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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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In that sense, while VW/Audi/Porsche will each sell its own diesel cars, they fall under one parent company: for almost a literal lock on #1 (diesel car sales). I am obviously leaving out the domestics "light truck TDI's (3/4 ton) ".
I am reminded at several points in purchasing diesels, @ each of those times NONE of MB (dealers) that I tried wanted to deal. So it probably might be be MB's cue that they need to get cracking in the diesel segment. So Porsche can either wheel and deal or do what MB was formerly able to do (sell @ MSRP and beyond). It was a revelation that @ least one MB dealer was willing to deal. Financial news (outlets) indicates MB market share and profits are at some risk . Including the MB Sprinter in the "diesel car" category might be a stretch?
With a little work, one has been able to get most modern MBs around invoice for some time. 10 years ago you could easily walk up and get 10% off MSRP on most models. I doubt any real loss is being taken - rather, the MSRPs are inflated to such huge margins, that a lot of negotiation can be allowed and a profit still be made. There are also a lot of customers, especially in some markets, who pay asking price without hesitation, so it subsidizes in a way.
It's a shame Honda couldn't get their diesel here.
I would consider a Q5 TDI in spite of its ugliness. But why if they bring it with the V6 TDI. Might as well get the bigger Touareg that looks great? The only other possibility I see in the segment is the X3 with 4 cylinder diesel. The EU MPG combined is 50.4 (41.9 US MPG). I like the X3 and it is slightly bigger than the Q5 or GLK. Will BMW add the X3D to their US lineup, SOON?
In the hour and a half we spent with the salesman, he told us they were all called down to TX a few years ago to the Group one HQ. Bottom line their profit margin was being cut from 20% to 7%. Is that true, I don't know? I do know they don't want to lose a sale. The only diesel they have difficulty getting is the GL Bluetec for some reason. Which keeps it close to MSRP.
I assume Edmund's has good info when they post their TMV on vehicles. They show the GLK below invoice. My theory is the German economy is struggling. Selling more German built vehicles to the USA boosts their bottom line. The ML and GL are not as easy to deal on as they are built here. I am also thinking of the EU delivery on a GLK. Probably my only chance to visit the EU.
Both are certainly true. However VW seemed to have "bracketed" (was the word I was searching ) the 2.1 L. The 2014 results in 2015 will certainly be telling about that competition. As good as I (and probably you and Fintail) perceive the 2.1 L twin turbo diesel to be, I think only a small percentage (of the smaller GLK 250 DIESEL percentage) will buy only for that reason. Indeed the real metric will be what percentage diesel will it sell of the 2014 MB GLK model line. Last year 2012, GLK sold 29,364 units (none diesel)
Now I certainly wonder if I were now faced with the next diesel buy, if I would make/ have made the same decision. The GLK will almost certainly meet the no chains pass @ chain control stations. Also the GLK 250 @ invoice and below would be a pretty good incentive for me. If indeed it does get 38 mpg that would be ANOTHER powerful incentive. I do have to say I do like the so called (larger) "mid size"d CUV room.
I think the GL Bluetec has tightly managed production to just pace demand. Keeps prices high, every brand needs a little cash cow. The dollar is also strong too, which is an incentive to ship cars over. I don't know if Germany is doing any worse than the US (as German conditions are different than much of the EU), but these cars aren't hand assembled Faberge eggs with thousands of hours of labor put into them - they are mass produced commodities stamped out by the thousands. If you take Euro delivery, do a factory tour, it's pretty cool.
Now that Lexus is an also ran Luxury brand, MB and BMW are the top dogs again. BMW outsold MB last year and MB is not taking any chances this year. So far they are in the lead.
If the Germans could get a credible hybrid for those who salivate upon seeing that word, they'd move ahead too. Electric models have to be coming.
If the Passat only had 40 more horsepower I would very much consider buying one. So, the only two mid-size sedan Diesels I would buy is this one, and the Mazda 6 TD coming on the fall.
I am glad I still have a few years before my car is paid off, as it will give me more time to make certain the Mazda 6 earns a good reliability record. So far my wife had a 2004 Mazda 6 Sportwagon (Black V6 loaded). I loved that car.....but it was not as reliable as we would have liked (trans and A/C compressor issues) and expected out of a $32,000 Japanese car.
On the mid size sedan forum I learned the the 2004 to 2008 Honda Accord had transmission problems too, so buying only Accords year after year (for example); does not always guarantee bulletproof reliability. I am glad that my parents ground it into my head to never buy a car during it's first model year, and to use Consumer Reports as well as do research before showing up at the dealer, cash in hand. A recent study also showed that 25% of new car buyers never even test drive it!!! OMG!!!
It is a real shame that Honda (Accord) after having been the "leader" in a lot of metrics AND for a LOT of years, has not been able to get the transmission (actually much much more) sorted. While the expectation of the Mazda TDI is exciting, one part that does give me the heebie jeebies IS the transmission. The good news here and bad news is 310 # ft.
An 04 Civic @ 135k miles consumes lot of its wear items at roughly twice the pace of the Jetta TDI and they are WAY different animals, the Jetta being "porkier". The 04 A/T also has those A/T issues and I have heard it from both the Civic web sites and my mechanic. They say that IF it is going to fail it will fail at app 200k to 250k miles.
Now I am not disappointed in the least, as I bought the Civic knowing full well that was the most likely scenario. Honda in their advertisements even has said it (small small small print) and other Honda and Civic specific web sites confirm this over and over and over again) The Jetta and Civic must talk to each other (yes stable mates) for both the driver's side low beam head lamp has burnt out.
What do I take from this? NEVER, never, never let a machine know you need it.
This is purely an intellectual exercise, but you might want to ask the question of what your 12 Optima would need to jump its torque 50# ft to match the Passat TDI. That is even if it could or should be done at all. Another might be what would be the new fuel mileage once you have even upped the torque ratings to match the Passat TDI's. Does it match it now even with 50# ft less? . Then would your mpg match @ 43 EPA H ?
While Passat TDI's are not on this list (neither are TDI's as a VW category) IF VW is smart, they will work REALLY hard to get OFF lists like these ! You don't want to be on a top ten list like this
# 2 Jeep has this eye opener:
..."Jeep complaints were not largely limited to one component of the cars. Jeep powertrains, interior electronics and hardware, chassis suspensions and axles, fuel/emission/exhaust systems and steering components each accounted for more than 10% of the complaints customers reported last year."...
The nexus here is not the Italian diesel engine (with no real world US market history) , but the shared common parts bins.
"The 2013 Passat TDI is simply a big, solid sedan that will swallow four adults in leg-crossing comfort while delivering fuel economy that will let you drive from L.A. to Vegas and back on a single tank of fuel.
Sounds like a perfect candidate for our long-term fleet. Flashy is fun for a little while, but it's the day-in and day-out functionality of a car that makes it attractive in the long run. Now we have a year to find out if the practical charms of the Passat remain over the long haul. And given its monster range, it could be a very long haul."
2013 Volkswagen Passat TDI Long-Term Road Test
While we have been VERY happy with the 09 Jetta TDI, IF the Passat TDI were available, it would have been a hard choice to have made. The 09 was the last of the contented Jetta's. However it had the now one off catalytic smog system. The AdBlue system has really proved itself to be quite seamless, albeit a slightly more PITA procedure and the mph is actually 7.5% more while being bigger. I would dare say on that trip, I do not think the 09Jetta TDI would have any trouble getting 42 to 44 mpg. So if the 2013 Passat TDI is rated @ 43 mpg. 45 to 47 would probably be a no brainer.
They will be joined by two models developing 160 kW/218 hp - the BMW X5 xDrive25d with average fuel consumption of 5.9 litres per 100 kilometres (47.9 mpg imp) and CO2 emissions of 155 g/km, and the BMW X5 sDrive25d, which has average fuel consumption of 5.6 litres per 100 kilometres (50.4 mpg imp) and CO2 emissions of 149 grams per kilometre (provisional figures, according to the EU test cycle).
All versions of the new BMW X5 are already compliant with the EU6 emissions standard, which will apply from September 2014. On the diesel models, the lower nitrogen oxide limits are met using a close-coupled NOX adsorber catalyst and an SCR catalyst with urea (AdBlue) injection.
The BMW X5 sDrive25d is expected to be available from December 2013.
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/x/x5/2013/showroom/dynamics/diesel_engines- .html
as far as the cayenne diesel , its nice but the stickshift cayenne version is what really piques my interest ! ! ! i'd like to own/drive/lease/rent/boost the 7th stickshift cayenne in the US, or whatever the count is by now.
Now I would be one of those (extreme minority) that would consider a 7/8 speed M/T. But even I know that is not only before its time, but there are very few on the open market. The only American one I would want (not that they care about my choices) would be a Tremec, but that defeats your very first logic point. It also makes the logistics FUBAR. Of course the real party killer is we would expect the M/T to be easily way cheaper.
Here it is I think his is/was about a 2002 model.
These cars are stupendously complex, and were real bleeding edge tech when new - so they can have lots of issues. Not for the faint of heart.
How about a X3 2.5d sDrive? I really hate that BMW FORCES you to get the xDrive on all but the X1's..
June C/D has a "Sport Sedan Slug-fest"comparo, and the IS 350 came out on top against the 335i M-Sport and the Caddy ATS 3.6. To be honest, I can't believe it myself. I like the Lexus. The BMW and Cadillac styling makes me bored and sleepy...really...the Lexus is a cool looking car.
The however is that there were no Audi or Mercedes entries, so the Lexus is still in 3rd place, IMO. BMW has GOT to step up it's game in the styling department. I am sick of the front ends from 1999. Do something NEW BMW!!!! Also, the Caddy interior made me vomit a little in my mouth. Remember Ricardo "Khan" Monteblan peddling "Rich Corinthian Leather"? See page 49 and you will remember!
Sorry I got off topic; but you guys started it!
High-mileage, TDI® Clean Diesel models accounted for 22.3 percent of sales in May and 21.7 percent of sales year-to-date, the best year-to-date on record
“In a month in which the industry saw strong growth in the pick up truck segments, an area in which we do not compete, we are pleased to see healthy consumer demand for our passenger cars, especially the growing demand for our TDI Clean Diesels and Hybrid line up.”
Citing, “Proof that German Engineering is worth every penny,” Consumer Digest awarded the 2013 Passat a Best Buy award. In May, the team in Chattanooga reached a new milestone when they produced the 250,000th Passat. Over 31 percent of the Passat’s sold in May were TDI® Clean Diesels.
The stuff about the Passat is a confirmation that VW did the right thing (market wise) way back when, on the Tennessee Passat plant. I have read the TN plant produces Passats ONLY for domestic consumption (US) . It is also interesting to see the US market in effect has purchased 22-25% percent TDI's. Combined with VW sales efforts, May's 31% exceeds their goals. I am swagging this gives a green light to other oems to sell domestic TDI's. So in that sense, no good deed goes unpunished.
Well, Jeremy has the deep pockets to buy them, (he owns a "Black" model) and also the deep pockets to fix them.
I wonder how cars that are used on the show are sold? I bet a "previously used on Top Gear" car could fetch quite a few Ducats.
My personal favorites? The 2006 Toyota 4x4 Hilux 3.0 liter. They are my very favorite looking off road trucks....and yes they are Diesels!!! These were the red ones that they used to drive to the North Pole, and that James May used to drive up to an active Volcano in Iceland. BTW, the trucks were modified by Arctic Trucks in Iceland (very accurate, if not inventive, company name). Again, Diesels reign supreme!
I don't know if I would want an old TG test car.
I think the old Hilux that they have smashed and dropped etc is a diesel too.
The luxury car race between BMW and MB is heating up. BMW sold more in May than MB. MB still has a good lead for the year. Should make buying easier as the two compete for the buyers. Lexus is still far behind. Maybe they will see the light and offer diesels.
In the case of the just-on-sale 2013 Mercedes-Benz GLK250 4Matic BlueTec, no time at all. Zero. Not a second. This $43,500 compact SUV starts at a lower price – at a lower price! – than the gas-powered GLK350 4Matic ($44,900). How is that possible? I mean, cleaner diesel technology is expensive, adding perhaps $3,000-$5,000 to the cost of a vehicle.
“We lose money,” one Mercedes insider told me at the preview of the revamped GLK. What? What kind of car company loses money on what will surely be one of its most in-demand models. Because let me say this right now, if you’re in the market for a premium SUV of this size and with the GLK’s capabilities, you simply must test drive the GLK diesel. I’m betting you’ll like it.
Why on earth would anyone buy the gas model, then? Well, almost no one. Mercedes Canada would not be surprised to see 90 per cent of GLK buyers go for the diesel. So much for profitability. “We lose money,” remember.
Interestingly, the RX is about the same size as the GLK250, but lists at a much, much higher price – $56,750. If you want the cleanest SUV, get the Lexus.
unless you want the X1 6-cyl turbo... then they force xdrive on you.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
And one for Gary:
2013 Mercedes-Benz GLK-Class Video Review
That is almost always the starting point. I would agree on those counts. It will be interesting what individual dealerships will be willing to sell their inventories @.
For as many miles as you put on your SUV per year( avg) it almost makes no sense to switch. We are getting 16 mpg on the 94 TLC on the SOS DD trip.
I think the GLK diesel summary says it all. It fits our needs for a daily driver and short haul vacation vehicle. Waiting for some real world mileage numbers.
And with gas hitting $4.19 here today, Southern California is looking better and better. Need to convince the in-laws to move back to San Diego. Michigan isn't wearing well (having to run the furnace some this morning isn't helping either).
I took it from a pause frame of the video Steve linked to on Edmunds. It is for a GLK350 so don't know whether to assume any of these below would be affected by it being the diesel or not..unlikely as near as I can guess.
Notice a few example I typed in the price in Cda and the horrendous % premium we pay here for the IDENTICAL item. (I used Invoice)
I wish I better understood your USA pricing. The term Invoice and TMV are not used here. They go with MSRP and you try to work your deal from that. Obviously there is an Invoice (what the dealer pays right?) but here in Cda that figure is a well guarded secret...not at all like the full disclosure figures you guys get to work with
That said, I am awaiting a salesman to get back to me with some special packaging that is being made available here in Cda "for a limited time".
I cannot recall the acronym but there were two in particular..one loses the sunroof but offers other items regularly in that group (good for me) and another loses the Keyless-GO. I think one was called MCO X? The X part is the only part I am sure of.. He said pricing was attractive, but he has not emailed me the details..I think he forgot.. as he was waiting for me to make a test drive appointment. Too busy with other stuff right now though to do that.
I don't like to get too swept away with potential internet fear mongering when discussing discount pricing that may not last...but that said, I do remember in the past certain deals that came along on something, and damned if it really was the RIGHT time to not dilly-daddle, cuz sure enough the price DID go up a fair bit on something that was considered 'sought after'. Of course there is always the fact that every month we get closer to Sept, 2013's are getting that much closer to being a year old car before you drive it off the lot. Not bad if you're a keeper, but if something comes up in life and you have to part with it prematurely, that one year is a BIG deal, and whatever "deal" you get for buying new non-current, doesn't hold a candle to the depreciative loss that one yr represents if you're a non-keeper.
GLK350 invoice 36354 MSRP39090 True Mkt Value 35945
lighting pkg 1200 1290 1186
multimedia 2595 2790 2565
Prem 1 pkg 3209 3450 3172
full leather 1953 2100 1931
black ash (SPC) 0 0 0
active parking w/Parktronic 902 970 892
SPC unavail 250 230
driver assist pkg 2744 2950 2713
prem 1 pkg w/o panorama roof 1907 2050 1885
running boards 623 670 616
heated fr seats 698 750 690
hitch 512 550 506 512 is 32% more than the 675 here
harmon kardon prem sound 753 810 745 35% more here
keyless-go 605 650 598
AMG styling pkg 1851 1990 1830
sirius sat radio 0 0 0
In today’s market, that isn’t necessarily true. The price of late model used cars is insane, in many cases very, very close to the discounted price of the new one. I find it easy to believe that you might be able to purchase a left over, new car (last year’s model) cheaper than a 1 or 2 year old pre-owned.