Hard to tell from the quotes I've seen and heard from rank and file types. Having to be in charge of the VEBA might worry some, so I'll take 64% to try and not go over and move on to the Showcase Showdown :P
That's a tough one. Put me in at a pessimistic 58%.
I suppose if I were a real pessimist I'd say that they'd vote it down but I don't believe that. If they do those Chinese Buicks will be sooner than anticipated.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I appreciate your comments, but I refuse to belong to the ABA, since I truly believe that they only stand for what are, to me, left wing causes...they call every year, and I tell them the same thing, they do not stand for what I stand for as a citizen, never mind an atty...
It may be like the AMA...most doctors, I believe, are not AMA members, but the organization seems to speak for the docs as a whole, until someone pays attention and realizes that there are other competing opinions that are worth listening to...
So, please do not place me in the ranks of the ABA...thanks...
"Those planning to buy a GM vehicle should act quickly," Reed said. "Before the inventory dwindles down and negotiations become challenge as demand exceeds supply." (lots of good quotes from that link)
That is just precious. A good laugh for this evening. L
If asked to lower their wages by one third, and eliminate the paid health plan for current workers, would they still be happy with GM? If that is what it would take to save GM and their jobs here in USA and Canada, would they do it? L
GM of Australia seems to have a lot of the NEW stuff for GM, along with the German Astra to hit the shores soon. All those RWD cars for Pontiac and such are from Australia, I take it??? Now are they Union workers, and if so how do their wages compare to USA wages? The Impala will be built in USA or Canada? L
If asked to lower their wages by one third, and eliminate the paid health plan for current workers, would they still be happy with GM? If that is what it would take to save GM and their jobs here in USA and Canada, would they do it?
They pretty much agreed to eliminate the pension plan, two-tiered wage system for new hires. I don't have all the details but the new hires like the new delphi hires are going to take it in the rear but not as hard. :sick:
I guess Loren, if they saw upper management sacrificing it would be easier to agree to those extreme terms. Right now the UAW, only see's them doing the sacrificing and the over-paid executives are still getting their multi-million dollar salary's and gold standard benefits and perks.
Sorry, just bought a new home. Have to sell the old one first. Then I will buy a couple tickets to Hawaii. I will need the R&R from moving. Two months so far and we are still hauling a load a day. We did get the piano moved so my wife is happy about that. A weekend is not long enough in Hawaii. The flight is too long for less than a week.
As hardcore capitalist as I am, in case you may not have noticed, I do believe that upper mgmt should sacrifice along with the union, simply as a show that "if the company is to survive, then everybody must help"...
After all, the current upper mgmt is not comprised of the folks who started the company, the true capitalists, if you will, they are simply hired help just like the union workers...
So, taking a salary cut, like Lee Iaccoca did back in the old Chrysler days, when his salary was reduced to $1.00, would also help...yes, he was given millions in stock options, but if Chrysler went under, those options would be almost worthless...they only became $20 million because the company did rise from the ashes, and he gets a lot of the credit for it...
I read this article from a UAW worker about the contract they had negotiated with Caterpillar regarding the union controlling the medical benefits. Very interesting:
As hardcore capitalist as I am, in case you may not have noticed, I do believe that upper mgmt should sacrifice along with the union, simply as a show that "if the company is to survive, then everybody must help"...
You, a hardcore capitalist, would of never guessed it. :P Well I'm glad we agree on mgmt sacrifice as well.....
After all, the current upper mgmt is not comprised of the folks who started the company, the true capitalists, if you will, they are simply hired help just like the union workers...
Wagoner, Lutz, and perhaps Ed Wellborn?, might be worth a little bit of money but the rest appears to be overpaid dead weight.
So, taking a salary cut, like Lee Iaccoca did back in the old Chrysler days, when his salary was reduced to $1.00, would also help...yes, he was given millions in stock options, but if Chrysler went under, those options would be almost worthless...they only became $20 million because the company did rise from the ashes, and he gets a lot of the credit for it...
97%, of course. No, actually I don't know what to think. And I don't want to pick in between two already picked; my guess would be low 60%s. I already have an Edmunds love me and I love Edmunds shirt.
Well this is like anything else in life --- If you want what the other person has, you must go for that position in life. The line worker is never going to get as much money as the executive, but then again, they do not have that skill, nor the headaches. You do realize there are many working very hard out there in America for a third the wages of a line worker? This is aside of what they should make of course on their particular job. Just trying to place this in perspective, so you can see where an average American would see the wages as being fair or not. Sure, you can make more money at X job, perhaps many are making the same as a Union job, but then again there are a lot of people way on down the scale from there. - L
Well this is like anything else in life --- If you want what the other person has, you must go for that position in life.
GM, has hired a lot in the 70's, and 80's and a few times in the mid 90's. They also hired 5,000 temp workers who would become full-timers if the contract is ratified. I'm just saying I'm tired of hearing how great they got when most of the people complaining had the oppertunity at one time or another to go work for the Big 3.;)
The line worker is never going to get as much money as the executive, but then again, they do not have that skill, nor the headaches.
I agree they don't get as much as the executives but this is one of the few country's where a executive can make 500-1500 times his plant workers. The Japanese, like in many European, Scandinavian, country's have CEO's and executives that only make 25% more than their plant workers and they seem to be happy. As far as not having the skills, that is something I disagree with you on. Their are UAW folks that have cookie cutter MBA's and PhD's that are just as qualified if not more so than the current crop in power now. As dad, said his plant manager, was just as qualified to run GM, as Wagoner. The guy has a couple of Master's. Sure the line worker's might not have the day to day headaches, but the folks on the assembly line do bust [non-permissible content removed], and do have the headache of worrying about if they are going to see a retirement. It's not like those were guaranteed benefits the last 10 or 15 years. Talk of bankruptcy, poor products, etc, were all issues that effected line-worker confidence in the company and it's multi-million dollar executive team.
You do realize there are many working very hard out there in America for a third the wages of a line worker?
I do and these same people that gripe, complain, whine, about their jobs are the same anti-union crowd that whine when autoworkers get a raise. They can only blame their ignorance. I have little sympathy. :mad:
This is aside of what they should make of course on their particular job. Just trying to place this in perspective, so you can see where an average American would see the wages as being fair or not.
As I said above I lack the time or compassion for folks who are absolutely dumb and ignorant. They try to pretend to be something they are not and when that crowd that they want to be a part of stabs them in the back to move a head and they are left empty handed well they can only look their self in the mirror for the blame. My company, will take care of me are the words utter from these folks mouths. I laugh at em'.
Sure, you can make more money at X job, perhaps many are making the same as a Union job, but then again there are a lot of people way on down the scale from there.
Well they have not abolished the right to organize yet in this country. I know the right-wing, is working on getting rid of labor unions and labor laws. They have had some success with "Right to Work" laws but it is still legal to organize and get a better compensation package for you and your co-workers. If you don't want to do that then don't gripe.
rockylee: My company, will take care of me are the words utter from these folks mouths. I laugh at em'.
Realistically, your view is not much different. You expect GM to take care of UAW members. (Where, exactly, do you think that the money comes from to pay for salaries, pensions and health care benefits of UAW workers? GM!)
The only real difference between you and the (admittedly naive) people you describe is that you want a third party (the union) to get more of the company's money for the workers, using the threat of a strike to do so.
But the ultimate source of that money is the same. You still expect the company to take care of the workers.
But if there isn't any more money - the workers are out of luck, regardless of what the UAW says or does.
The UAW can't get blood from a stone, no matter what they may have told members, or how fervently they believe that GM has secret Swiss bank accounts stocked with billions of dollars.
This is all so true, what you had to say here. If I may, let me take it one level higher than the money coming from GM. The bottom line is that the consumer is money supply. The line worker, advertising people, the service department workers, the owners of dealerships, the designers, the engineers, and everyone up to the CEO, simply works for the consumer. If the boss (the consumer) is not impressed with the car they buy, be it price, value, fit and finish, or the service they receive, it is goodbye to that manufacturer. If the UAW worked with GM to significantly reduce the cost of labor, while having a commitment from GM to play the savings into buying back bonds, paying into retirement commitments they have now, and placing the rest into development for new products, we may not have this on the brink of disaster scenario ever so many years, or worse a bankruptcy.
GM is very fortunate to have SUVs still selling well. With most new product some years off, it could easily be caught in one huge predicament here. Well I hope both sides come out ahead now, so that GM will be around for some years to come and the workers will have those good paying jobs. L
Some would say that both GM and the UAW both have lost sight of that.
Great point. Everybody keeps talking about GM's problem in N.A. is to many retirees per worker. The real problems is to few customers to support the workers, management, and retirees.
Gee, I wonder how many times the word customer came up during the GM/UAW negotiations? I'd bet none! And there's the problem.
I bet you it actually was brought up as the UAW,has recognized the mental lapses management has had with so many products over the years and Gettelfinger, said he wants the UAW to play a bigger role on those decisions because the UAW, workers take a lot of heat building shoddy engineered cars and they not management are catching fire from the consumer. :mad:
Well the big difference is the individual is counting on his superiors to compensate him. The union negotiates using the power of a large group of employees to get what they want.
Unfortunately the UAW, had to give a lot more than they got this contract.
It's as good of a contract as they could get and still help GM, out. Now it's up to GM, management to deliver better products for the UAW workers to build. I really do hope GM, will invest a lot of money here in the U.S.
I'd love to see some great products from Saab, be built here in the U.S. by UAW workers in a new modern plant here in Western, Michigan.
The weak housing market seems to have killed the steady rate increases of the Feds. A bit of luck in a way for GM, as those higher and higher rates would mean that the cost borrowing (bonds) would go ever so much higher. Due to the banking / borrowers crisis, the Feds lowered the rates. Can GM assume those rates to always stay at this lower level. Like anything else, it is possible. This 2 to 3 billion in savings for GM is a good thing, as they claim they will have the added money to do more research, engineering, and whatever. This is fine, but what of the tremendous debt load they have. Is this just something to forget about?
If I was younger, and looking for a good paying job, the assembly of automobiles looks like it still pays well. I just hope the old saying of cooking the golden goose does not apply. The competition, such as Honda and Toyota have so much less in the way of debt. I just hope for all concerned that the weight is not so great as to become a problem, like trying to win a race with a steel ball chained to your ankle.
Anyone's guess as to the future of a national health care plan. Perhaps another one of those bets GM is going have to rely on to survive over time.
When you are up to butt in alligators, it is hard to remember that the original plan was to draining the swamp! Perhaps when you have so many wanting this and requiring that, the proper objective of building a future for GM and thus for steady employment of works for years to come gets lost. I personally think it would be in the best interest of ALL concerned to do some real belt tightening for say a decade, forget about the bonuses, or this guy gets a dollar more, or management really sucks and did this or that a decade ago, and concentrate on having jobs and a company around here in the USA and Canada, as well as Mexico which is able to produce a product which is desirable, while making a profit. And this is all the while paying down the debt. Of course this is a view from the outside looking in, and the workers and management will do as they wish of course. I know, opinions are just a my two cents thing, but I am not the worst one in the world at predicting the future. And 90% or more of you perhaps know more about the inside workings of the UAW and the management of the automakers, so I am but trying to guess at what they are thinking here. I am seeing a little bit of the possible game plan and how things could change over a few years time. One player has taken the bet as far as possible, and bought some time, while the other appears to have done the same, but actually has a second plan in mind. Or is that a third.
As for great products from SAAB, where did the 9-3 come from, as it is listed as the Epsilon platform? Is it a GM or a SAAB platform? Looks like a good entry priced car, especially at year end close outs at dealerships, and perhaps a fun little car to drive. To date, the SAAB car line looks like it is in neutral. - L
Well actually Saab's being made here in the U.S. was and still is being considered. Actually the Spring Hill Tennesee plant was one of the prospects. So I wouldn't call that neccessary a dream.
New Malibu, is an Epsilon :shades: And not a bad looking mid-sized car. Think of it as a relative of the SAAB, or an Aura with a snappier looking interior, or a much improved looking G6. Next up is the luxury models for Epsilon ? Seems they can make anything and everything off of that platform..... OK, no fire trucks...... yet. L
Well we have a SAAB dealer in our company and the techs there that have been around for 20 or 30 years call all the new SAABs Chevys.
We have mourned the loss of SAAB on other threads in the past. Back when Saabs weren't very good cars they had a loyal following that liked their quirky nature. Now that Saabs are much, much better cars they have lost their loyal audience but have not gained a new audience yet. They are essentially a lost brand.
Well it's shared by a lot of different GM brands. Saab, just tuned it to their liking.
Looks like a good entry priced car, especially at year end close outs at dealerships, and perhaps a fun little car to drive.
Yeah, if you want a FWDer and something nicer than the camcord, then a Saab 9-3 is a option. The XWD Turbo X 9-3 will not see those close out end of summer sales.
To date, the SAAB car line looks like it is in neutral.
True, but new and better product is coming which will help a lot.
I personally think it would be in the best interest of ALL concerned to do some real belt tightening for say a decade, forget about the bonuses, or this guy gets a dollar more, or management really sucks and did this or that a decade ago, and concentrate on having jobs and a company around here in the USA and Canada, as well as Mexico which is able to produce a product which is desirable, while making a profit.
I personally hope the made in mexico, bites them in the butt. :mad:
Comments
My bet is 66%. :shades:
I suppose if I were a real pessimist I'd say that they'd vote it down but I don't believe that. If they do those Chinese Buicks will be sooner than anticipated.
Follow the Money
DQ
gagrice, 68%
Steve, 66%
pf_flyer, 64%
fezo, 58%
Steve is a techy.
He doesn't send a check; he just transfers the winnings to your bank account routing number.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It may be like the AMA...most doctors, I believe, are not AMA members, but the organization seems to speak for the docs as a whole, until someone pays attention and realizes that there are other competing opinions that are worth listening to...
So, please do not place me in the ranks of the ABA...thanks...
Message received. :shades:
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"Those planning to buy a GM vehicle should act quickly," Reed said. "Before the inventory dwindles down and negotiations become challenge as demand exceeds supply." (lots of good quotes from that link)
That is just precious. A good laugh for this evening.
L
I don't do PayPal. Or AARP, or even AAA.
Sit Down With Ben
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
Yes- Australian Manufacturing Workers Union (AMWU)
and if so how do their wages compare to USA wages?
Dad, says they make more than he did last he knew.
-Rocky
They pretty much agreed to eliminate the pension plan, two-tiered wage system for new hires. I don't have all the details but the new hires like the new delphi hires are going to take it in the rear but not as hard. :sick:
I guess Loren, if they saw upper management sacrificing it would be easier to agree to those extreme terms. Right now the UAW, only see's them doing the sacrificing and the over-paid executives are still getting their multi-million dollar salary's and gold standard benefits and perks.
-Rocky
-Rocky
That's why I bid low. The good middle spots were taken. Rocky's got an overbid in there.... Now watch me be wrong....
That I'd agree with. Hope one day I get to visit Hawaii.
-Rocky
After all, the current upper mgmt is not comprised of the folks who started the company, the true capitalists, if you will, they are simply hired help just like the union workers...
So, taking a salary cut, like Lee Iaccoca did back in the old Chrysler days, when his salary was reduced to $1.00, would also help...yes, he was given millions in stock options, but if Chrysler went under, those options would be almost worthless...they only became $20 million because the company did rise from the ashes, and he gets a lot of the credit for it...
GM's management is or at least has been a huge part of the problem. Stockholder's that demand increased profits at any cost adds to the problem.
We could use a few more Lee Iaccoca's running the big 3.
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/14216336/detail.html
Any thoughts?
You, a hardcore capitalist, would of never guessed it. :P
Well I'm glad we agree on mgmt sacrifice as well.....
After all, the current upper mgmt is not comprised of the folks who started the company, the true capitalists, if you will, they are simply hired help just like the union workers...
Wagoner, Lutz, and perhaps Ed Wellborn?, might be worth a little bit of money but the rest appears to be overpaid dead weight.
So, taking a salary cut, like Lee Iaccoca did back in the old Chrysler days, when his salary was reduced to $1.00, would also help...yes, he was given millions in stock options, but if Chrysler went under, those options would be almost worthless...they only became $20 million because the company did rise from the ashes, and he gets a lot of the credit for it...
Lee Iaccoca, was a pretty good executive.
-Rocky
-Rocky
newdavidg 72.5%
gagrice 68%
Steve 66%
pf_flyer 64%
fezo 58%
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Rocky
97%, of course. No, actually I don't know what to think. And I don't want to pick in between two already picked; my guess would be low 60%s. I already have an Edmunds love me and I love Edmunds shirt.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-rockylee
GM, has hired a lot in the 70's, and 80's and a few times in the mid 90's. They also hired 5,000 temp workers who would become full-timers if the contract is ratified. I'm just saying I'm tired of hearing how great they got when most of the people complaining had the oppertunity at one time or another to go work for the Big 3.;)
The line worker is never going to get as much money as the executive, but then again, they do not have that skill, nor the headaches.
I agree they don't get as much as the executives but this is one of the few country's where a executive can make 500-1500 times his plant workers. The Japanese, like in many European, Scandinavian, country's have CEO's and executives that only make 25% more than their plant workers and they seem to be happy.
You do realize there are many working very hard out there in America for a third the wages of a line worker?
I do and these same people that gripe, complain, whine, about their jobs are the same anti-union crowd that whine when autoworkers get a raise. They can only blame their ignorance. I have little sympathy. :mad:
This is aside of what they should make of course on their particular job. Just trying to place this in perspective, so you can see where an average American would see the wages as being fair or not.
As I said above I lack the time or compassion for folks who are absolutely dumb and ignorant. They try to pretend to be something they are not and when that crowd that they want to be a part of stabs them in the back to move a head and they are left empty handed well they can only look their self in the mirror for the blame. My company, will take care of me are the words utter from these folks mouths. I laugh at em'.
Sure, you can make more money at X job, perhaps many are making the same as a Union job, but then again there are a lot of people way on down the scale from there.
Well they have not abolished the right to organize yet in this country. I know the right-wing, is working on getting rid of labor unions and labor laws. They have had some success with "Right to Work" laws but it is still legal to organize and get a better compensation package for you and your co-workers. If you don't want to do that then don't gripe.
-Rocky
Realistically, your view is not much different. You expect GM to take care of UAW members. (Where, exactly, do you think that the money comes from to pay for salaries, pensions and health care benefits of UAW workers? GM!)
The only real difference between you and the (admittedly naive) people you describe is that you want a third party (the union) to get more of the company's money for the workers, using the threat of a strike to do so.
But the ultimate source of that money is the same. You still expect the company to take care of the workers.
But if there isn't any more money - the workers are out of luck, regardless of what the UAW says or does.
The UAW can't get blood from a stone, no matter what they may have told members, or how fervently they believe that GM has secret Swiss bank accounts stocked with billions of dollars.
Some would say that both GM and the UAW both have lost sight of that.
GM is very fortunate to have SUVs still selling well. With most new product some years off, it could easily be caught in one huge predicament here. Well I hope both sides come out ahead now, so that GM will be around for some years to come and the workers will have those good paying jobs. L
Some would say that both GM and the UAW both have lost sight of that.
Great point. Everybody keeps talking about GM's problem in N.A. is to many retirees per worker. The real problems is to few customers to support the workers, management, and retirees.
Gee, I wonder how many times the word customer came up during the GM/UAW negotiations? I'd bet none! And there's the problem.
-Rocky
Unfortunately the UAW, had to give a lot more than they got this contract.
-Rocky
It's as good of a contract as they could get and still help GM, out. Now it's up to GM, management to deliver better products for the UAW workers to build. I really do hope GM, will invest a lot of money here in the U.S.
I'd love to see some great products from Saab, be built here in the U.S. by UAW workers in a new modern plant here in Western, Michigan.
-Rocky
Boy, you just LOVE to dream,don't ya?
If I was younger, and looking for a good paying job, the assembly of automobiles looks like it still pays well. I just hope the old saying of cooking the golden goose does not apply. The competition, such as Honda and Toyota have so much less in the way of debt. I just hope for all concerned that the weight is not so great as to become a problem, like trying to win a race with a steel ball chained to your ankle.
Anyone's guess as to the future of a national health care plan. Perhaps another one of those bets GM is going have to rely on to survive over time.
When you are up to butt in alligators, it is hard to remember that the original plan was to draining the swamp! Perhaps when you have so many wanting this and requiring that, the proper objective of building a future for GM and thus for steady employment of works for years to come gets lost. I personally think it would be in the best interest of ALL concerned to do some real belt tightening for say a decade, forget about the bonuses, or this guy gets a dollar more, or management really sucks and did this or that a decade ago, and concentrate on having jobs and a company around here in the USA and Canada, as well as Mexico which is able to produce a product which is desirable, while making a profit. And this is all the while paying down the debt. Of course this is a view from the outside looking in, and the workers and management will do as they wish of course. I know, opinions are just a my two cents thing, but I am not the worst one in the world at predicting the future. And 90% or more of you perhaps know more about the inside workings of the UAW and the management of the automakers, so I am but trying to guess at what they are thinking here. I am seeing a little bit of the possible game plan and how things could change over a few years time. One player has taken the bet as far as possible, and bought some time, while the other appears to have done the same, but actually has a second plan in mind. Or is that a third.
As for great products from SAAB, where did the 9-3 come from, as it is listed as the Epsilon platform? Is it a GM or a SAAB platform? Looks like a good entry priced car, especially at year end close outs at dealerships, and perhaps a fun little car to drive. To date, the SAAB car line looks like it is in neutral. - L
Well actually Saab's being made here in the U.S. was and still is being considered. Actually the Spring Hill Tennesee plant was one of the prospects. So I wouldn't call that neccessary a dream.
-Rocky
We have mourned the loss of SAAB on other threads in the past. Back when Saabs weren't very good cars they had a loyal following that liked their quirky nature. Now that Saabs are much, much better cars they have lost their loyal audience but have not gained a new audience yet. They are essentially a lost brand.
Well it's shared by a lot of different GM brands. Saab, just tuned it to their liking.
Looks like a good entry priced car, especially at year end close outs at dealerships, and perhaps a fun little car to drive.
Yeah, if you want a FWDer and something nicer than the camcord, then a Saab 9-3 is a option.
To date, the SAAB car line looks like it is in neutral.
True, but new and better product is coming which will help a lot.
I personally think it would be in the best interest of ALL concerned to do some real belt tightening for say a decade, forget about the bonuses, or this guy gets a dollar more, or management really sucks and did this or that a decade ago, and concentrate on having jobs and a company around here in the USA and Canada, as well as Mexico which is able to produce a product which is desirable, while making a profit.
I personally hope the made in mexico, bites them in the butt. :mad:
-rockylee