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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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IF I was starting fresh, the 6 speed Passat TDI would be front and center, even as it is way too big and too much car.
EPA of 43 H, with unofficial but official 84 mpg, sets a VERY high bar. So the other question would be: can the VW hybrid offering beat 84 mpg.
Being as how I am not right now the one that really appeals to me is that hopped up GTD, which is not yet avaiable on the US markets. Baring that BWM needs to bring back that 425 # ft twin turbo diesel 3 series.
The usual; fuel is higher, purchase price is often higher too, can be hard to find in the boonies, mechanics can be even harder to find, high particulates, and my wife can't tolerate the fumes.
Remind me to look up Jetta TCO when they get all three of them out.
If we compared a gas to diesel in that segment, RPMs would also have to be taken into consideration. Those worthless little 4 cylinder gas engines have to scream to high RPMs and down shift to match the diesel performance. Then you are sucking gas like crazy with the DI gasser and it is likely Premium. Even big gas V8s do not come close to the torque of the V6 diesels until you get into the very expensive Turbo V8s. If you don't mind a $40k hit for a fire breathing V8 and the extra gas, the ML63 AMG is the one for you.
The ML V6 gas has 273 ft-lbs of torque, compared to 455 ft-lbs in the Diesel model. For an insignificant $1700 premium. If you are looking for the most bang for your buck, it is hard to beat a diesel model when offered.
I can guarantee failure for that one. For many reasons.
Didn't ruking1 just say only 9% of the gas fleet uses premium?
Gassers fell behind mostly because fuel was so cheap it didn't really matter until recently.
Nowadays, though, Volvo, Hyundai, Ford, Kia, Mazda, and GM all make DI gas turbos that run on regular fuel just fine.
I can guarantee failure for that one. For many reasons.
What if they wind up with a diesel hybrid?
RUG/PUG being 33% to 44 % more expensive than diesel.
Sidebar puts: corner store prices @ RUG 4.09 /PUG 4.29 /ULSD 4.35 (it should be obvious that diesel sells for more than RUG/PUG Of course it would be 4.25 if the fuel tax was the same as RUG/PUG. Funny how ULSD is taxed more for being CLEANER 30 ppm, nominally delivered @ the pumps @ 5 to 10 ppm than RUG/PUG 30 to 90 ppm sulfur)
VW 2009 TDI 39.6 mpg=.1098 cents CPMD / gasser 25.7=.159 cents CPMD/ T 29.4=.1459 cents CPMD
The other issue of interest are real world mpg figures diesel are 54% to 35% better THAN rug/pug.
VW pegs of late diesel yearly sales as app 20%. So one interpretation can be that of those considering VW's (aka RUG/PUG/ ULSD) 20% chose diesels, albeit given the three options. Another interesting note is that VW charges a slight to bigger premium for diesels.
A guestion might be how would that effect the percentages if their were no premium above the engine option that uses PUG ?
Not the one for me. For $8,000 less than the ML63, the BMW X5M has 40 more horsepower, handles twice as good and gets equally miserable gas mileage. Choice number two for me would be a Cayenne Turbo S, for a lot more money but with handling and driving dynamics that are on a different planet than the ML. AMG is very good at making muscle cars that go in a straight line.
Or...we could all just be patient and wait for a 376 hp, 550+ ft.lb X5M Diesel that gets better fuel economy than the average V6 gas SUV: http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/26/bmw-m-shows-off-new-diesel-powered-lineup-in-- - motion/
In the meantime, I'm happy having an lowly X5d that runs circles around our old MDX and gets better fuel economy than my TL. That will probably be the case until about 2022.
If they can keep the cost down to earth, I think that could be a hit.
They're known for diesels, so there is a positive association there.
Diesel+electric hybrid would beat any hybrid on the market for the MPG crown, and that would steal headlines.
Gas+electric would fail. When you're asked to name a fuel efficient gas powered car, does a VW come to mind? Now name 20...still not one VW on that list.
There's no association at all. It will not take the MPG crown, instead being a footnote on page 6 in the media.
While I hope stuff like this hits our markets, holding the breath is not the best option.
In other words, the gas benchmark is set low.
I think a shopper looking for an efficient car would consider the better gas engines, DI or DI-turbo, even. In those cases the advantages are far less than the 35-54% listed.
Ex: Mazda3 SkyActiv vs. Golf TDI. Real world mileage is virtually tied, TDI only very slightly ahead.
Depends on how you look at it, I suppose. I'd take a Gold TDI over a 2.slow or 2.5l, sure.
But I'd shop SkyActiv or Focus SFE vs. a TDI, not a gasser Golf. There the claimed 35-54% advantage diminishes greatly.
That would in no way shape or form encourage a diesel hybrid. Presumably they had made this decision and choice some years before.
Again you echo and reinforce my points.
Put another way, why doesn't SKYACTIV or Ford Focus SFE have TDI's?
(They probably do in other than US markets.)
I haven't seen a single ad for them, either.
A diesel hybrid would write its own headlines. :shades:
Agreed. An interesting comparison is BMW's former 335d vs. their current 328i. EPA ratings of 23/36 vs. 22/34. In that case, the diesel advantage is - at least on paper - much less than it is in the case of the X5d vs. X5 3.5i. Add to that, the fact that the 328i is less expensive, quicker off the line and the weight advantage of the turbo 4 is more noticeable in a sport sedan.
Sounds like I'm arguing against the 335d. Not really. Friend that has one actually gets 38-40+ mpg at 70-75 on the highway; 25+ in town. He doesn't need an engine on/off feature to get to those numbers and, once again, if he need to accelerate from 50-75, the 425 ft.lbs. of torque is ready and willing to accommodate. So, at least as far as he is concerned, in his 18 months of real world experience, he would not trade the 335d for the 328i. But it is a closer call than the VW comparison.
And I don't disagree, in that context.
But I also don't think that's how consumers shop.
They want a fuel efficient 5 door hatch. They compare the TDI to the SkyActiv and Focus SFE.
They would not even consider a 2.0T if fuel economy is the priority.
Mazda does have a SkyActiv-D, they call it, just not here yet.
Basically where we disagree is about what models get cross-shopped. My issue with your thinking is that VW would then only cannibalize itself, i.e. steal gasser sales for their TDIs.
That's working.
VW needs to bring new buyers to the brand, from the outside. To succeed at that, you have to also consider the better gassers as competition.
Yes, with strong emphasis on when offered! Basically, anything outside of the luxury market is extremely limited (as in VW only) when it comes to diesel offerings. When purchasing my Fiesta recently, there's no way I could justify purchasing a Jetta wagon at ~$10K additional cost just to obtain the extra space. Granted, I would like the extra space, but I can get along without it, and it wasn't $10,000 worth.
I don't think so. The hybrid advantage is pretty much limited to city driving and/or relatively short hops. A diesel hybrid on extended highway trips would get lower fuel efficiency than a straight diesel, correct? The electric motor would not be used at all and the added weight would be a drag to fuel efficiency.
The revolutionary answer is, IMO, all electric as in the Tesla Model S. Unfortunately, current battery technology and economics result in a $20k premium to go from 150 mile range to a 300 mile range. For me, a 450 mile range in a $60k Model S would be the answer to our sedan needs. Enough juice to get us to our home in PA and competitive with a 5 series in price. I'm on the deposit list, but thinking that I probably don't want to spend $50k for 150 mile range or $85k for the 300 mile performance edition. Even though the latter would give my old 911S a decent run for the money.
My guess is that if we all went to sleep for 100 years, we'd wake up with no fossil fuel cars to be found and a little nuclear cold fusion generator under our houses to supply nearly free electricity.
I think that might be one consequence of YOUR thinking. It is not mine.
VW has made no secret of its goal to profit and to be the number one car oem in the world. I think they realize they can not afford to be unprofitable to have the profit levels like Toyota/GM ( much lower) in their quest for the top slot. That of course presents internal challenges that really are opaque to us, the consumers.
Prius and Corolla have the same sized 4 cylinder engine (1.8 L) ! The Prius had to go through a few generations, redesigns and even 10 years to even come close. It even has the CVT vs Corolla's older than dirt designs. This is not even to mention the 7,900 MSRP premium.
And some already failed.
X6 Active Blue Stupidity or something like that.
Found a source:
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/19/bmw-x6-active-hybrid-cancelled-with-a-quickne- ss/
Combined weighs city driving more heavily, 55% IIRC, so combined would jump up 6 MPG or so.
I doubt the diesels are more profitable.
They can't thrive by only having the TDIs cannibalize their other models. They have to conquest shoppers looking at efficient competitors.
I used profit in the over all sense and did not sequester diesel profits .
Again this is your thinking. I am sure VW does not want to sell TDI's at the price of K balling VW gassers. So while I am sure some of that happens, NO oem's publishes K ball figures. So again, that is opaque to us, consumers. If anything VW wants to get both new/first car buyers, values current customers, encourages multiple vehicle ownership, and K ball other oems, but I think you know that.
In my case if not for TDI's, I would more than likely NOT buy VW's. So in this case the consumer is a gimme. Additionally I probably will not buy another car or even oem that does not offer a diesel.
Essentially VW needs to figure out how to improve how it is perceived in this US market. But at the same time it has gone from a less than 2.5% of US market share to 3.5% of market share a 40% improvement. I'd say they're whistling DIXIE.
World wide, VW jockeys for positions 1,2,3. They are by far THE most profitable oem of almost any position; in percentage, volume, or any combination.
Europe is in crisis so VW should buckle up for 2-3 years of stagnation at best, probably even drops in sales.
You just inadvertently supported my theory that people looking for an efficient car will not settle for one of VWs gassers.