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Hybrids in the News

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  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    ...I should sue Nissan because the MPG readout on my Maxima is always about 3-4MPG higher than what I actually get. Somehow I don't think Toyota is quaking in its booties over this one.

    Sixty percent off EPA is a bit different from 3-4 MPG on your Maxima, dont you think?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    "flaws are significantly worse for hybrids" - and that is the fault of the HYBRID TECHNOLOGY ITSELF? Absolutely not - it can all be attributed to the fact that the Hybrids spend more time in "electric" mode and in "autostop" mode for that idiotic EPA City test - it has nothing bad to say about the hybrids themselves - it's the TEST which is flawed...

    We KNOW that 99% of the population is not getting 60% below EPA because if so, those owners would be rebelling and returning their cars to Toyota.

    quote dewey - "What tests proved the 109MPG figure? "-end quote

    My, My we art behind the 8-ball today:

    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05220/550484.stm
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I trust the GH numbers which are about 48. My sister gets anywhere from 45-52. Whenever I drive it on the highway I easily get 51-53 going between 65-68. That lady DOES sound like an idiot. Unfortunately these are the type of people buying hybrids today. The morons that think... oh wow... I am gonna get 60mpg... Yeah.... right. I understand from that article that Toyota recently sent her a software update via Bluetooth. Now her welcome screen says...

    HAVE YOU HAD YOUR
    PROZAC TODAY?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    The sample at GH is pretty decent - 383 cars, and a lot of those people are not "hypermilers" per se, but people who have normal commutes and normal lives and drive their Prius sensibly.

    48 MPG is 80% of the EPA City rating, and it's 87% of the EPA combined MPG for the Prius, which is 55.5 MPG. That's a long way from missing by 60% !!!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    And Barlow, the lawyer in the group, was pulled over by police yesterday at 2 a.m. because he was driving too slow.

    In order to achieve extreme fuel economy, the team primarily used a gas-saving technique called pulse and glide. It's a form of coasting that involves releasing the gas pedal, then pressing it slightly again to disengage the electric motors. And as they glide, the drivers glance at a built-in screen displaying vital statistics like average miles per gallon.

    LOL, I can ride faster with my bicycle and save even more gas! That article was more funny than serious :D
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    can get FAR ABOVE EPA if they want to.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    HAVE YOU HAD YOUR
    PROZAC TODAY?

    Falconone,

    Driving extremely slow in a depressive state will enhance gas mileage! Prozac may cause more pedal happy behavior and hinder MPG :D
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    All the article shows is that Real drivers on Real roads

    C'mon these real drivers are as representative to the real population as "Barney the Dinosaur" is representative of aTyrannosaurus rex!
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    We're off into stuff that should be part of the Hybrid Gas Mileage: Good? Bad? As Expected? discussion here.

    Let's stick to recent news items in here. I'll be moving post to the appropriate discussion.
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    I'm beating the EPA by a large margin in my 2004 HCH by driving sensiby around the speed limits. A very courtious driver and no tense moments.
    A fun drive.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    http://tinyurl.com/8eua7
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2005/11/25/afx2353866.html

    Great Milestone !! :D:D:D :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    WASHINGTON - Taxing hybrids and other fuel-efficient cars and billing drivers for miles driven are among the approaches being suggested to avert a shortfall in money to maintain the nation's highways.

    http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051125/NEWS01/511250344
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Even if this happened, which involves putting a GPS unit into a person's vehicle and tracking mileage, it will never go over nationally. Some individual states might try it, but it's off the chart ridiculous.

    And it's not FAIR in any way....punish people because their cars get better gas mileage - oh yes, that's completely reasonable !! DUH ???? :confuse:

    Actually, the larger issue is that states are overreacting to lost gas tax revenue. They are not losing "noticable" gas tax to the hybrid owners at the current sales volume of hybrids. Maybe if hybrids hit 30% of the overall USA sales they might feel it, but no state is feeling it now SOLELY because of hybrids.

    States are pushing public transportation like it's the best thing since sliced bread - then guess what? Gas tax revenue goes down because people drive less. Duh again.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They are not losing "noticable" gas tax to the hybrid owners at the current sales volume of hybrids.

    A hybrid that gets 50 MPG pays half the road tax of the like size car that gets 25 MPG. I think that Congress is anticipating an increase in the percentage of hybrids as an overall percentage of cars on the road. In a state like CA it is already several million dollars per year lost. Mileage tax would be a lot easier than the Oregon solution. You just document your mileage each year when you license the car and pay the mileage tax.

    You can bet that Congress will be looking at this in the next session.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    They giveth and taketh away. It will never get passed. I guess that will effect every fuel efficient vehicle besides hybrids. Mark my word....NEVER!!!!!!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Never say never. At least one state, Nebraska, already has a fee like this for hybrids.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Gagrice:

    A hybrid that gets 50 MPG pays half the road tax of the like size car that gets 25 MPG.

    And if everybody drove 50 mpg cars vs. 25 mpg (OR less), our balance of trade, balance of payments, and capitol for internal investment would skyrocket overnight! If we could get off our damned daily Oil Fix, we wouldn’t need to spend $75 + Billion in our favorite country this year let alone next, and next, and next after that … If we were running 50% + Ethanol based FFV’s (including hybrids) and the OTR’s were running B100 - 65% of the year, do you really think there would have been a Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, or Ayatollah Khomeini? Do you think almost 3,000 US citizens would have been sent to heaven in the WTC’s or almost 2,000 American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan? What would we do with all this spare investment capital? Maybe repair roads on our internalized income or on somebody else’s borrowed?

    Lastly, what destroys roads, a 1,900 - 3,500 # automobile on 4 wheels or a 60 - 75,000 # one on 18?

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • jpricejprice Member Posts: 58
    A hybrid that gets 50 MPG pays half the road tax of the like size car that gets 25 MPG.

    The key thing here is "like size car". Any tax of this nature would have to consider the weight of the car in setting the amount of the tax; it would be absurd to charge a Prius (or, even worse, an Insight) the same tax/mile as a Hummer.

    jprice SoCal '05 Silver, #1, 9800 miles, [non-permissible content removed]. mileage 48.2MPG
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Lastly, what destroys roads, a 1,900 - 3,500 # automobile on 4 wheels or a 60 - 75,000 # one on 18?

    Two things, the 18 wheelers are paying about 10 times as much road tax as the hybrid. There is no way that the 18 wheeler does 10 times as much road damage. In fact I would question if the weight per square inch is as high on the 18 wheeler.

    Whatever money would be saved by importing less oil, would not be going into the tax coffers for use on our deteriorating roads. The idea of taxing by the mile is not theory. It is in testing in Oregon right now. It will spread if state governments see a new source of income.

    Mileage tax is a fair tax, most are not. It was mentioned on several major news sources today, so it is on the table. Time will tell.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    it would be absurd to charge a Prius (or, even worse, an Insight) the same tax/mile as a Hummer.

    I would agree that it should be based on weight on the road. The same goes for the fact that right now the Prius weight nearly as much as a Camry and only pays half as much tax per mile.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    THIS is the solution... those vehicles NOT getting at least 50% better combined mpg ratings in their class are charged a penalty double to the current tax... Non-commercial trucks/SUV's not getting 50% or better ratings than their weight class - triple the tax.

    Social engineering at it's finest. It's better than the tax rebates next year because it's of indefinite duration. It's also a kick in the [non-permissible content removed] to get diesel and alternate fuels on the roads NOW!!
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Gagrice:

    There is no way that the 18 wheeler does 10 times as much road damage. In fact I would question if the weight per square inch is as high on the 18 wheeler.

    They do more then 10 X’s the road damage as do H2’s, Yukon’s, Sequoia’s, and F350 Powerstrokes to name a few vs. much lighter weight sub’s, compact’s, and midsized automobile cars and trucks …

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They do more then 10 X’s the road damage as do H2’s, Yukon’s, Sequoia’s, and F350 Powerstrokes to name a few vs. much lighter weight sub’s, compact’s, and midsized automobile cars and trucks …

    I am open to any evidence to substantiate your claim. I agree that heavier vehicles will impact the road more than lighter vehicles. I just don't buy that it is to the extent you are claiming. In fact I would propose that a large SUV with large footprint tires may have less impact on the road than a lighter car with high pressure low rolling resistant tires.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I know i saw a study once that showed how much more road damage they do then regular vehicles but I can't remember the hard numbers off hand. I am sure they are on the net somewhere.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Expand the gas guzzler tax to SUVs!!! Why does someone who buys a Pontiac GTO have to fork over a gaz guzzler tax, while someone who buys a Jeep Liberty (gas) doesn't????
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Gagrice:

    I have read about truck damage to roads many times … Here are just 2 I pulled this morning.

    http://fleetowner.com/management/feature/fleet_roads_hell/

    There is no doubt, however, that heavy trucks put more stress on roads than cars do. Georgia DOT officials, for example, note that a section of Route 400 that banned trucks lasted two years longer than the section that allowed trucks. Heavily traveled roads like I-95 on the East Coast and I- 5 in the West suffer particularly high truck wear since they haul imported goods from shipping ports to population centers north and south … Increase a truck's weight by only 10%, and it causes 40% more wear and tear on pavements, according to Cohen and others.

    http://www.detnews.com/2005/specialreport/0510/16/A15-349720.htm

    Study finds semis pay as little as 40% of the cost to fix damage, ease congestion they cause.

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Some cutting-edge hybrid researchers believe consumers shouldn't have to choose between performance and efficiency. At San Diego State University, engineering professor Jim Burns led a student team that built the Enigma -- a diesel hybrid convertible that goes from zero to 60 mpg in 4.3 seconds while getting 80 mpg.

    http://www.suntimes.com/output/auto/car-news-hybrid25.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think your article makes the case for charging to use the roads by the mile driven. I would think that the economic benefit & satisfaction one gets from having a car that gets 50 MPG and pollutes less would be enough. Why should that person also pay less to use the roads? Taxing semi trucks more is just passed on to us the consumer anyway.

    Highway experts disagree about what injures roads the most — increased traffic, heavy trucks, weather or poor construction — but they do agree on one thing: There's no way to build roads that last forever, and frequent maintenance is required. They also agree that when a road begins to crumble, the longer you put off repairs, the more expensive it becomes to fix it.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Tax non-commercial trucks & SUV's additional for the double whammy they create in our country. More wear and tear and more pollution. All the automakers will fight this tooth and nail since this is the profit hotspot.

    Commercial trucks/rigs are vital to the life of the US economy but there needs to be an impetus to make them cleaner as well. Any vehicle that gets better than 50% more efficiency than the average for it's class should have a reduced tax burden... even heavy trucks.

    This leads into the other neverending discussion on Edmunds 'What must GM do etc....'. In their future reduced structure they should concentrate all their efforts on making the 'world truck of the future'. If they let Toyota jump ahead with some spectacular development coming out of San Antonio they will be doomed.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Tax non-commercial trucks & SUV's additional for the double whammy they create in our country.

    Don't we already do that? The average SUV will pay 2-5 times more road tax than a Prius. PU trucks and SUVs have paid more road tax than cars for at least 25 years. The roads are going to pot "so to speak". Congress is looking for solutions. I think taxing by the mile is the most fair. I'm not convinced that a Prius on little skinny tires pumped up to 50LBs of pressure is not causing more wear to the road than a Hummer with big fat donuts for tires. It has to do with lbs per square inch on the road.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Gagrice:

    You don’t have to be convinced. Wear is caused from the heavy load vehicles, not the light ones.

    If you want to be charged by the mile, I am sure you can find someone in your state that would love to attach a 2-way GPS receiver/transponder to your truck and let it run. I have read of some insurance companies doing this for a slight discount. Go ahead, make your day but leave mine alone ;)

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I'm not convinced that a Prius on little skinny tires pumped up to 50LBs of pressure is not causing more wear to the road than a Hummer with big fat donuts for tires. It has to do with lbs per square inch on the road.

    Why choose the Prius? The tire pressure for the Prius is 35/33. It uses 185/65/15 tires which is the same type of tire used in other small cars. If there ever is a bill passed that taxes cars per mile, people will just not care about conserving fuel. You can argue this all you want. It will never ,ever happen.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You can argue this all you want. It will never ,ever happen.

    It is already going on in Oregon. I just think there is an easier way to administer than the GPS device. Under the Oregon system you will pay $.0125 per mile. That is $187 per year if you drive 15k miles. I think it would be much easier to have your odometer read by the DMV and pay the tax when you register each year. I picked the Prius for two reasons. One because this is a hybrid discussion and the Prius is the # 1 hybrid. Second, those that inflate their tires to get the surface area of their tires to the smallest amount, may be damaging the roads more than those that just inflate their tires to the normal pressure.

    Again this is not something I brought up. It is all over the news this weekend. Congress is looking for money and they have the fat cat hybrid owners in their sights. :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    In 1919, Oregon was the first state to tax gasoline. This fall, the state will launch the nation's first high-tech experiment to tax drivers for the miles they travel rather than the gas they buy.
    The program is the first step in a long-term plan to replace the state's gasoline tax, which pays for about 40 percent of Oregon 's road projects. As in many states, Oregon officials are worried gas tax revenues won’t be able to keep up with the rising costs of road building, especially with improved mileage from both traditional and hybrid cars.

    http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=136&languageId=1&contentId=32957
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I am saying that this will never happen on a Federal level. Every state has different laws/taxes. In GA they have an ad valorem tax based on the value of the vehicle. That can get pricey with fat cats that have MB E/S classes. Same in VA. So let's get this straight... someone who buys a hybrid like the Prius gets about 3k back in tax credits but the government takes a piece of it back each year in mileage usage. As I stated in the Prius forum, Congress is a LONG walk from the Chamber of Commerce. Ain't gonna happen. BUT... if it did... who cares???? BTW... in NY..when you pay for bridge/tunnel passage most of that money goes into public transit.

    This supposed law would effect everyone in the same way. What will eventually happen is that the Feds will simply raise the gas tax. I suggest that they raise it at least a buck so I can drive on glass smooth interstates.

    ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..... let's talk about something more interesting. I didn't plan any trips for this holiday.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    so I can drive on glass smooth interstates.

    That's not a bad idea. I noticed how nice the roads on Vancouver Island are. I guess in Canada they are using those high gas taxes to keep the roads in good shape.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    ...and the same in Europe.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    imagehybrids save gas

    Nicely done. Reminds me of the billions and billions served at McD's.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Moparbad:

    You have to love that kind of news for all our sakes :D Nice find indeed!

    I wonder if a Prius owner will eventually host a web cast w/ the live cam on that billboard? Hint Hint ;)

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Won't be long!!

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/051128-7.htm

    Gotta love it!!!
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    If you want to comment, speculate, cheer, jeer, etc. at this - try commenting here - http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8d89e

    Try it - you might like it! :D
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Tiffany and Cory Heikkila focused on fuel economy when deciding to replace their 1995 Lincoln Mark VIII, powered by a gas-sucking, 4.6-liter V8 engine. After Hurricane Katrina pushed gas prices above $3 a gallon, the Sugar Land, Tex., couple became enamored with the Honda Accord Hybrid. They wanted to reduce the cost of their 50-mile-a-day commute into Houston, but they also wanted a roomy, four-door sedan with some zip. With fuel economy approaching 40 mpg on the highway and a bit more power than the gas-only V6 Accord, Honda's gas-electric hybrid fit the bill. The dealership had one in their favorite color (silver), and they bought it -- just in time.

    Two weeks later, Hurricane Rita forced the evacuation of Houston. Cory, 32, stayed behind, but Tiffany, 35, decided to take their 5-year-old son, Presley, to her dad's house in Austin. They left with a nearly full tank of gas two nights before Rita made landfall. "We got caught in traffic almost immediately," says Tiffany. "We were crawling." The usual three-hour trip to Austin stretched to 11 hours, but every time Tiffany stopped, the Accord Hybrid's auto-stop feature shut down the gasoline engine and the electric motor took over. While SUVs lined up to refuel, Tiffany kept going. "I still had half a tank when we pulled into Austin," she says.

    http://www.kiplinger.com/personalfinance/features/archives/2005/11/carmain.html
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/051129/20051129005136.html?.v=1

    Toyota can do two things:

    Buy Solomon

    or

    PAYUP...

    What are your thoughts?
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    http://tinyurl.com/asopu

    Nice to see everyone working on getting hybrids to market.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think they want a big chunk of every hybrid sold or the contract to build the parts they have a patent for. It must be in the 100s of millions for that firm to mess with it.
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    Read the news with interest that New York City has introduced 10 Ford Escape Hybrids in their Taxi Fleet.
    In city driving Escape Hybrid must be giving atleast 30 MPG which is 3 times that of Crown Vic / Grand Marq.

    Its good for City with reduced pollution.
    Good for Cab Drivers since these vehicles will have lesser vibration with engine idling.
    Advertisement for riders.

    Hope Mariner Hybrid also joins this fleet. After all Escape / Mariner has same cargo
    capacity as Crown Vic / Grand Marq.

    Last time I went to NYC, I saw a lot of Sienna Minivans, seems gas prices are biting the vehicles
    with V8 engines, prompting drivers to move to V6.

    Good luck Ford.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    We hope this corrects any misimpression caused by our latest slogan ("Commute with Nature"). Hybrid technology is not "green" technology. Like heated seats or flashy exterior trim, it's merely an expensive option that generates large markups for the Toyota Corporation and its dealers.

    If you are interested in reading this very objectively written article further then please refer to the following link in WSJ.com:

    WSJ.com

    If you have no access then you can refer tp today's Wall Street Journal newspaper dated Nov. 30 . in the Opinion Section.

    ENJOY!!!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    "Hybrid technology is not "green" technology."

    If that is similar to the rest of the factual errors in the article, I prefer not to read it and WSJ should be ashamed.

    Hybrid technology IS INDEED GREEN:

    2006 EPA Air Pollution Scores:

    Prius 9.5
    HCH II 9.5

    Cleanest cars listed.

    If that ain't green, baby, I don't know what is !!!!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Accusing WSJ for factual errors? Have you even read the article do you know the basis of their conclusion?

    Anybody who prejudges an article without reading it can best be summed up by the following phrase:

    "Please Dont Confuse Me With Facts Because I Love Hybrids"
This discussion has been closed.

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