air Supension, Park Assist, Leathers & Woods, but none of this ever occurred...A pity...

3rd Row Seat coming in 2005 in a LWB T-Reg, and sales continue to go very well.

And there still sits on the Board of VWAG a
Dr. F. Piech...we'll see how this plays out...

merc1

The S8 was a performance variant that comes and goes with the new A8 itself. Everyone staggers the introduction of the performance variant of a new model over time to keep interest up. Audi is no different from Mercedes or BMW in this regard, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

Now if you meant just the swb A8 then I'd have to ask what the big deal is. The new A8L has sold better than any version of the old A8 ever has. Clearly they gave the market what the market warrants, the full-on long wheelbase A8 like Mercedes and BMW offer on their products.

There is nothing inconsistent about anything. The SWB A8 goes on sale new month, and judging by sales of the A8L, nobody has missed it.

vwguild2,

Thats interesting. So you're saying that when Piech came out basically said that Phaeton was a response to Mercedes entering traditional VW markets with their A-Class wasn't true? This has been coming from European press every since the Phaeton was announced no????? I'm sorry but all I'm reading here is a lot of contradiction when it comes to the Phaeton. First it isn't an important car and thus can get by on 150 units a month, then it has a purpose and place, but yet even though the car has flopped in Europe and is on it's way to doing the same here, the Chairman is is wrong for stating the obvious. Phaeton owners may love their cars, and I like it too, but the car is was and is a marketing/branding mistake for VW and there really isn't any spin anyone can put on it to change that.

M

vwguild2

The comments regarding the "A" class cars were made in defense of becoming a "complete" car company. In other words, if MBZ could create less expensive product to garner share that they felt they were losing; why should VW not do the same...but on the other end...

And I do not know of anyone saying that the car is not important...

ljflx

In 2001 they had the swb. Now in 2005 they are bringing it back. The S8 was simply discontinued because of low sales vilume from what I read. Now it's making a comeback. Simply put the only consistency is in the A8L.

vwguild2 - thanks for the Tourag data. Love our GX470 but love the looks of the Tourag as well and we'll give it a good look when the current lease is up.

merc1

I think you're confused. The "S8" is a performance version of the S8, like the S55 is of the S-Class. None of the performance variants of these cars come out intitially with a new re-design of the basic car. The S8 was no discontinued in 2001, it was sold right up until the new 2004 A8 came out. The short-wheelbase A8 was discontinued for 2003 (not sure on the year) because most people were buying the A8L. The S8 is a performance variant and the A8 is just the short wheelbase version of the A8L, neither of which were performance-biased like the "S8". A new S8 hasn't even been announced yet, but the short wheelbase A8 goes on sale next month.

vwguild2,

Thats basically the same thing [non-permissible content removed] for tat. Only VW's foray hasn't been half the sucess that the A-Class has been.

M

markcincinnati

The lower cost Merc, according to European Car, will be discontinued here. BMW also discontinued its lower priced "hatchback" -- now, however, Audi is coming out with a Premium Hatchback (A3) and VW is still, nothing yet has contradicted this that I can find, planning to move the entire line "upscale" in terms of perceived market position and quality, but at a price point that is some 15 - 20% below its German rival, Mercedes.

Moreover, Audi and VW are, s-l-o-w-l-y diverging. I believe these transitions were to start somewhat more in earnest with the 2005 models and be significanly more "apparent" to the casual observer by 2007.

Rome, er, VW, wasn't built in a day.

ffb13

look up the article on today's wall street journal.
looks bad for the phaeton if the stats are correct.

dieselbreath

The former chairman stated directly that Audi was to compete with BMW and VW to compete with Benz. So the A8 is the quicker performer, and the Phaeton more of a Limo. Anyone criticizing its handling is shopping the wrong car!
It obviously was a mistake that they were so similar. However, I suspect that had more to do with budgets than wishes. They couldn't both exist without sharing most of the platform design.
At least in the first iteration.

On the style ... does anyone remember the D1 concept which the Phaeton was based on?
It was a very large fast-back design ... very striking. The only place I've seen it lately is in a brief flash in a Chrysler ad about style ... it appears that they cloned it much like the RX330 copy of the M-class. (or maybe that's a CrossFire, which is sortof a scaled-down D1?)

If they built something along the lines of that concept it should draw some attention. But without marketing push it still won't move much product.

So, who wants to wait a couple of years and then pick up a Phaeton lease-return for next to nothing?

55396

Would it be a good long term investment if you bought one when used bottomed in price, kept it up and and kept it for 20-30 years? Not many made. Short life cycle. Hmmmm. Forget it, I'll be dead long before that.

markcincinnati

In two weeks, the two new Phaeton's sitting at my nearby VW dealers will have been "up and behind" the inventory of VW's, essentially out of sight -- for nine (9) months. One of these beauties has no options whatsoever on it and has the low $60K MSRP on it. The other one has the "technology package" and perhaps another option. Both cars have to be "ripe" -- a month or so ago there was an ad in the paper for these cars calling them demos and the lease price for 48 months (10 or 12K miles per year) was something like $599 (with some $3K down) -- what, typically is likely to happen over the next 60 days if these babies aren't sold? Further discounts?

I have seen, in my life, here in Cincinnati 3 Phaetons on the highway, two of them black -- they are distinctive, despite comments from derfatherland to the contrary.

I had not considered a Phaeton due strictly to its size (too big) but at this point, the price "could" make me consider such a thing.

What is likely to happen to these cars and their prices?

Anyone? Anyone at all?

golfgti201

Over in CA, i have seen a silver phaeton sitting in the same spot for a few months, never seemed to move a inch. There was a ad for a phaeton W-12 for 7,000 off. Although that lease as mentioned above is pretty good, to me, at least when i calculated it up.

drjmak

mark in Cincinnati...What is the dealer name and number. Deals in NYC are not that good. Please let me know

vwguild2

to direct your attention to the current issue...
July 26th, of AUTOWEEK

merc1

The Phaeton beat the S500, a hollow victory at best. The Phaeton might have won one battle with the S500, but it surely won't win the war with the S-Class in overall. The car is a commercial flop. There probably won't even be 2nd generation Phaeton.

M

vwguild2

I don't ever remember ever hearing or reading about anyone who felt that the PHAETON would be an overnight success...

No real ad campaign beyond national print since January...The problem is not the car...Of that I can assure you...

merc1

Oh I agree that the car itself isn't the problem, but can you honestly explain to me the point of having a brand-new 70-100K model in a showroom and not have a "real ad campaign" to support it? I was all for this about a year ago, but it really doesn't make any sense to me anymore.

To me the car remains as interesting as day one, but VW's marketing of the car is a complete mystery to me.

M

sapparo

Their sales will take off when they employ the ad campaign of the original Q45 showing the ocean and rocks but no car.

vwguild2

Sadly...Me too!!!

ffb13

the reason ad support was pulled is due to the car ' sales failing to meet plan.
mostly in europe and then vw re-projected usa plan.
thus,rather than keep hemmorraging dollars they pulled the campaign.
and now ,they have to reformulate plan.
as i posted many months ago,the phaeton will have to be rebadged and pulled from vw dealerships which are not really qualified to play in this field..
this rebadging is the only way to save the new dresden factory .and ,the only way to go.
i anticipate that they,vw will either make the bugatti ,or create a buggati brand around this car in dresden.
or,create a bentley here.it is all in place anyhow.and again,the only way to go.

sqc

I currently have a Mercedes 2002 CL-55 (pre super chargers), which is a two door. I need a four door car (I think) and have driven all high end luxury sedans and found them all wanting. The S 600 is nice but a new body style is on the horizon in late 05. I had a S 500 prior to the CL and it was an excellent vehicle. Prior to that I had an 1998 A8, also a great car. I test drove a W 12 on three occaisions and honestly it is the finest automobile I have ever driven. The car puts me in a quandary. I am seriously considering a W 12 but as R & T says: There are only three things wrong with the Phaeton: The VW badges on the grille, trunk and steering wheel.

merc1

Interesing situation. So you have one of the pre-hp-wars CL55's huh. The next S-Class doesn't arrive in the U.S. until early (Feb-Apr) 2006.

I think your mind is made up, go for the Phaeton W12 if that is what you like. I wouldn't worry about the badges personally, but everyone is different. I remain a fan of this VW, heck all of them except the Beetle, and I really like their upscale products like the Phaeton and Touareg, but their marketing of the Phaeton has been strange to say the least, the complete opposite of the Touareg.

The only question is whether to lease or buy. Tricky question on such a uknown car.

Did you buy your CL55 new? How has it been?

M

vwguild2

wrong with the PHAETON...Well, as I said the other day, but rather abrasively from a politically correct point of view...if the Badge means more than the product, then that customer has other issues...

sqc

I freely admit: Its an ego problem for me.

merc1

Well I happen to think the CL is Mercedes best car in terms of stylng and what it offers. So no objection with me there.

Well the next S will debut in Europe late next year, probably at the Frankfurt autoshow in Sept 2005, and it will go on sale here in early 2006, so actually the S-Class in this country will have a short 2006 model year with some type of special editions, you know like they're doing on the ML now and how they did the E-Class in 2002.

I say if you like the big Veedub then go for it!

M

vwguild2

Ego=Self Confidence & self assurance...In reality, if the "Star" holds that much value it is a fragile shell for the real thing. In other words lack of ego makes the Star important.

If you see the value and understand the quality
of the PHAETON, as well described in AUTOWEEK (July 26th); that should be the criteria...:)

fish8

You may want to read the Luxo Comparo in the August Motor Trend. It compares a Jaguar, BMW 745, Mercedes S430, VW Phaeton V8, Audi A8L and Lexus LS430. I thought the results were very interesting!!!!

sqc

Bot the CL new in May of 2002. It is a really nice car. Fast, luxurious, rare and I think beautiful.

Drove an S 55 today - 25 miles on it - wow, what a nice car - ridiculously powerful and many improvements in electronics and ergonomics - But for 124K I dont want to be driving an old body style in a year.

I have seen stuff on the new S for fall 05 arrival - did you see 2006?

carnet1

Listen up people .... conversation is officially over mr car critic himself speaking here this phaeton has gone through a vigorous six month test with me behind the wheel and a good ten thousand miles along with it, and this car is the real deal!!! and all this badge nonsense i read here is so ridiculous 'cause my partner who rides a S500 and my buddy who rides an LS430 and my neighbor a 745 dont get a tenth of the kind of looks when i am with them like when i ride this phaeton. i have cars chasing me for miles on highways honking and shouting out the window "oh my gosh this is that 100,000 car i heard and read about" so whatever this nonsense about the vw badging thing is all a bunch of crap, in matter of fact its the complete opposite..
And maybe just maybe and i am only thinking out loud here this is precisely what vw was strategizeing with their ad campaigning "word to mouth to ear" and now with the slow sales they might rethink their strategy a bit ,,
I just saw on the back page of architectural digest the ad for the Phaeton and oh by the way whoever came up with that ad of the phaeton next to an old beetle and that slogan it took us so many years to make it grow bla bla ,,please take my advice vw it aint doin' you guys much justice ,,,,,,
Back to the facts !!!! this car is amazing in rain, and smooth on flat highways, and rough roads as well,it is a monster and a beast yet it can be a kitten too,,,
I am a person who is looking for a new car 3 months into my lease, people in all honesty i am as enthusiastic with my car today six months and ten thousand miles later as the day i test drove it and picked it up its a breath of fresh air walking in parking lots and i never have to look too hard for my car 'cause there aren't a half a lot full of 'em ...
The tiny few issues just for the sake of honesty (and you can all look up my posts here on edmunds back in Dec. and Jan.) are as follows well well that old fashioned nav system which after all after six months i am not so animated and furious as i was back then i realized that i didn't buy such an expensive car for its nav system which the most expensive unit runs 2-3 grand ,,,,the other issue is satelite radio and not only didn't they put one in but the beetle does have it and vwguild2 dont lie here in public by telling me i can install it and use existing antenna on roof that is special prewired like you lied to me a few months ago 'cause i called "(877)PHAETON" and they warned me not to dare touch anything 'cause it is not designed for it and tough luck to me so i will have to wait 2 more years to enjoy todays technology ..another issue which is absurd is in the center console there is a wire which the dealer promised me was an integrated cell phone kit which is on back order and will be here any day or so ,,it is six months later and vw is telling me that they are still designing an working on this project and they will call me to let me know the progress isn't this the biggest joke you ever heard...lol,.,,in general though its just awesome and fun and i find it much more badge prestigious than the other ones in its class ,,oh before i go motor trend this issue has that contest with all the players like the S ,745,jag,ls,A8 the fact that the ls was no. 2 in front of phaeton which is no.3 is the biggest joke and nonsense i have ever come across in my life i hope those MT guys dont quit their day jobs ,,bye and thanx for reading all ......

vwguild2

I never said that the existing roof antenna, the one for "OnStar", could ever be used for the subject application.

However; this past May I did have occasion to install an XM in a V8 Touareg with NAV/Sound System II. Because of the dash design of the T-Reg, sunglasses/change tray in the center, the XM people hard wired the controller and used an FM Modulator for the connection. It worked out quite well. The very small XM antenna was mounted right at the base of the windshield on the right hand side.

I cannot imagine doing any such alteration to the cabin of a PHAETON, but if XM is a vital component; I suspect something could be done.

And, although your post is rather difficult to read, it is clear that you are enjoying your PHAETON...Very glad to hear that.

andyman73

I saw a W12 version the other day, passed me in oncoming traffic. Looked great to me. I would buy one in a heart beat. A lot of folks are stuck on the brand image, their loss. However, VW does need to rapidly move away from the "Oldsmobile" marketing style. Once people learn what the car can do, and how it is reasonably priced compared to it's 12 cylinder competition, they will buy.

The gas pedal should be a good way to cure the little emblem problem.

trekguy77

Does anyone know why some of the V-8 models window sticker display 15 city/22 highway mpg, while other 2004 models display 16 city/ 22 highway mpg? The Phaeton hotline says this is a "typo error".
My personal best was 23.4 mpg.
Also, does anyone have "ambient footwell lighting" like the brochure promises?
Absolutely LOVE my car!!

drjmak

what is the best lease price people are getting?

aggie76

Great ad about the Hyperspeed button on the Phaeton dash tonight during the Olympics. My 14 yr old asked, kiddingly, if my LS430 had one too! Maybe VW is stepping out with some ads finally.

bobm1

Has anyone put this commercial on the web yet so we can watch it?

aggie76

Haven't seen it on the I-net yet but that sure would be great. Even though I bought an LS this year I still do enjoy the Phaeton's attributes and the marketing arm of VW does a nice job. That promo video from Great Britain is really a neat one for them.

fish8

The warp speed commercial is on www.vw.com website.

bobm1

Thanks! It's cute but I don't think it will draw the right crowd.

buddhabman

Curious to your reason why it' won't attract the right crowd? What is the right crowd? I bet all VW hopes it's people with 85-105K to spend on a car.

sqc

Today I am going out possibly make a final deal on W12. Looking at Black/Beige and Silver/Black.

I am seeing demos with 300 - 500 miles for $77,000 and no miles cars for 1000 under invoice.

Still not sure this is the right car but after reading carnet's post I feel better!

Drove the car again last week and it is really nice. The look really does grow on you.

Havent seen the silver yet but the Black Klavierlack is impressive and arguably the best color. Do you think the sonnen beige is too yellow?