Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options
What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Crappy world at times, eh...being paranoid...err...aware..of the more obscure things that draw thieves.
Maybe our penalties for catching thieves is not nearly severe enough? Actually, I have been maintaining that for years..I'm not sure how liberal your US laws are...probably varies by State a fair bit...but here, it is a very very fine line who would do more time for defending your home and family if you catch a crook in the act. Things in that way these days sure are screwed up.
Would you say your 07 and 2013 TCH is non-proportionately quieter than the Prius? I hear the Prius is actually really quite loud to drive in. And it is assumed that hybrids must use less sound insulation in the quest for lightening/FE (misplaced economizing if you ask me though). So maybe to elaborate, would you say your Camry is obviously quieter than a Prius, but your comment about it being quieter than the Passat TDI sorta jumped out at me. Naturally not talking about when the TCH is on electric only, but I picture it actually being noisier on the freeway when trying to keep up or accelerating across a few lanes to make an exit or hill climbing. It sounds like it is not even in the same league of quiet, considering it is still a hybrid. Maybe Toyota threw all caution to the wind in lightening, and insulated the hell out it? Would you say the 2013 is quieter than the 07?
Their (Prius too) reliability is truly shocking..who wudda thunk...
..."I was looking to trade my long-in-the-tooth 2007 TCH recently, and REALLY wanted to give the Passat TDI a fair chance."..
If it were me , I would have kept the 2007 TCH, if not only for all the good luck that you have had with your particular vehicle. 114k miles in 7 years ? That is only 16.2k a year avg. GEEZ a literal babe., just broken in ! Why would 250k to 300k miles be anathema to you? While there are a lot of folks on this board that "discount payments," little to no payments would be a lot better !!! Just another 7 years or 84 mo would be 84 mo of $XXX NO payments. That is whether or not you having gone through what you have gone through. All the best with your situation and new TCH, now that you have made the switch.
I could overlook some other issues with that vehicle. No problem getting 40 MPG highway. I just don't think MB will sell them in the USA. They may be produced here and shipped back to the EU and elsewhere. I believe all the MLs are from the US plant???
Anyone going to test a Cruze?
"Chevrolet has begun selling a diesel version of its Cruze compact sedan, Chevy’s first diesel in the U.S. since the 1986 Chevette.
Over those 27 years American consumers have embraced diesel engines with the same excitement they usually reserve for a root canal, unless they are of German descent or visit Europe often. Volkswagen has dominated the small segment in this country.
But GM believes it can convince consumers to reconsider diesels, which currently represent about 3% of U.S. vehicle sales compared with about 50% in Europe. To do so, it will have to show gasoline-loving Americans that diesels are no longer noisy nor smelly."
Can Americans drop diesel phobia, embrace new Chevy Cruze Diesel? (Detroit Free Press)
(Here's where you insert the joke about how GM will set diesels back another 20 years with this iteration).
..."which currently represent about 3% of U.S. vehicle sales compared with about 50% in Europe. "...
The good news, if your quote is true, the (US) diesel passenger vehicle fleet has grown from a recent 50% of the fleet (50% were TDI "light trucks" ) to 60%. or app 7.752 M units.
I can compare the 2007 TCH to the 2013, and it's VASTLY improved !! Better mileage, quieter, more powerful, tighter handling (not by much, but noticeable,) better seats.
And the engine noise which intrudes into the cabin is much reduced, as is the wind and road noise.
I love the 2013 more than I loved the 2007 when it was new.
First, I saw a lease for $199 (for which i did not qualify, but that got me into the door.)
I also was a little worried about the TCH hybrid system, being that after 100K miles it was out of warranty. It never gave me a LICK of trouble, but I was worried that if it DID do so, then I would have a whopping $2K-$4K repair bill.
Also, it needed tires and struts and a few other items, so I figured put money into a new car is better than throwing money into an older car.
They gave me fairly good trade value at $8800, so that was also an enticement.
I think it was a great move. Next stop, Avalon Hybrid in a coupla-three years.
One of the C-Max guys said his cab drove good but he was worried about having to pay $9,000 to replace the battery in a few years. I told him that was a NYC price.
Really eh? How far away are you talking? Any chance you are heading north to Muskoka? We could go for lunch. Or I could tour you around some of the more scenic roads up here around the 3 big lakes..Lots of lakes but the big 3 rich ones are near me. Be better if you guys were on bikes, then it would have to be a not miss for sure. Limme know!
http://www.mercedes-benz.ca/content/canada/mpc/mpc_canada_website/en/home_mpc/pa- ssengercars/home/new_cars/models/glk-class/x204/configurator/configurator_x204.h- tml?tp_ccci=/dsc_ca/globalsessionid/DSC_ca3E2F38343A67686AFF500A0600015400/dsc_l- ocale/en_CA/appId/DSC_ca/siteLocale/en_CA/P3501ViewBean.jam1%3bjsessionid=0000a1- RPp7C76NeC5mOHCp1w8Bz:16p745vrf
Going to the MBUSA site they are now listing the GLK250 Bluetec 4Matic. The price listed the way I would configure is $49,350. Edmunds shows a TMV well below Invoice. So I will have to go take a look for myself. In fact there is a pretty good inventory.
I was told the V6 diesel is going away in the E, as the E250 will replace it, not be alongside it. I have to imagine there won't be 2 different GLK Bluetecs.
No luck with diesel cabs today and all four of us looked.
Do you know the day and time you're gonna be in Orangeville? That's about 2 hours one way from here but hey..I'd like to make the effort. Opportunities like this don't come along too often. If your schedule isn't cut in stone (as I can appreciate given the circs) then not to worry or stress about it..only if it might work out. I'll email my contact info on that chance.
If I've missed you already..not sure when you're leaving?..safe journeys on your holidays and enjoy!
On the 44-mile first leg, our GLK 250 BlueTEC diesel crossover showed us an indicated fuel efficiency of 33.1 mpg. On the longer 64-mile return leg, it registered 34.9 mpg.
Which reinforces the common wisdom that diesel cars do better than their EPA ratings in real-world use (while the same cannot be said of certain hybrids).
The same 2.1-liter twin-turbocharged diesel engine that's used in the GLK 250 BlueTEC--which produces 200 horsepower and 369 lb-ft of torque--will be launched this fall in the E 250 BlueTEC 4Matic mid-size luxury sedan as well.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1083891_2013-mercedes-benz-glk-250-bluetec-f- uel-efficiency-drive-report
We're camping but maybe not if the flies are out! (I heard that burning a bit of diesel in the campfire clears out the bugs. :shades: )
If you can live with the smaller size of the GLK, it is probably your best bet for an economical AWD diesel. You won't get a JGC, Touareg or ML anywhere close to the prices I am seeing for the GLK. The TMV listed by Edmunds for a basic GLK250 Bluetec is $36,070. That is about $9k less than a comparable hybrid CUV from Toyota. Nothing will come close to the highway mileage they are claiming in Canada.
Amusing how the diesels are underrated on the highway, and that Canada apparently rates them higher. If I can pull off 45mpg highway in my E, with no real effort, the smaller engine should be worth at least a few more mpg. I am not sure if they all will be 4matic - E250 4matic wagon would be something, especially if it includes the relatively lower price as seen in Europe with 350 vs 250.
A lot of gasser advocates and owners want to discount some of the advantages of TDI's, simply do not have significant diesel time. Another is those same advocates want to ignore the math of it also. IF a diesel owner only uses diesel, that owner is TOTALLY OFF RUG/PUG ! ? I would submit the math will speak for itself in most cases.
I have cited my own SUV-4800#'s 15 mpg RUG/CUV 4974 #'s ULSD experiences. (same to similar applications- competitors) Over 250,000 miles I can expect to consume 16667 gals vs 8333 gals . As good a work horse as the 94/96 TLC's have been, the 2013 VW T TDI is almost WAY more fun to drive. So not only have I consumed 100% more fuel to go the same mileage I have consumed RUG, which the regulators (if they are to be believed) want me to consume far less of. So when I consume 100% or more LESS RUG, they penalize folks like me that comply or exceed their legislation and laws and compliance :sick: .
One good thing about black flies over mosquitos tho..two actually...first while they get especially fierce prior to dusk, they are not active in the dark. Plus, if they follow you inside, they go for the light and windows to get out. Well..three good things when you consider their season is only about 6 weeks or so.
You can actually stand inside the garage with the door wide open, and they (just the odd one might come in) only go to the opening. Step out side the door 2' feet and can drive ya nuts..step back in for reprieve..it's a bit unreal.
GLK250 Bluetec 4Matic fairly well loaded. Starting was no louder than our Sequoia V8. Though a different sound. Throttle very responsive and quicker acceleration than our big V8. We jumped onto Interstate 15 for a few miles and he asked if I was interested in back country roads. I told him he was reading my mind. He guided us to several roads very similar to where we live with all the ruts and potholes San Diego is famous for. The car handled very responsively and soaked up the potholes nicely. With a base TMV of around $36K it is a bargain.
ML350 Bluetec 4Matic loaded with all the gadgets. $60k on the window sticker. Right off you can tell it is far more luxury ride and handling. I don't think the V6 is any faster in the ML than the 4 banger in the GLK. The ML is smoother and more comfortable riding. He took us on a different course with all the same potholes and roughness. Very nice ride for sure. When we got back we discussed buying briefly. I asked how close to invoice they were dealing. His response and the managers he introduced me to was we don't lose sales on price. I had my mind set on Diamond White. After seeing one side by side with the Arctic white, I don't think the pearl is worth an extra $1500. I am also thinking I like the MB Tex as well as the $2100 leather. There was no high pressure, just gave him my email to send me vehicles as they come in. He also followed up with a very cordial email.
Conclusion: My wife feels the seats in the Sequoia are more comfortable than the ML seats, which I agree. Without taking a 500 mile run it would be impossible to know how they would be on the long haul. We know how the Sequoia is after days as long as 1030 miles. If the Jeep Grand Cherokee Diesel does not have more comfortable seats than the Sequoia, I don't think we will replace it soon. HOWEVER, I am thinking a base model GLK bluetec might be a great runabout car. Get rid of the old Lexus and use the GLK day to day and short trips to the mountains and desert.
Mercedes Benz of Escondido is a class operation. Owned by Group One out of TX.
http://www.mbescondido.com/models/mercedes-benz-glk-class.htm
36k as fairly loaded? for a 4 matic? Wow, that does sound really enticing. Although prices here in Cda take a lot of fun outta that excitement I can tell ya...I had trouble with the Build and Price not loading, but I think they start at 43500. here? And as we know, MB strategic option pkging takes it higher pretty quick.
I am so curious now I think I'm going to have to search one out. Nearest dlr is about a 3 hr return trip.
How quiet was the GLK? Altho granted tough to relate back a comparo..
But I've been in an ML although not alone and that is when you really can tell how quiet the ride is..after about an hour or so. Same with seats...they need some time to reveal themselves.
So how did the seats compare to the ML's?
edit - so was able to access today. The car I'd get would be $49275. + fees, taxes, Cdn gouges etc
conv pkg $1700.
comand nav pkg $2400. yes they spelled it with one m
harman/kardon¨ LOGIC7¨ Surround Sound System - $1000.
Trailer Hitch $675.00 - yup, and it ain't even a 2" receiver type
They only come as 4Matic. Look at the standard equipment list. I would probably add the trailer hitch and maybe Premium 1 without sun roof. The NAV unit is in there. I think that is part of the monthly Mbrace program. Even with those features added Edmunds says I should get it for $38,440. Without the Prem 1 package it is about $2k less. I only want the power liftgate and garage door opener from that package. If the garage door opener is no better than the one in my Toyota, I could just use the standard one. I would only buy this vehicle for my day to day vehicle. And short trips maybe as far as Vegas or Tahoe. I did enjoy driving the GLK. Much more sporty feeling than the ML or our Sequoia.
Wow, our option choices are TOTALLY different (as I suspected...we get SO ripped off here)
I don't want a roof - here, it doesn't look like the base has Nav - that is extra as mentioned above.
And power liftgate etc looks to be only available with all the other stuff that comes with it. I'd like that one thing, but they are usually slow and ornery..but not at 3600. Actually it has a lot of stuff for 3600. all superfluous crap, incl a sunroof (which strategically MB has placed), and park assist etc, but I don't want, even if it were free. Perhaps if I ever started smoking again, the sunroof would be useable. But so far I have 22 years or so under me...and no one's gonna be allowed to smoke in my Benz anyway...not even Leryn Franco... :shades:
It was not as quiet as the ML or my Sequoia. It was not loud like a CRV or Accord. To really tell I would need to get out on the open road for a bit. It soaked up the roughness very well. He took us on a pretty bad winding road. And it was fun to drive. Very good acceleration from a rolling start. Still feel a slight bit of the turbo lag. Not as much as our old Passat TDI. The GLK takes 7 seconds to 60 MPH. A lot faster than my Sequoia and it felt faster than the ML.
On the transmission. I especially let off from about 75 MPH out on the freeway with both. No downshifting like I got from the 2007 GL320 CDI. So they have either refined or there is a way to program that out. The transmission in both were flawless. They both come standard with paddle shifters on the steering wheel. Ours was a 2 hour round trip to test drive and well worth our time. Even my wife enjoyed the test drives. I think it was the low pressure salesman that made it so pleasant.
Take the GLK 250 BlueTEC 4MATIC for example. It has the most powerful four-cylinder diesel of any SUV worldwide. With its common-rail direct injection, it's rated at 204 hp and, get this, 369 ft. lbs. of torque from a mere 2.14L. Equally important is its extreme frugality: up to 38.6 mpg (or, 6.1L per 100km if you prefer metric). C02 emissions stand at 159-169 grams per kilometer, and it complies with U.S. BIN-5 emissions regulations.
Looks like the mileage ratings in the EU are very similar to Canada. And yes that is 38.6 MPG US combined.
My aunt and cousins that live in Toronto say the same thing. Maybe you can order without all the foo foo you don't want. Yes the liftgate is slow. My only reason for wanting a power one is my Sequoia rarely goes up full heighth and I walk into it. I complained from the get go and the dealer was like "too bad that is the way those hydraulic lifters work". Very POOR design. They are also available from the USA with EU delivery, which I am thinking about.
My take is that diesels should really populate the large car/PU truck/SUV/CUV markets as 20 to 25 mpg is really the "holy grail" for those segments (30-35 mpg being in TALL COTTON) and the performance parameters can be better customized for those applications. Most folks who buy that segment anyway do NOT need stump pulling engines. Again the most logical is that the large car/PU/SUV/CUV is fully 75% of the passenger car fleet anyway.
Again this is in the forward looking framework of the 50 mpg standard.
Fully agree. My take is the engine in the GLK250 Bluetec would be more than adequate for my Nissan Frontier PU truck. I would bet it would double my mileage. The Mercedes 4 cylinder has almost a 100 ft lbs more torque than the V6 in the Frontier. And it is torque you want for pulling and hauling big loads. I am sure like Toyota that Nissan sells mostly diesels outside the USA.
Not only that, but that torque is quite low in RPM's, being right in the area of about 95% of everyday use. I think this too is where a diesel saves so much fuel. All these vehicles we have been talking about, the MB350, VW T, VW TDI, MB GLK250, E350 etc etc. all of them have peak torque available in stop and go from barely off idle..from about 1600 to 2000 rpm. And most common avg speed we do is 80 to 65 mph. So in both common types of useage, rpms are right there in the meat. Unlike any NA gasser, their peak torque is often so high in rpm that you rarely ever are in that range (Japanese especially, are often near or above 4000 rpm!) unless you have deliberately stuffed your foot into it to merge etc. And that too is when the gassers REALLY suck fuel and leave so many customers scratching their heads, saying.."I thought this thing was supposed to get x mpg?"
And I did say average, so unless you drive for hours on end at 75+ then only then will you be barely higher in rpm anyway..probably under 2300 rpm with most of these 7 and 8 speeds. Even so, I'll bet fintail's E Class revs only about 2100 at 80 mph..just a guess but I bet I'm not too far off.. actually, that engine has so much torque and with the E class being a lot lighter than the ML for example, it could be revving only 1850 or so at 80..
Indeed across the three VW turbo diesels (1.9 L, 2.0 L, 3.0 L ) with redline @ 5,100 rpm, going past 3,000 rpm does not yield much (more), in terms of torque. Full rated HP however is designed to be delivered @ app 4,000 rpm (if I recall correctly. I don't monitor this much as it is relatively and real world use less) . 2,200 rpm (45% of redline) is really optimum for all systems. (turbo, full torque, fuel economy, cooling, optimum heat operating temperature, transfer, etc., etc.)
Now I like to take the (3) engines routinely to slightly above 75% of redline as diesels actually benefit from slightly to aggressive operation. The engine actually gets that work out when I am coming out of the mountains (7,385 ft and below). Additional benefits are the no fuel draw condition, which contributes to that computer 39 mpg reading. :shades: Using (sequential shift 8 speed A/T) gears, I can use gears, torque, engine braking to get safer following distances. When I want to, I have full torque pull out into the next transition. The exponentially less use of brakes ARE another spin off. The transmission (8 speed A/T) is almost elegantly cooled (albeit opaquely), with a 2 or three stage heat dissipation/transfer system. The DSG is sort of like the (little bro). 5/6 speed M/T are a hoot !
Yes...I wasn't sure what the 1.9 etc ran at when cruising 80+, but even those two are relatively low rpm's I think because they are so torquey, yet still a light car. It just wasn't that many years ago we had gasser minivans going down the road with far less torque than either of your Golf or Jetta..
You could be right on that. I don't think any they had were base models. The sales person said the same thing you did. The ML is their E level and the GLK is their C level vehicles. Even with the standard P1 including sun roof, Edmunds shows a TMV under $40k. For us buying the GLK makes more sense than the ML at this time. It is more of a day to day vehicle. I could keep the Sequoia for those longer trips. And wring out the GLK over the shorter trips under 500 miles. Who knows we may get where that would be all the vehicle we need. If I bought the ML and sold the Sequoia, then found out it was not as nice cruising cross country, I would feel kind of stupid for giving up comfort for a few bucks in fuel.
I hit the incorrect mpg on screen calculator using the steering wheel scroll buttons and decided to see the multiple screens and results. After review, then finally was able to get back to the "mpg since refuel" screen: as that is the normal screen I use (don't do this in the real world if one is prone to freaking) . As you had probably calculated the avg mpg that I had been getting,.... It turns out my mpg calculator (from start and others) showed you to be almost dead bang ON with a figure of 31.6 mpg - 31.7 mpg !!! Call it 32 mpg for 27,000 miles for you CPA types?
On the SOS DD TMI subject, this tank took 23 gals for 720 miles. This tank included the earlier described R/T of 450+ miles in that awful mountain traffic jam and going back and forth to SFO in another SLOUGH, etc, etc.
Besides the Salesman thinks he has a buyer and will find what I want. Has to be White and Almond/Mocha MBTex. Under $40k plus TTL. Plus a Trailer hitch. I just don't buy anything without a trailer hitch. Never know when I will need to get out of town quick. :shades:
I've never seen a Becker nav unit. I like the MB unit though, as the image is very sharp. I didn't register mbrace on my car - they wanted a credit card on file, I said no thanks. I don't need concierge services or to manage my car from my phone anyway.
I wanted almond tex, but couldn't find a car with it. I was already pushing my luck finding a Bluetec with pano and P2, probably under 10% of production. That diesel would probably be good for lower weight towing.
Looking at AutoTrader, there are a few under $40k GLK250s floating around. That means no add-ons. My guess is MB wants to flood that market. They have started shipping them by the boat load. The market in the EU is in the toilet. Send them to the USA and let the dealers take the loss. I don't think MB dealers make the profit they did before the recession. Selling below invoice is new to MB dealers. I think they are currently selling what Americans need in diesels. As well as VW. The Japanese and Koreans seem to think a small car getting high 30s is adequate. Not for long.
Macan/Tiger?
There is not doubt in my mind that app -Minus 900#'s will not only post better mpg in a 3.0 L TDI, but have better handling and acceleration and probably braking.