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Brand Problems Swept Under The Rug
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Bottom line for people just tuning in -
#1. Use the hooks for your floormats
#2. Use only one floormat, don't put one (or more) on top of another
#3. Use OEM floormats, or good quality aftermarket ones designed for your car (like Weathertech) with holes for the hooks.
#4. If renting or borrowing someone else's car, check to be sure they are using the hooks and using only one mat. If the mat is not OEM, or you are not sure, please check to be sure that the mat is not interfering with the pedals.
If you follow the above, you will NOT have any safety issues with your floormats interfering with the pedals. This goes for ANY car.
Quick version of the accident that brought on this whole mess:
A Lexus dealer used the wrong floormats AND put one on top of another in a car that was a rental. Unfortunate family was killed because the top cheap, incorrect, and not-hooked floormat interfered with the pedals. The DEALER did not follow directions and caused the deaths of these people.
Good luck to us all. :sick:
What about the other 100+ NHTSA reports? They all didn't have dealer installed mats did they?
(I've always been envious of the Ford keylock buttons. When I did a lot of paddling, it was always a pain trying to hide the key or worry about losing it in the river when you flipped. Even tied-in waterproof gear floats away sometimes).
The 100+ numbers comes from the extremely high volume of cars sold. How many Camrys do they sell? Half a million or so per year? If the average car on the road it 8 years or so, that's 4 million Camrys, and we're assuming all the older-than-average ones have been retired.
My Miata doesn't have any more clearance under the gas pedal than a Camry does, but Toyota sells about as many Camrys in one year as total cumulative Miatas on the road, so you never hear about it on Miatas.
That made me curious so I'm going to search NHTSA's database for the Miata to see if the same issue has come up.
Am I looking in the right place?
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/recalls/recallsearch.cfm
The Miata's pedal is no safer - there are just very few Miatas sold each year, so you don't see any complaints.
If Ferrari sells 100 cars and 2 have a defect, and at the same time 79,999 of the Camrys on the road have a defect, the Camry is still has a lower defect rate (2% for Ferrari, less than 2% for Toyota).
This is largely a game of numbers.
I searched NHTSA's ODI for 2009 model year and Ferarri is not even listed as a manufacturer. They just don't have the numbers produced.
I mean the only reason I don't have Volkswagens is their dismal reliability. This has put me into Japanese cars. There are millions just like me in that respect. So now you have every darn news outlet reporting (for now we'll leave the correctness of tehir reporting out) that Toyotas are death traps. I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop - "well, if Toyotas are no good what about these other Japanese makes?"
Suddenly those safe, solid Volkswagens....
also, the NHTSB reports are misleading, since it is not a statistically relevant sample, since it is not random. It is based on owners that choose to report. We have no idea of how many people had a problem, and ended up at the dealer, but never went and filed a complaint.
If it really is the mat, it always makes sense (at least baed on my history with bunching mats!) that some (many?) drivers would actually figure that out, and pull the mat back to free the gas pedal (if that truly is the problem).
If it was me, I would be more likely to raise heck with Toyota, and got to someplace like the NHTSB, if I thought it really was a mechanical failure, since it would scare the willie sout of me.
But, if I figured out that it wa sa mat issue, I would likely just take out the extra mat, and go on with my day.
I still think there has to be a bigger problem. And for these 103+ reports, how many determined (once the car was stopped), that they had a mat bunched up on the gas pedal? I thought they were reported as unknown?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
When your kids never wipe their feet to get in your Miata, you get rubber mats, trust me! :shades:
"Hey y'all, watch this!"
You really haven't got the hang of this at all have you? You don't go after the mailbox silly, you go after the US Postal Service, they're the ones with the deep pockets.
It was Toyota OEM mats that were recalled a couple years ago. Were they cheap ill fitting? I think Toyota is more aware of the situation than any poster here. They are looking for some way to assure that more people are not killed by whatever causes the WOT and the brakes not having the ability to stop the car.
Maybe GM, Honda or Ford needs to put out a video of a panic stricken driver in an out of control Toyota. Would not be the first time.
Part of Nader’s evidence against the Corvair was a promotional film created by Ford Motor Company, in which a Ford test driver purposely turned the Corvair in a way to make it spin around. Such films were not uncommon. GM also had films showing Ford Econoline pickups standing on their noses under heavy braking.
Sorry, I was educated in public schools, so I'm kinda slow.
I should get a T-shirt that has a disclaimer like that written on it. When I do something stupid, it's the other person's fault for not predicting I would do that stupid thing and preventing me from doing it.
Or maybe a sign...
You can come up with a better conspiracy theory than that.
Maybe this is all to draw attention away from throttle-by-wire systems that jam. Blame it on the mat instead. That's a $20 fix. Replacing the throttle-by-wire system would cost a bunch more.
I expect more from you, Gary! You're slackin' buddy!
The second is a list of investigations opened by NHTSA based on their judgment of numbers and patterns. This list is subdivided into 3 stages: preliminary evaluations, engineering analyses, and formal defect investigations. Most preliminary evaluations are generally closed without further action; the rest move into the serious stage of an engineering analysis. On very rare occasions, a formal defect investigation is opened, which could lead to a mandated recall.
Most of the time, however, cases aren't taken to the final stage -- either the analysis is closed or the manufacturer determines to recall the affected vehicles. Mandated recalls are messy, because the manufacturer can challenge NHTSA in court.
The third list NHTSA provides is of recalls, the vast bulk of which are voluntarily initiated by the manufacturers, and often in the absence of any NHTSA investigation. This is especially true for new or late model vehicles where the manufacturer learns of a problem from the assembly line, dealers, or consumers.
I haven't checked the NHTSA website, but it wouldn't surprise me if the 100+ Toyota/Lexus floormat complaints didn't raise some flags and warrant even a preliminary evaluation (until of course, this very serious crash). Has anyone else checked?
But the fact that the NHTSA issued a press release about the mats makes me think they got at least through the preliminary stage, or at least far enough to justify issuing a warning.
The Ford Econoline wasn't an especially safe vehicle either, but that was more obvious since the driver and front passenger were the front crumple zone. :sick:
I've heard that the 1961-63 Tempest, which also had swing-axles in back, was even more squirrely than a Corvair, but somehow Nader missed that little scandal-in-the-making.
And the fact that there was a previous recall may have influenced the decision.
Actually, I think GM back in the day printed tire pressures on a label on the inside of the glove compartment lid. And the manuals were only about 20 pages long, not the phone books you have today.
Another problem is that gas station attendants (you may be too young to remember them) and even some Chevy dealers used to scoff at such a recommendation and just put 24-28 psi all around in the tires, sort of like 32 psi is a de facto standard today.
Good point about the early Tempests.
Much lower pressure than Firestone would have recommended.
You stick 26 PSI of air in a car then don't check it for four months so it drops down to 20 PSI or less. Now you take the whole family on a trip and overload the Explorer by a couple hundred lbs. I think most explorers had a maximum payload of around 900 lbs. That doesn't take much to bump into. Figure a family of four just by themselves is going to weigh about 550 lbs if they have two older kids. Load up a couple hundred lbs of luggage, a bike rack with some bikes on the back and one of those Thule cargo boxes and boom you are over 900 lbs.
Oh and the Thule box would raise the center of gravity too.
Now drive 75 mph to keep up with the flow of traffic and boom those iffy Firestone tiers can't take all the abuse.
I went through that whole scenario with customer after customer who had explorers back when I ran the shop.
Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems.
Because there are people out there who never, ever check their tire pressure.
That's actually a good idea, but I wonder if we are, perhaps, ... enabling stupidity?
Bear with me, I'll explain.
* Volvo's city safe system will hit the brakes for you. Text away!
* Bluetooth hands-free calling made simple, never mind you're still distracted.
* Someone has a system that sees if the driver is alert. Go ahead, nap.
* TPMS checks your pressure do you never have to.
* Backup cams/sensors mean you never have to turn your neck.
* Maintenance-free batteries means you never, ever check the water level in those.
Don't blame the battery next time you get stranded. You still need to add distilled water every once in a while.
Point is, the automobile is being dumbed down so much, pretty soon we're going to blame cars for not hitting the brakes for us.
Oops, sorry, that's already happened with Volvo.
Toyota says you must press and hold theirs for three seconds to kill the engine. Karl tried the same in a BMW he recently drove, and he found that the press and hold did nothing, but three stacatto stabs did the trick. This sounded great until he found that 4 rapid-fire stabs shut it off and them soundlessly restarted it. Who's counting in that situation? "
Floor Mat Walkaround (Inside Line)
(Hyundai Genesis with mat out of place)
instead of worrying about floor mats, i have vehicles designed not to have that problem. that doesn't solve toyota's problem with multiple floor mats, though.
The first time I tried it out after we got the XC60s in I didn't think anything was going to happen because it waited so long to kick in. When it kicks in it kicks in hard. It kicks in so hard that anyone who actually does use it out in the real world will be snapped back into attention. They are going to get butterflies in their stomach and PAY ATTENTION for the rest of the drive home.
Volvo requires two fast pushes of the stop/start button to shut down the engine while in motion. I am telling all our customers that now. From an intuitive stance that quick two button push makes sense. The first time you hit and nothing happens you will figure you missed the button or didn't push hard enough and will hit it again.
The second hit shuts off the engine but hitting it a third time quickly won't restart the motor. You have to wait a couple of seconds before another push will start it.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
My solution, since the real "feature" is just needing to have the fob in the car (who can be bothered with those pesky keeys, right?) is to have the fob, but have a "key" instead of the button.
get in the car, and twist the key stump. Perfectly logical to anyone that has ever driven, right? And way easier to handle in an emergency.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
There is a deal about the size and shape of a washing machine dial where you would normally put the key. You just turn that to start the car.
Pre-keyless-go MB have a fob setup somewhat like you describe. My E55 just has a fob - no keys - you put the fob in what looks like a keyhole on the dash near the base of the steering column, and turn it like a key to start the car. I think MB introduced this setup around 1997 or so. It works fine.
Sounds practical. I assume turning it off like a key while driving at 80 mph shuts down the motor? I think that's a lot better than the button start systems we're reading about in these recent posts.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You are right about that. So maybe there won't be for on/off button controls either.
I just saw an opportunity for government to mandate safety here. But the wipers and headlight switches are safety-related items as well, and they aren't (so far) controlled. I just spent part of today fumbling with the wiper lever on my Cobalt because I'm so used to the controls in my two Buicks for windshield washer controls; the Cobalt is completely different.
As for the on/off switch for the engine, I'll stay with a physical key or pseudokey like I think fintail described the Mercedes' control.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There's even a "fail safe" hidden blade in the fob that can be used to unlock the doors, I asume in case of battery failure.
With my grandmother's LeSabre, I think sometimes the mat would slide up over the gas pedal. However, since the base part of the pedal was stationary (that was its pivot point), there was no way it could jam the pedal down. And it wasn't heavy enough, sitting on top of the pedal, to push it down any.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
And the starter button under the clutch pedal.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Good. I'd go a step further and give the driver a little electric shock. :surprise:
Just kidding. Sort of.
Think about it - the cop in the Lexus had a plastic mat that didn't have holes in the first place. How would zip ties have helped? :confuse:
This is pointless. The hooks work fine - if people use them.