What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

I think a 40-42 mpg CUV really blows the covers off the "fuel sucking SUV LIES" that have been told and mantra'd for literally 30 years PLUS. The keeping out of other European fuel sipping models are another confirmation.

The latest NHTSA safety figures which post the SAFEST statistics in literal recorded history exposes the lies about the PU/SUV segment being "mass killers" etc. Indeed the vehicle fleet population has ALWAYS been closer to 75%+ larger cars and 25% smaller cars. The real lies perpetrated in the push to smaller cars, show smaller cars being the more dangerous !!!

Steve Elias

gagrice, maybe i should re-read your posting where you told us what you thought of the X5 diesel. or maybe you have additional thoughts in hindsight about the X5. i seem to like everything i know about them except about the cracking blocks/heads/manifolds in extreme cold weather, or some issue they have like that. the diesel SUV i like better is the Cayenne of course. I may have to put a deposit down on one, unless I go for the stickshift gasser Cayenne. :}
(in my dreams, either one, i suppose, but the future is uncertain...)

Steve Elias

now that was funny!

gagrice

I enjoyed my test drive in the X5 diesel. It handled very well, had gobs of power. I was not thrilled with the seats that seemed hard by luxury standards. The rear seat was a bit crowded with the drivers seat back where I like it. I think if driven modestly it is capable of 30 MPG on the highway.

My only test drive of the ML320 CDI was a 2007 model. Very comfortable ride. Good handling though not up to the X5. The MB transmission would downshift radically when you let off the accelerator. I like to coast more when I let off the fuel feed. I like driving a performance vehicle a lot. I like getting good mileage even more. Given a rocket like the X5 diesel I would probably get speeding tickets. Way more power than needed for my average driving needs.

PS
I really like the looks of the Touareg better than the Cayenne. Though I would bet the Porsche is a great driving SUV.

rockylee

The new Chevy Cruze Diesel will be out early next year as a 2014 model and if I can get a great lease on a LTZ, I'll be a buyer! :shades:

-Rocky

gagrice

Rocky,
Congrats again on your new job. It will be good if GM offers a diesel to get in on the competition.

KCRam

Chrysler and Cummins have upped the ante with the 2013 Cummins-powered Ram 3500 that will be introduced this winter.

The 2013 6.7L Cummins ISBe, as available only in the 3500 pickup with an extreme-duty Aisin AS69RC 6-speed-automatic, is rated at 385 hp @ 2800 rpm - just slightly behind the competition, but produces a house-yanking 850 lb-ft at 1600 rpm... 50 better than Ford, 85 better than GM.

That's 142 lb-ft per cylinder... more than many economy car engines in total.

Just for comparison...
- my 1996 Ram 3500 Club Cab 4x4 dually: 5.9L Cummins 12-valve mechanical-injection was rated at 180/420
- my (current) 2005 Ram 3500 Quad Cab 4x4 dually: 5.9L Cummins common-rail EFI is rated at 325/610

So should I opt for this new powertrain, I will have more than doubled both hp and torque from my 96, and had increases of 18% (hp) and 39% (torque) from my 05.

My best tank in the 1996 was 24.3 mpg (3.54 axle), and my best in the 2005 is 21.5 (3.73). The new Ram offers a 3.42, which combined with the use of DEF and a new front-axle disconnect system on 4x4s could get me close to 24 again.

Expect a response from Ford and GM in their 2014 models.

kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host

gagrice

Really sad none of the domestics can put a 350 ft-lb torque 4 banger diesel into a 1/2 ton PU for the masses to get 30 plus MPG.

rockylee

Thanks, Gagrice! Yeah, I read they are thinking about putting the diesel as an option in the Malibu, in the future which would give it 40+ MPG's

Agree with you on the diesel 4 banger in pick-up application.....

-Rocky

KCRam

Chrysler is reportedly evaluating the VM 3.0L V6 that will go into the Grand Cherokee next year for the Ram 1500. With the ZF 8-speed, that would do very well mpg-wise... if the Pentastar/8-speed can get 25 mpg highway, a diesel should have no trouble reaching 30+.

kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host

gagrice

I really like the looks of the Grand Cherokee. I have talked to at least 6 owners that love their GCs. I just don't think I am ready to trust an Italian diesel after what Chrysler did with the last Italian diesel entry. If it was a Cummins or Mercedes I would be all over it.

scwmcan

I would definately wait to see how the GC diesel works in the first year, but I suspect there will be fewer issues as Fiat has a lot more experience with Diesels than Chysler ever did ( and apparently they make some of the best diesels in Europe) so hopefully they will be able to make things work properly, but of course only time will tell.

stever

It'll be interesting to compare 3500 sales numbers in a year or two.

"Buyers of the 3500 line, previously limited to diesel engines only, will be given a choice in 2013 of returning to a gas-fueled 5.7-liter Hemi V-8. Gasoline engines will be popular for snowplow use and will reduce the price of a 3500 pickup by almost $10,000.

"When we told dealers we were putting gas engines in the 3500, it got wild applause," Diaz said about a recent briefing of dealers nationwide."

Heavy-duty Ram truck line going commercial (Detroit News)

gagrice

I believe much of the problem with the VM engine in the Liberty was emissions equipment that was just slapped on to meet EPA regs. Any engine today has to be designed from the block up for emissions. That is why we should come to some standards with Europe rather than allow every state and country make willy nilly emissions laws. It adds a tremendous cost to the consumer and in the case of the Liberty diesel, many headaches that EU owners never experienced.

stever

I think the Liberty CRD was built to 2005 Euro 4 emissions standards. VM Motori is building diesels now that meet Euro 6 standards which go into effect in 2015. Including one for the JGC in 2013.

KCRam

The Hemi was only dismissed for a few years in the 3500 (was last offered for MY2008) - it was dropped for the same reason as the gasoline V10 (very low take rate), but with the front suspension improvements, Chrysler needed to make it available again, as the 3500 is no longer at max front GAWR with most plows. The lighter Hemi is also helped by better gear selection with the 66RFE - a regular cab 3500 4x4 Hemi would make a very capable plow rig.

kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host

KCRam

What will also help VM's cause in the North American market will be its use in the new Ram vans. Chrysler has trademarked the names "Ram ProMaster" and "Ram ProMaster City", for the Fiat Ducato and Doblo respectively. The Ducato/ProMaster would likely offer the same 3.0L V6 as the JGC and would make Ram customers more comfortable. I think these vans will do well against the new Ford Transit and redesigned Transit Connect.

One would imagine if Chrysler decides to bring the Iveco Daily here as well (to compete against the Ford Transit T350), it would be the "Ram ProMaster HD".

kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host

stever

Ram ProMaster HD

I had one of those in a homebuilt computer back in '94.

cdnpinhead

I'm pining for any one of the cars available in Europe that can't be had in North America.

I've spent the past two days or so driving a C class Mercedes with a 2 litre diesel, and it's been wonderful. Much like the Audis I rented here eleven years ago or the Peugeots I rented in England 5-6 years ago, I got excellent acceleration and very good economy. I tacked a couple of days of personal time onto a 2-week business trip and drove across six of my favourite Swiss passes yesterday, then back through the Black Forest today. I started with a nice drive down from Liege (Belgium) past Spa Francorchamps and on to Switzerland Friday afternoon.

Back in 2001 I did this for the first time and was ready to buy one of these cars immediately upon my return to the States. None were available then (Audi, BMW) and, barring VW, none are available now. A decade plus later, and vehicles that routinely get 42 mpg and deliver much driving pleasure still can't be bought in the U.S. I don't need to wave my **ck in the air, so don't want anything bigger than a 2.0 or 2.5 litre diesel, but I do require a manual transmission.

I even got used to the shutdown "feature" when stopped. The best fuel mileage I achieved, over a full day, was 4.8 litres/100 km. I'll figure out the conversion when I get back to the States, but I think it's pretty good.

Thanks so much, CARB.

ruking1

I do not think there can be any doubt that there are, have been and will remain diesel consumers/markets wanting and needing trucks like these (GM/Chysler/Ford), built to suit. Indeed to my mind I am hard pressed to name any serious European or Japanese competitors. I actually know of others (foreign and domestic), but it is a long way of saying: special (purpose) market niches.

I think articles like this are almost OEM code words for not again this year, a diesel engine for any not wanting or needing stump pulling power/torque. :sick:

gagrice

Thanks so much, CARB.

I have been cussing CARB for over a decade, with their lying, diesel hating, wannabe PHD leader. How one person can be allowed to waste so much fossil fuel and go unpunished is a mystery. I say thanks to all the ECO NUTS in CA that elect our worthless legislature.

bpeebles

I am not sure if the other followers of this thread follow truck-pulling. For many years, the GM products tend to rule... why? - not necessarily the torque... but that world-class Alison transmission simply does not break.

Truck pulling example

This new Cummins engine may have more torque... but lets see it hooked up to the sled and see what she will do.

Although there are many pulling 'classes'. The "road registered" classes tend to show you who REALLY makes the toughest trucks. As I said above, the GM with their Allision xmission are hard to beat. These trucks commute all week back and forth to work and still can outpull the other guys trucks when hooked to the sled.

Most of the "open" classes where the pullers are allowed to spend any amount they wish opt to use the Allison xmission because it can actually SHIFT GEARS while 1500Hp are passing thru it.

Steve Elias

thanks gagrice... any plans to test-drive the porsche cayenne diesel !?

gagrice

I don't really like to bother dealers unless I am serious about a vehicle. I doubt that I would get fired up over the Cayenne. Though I am sure it would be a lot of fun to drive. Maybe a Carrera if my wife said it was ok to have a mid life crisis. Of the diesels offered by VW/Audi/Porsche I like the Touareg best.

ruking1

According to another web site that clearly lists inventory (for pre determined options, miles within ones zip code to include the USA) shows:

224 (all), 2013 Porsche diesels. Prices range from $ 60.4 k to 94.1 k.

787 (all), 2013 VW Touareg TDI's . Prices range from $ 45.7 to 61.5 k.

gagrice

So Porsche takes off about where Touareg tops out. Looking at the list of options on the Cayenne gave me a headache. I would want them all and that would probably make the Cayenne about $150k. I love ceramic disk brakes, but $8100 is a bunch. I think I will leave the Cayenne to folks with bottomless pockets.

PS
I think I would be happier with a top of the line Touareg, than a stripped Cayenne.

habitat1

The Touareg is clearly the price point leader of the VW/Audi/Porsche triumvirate, but in terms of driving dynamics, I suspect the Cayenne diesel is a few rungs up the ladder. The Touareg is quicker and felt like it handled somewhat better than the (considerably heavier) Q7, but both were well behind the base Cayenne and even the X5d we bought. Although I didn't get a chance to drive the Cayenne diesel (test drove the v6 Cayenne with manual transmission) I suspect my conclusion would be the same for the diesel. Porsche handling is just hard to beat.

On the other hand, having owned a 911 for 5.5 years, I would have a tough time stomaching Porsche's routine maintenance and repair costs for a vehicle we intend to keep 8-10+ years and 120-150k+ miles. The X5d handling is second only to Porsche, the vehicle is a little bigger and more functional for our needs, and BMW maintenance costs, even after their 4 year plan expires, are less egregious than Porsche for a high milage SUV application.

ruking1

For those that are into it, I am sure a comparison of part numbers, spring and shock rates will be the real arbiter. There are a lot of interchangeabilities built into the mix VW Touareg, Audi Q7, Porsche Cayenne TDI's, albeit in order of least to more expensive.

Me, i got lost at: do you want air shocks with this? No was the simple answer.

Just got back from the first 10,000 miles interval @ 11,111 miles. I was able to get a front row seat as the technician did the whole interval. We have 2 more included intervals. As far as complexity goes, it was an oil and oil filter change, tire rotation, 24 point inspection and Ad Blue topping.

habitat1

I'm not sure how many chassis interchangeables there can be when the Q7 TDI weighs 1,200 lbs more than a Cayenne V6 and 800 lbs more than a Cayenne Diesel? Of all of the SUV's we considered and test drove, those two were on the extreme bookends of weight, with everything else (X5d, ML350, MDX, etc.) coming in between them. So, at least from behind the steering wheel, they felt significantly different.

gagrice

Did the tech mention how much adblue you used for 11k miles?