What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

I do not doubt that, but realistically, I am still waiting for the 2004 Honda Civic, then Accord TDI. Now I know from reading it has long since hit the European and world wide markets.

Off topic, but diesel related. Today, I had a conversation with a guy I had a transaction with some years ago. He had bought a 2012 VW Golf TDI, 2 door, 6 speed M/T for his daily commute (29,040 miles per year). He had been posting 45 mpg to 54 mpg (54 to 56 miles one way). I am led to believe his commute is less grueling, as his routes are AGAINST congested traffic patterns. I know and have done most to all parts of his commute at one time or another so what he posts is not far fetched. He has maked his living as a MB diesel mechanic. So far no unscheduled maintenance and scheduled maintenance consists of oil change intervals and tire rotations. He did not really focus on the mpg, but said he LOVED the TORQUE.

ruking1

MB/Dodge Sprinter LIKE !?
VW Small Commercial Trucks

stever

A passenger Caddy could get me into the showroom. Liked the comment about just bringing back the Microbus.

qbrozen

I can't understand why they don't offer passenger versions of these vehicles. You can get a 2nd uncomfortable row in the transit connect, but that's it. Would it really be so tough to offer a 3-row option? The minivan choices on the new car market have slimmed down considerably with Chevy and Ford out of the game.

gagrice

Well I ended up in 20 miles of stop n go traffic on Interstate 5 yesterday. Drove 186 miles to the North side of Los Angeles. 3 hours 40 minutes with no stops. About 30 miles was slow n go. The rest was 75-80 MPH. All freeway driving. Computer says I got 28.4 MPG. If that ends up true when I get back home and fill it. I will be more than happy. The Touareg is very pleasant for driving long distances without a break to stretch the legs.

We plan to see the Reagan Library today with the grandkids. We will drive the Pacific Coast Highway on return trip. Lots of traffic lights but less stress than bumper to bumper 80 MPH driving. If you have to drive under these conditions. It is nice having a nice filtered air cabin that is quiet.

ruking1

I don't know why I thought of this with your reference to freeway and long distance driving, but I have yet to use and know if the cruise control works. I better get right on it before the warranty is up.

Happy Trails !! I hope the rest of your trip is enjoyable. For those that love the (American) open roads, the Pacific Coast Highway (PCH) has to be on one's "bucket list". When you are doing the "parade" portion" of the PCH, I hope it is one of those GORGEOUS days, so you can peel back your sunroof !

gagrice

No possible way I could safely use cruise on that drive yesterday. One second you are going 80 with the flow and next all are slowing to 20 or less. Just a crazy way to live IMO. Our last trip up here it was smooth sailing on a Saturday morning. Sunday is a zoo in both directions. The PCH is much more pleasant for sure. Takes a bit longer. But more to see and do.

tifighter

Our Zurich office has two of these, a 2 row Bluemotion and a 3 row Caddy Life. The Life is pretty big and feels like a 7/8 scale Multivan. I usually drive the smaller one and it is nice to drive, seats 5 adults though its more comfortable for 4. Its slow, but speeding is a big no-no in CH anyhow, so its not a big deal. Everyone in that office thinks the company Mazda5 is the fun one, anyhow.

The Caddy roof is mighty high for boats, though, Steve...

stever

That is an issue. Just have to switch to "creek" boats and stick 'em inside. :-)

ruking1

..."Of course, looking at the problems Putin has at home, his energies might be better focused elsewhere. He is ostentatious and likes attention, which is to be expected. Kind of dumb, like either party pointing at the other, when both are pretty rotten and aimless.

No doubt a conflict would inflate prices, but I have a hunch that per passenger vehicle, there is more fuel supply for diesel than gasoline. So, you'll pay more but at least you'll be able to get it.

It is amusing that supplies remain high while prices creep up. Supply and demand, huh."...

Ah, ... no !

In Putin's case, according to David Satter's (opinion) article:
"Russia's Anti-American Foreign Policy", PG. A17, Monday Sep 23,2013 WSJ,

he needs... "high oil prices and a distraction from his domestic troubles. "...

So why WE pursue high (domestic) oil prices and defacto high (domestic) FUEL prices in keeping with anti American policies detailed in the above article is confusing @ best and @ worst ANTI American.

While I (and probably YOU) can't control the price of oil, let alone the HIGH prices of fuels @ the pumps (domestically), in our small ways we are able to chose the cost per mile driven? aka use of 30% better mpg diesel fuel?

fintail

I chose diesel because I like the tech just as much as any efficiency gain - and I finally decided that driving a tuned V8 car in the obscene traffic conditions here is just dumb.

And Putin has no place pointing a finger at anyone. Closet full of skeletons there, for himself and his country.

ruking1

As good as any number and combination of reasons ! I also have multiple reasons. Be that as it may, I think the market/s would also benefit from a (to several) V8 TDI/'s aimed more at the light truck (1/2 ton) and large to mid sized cars segments. The macro/greater reason here is those cumulative segments are likely to remain the majority (75%) of the passenger vehicle fleet. So that I am not vague, 375 to 550 # ft (the RANGE is actually pretty massive)

I am sure the mink and manure set and those that need to tow 30,000 #'s appreciate the V8 stump pulling TDI's choices. But I am guessing you and I do not and/or have that need.

..."And Putin has no place pointing a finger at anyone. Closet full of skeletons there, for himself and his country."...

He and Russia want to restore its' former glories and beyond from its CRUSHING diminishment's. Tom Hanks and Julia Roberts (not two I would label as FLAMING repubs) starred in a movie: " Charlie Wilson's War" (true story I am led to believe), where a DEMOCRATIC Congressmen almost single handedly jugged the purse strings that led to Russia's defeat in Afghanistan !!!!! Why the current (democratic) administration chose to put him and Russia both on the world's center stage and given prime world statesmen time is certainly not in my pay grade.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472062/

fintail

I agree with that - a midsize powerful diesel for truck and SUV application would be a boon. Piles of fuel expenses would be saved. The 6cyl gas BMW I rented would probably get 50% better mileage with the diesel, and perform better, too.

I have no plans to tow, but I do like torque.

houdini1

People who are visiting someone probably drive down late Friday and drive back on Sunday, leaving Saturday to have less traffic.

[Deleted User]

Yeah...that is GREAT mpg for an SUV. In comparison my old Grand Cherokee V8 gasser, being of similar size and weight to the Touareg, would get 18 to 18.5 max, but this was a 10 year old WJ model. It is also worth noting that the Touareg 3.0 has more horsepower than my old 4.7 V8...and 100 lb ft more torque. In just 10 years, diesels have come a long way.

I have to admit that the seating position in my car has me dying to get out and stretch after 200 miles, and I don't remember my SUV ever making me feel that way.

It's a moot point though, as the Jeep was out of gas in 250 so I had to stop anyway!!!

gagrice

After running around all day today going to the Reagan Library, I am at 223 miles on this tank. It is just below 3/4 mark. Won't bother filling till later in the week after I get back to San Diego. 650-700 miles should be very easy with 26 gallon tank.

dave8697

28.2 mpg is what you can have today. The 17.5% higher price for diesel times the 24 mpg of a 285 HP gasser.

6 speed. 8 speed. Next up is ten speed.

11.5 yrs ago I interviewed for a job designing cylinder deactivation and now it's standard on all GM trucks. My carbed 2.8L Camaro with a 5 spd manual got 31 on trips and 25-26 average. The new 285 HP GM V6 turns into a 2.8L V4 that gets 24 hwy in an ext cab Silverado. They will never get to the 31 mpg of that Camaro since they have already downsized the engine to that level and the vehicle is so much bigger and can tow 2 1/2 of those Camaros. Somewhere between 24 and 30 is the end of the road. Maybe the 26 mpg Ram is close to the limit with the 8 speed. Will 10 speeds get 300 HP ext cab trucks to 27 mpg?

gagrice

Too many maybes with any gasser. The Silverado is getting 14-15 MPG with the V6. All hype from GM. Been there too many times to believe the lies. Besides I want an SUV that gets 30+ MPG on the highway. If I was worried about the upfront premium for the diesel, I would not have bought anything. I had a perfectly good Sequoia V8 gasser that got 14-15 MPG. GM lost me with a POC 2005 GMC Sierra Hybrid. You like GM buy them. I hope their cylinder deactivation works better than Cadillac and Honda. Why not just build an engine using diesel that gets better mileage without all the extra stuff to go bad? GM ruined diesel and cylinder deactivation for every other car maker. After only 1600 miles with the diesel Touareg you would have a near impossible time convincing me any gas engine was in the same league. If you were to spend a day driving one you would tell GM what to do with their junk.

GM paved the way_and lost its way_with innovative V8-6-4
Unfortunately, cylinder deactivation still carries a bit of stigma among some older drivers with long memories, and it stems from General Motors. At the time of the second national fuel crisis, in 1979, GM decided to manufacture an engine dubbed the V8-6-4. As its name suggests, this was essentially a V-8 engine, like many others in the GM lineup. Part of the time, though, either 2 or 4 of its cylinders could shut down, leaving either 4 or 6 in operation.

Trouble brewing with V8-6-4
In practice, some nasty problems developed. Expanded self-diagnostics displayed 45 separate function codes that could assist a mechanic with investigation into any trouble that developed. And they did. The V8-6-4 engine was undeniably imaginative, but also complex. Computer control was a new concept, slow to react and not yet sufficiently developed to handle a task of this nature with suitable reliability. Instead, the modular displacement burdened many owners with incessant troubles, many of which were related to the somewhat primitive fuel-injection system. Rather than cut off fuel to the unused cylinders, the engine's injectors continued to keep them supplied, causing gasoline to accumulate.

stever

"The reaction to the 2014 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel pickup truck has been so enthusiastic that Chrysler is starting to wonder if it will be able to fill demand.

Dealers will start taking orders for the Ram EcoDiesel at the end of the year.

"We are capped on how many we can build," Ram's Dave Sowers told Edmunds. "We estimated very conservatively somewhere around a 10-to-15 percent take-rate to start with. We would potentially be limited by our suppliers' ability to deliver engines and transmissions in significantly greater numbers."

Reaction to 2014 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel Is Unprecedented, Chrysler Says

ruking1

Well, HOT DOG ! Can we call it or what !! ?? So if Chrysler (Dodge) sells 29,000 to 30,000 TDI units (app 15%) first year, they should be happy as clams !! ?? Do you want fries with that?

I think the other (non diesel) beauty here is that (factory orders) PU trucks (across the big three) are semi to ALMOST semi customizable. It would remain to be seen the parameters Dodge will set.

The real 20/20 hindsight head scratcher here is that the big three has been making (3/4 ton) US market "light truck" diesels for multiple decades. So even with almost massive UNION ownership, short sightedness STILL in charge (RULES THE ROOST) !! ?? WOW ! What a surprise ! ?

Be that as it may, IF Dodge can pull off a seamless first year TDI opening, one year hence, it will make FORD/GM "late to the party" in the LT (1/2 ton) diesel market.

stever

Hm, wonder if the UAW is planting stories like that to bug Fiat and pump up the IPO price?

(Don't you just love conspiracy theories? ).

gagrice

Chrysler should have thought about the engine manufacturer before they started their marketing campaign. The ZF 8 speed transmission will be in most new Ram 1500 PUs from what I read. It will be the auto for all Jeep Grand Cherokees as well.

VM Motori has said all along their ability to produce engines was very limited. Will Ram and Jeep be fighting over who gets them? How many sales will Jeep lose to Mercedes, BMW, Audi and VW if they cannot deliver the JGC diesel? It seems to be an American business trait to announce new products then wait and see who is interested. Then delay after delay which will turn a lot of customers off. Me included.

gagrice

I think there are real issues with capacity:

Q: How many engines does VM Motori produce a year?

A: This year, because of the Grand Cherokee in NAFTA, we will be around 86,000. Last year, we did 55,000. We are investing more than 80 million euro [$104 million] to increase our production capacity. We are increasing our manufacturing capacity very much, but everything will be built in Italy.
How much room do you have in your factory in Italy to meet future demand for products in North America?

We have real estate where we can increase our capacity. The plan right now is to get up to 90,000 V-6 engines this year, but we can increase up to 50 percent more in less than two years.

No mention of the Ram diesel. The JGC diesel is a big seller in the EU for the last two years. And we have not seen any GC diesels at dealers here. So if they are building 86,000 for the EU market and expanding to 90K. Does not sound good for the US buyers.

ruking1

I don't have access to the article I read in passing, but as I recall, each (VMI) TDI engine is put on a test stand and certified before being packaged for shipment. So at some (past) point, management thought it VERY important to do an individualized certification, not to mention the time, money and resources to perform. Expansion plans call for RANDOM testing, which can have an adverse affect downstream.

So for example VW still does 100% test stand certification for the TDI's. I do understand that TDI engines come from Germany and other locations. So for example the 3.0 L TDI is said to come from Hungary.

stever

When you see video of car factories, they do that to all engines.

Not on a stand exactly, but they hook a big "drill" to the crankshaft and spin it. That should weed out the funky pistons at least, eh?

ruking1

LOL ! No ! The test station/s is/are multiple point computer operations and parameters testing procedures. While you can not see nor do they detail the data kept, the statistics and statistical controls are pretty sophisticated, from what I am led to believe. So basically almost EVERYTHING starts out from the ideal statistical RANGE: further it is documented for long term uses.

How I know this: one of the GTG guru's flies commercial cargo planes in and out of Germany. He is well known in (unofficial) diesel circles, so has taken many factory tours (while in Germany) , where discussions like these don't glaze most folks' eyes over.

So defacto and I don't know if folks understand the implications of this, but if you don't test, document and track each one, you are really flying blind if you only randomly test for manufacturing/assembly protocols, as opposed to 100%, where the data can be used downstream in multiple applications. Now this is not to imply they can not or will not put out an excellent product.

stever

Makes sense. You always hear about recalls affecting a narrow range of VINs, and it turns out that the manufacturer has tracked the problem to a supplier issue and one bin of bad parts.

ruking1

Yes ! Indeed that is one downstream application/use. It really saves a lot of a lot. (if you know what I mean)

I hope this is not TMI. Because of the want/ need of rapid increase in the production facilities and more importantly units produced, the so called "RANDOM" testing (actually probably NOT so random) can be used as so called "book marks". So now if something goes south, you almost can isolate the issue between the book marks, while allowing for faster completion times per unit.

gagrice

According to the readout I was at 27.7 MPG at the end of our Trip to Simi Valley. I just filled and calculated at 25.22 MPG. This Chevron pump let me fill to the top. The last Shell pump cut off on the first shut off and would not pump anymore. So last tank may not have been as full. That was 430 miles with at least 50 stop n go or slow n go traffic. The home run down the 405 and 5 was smooth sailing. 120 miles never under 70 MPH. And the readout for that segment said 30.4 MPG. Just passed 1500 miles on the Odo. Here is the most expensive gas and diesel of the trip. Right in Simi Valley.

ruking1

It still seems to be holding true, that it is more expensive @ home than in a resort town: RUG $3.79, PUG $3.99, ULSD $3.99. I am sure glad the range of the VW Touareg TDI lets me fuel there ! Corner store prices are @ RUG $3.97, PUG $4.19, ULSD $4.19.

nyccarguy

I haven't driven my Prelude in a couple of weeks & due to certain circumstances must drive it to work tomorrow. The entire front license plate & bracket fell off of the BMW. Now I have to get new plates for it immediately according to the Stamford Police because I can now get pulled over for driving a car with stolen plates. Since the DMV in CT doesn't open until 9:15 AM (Thursday) & I have to be at work at 7:30 AM (in The Bronx), this is somewhat of a conflict for me. Hopped I. The Prelude tonight, fired it up, & I need gas. Got 23 mpg on my last tank. What does this have to do with diesel?

Shell
RUG 87 - $3.859/gal
PUG 93 - $4.199/gal
DIESEL - $4.259/gal

ruking1

I was sorry to hear about the lost license plate and front frame !! What a PITA !

That would be $.1678 per mile driven (RUG, I presume) . Our (09 Jetta TDI, DSG) last fill was 42 mpg or (using your ULSD prices) $ .10143 per mile driven, or $ .0664 more for 65.4% more than diesel. ( 6 speed manual would have gotten better than DSG mpg)

The 03 Jetta TDI 5 speed manual would have gotten between 48-52, for $.0852 per mile driven (call it 50 mpg) or 96.5% more (than diesel). Given 186,000 miles, that would be $ 15,364.00 MORE. Just on fuel savings alone, I am glad I over paid ($236 dollars more) for the diesel option.

I presume your BMW uses PUG? What would be its cost per mile driven FUEL?

nyccarguy

My Prelude actually takes PUG (93 here on the east coast). Remember, it's body style dates back to 1997 & engine back to 1993 when gas was cheap. It's only a 5 speed manual & wasn't geared for optimal fuel economy. In 5th gear @ 80 mph it turns 4K RPM. According to fuelly my cost per mile driven in the Prelude is $.18.

My BMW does use PUG & yes I do fill it with PUG EVERY time. Unlike some people who wear their BMWs & put RUG (87) or "mid-grade" (89). According to my fuelly dash board (cool site btw, thank-you for turning me on to it ruking), my average MPG is 20.8. It costs me $.199 per mile to drive.

I've said before, I put gassers & diesels on my short list for my next car. The lease is up on my BMW in less than a year.

All 2014s, all automatics (or DSG)
Honda Accord Sport
Honda Accord EX
VW Jetta TDI Premium
VW Golf TDI
VW Passat TDI SE w/ sunroof
VW Jetta GLI
VW GTI

Given the miles per year I drive (20K plus), fuel economy is a factor (mpg & cost per mile), but it isn't at the top of my list by any means. I've got to drive all the cars and get a feel for them first, then I can start eliminating.

ruking1

If your corrections to my posts are a call for my corrections, fair enough ! Predictably the figures would be even BETTER upon corrections!! Or they would be "worse," as the case may be ! I am glad you are a good sport about it. It is done for three reasons: 1. to get folks who think one way or 2. the other) or 3. already there to run the numbers (real world or otherwise) and then do what they need to do. I just happened to use yours (PUG/RUG) /my real life figures (ULSD).

Yes, I scratch my head on the situation where someone buys a PUG recommended to required vehicle and insists on using RUG ! ?

gagrice

I found this time there is no substitute for taking plenty of test drives. I have not done that in the past and have been unhappy as a result. I ended up with a vehicle I had no intentions on buying. The two long test drives of the Touareg TDI convinced me. When I bought the 2007 Sequoia the options were limited in CA on diesel SUVs to used Mercedes or a VW Touareg V10 TDI. Only one used GL320 CDI was available in SD. I test drove it and did not like the 7 speed transmission. And I did not like the $72k firm price tag either. I paid $30k less for the Sequoia and overall it was a good choice. I spent $6998 in gas over the 6 years. It is now in a happy family that love it and I am Happy, Happy, Happy.... So test drive them all. I still think if you want AWD you should at least test drive the GLK250 Bluetec. I don't see any CUV matching it. I know I really like the GLK. If it was the size of the ML or Touareg I may have picked it for the increased mileage.

ruking1

..."I don't see any CUV matching it. I know I really like the GLK. If it was the size of the ML or Touareg I may have picked it for the increased mileage."...

I have been and remain impressed with the GLK 250 BlueTec. (diesel portion most decidedly) I think if I look at it more ultra critically it actually fits what I have and want it to do a bit more glove-like, albeit @ a higher price than the VW T TDI. Truly it is WELL engineered ! Then again I STILL like the ML 350 BlueTec.

However having lived 36k miles in the VW T TDI, I am not unhappy in the least in the comparison. Even if the VWT TDI is app 900 #'s heavier.

nyccarguy

I continue to be impressed with the "real world" cost per mile figures & mpg figures I see on fuelly & posted by others here. You also get the thumbs up for enthusiasm;)

nyccarguy

Agreed that numerous test drives will be the key for me. I'm very particular about the way cars drive.

I think if I want diesel & AWD/4WD it will be out of the question given my price constraints. Maybe only used or if I could find one off swap a lease or lease trader with an average residual. Or something like a leftover demo/ex service loaner.

ruking1

Yes I think anymore one can get a one sized fits most to as a very specific vehicle to get real close to ones' needs and wants. To me, the issue is whether the appropriate diesel engine and transmission makes sense.

So to me, it makes very little sense to keep the BMW or even get another car (diesel for example) when you have the Honda Prelude. (paid for, no monthly payments are powerful motivators)

But then, if you have the same situation in a diesel, (03 Jetta TDI in my case) the fuel savings are actually quite startling ($15.4 k plus for 186,000 miles) !!! So if I were to be getting a car just for a 20k per year commute and make due for other than yearly "incidental mileage" above that, I would get a 2 door GOLF TDI. (per Golf TDI commute owner (not me)) 45 to 52 aint bad

scwmcan

I'd check out the Mazda 6 as well ( including the diesel if it gets here), it is as fast as the four cyl Accord and gets comparable milage, and isn't a CVT. ( which may not be a big deal as long as you don't mind the feel of a CVT)
In any case have fun testing them all.

houdini1

Someone on the Frequent Car Buyers Anonymous board just posted that CU tested the regular 4 cyl Accord (non hybrid) at a steady 55 mph and got 49 mpg.

With that in mind I don't think I would spring for the extra few thousand bucks for the hybrid.

stever

I didn't understand the "Jordan" reference but I've been a Danes fan since "My So-Called Life."

2014 Audi A6 TDI Commercial Starring Claire Danes Goes Viral (youtube.com)

gagrice

That is great. The fact that most diesels have a range of about 700+ miles is a big deal to me. Mercedes did a commercial several years ago with a guy driving 800 miles before stopping to fill up in an E320 CDI.

fintail

Several years ago on 'Top Gear', Clarkson drove an A8 diesel from Lodnon-Edinburgh and back on one tank, 800 or more miles.

gagrice

Will Audi put VW diesels on the USA map? They know how to make great ads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amBTr9kcJes

ohenryx

On my morning commute today, I saw an example of the bad side of diesels. The kind of thing that will continue to give people a bad impression. There was a real jerk, cutting people off, passing on the wrong side, doing everything you hate about jerks behind the wheel. And he was in a Jetta TDI, which had obviously been “chipped”. Everytime he floored it, which was quite often, it was blowing out a tremendous amount of ugly black smoke. Hell, he sat at the red light, reving and overreving the engine blowing out huge clouds of black smoke, for absolutely no reason.

And you know full well, other people were watching this, saying to themselves and each other, “That’s why I would never own a diesel!”

Don’t you just hate people like that?

gagrice

He must have used old farm diesel or something from long ago. No way you can get black soot from ULSD. My Kubota tractor does not have any smog controls and it will not blow black smoke unless I buy dyed farm diesel which has higher sulfur content.

ohenryx

This was the first time I have seen it on a VW TDI, but it is quite common in this part of the world on the big 3/4 and 1 ton diesel pickups. You buy a chip or a tuner which reprograms the engine control computer. You get something like 100 more horsepower, but when you floor it there is a tremendous amount of black smoke. Truly annoying to the poor slob behind you.

gagrice

I am sure it is annoying. Here the only trucks blowing black smoke are up from Mexico burning Mexico diesel. We have a lot of the modified PU trucks. with the stacks coming out of the PU bed. No smoke though when they get on it. Maybe you are not getting ULSD where your at. Or they are mixing it with Kerosene for winter mix. CA is very strict. In fact with the new CA diesel smog checks if they see any soot you don't pass.

nyccarguy

If I'm going to go Japanese, gasser, pedestrian, then I'm going to stick with what I know (150K on the Prelude 43K plus in her Pilot). Besides, I don't feel like paying for the pleasure of being Mazda's rolling lab rat for the diesel.