It seems that ALL top-end luxury cars depreciate rapidly. I think its part of the "status" value. If its not brand new, it doesn't have the status, which is 1/2 of what the purchase price is. And with a VW badge instead of Audi/BMW/MB.... it will probably depreciate faster than the others, even though I expect both the VW/Audis to be recognized by collectors (in a few decades) as the best available in our time. So ... lease new, or wait for the lease returns to come back in a few years and save $10k a year depreciation!
some interesting info: - Germany manufactures more vehicles than Canada and USA combined. - if you look at CARS (not trucks/vans) then VW & Toyota both have higher production numbers than GM (for a few years now), Ford is way down the list, and Daimler-Chrysler isn't in the top 10 - VW will sell more cars in China in 2004 (for the 1st year) than in the US. VW has 38% market share in China - based on sales projections, AUDI built a factory in China a while back for A4s and it runs at capacity. How many Audi factories are there in North America? - owning 2 cars in China is a big status symbol. I don't know a lot of people in China, but I do know a couple with 2 cars. And they say that it would cost less to take a taxi everywhere than to operate a car, but car ownership is the ultimate statement - the most popular taxi in China is the VW Jetta. Due to this there is a huge demand for spare (used) parts. If anyone knows where they can get a few containers of Jetta parts, you can make a quick buck shipping them to Bejiing.
VW has never expected the Phaeton to be profitable. The chairman made it very clear that its reason for existence in North America was "to sell more V6 Jettas".
Where is VW spending its marketing dollars? ... building Phaetons! And the best part is ... people pay to drive their billboards around town!! Its perfect
You have made some great points, but I would like to clarify a couple of them...
First of all, really expensive cars depreciate more rapidly because their audience is so much smaller...Residual values are the best example of this...
VWs Ad & Marketing $$$ are being spent, today, on depleting current inventories of 2004 Jettas & Passats; not on the Phaeton...
I know there is not an unlimited supply of ad monies, but why NOT raise the awareness of the Phaeton? There were, around superbowl time some pretty neat ads for the thing. . .
It seems as if the electronic media advertising for the Phaeton is slim to none, and slim just left town.
I am guessing that VW is throwing ad/incentive money at their bread and butter Jetta's and Passat's. The potential profit from the Phaeton is minimal or non existant compared to the more popular models in the VW line up. Since VW is experiencing slow sales and a difficult financial situation, they probably need to bring in as much money as possible as soon as possible. That direction leads them to the more profitable Jetta and Passat. I would like to know how long Passats are sitting on dealers lots? I am also interested in seeing the sales numbers for May.
Finally saw one on the road and thought it was a good looking car. It should look good since it is so similar to the A8. The A8 still looks great to me - at least until they put that awful new schnoz on it.
Automobile also did an article on the V12 Audi vs. the V12 Phaeton this month. They favored the Audi because of handling but the better ride belongs to VW. I'd imagine that would hold true for the V8's as well. Give me good handling and a great ride in a car of this size any day - so my preference would likely be the VW if it were between the A8 and Phaeton only.
Having driven both, but obviously with more time in the V8, I would say that on the open road and at speed they are identical...In other circumstances, because of the 6 Speed and lighter weight the V8 is more agile...Therefore; that would be my pick, and of course there is that exhaust note too!!!
Well--I am getting rid of my 2004 E500 and I actually saw a Phaeton on the road for the first time last night.
Having owned a '99 Jetta--the VW brand left a bad taste in my mouth, but a Phaeton (while not in the same class as the E) seems quite worthy. If they had a competitive 36month lease on it, I would seriously consider it.
It's a shame there aren't more owners on this thread. The info is good all the same, though.
. . .here's a clue: this board hasn't had any postings until now for over 5 days.
Another clue: day 180 2, new Phaeton's held hostage by local VW dealer. Cars kept out of sight and even when you do pull into the lot there is a Passat sitting in front of the Phaetons which means, at first glance, one might actually see only a slightly longer Passat, unless one was actually seeking the Phaeton out.
Monthly lease costs now begin with the #5 and this is with almost nothing down.
Advertising? NONE, ZIP, NADA, ZILCH.
This is no way to bring a fantastic new car -- that after all, IS a bargain -- to market.
but, I can tell you the following...International events, including the operations in Iraq, and other Ports of Call...have caused the decline of the $ v. The Euro substantially since product launch planning began in the 4th Quarter of 2002. Then the USD=$1.25 to the Euro...but tonight it is worth $.82. 34%...And has been as much as 44%. Imagine that happening to the value of your house...This is the opening hand.
We are currently gracing the inside cover and first page of THE NEW YORKER, a two page spread in the June VANITY FAIR...last month we had the back cover of VANITY FAIR, and again two weeks ago the same buy for THE NEW YORKER...So ad dollars are being spent, just not on TV.
We are bringing 5 new vehicles in the next 18 months...the first two being a new A5 Jetta and a new B6 Passat...thus, job #1 is depleting current inventories.
PHAETON sales are holding their own with minimum support...not bad, in my opinion, and speaks volumes regarding the quality of this automobile. Q4 will allow us to shift focus back to this really great car.
I have 6200 miles on my V8, in service since Dec.7th, and not one glitch, not one rattle, not one squeak. Everything has been plus perfect...same is true with customer cars; all I get are referrals...
Does the VW Dealer in Cincinnati need to get off his a-- and start Marketing the car? It probably would not hurt...you reap what you sow...
"PHAETON sales are holding their own with minimum support...not bad, in my opinion, and speaks volumes regarding the quality of this automobile."
I have to ask this...so what is the point then? No support for the flaship product? It doesn't make any sense. They're only moving a few hundred a month that hardly says anything when competitors are doing 10xs as many. Why would a dealer spend their money on the car when VW itself isn't doing anything either. The whole Phaeton market situation just seems so hopeless and senseless, even being the great car it is. I wouldn't mention that reap what you sow cliche because VW is the one in trouble right now.
"This is the oddest new vehicle introduction I've ever run into."
Pat - all due respect, but I think that the VW Passat W8 may still hold the (rather dubious) record in this category - at least in the past 10 years or so. . .
- Ray Ex-W8 owner - despite VW (lack of) marketing support, etc.
I am firmly convinced that there still exists a gross misunderstanding regarding the goals with the PHAETON...
There was never the itention to sell thousands of these automobiles every month...It is not a big Passat. Target number was 5000 units a year...400~ a month...We will probably do that next year. Again...each PHAETON is built to order. I cannot order from the factory without a name, address, and customer phone #. We can pull from Ports V8s with Standard paint and Standard options. However; there are no 4 Seaters in Port, and none with Special paints or leathers.
Next is basic economics and budget...You can only spend what you have, well that isn't always true but that is what we are doing...New B6 Passats are coming and the new A5 Jetta arrives in 6 months. Inventories of current models MUST be depleted, and right now that is the priority. This does not seem, to me, to be a such a difficut concept to grasp...
"I am firmly convinced that there still exists a gross misunderstanding regarding the goals with the PHAETON..."
I'm convinced of that very same thing, but I think it is VW that has the misunderstanding.....of the luxury car market in this country. The car isn't even meeting the 400 units a month goal either. I understand the point of special ordering each unit to make them unique, but still with no marketing support there will be no one to order them. That part about concentrating on Passats and Jettas is an excuse in my book. I could see if the Phaeton was an old product, but it is brand new and doesn't get much support from the marketing department, that simply doesn't make good business sense, and VW isn't a postion to be so wasteful...building such a extravagant car and then not telling anyone about it. I do have a grasp on the concept, but it makes no sense to anyone but VW employes at this point. Don't get me wrong, I love VW/Audi products but the Phaeton is just pointless as a VW.
a view from another angle is needed here...Try going to Autoweek Magazine on line. Click on the tab titled "car news"...5th story down dated June 16th..."Ultra lux segment"...
Also do a search for "Rechtin", as in Mark Rechtin...You will discover a May 5th Story about Toyota/Lexus plans to do a $100,000 automobile...
are National, but not all Dealers are PHAETON Dealers...You will need to go VW.com, then go to "Dealer Locator", put in your Zip Code and radius of miles that will travel and click on PHAETON Dealers...Done...
If you could induldge me: I am picking up my new '04 Passat GLS tomorrow morning. They are giving me a price of $21,900 for a GLS automatic. Does that sound like a good price? I currently own a VW. Also, what are your thoughts on Leatherette?
well, after a few months looking and getting a lexus for my wife ,over the phaeton ,and returning the lexus because it so boring even with the sports susp.,took a small loss on it but very small .bought it right.
i kept looking and again test rode the phaeton,---i really wanted this car.--after much difficulty in dealing with vw dealers in the miami area.........but,the problem with dealers in the miami area applies to all makes,not only vw.---i decided to try elsewhere,and because i also live in the fairfield county --connecticut area,i tried here and it is a pleasure to deal with local dealers versus miami. but, the problem with the phaeton kept creeping back-----lousy handling--too much understeer......lack of feedback,but great interior,radio. lousy navigation system and,lousy computer controls.
i then drove an infinity fx 35----------SOLD. it drives like a sports car yet you sit high. excellent navigation controls and all comp. controls great. radio poor compared to vv,bmw mb and acura.
and it is in a way a luxury car.
the greatest thing ,the direct feeling of the steering/suspension.and the handling vis a vis the steering input.
this is what vw should have built into the phaeton.the connection between driver and car/road.in a great luxury car.
the beemer has lost it here.and so has mb. even the new bmw 530 with the active steering is not that good or should i say direct.
---( also,i tried the new beemer 6 series and it was o.k. not great . lovely. but no spare tire of any kind. only run flat tires---which only a few places can handle. here in fairfield county connecticut,only 4 tire dealers can handle these tires .blow one on a trip and get ready to wait it out in a local motel.--)
no ,the toureg is not that good .unless you go off the road.then is one of the best out there.
so,guys,i wish vw the best......but they have failed to build a great car.....they could have. if you travel to germany and talk to a dealer there you will hear a repeat of the above. the phaeton has it almost right.......but there is that 2/10 th missing......
found an automobile that you are comfortable with...at the end of the day, that is all that matters...We live in Consumer Heaven...No matter what our preferences...there is a car that fits the bill.
The only comment that I can make comes back to this issue of steering. "Servotronic", "Active Steering", whatever the name, are appreciated or rejected on pure subjective reaction. These things are not good or bad; they just are, and you like them or dislike them. The same can be said for the NAV in the PHAETON.
I sold a V8 PHAETON today to a gentleman whose first question was about the steering and staying in a lane...after about 90 seconds at 120MPH that objection went away. Next came the NAV..."It doesn't show the street names on the map"...I said, no, the street names are there in front of you on the center screen...They are there so you don't have to take your eyes off of the road...SOLD. After all is said and done the entire purpose of a NAV is to find your way when you don't know where the hell you are...Your only concern is to get to the address that is your destination...The PHAETON NAV system shows you the street that you are on and where to turn next...What else would anyone want to know or see? And...You are not required to look 120 degrees away from the roadway.
And finally...Dealers, whether in New York or Berlin, would love nothing better than for people to walk in and say "this car is perfect, I cannot find anything that exceeds it's capabilities on any plane...I will pay you whatever you want for this superb product".
Nothing is perfect across the board for all consumers...That is what makes a market...
Quote: "The PHAETON NAV system shows you the street that you are on and where to turn next...What else would anyone want to know or see?"
WELL: Like George Bush, no matter how many times you say it, it doesn't make it "right": One of the primary purposes of a NAV system is to use it as a general reference in an area with which you have familiarity, but are nor sure exactly where to turn. Your assumption is that everyone takes the time to enter a destination and use it as a definitive navigation system. Most people don't have the time to enter a destination. They know the approximate location, and then make occasional references to the map (with street names) to check progress. Even VW seems to agree and the forthcoming update bears witness to this.
I sold a V8 PHAETON today to a gentleman whose first question was about the steering and staying in a lane...after about 90 seconds at 120MPH that objection went away
You mean, like it would after trying that in any German luxury car?
My clunky Audi navigation system works flawlessly about 96% of the time. I always enter the destination and even without the touch screen (I have to use a rotary knob) the navi is easy and quick to program and "go."
On the other hand, I also basically agree that I would like the full color moving map option with street names, etc.
My point is the navi system, for my wife and me, now that we have had four cars with it since 2000, is a must have feature and a safety feature most importanty; I'll even go so far as to say it is a security feature. I was in Cleveland and Pittsburgh and I didn't know where I was, but since I knew where I wanted to be I asked the system to "get me the heck out of there" and with a few simple pushes, I found myself in, shall we say, an area that seemed to be more likely to be "low crime."
Without this system, I would have possibly driven around in areas that are better stayed away from.
And, even though I be from Cincinnapolis, where we had our own problems not too many years back, I use the Navi system to keep me out of the unsavory parts of my HOME town.
So, to repeat, I always program my system and I would like to have the full map with names -- luckily this is coming on the VW and Audi products.
I guess I'll reserve judgment with respect to NOT programming where I want to go until I have the luxury of said system in my new 05 Acura RL or Audi A6 (my two current "contendas" for next car purchase).
By the way, the two "hidden in the back of the dealership" Phaetons, are still at my local dealership -- been there now for 7 months.
I think they'd be happy for ANY offer at this point.
Maybe I ought to look at one of those since they would probably be less money than either 05 I mentioned. Hmmmmmmm.
I am not saying it is perfect for every customer's needs or expectations...Every good product can be be tweaked and made better...that is called progress...
I have to deal with what I have; not what will be...so I understand that my point of view is a bit different, but that said...I agree with Mark.
I'm really curious as to all the cars you drove. You went from a LS430 to a Phaeton to a FX45? The FX has be quite a difference from those luxury cars. It makes me wonder if you expected too much "sport" from cars as large and luxurious as the LS and Veedub.
first let me tell you that i do over 50,000 ,miles per year here in the us and in europe .
my daily driver in fla. is a 1955 porsche spyder with a modified engine putting out 175 hp.the car weighs 1200 lbs. in new england is a 1986 vette conv. and a moto guzzi motorcycle. in europe is an assortment of hi.perf. cars owned by the company.
so,yes i wanted a car for my trips to fla. and thus i wanted comfort but also feedback and reliability.
i have gone the cadillac route and loved it for the trips but after a few miles it felt like i was under anesthesia. same for the lexus even with the sports ??? suspension.
the sports cars are great for the trips ,but,they do tire you after a while.
the common wisdom is that a car that is fun to drive is a pain on a long trip.
the phaeton ,falls under the anesthesia type.plus it cannot handle.period. and i have just glanced at an article comparing the vw to the a8 and even thou i only glanced at it,in the summary they confirm this fact.
the mb500 and the a8 ,and the beemer 530i and 745 are very nice for the all around ,and trips. but,the are totally unreliable.... if they were not so unreliable and the dealers not so ....how do i say it.....well ,
i have seen more 500's on the side of the road that i cannot even believe it.and it is all in the computers.they are still writing code for the cars and being updated as people ride them and bring them in for service.
my favorite car is the audi.but no way.same problem with reliability. this is why the japanese are eating their lunch in germany,and displacing many of the german makes...according to the newspapers over there.
the infinity fx proved to be a nice car . i just took a 1450 mile trip on it and it was o.k. maybe i have to get used to the higher seating position and some of the road noise from the 20 inch tires.over some surfaces. but overall it was ok . you do have to be very attentive at all times as the car will react like a go kart,and you will find yourself drifting into the next lane.
but not ideal.better than the cayenne or the toureg,overall. but if i wanted to go off the road the toureg would be a better choice,
the fx 35 is actually the g35 with large wheels and a big,big body,nothing else. but quite nice overall.and,reliable........
that the steering on the PHAETON provides no feedback and it is a constant that you always have to keep it in a lane...AND NOW...the steering on this FX is so tight and "Go Kart like" that you will find yourself drifting into the next lane...
I cannot believe what a CROCK this entire Steering dialogue is...
Ok. I think you were looking for too much sport in the Phaeton.
I doubt if you'd have the wandering problem with the Phaeton. Large German cars tend to have great directional stability and I know you wouldn't have had as rough a ride in the Phaeton either. I'm surprised you went for the FX considering what a rough and unrefined ride it has over anything but glass-smooth pavement.
Naturally I think your seeing so many S500s on the side of road is overblown. I mean really.
Do you know how nationalistic Europeans are? Unless Lexus builds them there they won't buy that many and in the next 5-10 years Lexus will start building them there. Lexus built the cars and SUV's for America and Asia and barely jabbed at Europe. They didn't set up much of a distribution network nor did they put much marketing emphasis there. That will change in the next several years when they go global and sales are already leaping in England without any concentrated effort anyway. Toyota itself is only now starting to sell heavily in Europe and that distribution network will be the seeds for Lexus. By the time 2004 is done you will likely see Lexus US lead widen and that is with lousy sales of the GS and IS, both of which will have large impacts next year. The LS is selling at double the 7 and S-class through May as its refresh has been a major success. The S class refresh was a year earlier and it still failed to lead.
...I am afraid you are misreadng the point of my post.
I was only trying to find out where the Japanese luxo-makers eat the German brand's lunch in Europe, as indicated by ffb. It does not happen, and the Lexus LS series has been on the market in Germany for more than 10 years. And if Lexus sells twice as many LSs as MB sells S-Classes and BMW sells 7ers, I'd like to see whether they (Lexus) upped their sales or if it's because of the other's decline.
Funny you conclude that Toyota is only now selling cars in Europe, as they've been there longer than in the US. Their success is good, just the Lexus brand won't take off from sales numbers rivaling only maybe Cadillac.
Don't even go down the nationalistic route (look around you here, first), it's just that the LSs, Cadillacs, and Town Cars *g* are simply no match for European requirements and expectations in a car. They probably are more willing to trade reliability and blandness for excitement and minor trouble, but looking at the LS's sales-inspiring redesign, I understand why.
And now let's go back to the last on-topic post, and compare the Phaeton's steering and plow with the competition...
steering---------- the fx steering is go cart quick. go drive one. period.
you will be amazed. it was stated that my statement is full of crock. i do not insult. i relate the facts.
people who turn to insults do so because they cannot argue in an intelligent manner with facts.
again,go drive an fx infinity with the 20 inch tires. and by the way,the body follows through just as sharply.
the car,is almost on par with the the 3 series bmw.and the steering has more feedback than the m3 or 323 or whatever 3 there is including the 5 series. this my friends is a fact. go drive all of these cars and forget the nameplate. do a blind drive test and see for yourself. i do drive all of those cars and more .
the vw phaeton is just not in this class.
regarding the japanese eating the german lunch--- it is a fact that in germany,the japanese have surpassed the german cars in quality and are closing in on sales...........not at the luxury level-------on sales that is. but at the overall level in quality they are ,this according to the leading equivalent of jd power in germany.---i have posted their name here previously and also the statistics so if you are interested go back a few months.
i am aware how long toyota and lexus has been in europe.my statement which i failed to qualify referred to brand,overall.
phaeton-----is an ok car for turnpike driving in a straight line.
but,people are not buying it.
actual production of the phaeton ,originally projected at 32,000 units and then lowered to 22,000 units is , hold on 6,000 units.period.worldwide.
to me ,i am sorry to say,a total failure of marketing ,and primarily product positioning. i have said many times that i do like the car .i just do not like the way it drives.but the quality of materials and assembly are excellent.
now, before anyone attacks the production estimates as being incorrect ...the source is the wsj.and othe european and usa publications.
and the 32,000 original estimate is the original basis before the construction of the dresden factory which i have seen.
I read lots of stuff all over these posts and elsewhere. I also read the "car" magazines, well most of them, anyway.
The Phaeton is virtually always spoken of as being a quality piece of automotive engineering and build.
If quality = reliability (and perhaps it does, some folks posting write as if reliability and quality are synonyms) let's just proclaim the most bullet proof car the highest quality -- but I suspect a lot of us would take exception to this notion.
From what I can tell, from a broad perspective, there are (apparently) many high quality cars that are not quite as reliable as "we" would like them to be.
My experience with German cars (limited to three brands that I've actually owned) is that they generally are of the highest quality. Sometimes they are also of the highest reliability.
The Phaeton may or may not be reliable (are there that many sold here in North America for the data to be in yet?) -- I have seen nothing that says it is not of the highest quality, however.
Some of the most reliable cars I have owned seemed put togther with awful fit and finish and constructed of materials and engineered so that I could say they were "rattle traps" -- almost from the very first (a 1976 Plymouth Volare leaps to mind, for one, an American Eagle immediately follows, as does a Vega, another Plymouth -- a Duster, two Dodges [both Chargers] and one Cordoba [yea, with fine Corithian Leather] -- and a GTO [with a Hurst Shifter with a big white ball on it] -- all cars owned by either my wife or me).) These "fine 'sheens" were virtually bullet proof in terms of reliability, but they were about the lowest quality vehicles I have ever had the displeasure of owning.
The Phaeton may be many things, but it appears it is not lacking in quality.
Could we [please] include reliability as "a" component of our "this means quality" discussions but not make the leap to reliability being "the" component that determines what is and what is not a quality automobile?
i did not say that the phaeton lacked quality. it has high quality materials and has a high degree of quality in its assembly.
reliability is a separate issue and one that the germans are losing out on.
the reason i like the phaeton is because of its quality of materials and assembly. but no other reason.it lacks elsewhere.
and,what good is a car built with high quality materials and assembly if it is not reliable. i am not saying that the phaeton is not reliable because it has not been out much. and ,based on current sales levels,we will never know because the statistical database will be too small.
anyhow,given that there are only 2 or 3 owners here .it is silly to talk about this .
"The LS is selling at double the 7 and S-class through May as its refresh has been a major success. The S class refresh was a year earlier and it still failed to lead."
When oh when will you ever get it that price has at the very least something to do with this. The average LS sells for 55-63K, you can't get an S-Class for that price.
ffb13,
The Phaeton is not in what class? The FX, 3-Series? It isn't supposed to be. I can't believe you were expecting it to be???
Well, yeah their the latest, newest flavor they can't nominate the Lexus or Bimmers over again it gets redundant.. The Phaeton's an overweight dude just like the W8 was.
Although the A8 was declared the winner...For less money and with a better lease, the Phaeton offers the same engine, the same all wheel drive system, and a number standard features, that are options on the A8L. And...with the exact same warranty...
And more often than not...an interior that is appreciated more than that of the Audi...
I get what you're saying but the A8 won on just those things you mention (like interior) compared to the Phaeton, and more importantly being lighter and a better handling car. They're really not the same car otherwise that would make it all the more pointless to be selling the same car in a VW store don't you think?
Comments
And with a VW badge instead of Audi/BMW/MB.... it will probably depreciate faster than the others, even though I expect both the VW/Audis to be recognized by collectors (in a few decades) as the best available in our time.
So ... lease new, or wait for the lease returns to come back in a few years and save $10k a year depreciation!
- Germany manufactures more vehicles than Canada and USA combined.
- if you look at CARS (not trucks/vans) then VW & Toyota both have higher production numbers than GM (for a few years now), Ford is way down the list, and Daimler-Chrysler isn't in the top 10
- VW will sell more cars in China in 2004 (for the 1st year) than in the US. VW has 38% market share in China
- based on sales projections, AUDI built a factory in China a while back for A4s and it runs at capacity. How many Audi factories are there in North America?
- owning 2 cars in China is a big status symbol. I don't know a lot of people in China, but I do know a couple with 2 cars. And they say that it would cost less to take a taxi everywhere than to operate a car, but car ownership is the ultimate statement
- the most popular taxi in China is the VW Jetta. Due to this there is a huge demand for spare (used) parts. If anyone knows where they can get a few containers of Jetta parts, you can make a quick buck shipping them to Bejiing.
The chairman made it very clear that its reason for existence in North America was "to sell more V6 Jettas".
Where is VW spending its marketing dollars? ... building Phaetons!
And the best part is ... people pay to drive their billboards around town!! Its perfect
First of all, really expensive cars depreciate more rapidly because their audience is so much smaller...Residual values are the best example of this...
VWs Ad & Marketing $$$ are being spent, today, on
depleting current inventories of 2004 Jettas & Passats; not on the Phaeton...
Are new Phaetons, sitting on lots for 150+ days:
A. common as they seem to be here in River City
B. discounted heavily if one makes an overture?
I know there is not an unlimited supply of ad monies, but why NOT raise the awareness of the Phaeton? There were, around superbowl time some pretty neat ads for the thing. . .
It seems as if the electronic media advertising for the Phaeton is slim to none, and slim just left town.
Automobile also did an article on the V12 Audi vs. the V12 Phaeton this month. They favored the Audi because of handling but the better ride belongs to VW. I'd imagine that would hold true for the V8's as well. Give me good handling and a great ride in a car of this size any day - so my preference would likely be the VW if it were between the A8 and Phaeton only.
Having owned a '99 Jetta--the VW brand left a bad taste in my mouth, but a Phaeton (while not in the same class as the E) seems quite worthy. If they had a competitive 36month lease on it, I would seriously consider it.
It's a shame there aren't more owners on this thread. The info is good all the same, though.
Another clue: day 180 2, new Phaeton's held hostage by local VW dealer. Cars kept out of sight and even when you do pull into the lot there is a Passat sitting in front of the Phaetons which means, at first glance, one might actually see only a slightly longer Passat, unless one was actually seeking the Phaeton out.
Monthly lease costs now begin with the #5 and this is with almost nothing down.
Advertising? NONE, ZIP, NADA, ZILCH.
This is no way to bring a fantastic new car -- that after all, IS a bargain -- to market.
Did I mention that all maintenance is included?
Rich, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but can you shed any light on the strategy (or lack thereof, I guess) going on here?
Sure seems like VW is going out of its way to make sure all of the early predictions of failure will come true.
Imagine that happening to the value of your house...This is the opening hand.
We are currently gracing the inside cover and first page of THE NEW YORKER, a two page spread in
the June VANITY FAIR...last month we had the back cover of VANITY FAIR, and again two weeks ago the same buy for THE NEW YORKER...So ad dollars are being spent, just not on TV.
We are bringing 5 new vehicles in the next 18 months...the first two being a new A5 Jetta and a new B6 Passat...thus, job #1 is depleting current inventories.
support...not bad, in my opinion, and speaks volumes regarding the quality of this automobile.
Q4 will allow us to shift focus back to this really great car.
I have 6200 miles on my V8, in service since Dec.7th, and not one glitch, not one rattle, not one squeak. Everything has been plus perfect...same is true with customer cars; all I get are referrals...
Does the VW Dealer in Cincinnati need to get off
his a-- and start Marketing the car? It probably would not hurt...you reap what you sow...
I have to ask this...so what is the point then? No support for the flaship product? It doesn't make any sense. They're only moving a few hundred a month that hardly says anything when competitors are doing 10xs as many. Why would a dealer spend their money on the car when VW itself isn't doing anything either. The whole Phaeton market situation just seems so hopeless and senseless, even being the great car it is. I wouldn't mention that reap what you sow cliche because VW is the one in trouble right now.
M
Pat - all due respect, but I think that the VW Passat W8 may still hold the (rather dubious) record in this category - at least in the past 10 years or so. . .
- Ray
Ex-W8 owner - despite VW (lack of) marketing support, etc.
Ray - okay, I hear you on that one.
There was never the itention to sell thousands of these automobiles every month...It is not a big Passat. Target number was 5000 units a year...400~ a month...We will probably do that next year. Again...each PHAETON is built to order. I cannot order from the factory without a name, address, and customer phone #. We can pull from Ports V8s with Standard paint and Standard options. However; there are no 4 Seaters in Port,
and none with Special paints or leathers.
Next is basic economics and budget...You can only spend what you have, well that isn't always true but that is what we are doing...New B6 Passats are coming and the new A5 Jetta arrives in 6 months. Inventories of current models MUST be depleted, and right now that is the priority.
This does not seem, to me, to be a such a difficut concept to grasp...
I'm convinced of that very same thing, but I think it is VW that has the misunderstanding.....of the luxury car market in this country. The car isn't even meeting the 400 units a month goal either. I understand the point of special ordering each unit to make them unique, but still with no marketing support there will be no one to order them. That part about concentrating on Passats and Jettas is an excuse in my book. I could see if the Phaeton was an old product, but it is brand new and doesn't get much support from the marketing department, that simply doesn't make good business sense, and VW isn't a postion to be so wasteful...building such a extravagant car and then not telling anyone about it. I do have a grasp on the concept, but it makes no sense to anyone but VW employes at this point. Don't get me wrong, I love VW/Audi products but the Phaeton is just pointless as a VW.
M
Also do a search for "Rechtin", as in Mark Rechtin...You will discover a May 5th Story about Toyota/Lexus plans to do a $100,000 automobile...
Are all the dealers going to sell/service the Phaeton?
Thanks,
Scott
24 Month Lease...65%/15K, 67%/12K, 68%/10K
Rate...0.00155
Leatherette, today, is great...Same look/no maintenance...Think MBTex for Mercedes.
i kept looking and again test rode the phaeton,---i really wanted this car.--after much difficulty in dealing with vw dealers in the miami area.........but,the problem with dealers in the miami area applies to all makes,not only vw.---i decided to try elsewhere,and because i also live in the fairfield county --connecticut area,i tried here and it is a pleasure to deal with local dealers versus miami. but,
the problem with the phaeton kept creeping back-----lousy handling--too much understeer......lack of feedback,but great interior,radio.
lousy navigation system
and,lousy computer controls.
i then drove an infinity fx 35----------SOLD.
it drives like a sports car yet you sit high.
excellent navigation controls and all comp. controls great.
radio poor compared to vv,bmw mb and acura.
and it is in a way a luxury car.
the greatest thing ,the direct feeling of the steering/suspension.and the handling vis a vis the steering input.
this is what vw should have built into the phaeton.the connection between driver and car/road.in a great luxury car.
the beemer has lost it here.and so has mb.
even the new bmw 530 with the active steering is not that good or should i say direct.
---( also,i tried the new beemer 6 series and it was o.k. not great . lovely. but no spare tire of any kind.
only run flat tires---which only a few places can handle. here in fairfield county connecticut,only 4 tire dealers can handle these tires .blow one on a trip and get ready to wait it out in a local motel.--)
no ,the toureg is not that good .unless you go off the road.then is one of the best out there.
so,guys,i wish vw the best......but they have failed to build a great car.....they could have.
if you travel to germany and talk to a dealer there you will hear a repeat of the above.
the phaeton has it almost right.......but there is that 2/10 th missing......
The only comment that I can make comes back to this issue of steering. "Servotronic", "Active
Steering", whatever the name, are appreciated or rejected on pure subjective reaction. These things are not good or bad; they just are, and you like them or dislike them. The same can be said for the NAV in the PHAETON.
I sold a V8 PHAETON today to a gentleman whose
first question was about the steering and staying in a lane...after about 90 seconds at 120MPH that objection went away. Next came the NAV..."It doesn't show the street names on the map"...I said, no, the street names are there in front of you on the center screen...They are there so you don't have to take your eyes off of the road...SOLD. After all is said and done the entire purpose of a NAV is to find your way when you don't know where the hell you are...Your only concern is to get to the address that is your destination...The PHAETON NAV system shows you the street that you are on and where to turn next...What else would anyone want to know or see? And...You are not required to look 120 degrees away from the roadway.
And finally...Dealers, whether in New York or Berlin, would love nothing better than for people to walk in and say "this car is perfect, I cannot find anything that exceeds it's capabilities on any plane...I will pay you whatever you want for this superb product".
Nothing is perfect across the board for all
consumers...That is what makes a market...
WELL: Like George Bush, no matter how many times you say it, it doesn't make it "right": One of the primary purposes of a NAV system is to use it as a general reference in an area with which you have familiarity, but are nor sure exactly where to turn.
Your assumption is that everyone takes the time to enter a destination and use it as a definitive navigation system. Most people don't have the time to enter a destination. They know the approximate location, and then make occasional references to the map (with street names) to check progress. Even VW seems to agree and the forthcoming update bears witness to this.
first question was about the steering and staying in a lane...after about 90 seconds at 120MPH that objection went away
You mean, like it would after trying that in any German luxury car?
On the other hand, I also basically agree that I would like the full color moving map option with street names, etc.
My point is the navi system, for my wife and me, now that we have had four cars with it since 2000, is a must have feature and a safety feature most importanty; I'll even go so far as to say it is a security feature. I was in Cleveland and Pittsburgh and I didn't know where I was, but since I knew where I wanted to be I asked the system to "get me the heck out of there" and with a few simple pushes, I found myself in, shall we say, an area that seemed to be more likely to be "low crime."
Without this system, I would have possibly driven around in areas that are better stayed away from.
And, even though I be from Cincinnapolis, where we had our own problems not too many years back, I use the Navi system to keep me out of the unsavory parts of my HOME town.
So, to repeat, I always program my system and I would like to have the full map with names -- luckily this is coming on the VW and Audi products.
I guess I'll reserve judgment with respect to NOT programming where I want to go until I have the luxury of said system in my new 05 Acura RL or Audi A6 (my two current "contendas" for next car purchase).
By the way, the two "hidden in the back of the dealership" Phaetons, are still at my local dealership -- been there now for 7 months.
I think they'd be happy for ANY offer at this point.
Maybe I ought to look at one of those since they would probably be less money than either 05 I mentioned. Hmmmmmmm.
I have to deal with what I have; not what will be...so I understand that my point of view is a bit different, but that said...I agree with Mark.
M
first let me tell you that i do over 50,000 ,miles per year here in the us and in europe .
my daily driver in fla. is a 1955 porsche spyder with a modified engine putting out 175 hp.the car weighs 1200 lbs.
in new england is a 1986 vette conv. and a moto guzzi motorcycle.
in europe is an assortment of hi.perf. cars owned by the company.
so,yes i wanted a car for my trips to fla. and thus i wanted comfort but also feedback and reliability.
i have gone the cadillac route and loved it for the trips but after a few miles it felt like i was under anesthesia. same for the lexus even with the sports ??? suspension.
the sports cars are great for the trips ,but,they do tire you after a while.
the common wisdom is that a car that is fun to drive is a pain on a long trip.
the phaeton ,falls under the anesthesia type.plus it cannot handle.period.
and i have just glanced at an article comparing the vw to the a8 and even thou i only glanced at it,in the summary they confirm this fact.
the mb500 and the a8 ,and the beemer 530i and 745 are very nice for the all around ,and trips. but,the are totally unreliable....
if they were not so unreliable and the dealers not so ....how do i say it.....well ,
i have seen more 500's on the side of the road that i cannot even believe it.and it is all in the computers.they are still writing code for the cars and being updated as people ride them and bring them in for service.
my favorite car is the audi.but no way.same problem with reliability.
this is why the japanese are eating their lunch in germany,and displacing many of the german makes...according to the newspapers over there.
the infinity fx proved to be a nice car . i just took a 1450 mile trip on it and it was o.k.
maybe i have to get used to the higher seating position and some of the road noise from the 20 inch tires.over some surfaces.
but overall it was ok .
you do have to be very attentive at all times as the car will react like a go kart,and you will find yourself drifting into the next lane.
but not ideal.better than the cayenne or the toureg,overall. but if i wanted to go off the road the toureg would be a better choice,
the fx 35 is actually the g35 with large wheels and a big,big body,nothing else.
but quite nice overall.and,reliable........
I cannot believe what a CROCK this entire Steering dialogue is...
I doubt if you'd have the wandering problem with the Phaeton. Large German cars tend to have great directional stability and I know you wouldn't have had as rough a ride in the Phaeton either. I'm surprised you went for the FX considering what a rough and unrefined ride it has over anything but glass-smooth pavement.
Naturally I think your seeing so many S500s on the side of road is overblown. I mean really.
M
I was only trying to find out where the Japanese luxo-makers eat the German brand's lunch in Europe, as indicated by ffb. It does not happen, and the Lexus LS series has been on the market in Germany for more than 10 years. And if Lexus sells twice as many LSs as MB sells S-Classes and BMW sells 7ers, I'd like to see whether they (Lexus) upped their sales or if it's because of the other's decline.
Funny you conclude that Toyota is only now selling cars in Europe, as they've been there longer than in the US. Their success is good, just the Lexus brand won't take off from sales numbers rivaling only maybe Cadillac.
Don't even go down the nationalistic route (look around you here, first), it's just that the LSs, Cadillacs, and Town Cars *g* are simply no match for European requirements and expectations in a car. They probably are more willing to trade reliability and blandness for excitement and minor trouble, but looking at the LS's sales-inspiring redesign, I understand why.
And now let's go back to the last on-topic post, and compare the Phaeton's steering and plow with the competition...
the fx steering is go cart quick.
go drive one. period.
you will be amazed.
it was stated that my statement is full of crock.
i do not insult.
i relate the facts.
people who turn to insults do so because they cannot argue in an intelligent manner with facts.
again,go drive an fx infinity with the 20 inch tires.
and by the way,the body follows through just as sharply.
the car,is almost on par with the the 3 series bmw.and the steering has more feedback than the m3 or 323 or whatever 3 there is including the 5 series. this my friends is a fact.
go drive all of these cars and forget the nameplate. do a blind drive test and see for yourself.
i do drive all of those cars and more .
the vw phaeton is just not in this class.
regarding the japanese eating the german lunch---
it is a fact that in germany,the japanese have surpassed the german cars in quality and are closing in on sales...........not at the luxury level-------on sales that is.
but at the overall level in quality they are ,this according to the leading equivalent of jd power in germany.---i have posted their name here previously and also the statistics so if you are interested go back a few months.
i am aware how long toyota and lexus has been in europe.my statement which i failed to qualify referred to brand,overall.
phaeton-----is an ok car for turnpike driving in a straight line.
but,people are not buying it.
actual production of the phaeton ,originally projected at 32,000 units and then lowered to 22,000 units is , hold on 6,000 units.period.worldwide.
to me ,i am sorry to say,a total failure of marketing ,and primarily product positioning.
i have said many times that i do like the car .i just do not like the way it drives.but the quality of materials and assembly are excellent.
now, before anyone attacks the production estimates as being incorrect ...the source is the wsj.and othe european and usa publications.
and the 32,000 original estimate is the original basis before the construction of the dresden factory which i have seen.
The Phaeton is virtually always spoken of as being a quality piece of automotive engineering and build.
If quality = reliability (and perhaps it does, some folks posting write as if reliability and quality are synonyms) let's just proclaim the most bullet proof car the highest quality -- but I suspect a lot of us would take exception to this notion.
From what I can tell, from a broad perspective, there are (apparently) many high quality cars that are not quite as reliable as "we" would like them to be.
My experience with German cars (limited to three brands that I've actually owned) is that they generally are of the highest quality. Sometimes they are also of the highest reliability.
The Phaeton may or may not be reliable (are there that many sold here in North America for the data to be in yet?) -- I have seen nothing that says it is not of the highest quality, however.
Some of the most reliable cars I have owned seemed put togther with awful fit and finish and constructed of materials and engineered so that I could say they were "rattle traps" -- almost from the very first (a 1976 Plymouth Volare leaps to mind, for one, an American Eagle immediately follows, as does a Vega, another Plymouth -- a Duster, two Dodges [both Chargers] and one Cordoba [yea, with fine Corithian Leather] -- and a GTO [with a Hurst Shifter with a big white ball on it] -- all cars owned by either my wife or me).) These "fine 'sheens" were virtually bullet proof in terms of reliability, but they were about the lowest quality vehicles I have ever had the displeasure of owning.
The Phaeton may be many things, but it appears it is not lacking in quality.
Could we [please] include reliability as "a" component of our "this means quality" discussions but not make the leap to reliability being "the" component that determines what is and what is not a quality automobile?
it has high quality materials and has a high degree of quality in its assembly.
reliability is a separate issue and one that the germans are losing out on.
the reason i like the phaeton is because of its quality of materials and assembly.
but no other reason.it lacks elsewhere.
and,what good is a car built with high quality materials and assembly if it is not reliable. i am not saying that the phaeton is not reliable because it has not been out much. and ,based on current sales levels,we will never know because the statistical database will be too small.
anyhow,given that there are only 2 or 3 owners here .it is silly to talk about this .
When oh when will you ever get it that price has at the very least something to do with this. The average LS sells for 55-63K, you can't get an S-Class for that price.
ffb13,
The Phaeton is not in what class? The FX, 3-Series? It isn't supposed to be. I can't believe you were expecting it to be???
M
The Phaeton is in a new class called damaged goods or
(DOA) dead on arrival if you didn't realize by now.
Best Luxury Sedan/Audi A8L or with a Steel Body/PHAETON
Best SUV/TOUAREG
M
And more often than not...an interior that is appreciated more than that of the Audi...
M