What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

120+ years and we still wonder if Rudolf's Diesel's "DIESEL's" makes sense ??? !!"(pun and alliteration on purpose? sufferen succotash)

Hydrogen fuel CELLS has easily been the hope of the future since Sputnik (late 50's) ! It was "discovered " in 1838 !? Maybe if we click our heels and recite: " there is no place like home" x .... (whatever makes a mantra) 2188 will be here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

stever

Funny, there was a blurb a few days ago about a "new" diesel electric hybrid that's going to be a game changer too. Did the same thing - did not pay a lot of attention although I can't say I was especially busy at the time. :-)

By the time all the really cool stuff gets here, my ashes will be floating down some river somewhere.

ruking1

This kind of locomotive is already in widespread use.

http://www.getransportation.com/rail/rail-products/locomotives/hybrid-locomotive- .html

stever

Yeah, but this was a passenger car - somewhere over in the EU.

We'll get it "any day now".

ruking1

LOL ! i am hearing you ! Sort of like those two roque IRS agents in the Cincinatti back waters? Or the bad video maker in LOS ANGELES responsible for Benghazi scenarios? Perhaps more PC is the "one armed main" FUGITIVE (Chicago no less) that Richard Kimbo keeps talking about?

fintail

The Subaru is a 2009, so too new for those ailments. No work at all needed aside from regular maintenance, but not the same mileage as that Jetta TDi either - I think he got it up to about 50mpg on some highway trips.

crkyolfrt

Did you read much of the internet fallout regarding those SkyActive diesels? I have, and the issues claimed may have been real enough, but not only were the loudest complaints over a year old, it also came out that there are certain customers perhaps shouldn't be considering a modern clean diesel due to their particular short-trip cold engine commutes, but also due to the unfair emission standards set for these oil burners. Further, the issues they were having was not limited to just the Mazda's diesel.

Now I'm not trying to defend Mazda too much here as I still have a beef with how they left once loyal owners out in the cold when their cars rusted prematurely during a generation when the competition was using extensive galvanized metal and had nowhere near that level of corrosion, resulting in significant depreciative loss for those victims, but I do think some of this bad press mentioned here with the SkyActives is not totally fair or justified.

crkyolfrt

By the time all the really cool stuff gets here, my ashes will be floating down some river somewhere.

Bite your tongue

ruking1

Your points are well taken. I (am sure you and many others) would really like to hear about what owners think. (real world). At this time it would seem there are not many real world Mazda US market diesel owners. For some reason 100,000 miles seems to be a good longer term point for a look back also.

While it might be tempting to think of European diesels as seamless to/with US market diesels, a lot of real world issues and variables serve as sometimes formidable obstacles. aka literal and figurative "OCEANS" apart.

gagrice

I can't find any info when and if the Mazda diesel will make it here. This was the link to the Mazda diesel. As you can see it is gone.

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/videoController.action?op=playVideo&playlistId=4- 85DC4B7EAB238F2&videoId=cK5SQkEUBdo

I think they are only building them to win races and get attention for Mazda. I thought they had to be sold in the USA to qualify for racing.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/07/27/mazda6-indianapolis-speedway- -brickyard/2588713/

ruking1

Perhaps where there is smoke there is....

For as much fanfare as the 14 Cruze diesel has received, GM/Chevrolet seems to have opted for a so called "SOFT" opening, as it lists 1,296 DIESEL units in inventory, with a back drop of 32,343 units or (snapshot only) 4% diesels.

Makes me wonder how Rocky is faring getting a Cruse diesel "employee procedure"?

stever

Could be a CAFE move I suppose but more likely dealers are afraid they'll be stuck with them. Once word gets out they may be fighting over inventory. I suppose GM could be more proactive on selling them - maybe they have supply issues so they are slowly ramping up the diesel engines?

But yeah, there was a lot of fanfare not to pump up the supply line.

crkyolfrt

That's for sure. It is probably within a day or two of being exactly a year ago I stood in a local GM showroom talking with (an idiot) salesman who said he had heard nothing of a diesel Cruze coming to Cda, and frankly he couldn't care less as he was not a fan. Idiot..

I doubt I will buy one, (a Cruze) but if I ever did, I would like to drop by and have him take a look. I think I'd even white lie and tell him I paid 500 over MSRP, haha

That sucks though to hear Mazda pulled them from the site. There were quite a number of very keen fans even just here on Edmund's Mazda forums in anticipation of an oil burner 6 and 5. I wonder if the % content biodiesel has to be massaged a bit more? Darn emission regs. Gawd they hate diesels.

gagrice

Don't the Cruze engines come from the EU somewhere? I don't think we have the expertise to build a decent diesel engine smaller than one for a Peterbilt. The diesel engines in the Domestic PU trucks are totally over kill. Many have more torque than a semi tractor engine. I think the new Ram is over 800 ft lbs of torque. With the 6.7L Cummins diesel and AISIN Auto Transmission can tow up to 30,000lbs. If that is what you need it is available.

For me I think I have the perfect match of power and MPG.

stever

Dunno - Korean maybe? (Wiki).

Good thing it's not an Italian job eh? :-)

gagrice

You know that GM signed $3 billion in supply agreements with Korea before the ink dried on the KORUS agreement. VM Motori is a small engine maker in Italy. Not sure if they can meet the demand for the Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel along with the Ram 1500. They are still a partner of GM. I will give them a spin to see if I should have waited. Now it looks like first of the year before I get a chance.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20130722/OEM10/307229998/italian-diesel-maker-se- es-big-opportunities-in-n.-america#axzz2dQN3JuQt

stever

I can't keep track of all that stuff.

Reading about the Liberty CRD was enough to raise my hackles about VM's diesels.

gagrice

I don't blame VM for that debacle. The people that posted from the EU had great service. It was the smog crap that Chrysler hung on the Liberty CRD that caused problems. That and a weak Transmission. Poor implementation in the US version.

ruking1

I also would agree. Going forward, (people designing for diesels seem to understand this but) a good A/T is an absolute MUST. This seemingly is taking the form of a 6 to 8 speed A/T.

The bedrock assumption is the best mating is a 6/7 speed M/T. So an A/T must be stout enough and geared correctly to take advantage of large torque values @ low rpm.

gagrice

Ram now leads the pack with this combo. They don't mate manual transmission to their highest powered diesels. I like the fact they use the same brand transmission used in our Touaregs.

6.7 L (408 cu in)Cummins diesel I6 (Aisin ASC69RC Automatic) 385 hp (287 kW) 850 lb·ft

Tow rating up to 30,000 lbs. I don't think Ford or GM can match Ram PU trucks for power or towing.

ruking1

That might be a pretty smart strategic move for a lot of reasons.

An easy one that comes to mind: even if the operator admits they burnt the (M/T) clutch out on PURPOSE, (which almost no one WILL) Dodge STILL has marketing, customer service, maintenance AND resale problems. A lose, lose, lose and lose scenario is NOT good business sense!! In addition, I am sure that Dodge has done the same as VW T Aisin 8 speed transmission as it has 2 (redundant) transmission cooling units. I would swag that Dodge RAM 1500 will not get dinged by the use of the Aisin 8 speed A/T.

I think if Dodge can market just half as well as FORD or GM (judging by their sheer volume and % of truck sales), Ram 1500 series will be an absolute hit.

Purely on an anecdotal basis, I am getting the sense the Aisin 8 speed SUV A/T is a very robust unit ! VW was smart to mate a 627# ft capacity to a 406# ft output engine ! (aka safety factor, or whatever anyone else calls it)

As you might agree, it is a very fine unit and extremely fun to drive.

I am sure on the European ZF 8 speed A/T side, it is also a very robust unit.

ohenryx

Are the new half ton Dodge pickups with the the diesel engine on dealer lots now? I would really like to drive one. On the other hand, the 2 Dodge dealers closest to me truly suck. Makes me wonder why the dealers don't ever think about the long term effects of treating people like garbage.

gagrice

I am thinking the whole dealer thing comes from the top. The VW and MB dealers that treated me the best are part of GroupOne. Our closest Dodge/Ram/Jeep dealer is a real mixed bag of nuts. First time in looking for the Jeep diesel I got a knowledgeable sales person. Second time the salesman did not know the difference between a Jeep Grand Cherokee and a Dodge Durango. And did not know they were getting a diesel version of the GC and 1500 Ram PU. What a loser he was. I would not look for either diesel to be on the lots before January.

crkyolfrt

I thought that too, but seems to me the poster on the infamous CRD Liberty thread...forget his name..found that in the end, his major failure was a mechanical component. I think it was a rod that let go. He had quite methodically done emission work-arounds, and sorta cleaned up what Chrysler botched, which then preserved turbo life etc.

I was reading a bit about the turbo used in the Cruze diesel. It sounds sorta capable, but complicated. Variable vane tech etc. My first thought concerned longevity potential.

Apparently RAM is starting the build of the first ecodiesel in Sept for a Nov/Dec delivery date. No pricing yet but the guy thought it will be a 2800- 4300 Cdn hit. Some of that will be for the sturdy tranny it will come with. It is an 8 speed Torque Flite (sp?) I think? Forget the model..

stever

I skim a lot of dealer reviews here and it amazes me to read some of the stories.

And then people go ahead and buy a car after being mistreated by a dealer.

ruking1

I have also received pretty sterling service from two local VW and 1 MB dealer/s. I get the feeling the local Lexus, Infinity, Porsche dealer/s is/are probably of the same ilk. I know for certain the local Toyota dealer is and for literally a decade +.

My swag is the writing has been on the wall for a good long while !?

gagrice

It is an 8 speed Torque Flite (sp?) I think? Forget the model..

The new 8 speed used in all the new Jeep GC and Ram 1500s is a ZF from Germany. Chrysler has bought the rights and plans to open a factory building them here.

The ZF 8HP is an eight-speed automatic transmission, designed and built by ZF Friedrichshafen AG's subsidiary in Saarbrücken. It had its debut in the new BMW 7 Series 760Li saloon fitted with the V12 engine and since then each new BMW model in all Series down to the 1 Series in rear wheel drive and all wheel drive version was equipped with it.

Chrysler Group LLC initially received the 8HP 8-speed automatic transmissions from the ZF Getriebe GmbH plant in Saarbrücken, Germany. By 2013, in parallel with Chrysler Group, ZF has set up a new transmission production plant in North America, where the 8-speed transmissions will be produced. ZF Friedrichshafen and Chrysler Group have reached a supply and license agreement for ZF's 8HP 8-speed automatic transmission. Chrysler Group is licensed to produce the 8HP at the company’s Kokomo Transmission Plant and the Kokomo Casting plant, starting in 2013.
wiki

gagrice

I know you like all the tech stuff about vehicles. This is the best thing I could find on the Aisin Transmission used in the VW Touareg TDI. Looks like it is built to handle well over 700 ft lbs of torque. That should be heavy duty enough.

http://admin.audionlinetraining.com/Upload/SSP/501_ssp466_en%5B1%5D.pdf

crkyolfrt

"For years, fans have dreamed of a diesel engine in a light duty truck. The 2014 Ram 1500 will make that dream a reality. Paired with the legendary TorqueFlite¨ 8 Eight-Speed Transmission, the 3.0L EcoDiesel V6 engine is the ultimate combination of power and innovation."

http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/ecodiesel/

Ya know..I thought it was going to have the ZF too, and was glad to know it. A great name. Although maybe not ZF's fault, but their use in the Dart is not going all that well..

And you probably are correct, they are still going to have the ZF - or I wonder if they are calling the ZF a TorqueFlite? Seems to me that name tho reminds of a name used long ago assoc with Chrysler.

Anyway, that quote above is just what I took right off the site there on the front page in yellow.

As for Aisin in the VW T, I'd love to have that tranny. I hear good things about it and love that it is so conservatively chosen. Some of my positive impressions I have gotten about it I know originated with some info Ruking linked to me last year.

Thanks for that other link..will have to go check it out.

gagrice

They are giving the ZF the TorqueFlite name.

TorqueFlite, a trademarked name for Chrysler’s automatic transmissions that launched with the 1956 three-speed unit and was discontinued in the 1990s, is being reintroduced with the 2013 Ram 1500’s class-exclusive 8-speed automatic transmission, which is supplied by ZF.

http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/press/press_releases/press_release.jsp?newsId=219- 07432

Funny thing researching the Aisin 8 speed transmission used in the Touareg. I could NOT find any mention of that model transmission on the Aisin website. It may have to do with being for VW and Aisin is owned by Toyota.

houdini1

I guess I don't understand how the hybrid electric/hydrogen engine would work. If the fuel cell just generated the electricity it would just seen to be an electric car. As usual, I am confused.

gagrice

You can run gas engines on hydrogen. Remember Ahnold's Hydrogen Hummer?

Hummer has engineered the H2H to use a supercharged version of the regular truck’s 6.0-liter V-8 engine.

The H2H uses a conventional internal combustion engine powered by compressed hydrogen, even though GM’s plans for its future model range involve hydrogen cars powered by energy sources called “fuel-cell stacks.”

The Honda FCX was a fuel cell vehicle that never went far. They promised to lease a bunch of them back in 2008 and only a handful were actually put out to customers in Los Angeles area. Where Hydogen was available.

Fast Forward and I see GM and Honda are joint venturing on Hydrogen cars. Not sure why?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/07/02/honda-gm-general-motors-hydr- ogen-fuel-cells/2481809/

r10r16r5eagle

Injector pump failure on my 1989 Dodge Cummins 5.9 Litre allowed diesel into crankcase. Consistently checking oil levels prevented damage. Problem fixed.

crkyolfrt

Glad you were able to fend off extra expensive repairs by staying apprised of your oil level. Was that a common failure on that generation of engines? I really like all of 'em up until they started using electronic controls..was it around 92?

There is someone lives on my road that has one of the older ones. I think he has done a bit of exhaust work, as it sounds terrific if he gives it a little once starting into a hill near me when he has a loaded tandem trlr out back.

Simple is better. But of course the modern day issues causing oil sump dilution is more because of the more rigid emission regs using raw fuel to burn particulates off the filter. Cold, short trip owners are the ones that seem to have the greatest incidences of this problem.

stever

"By bringing a diesel Cruze to the U.S., Chevy hopes to attract a young buyer who wants something unique and fun to drive.

"They usually love the idea of something different," Mark Reuss, president of General Motors North America, said in an interview with The Times. "And they're willing to pay a little money for it."

Chevrolet Cruze diesel adds fuel efficiency but sticks to recipe (LA Times)

ETA is September. That's tomorrow. :-)

Oh, this part was interesting:

"Moreover, diesels don't compete directly with hybrids, even though both boast fuel efficiency as a main selling point.

"A diesel buyer is not even close to a hybrid buyer," Reuss said. Hybrid buyers "want the car because it makes a statement about sustainability more than anything."

This is one reason that the Toyota Prius — a conspicuous a statement about one's eco-consciousness — is the most popular vehicle in California."

[Deleted User]

Young (male) buyers do not want a Chevy sedan Diesel. If they want a Diesel, it would be a VW product, because Jetta's and Golf TDI are still cool. My nieces want cars that are "fun" and "cute". My nephews want Ford Focus ST and Golf GTI, but also mentioned Fiesta ST. All know that the insurance would be really high on these- so the aforementioned TDI's, with their 240 lb-ft of torque, are very much cool.

Fiat 500's, Mini-Cooper's, and Hyundai Veloster's top the girls short list, and even the Smart Convertible was mentioned. Affordable, fun/cute, and fuel efficient cars are what they want, in that order.

(I have 6 nieces, 4 nephews and three kids and we are all at a bar-b-que today so I asked them. GM is dreaming).

bhill2

My nephews want Ford Focus ST and Golf GTI, but also mentioned Fiesta ST. All know that the insurance would be really high on these- so the aforementioned TDI's, with their 240 lb-ft of torque, are very much cool.

Before buying, be sure that the TDI changes the equation. I spent about 6 years paying higher premiums on my '81 diesel Rabbit because Rabbits were 'sporty' cars and were all surcharged. This was a while ago, but I don't trust insurance companies to give up a chance to collect higher premiums.

stever

On the Cruze, do you really want all that torque on a FWD car?

gagrice

From the article it sounds like Chevy has more engineering to do if they have noticeable turbo lag taking off. That may be the writer as well. I do notice it on the Touareg once in a while. Mostly when I first take off cold. The Beetle TDI we were given to test while having service was very smooth acceleration. The ML350 Bluetec probably had the smoothest acceleration of any diesel I have driven.

I think when you say young buyers you would mean young family buyers with small children. I don't see anything sexy about the Cruze. Or a car young singles would buy. From the people in the waiting room at the VW dealership, college students seemed to be the main demographic. I can tell you the Beetle TDI is popular. Beetle sales were up 86% in July. I was tempted to ask to test drive the Beetle Convertible TDI. First one I have ever seen. He gave us the retro looking one. It was fun to drive. That is high on the list for young people.

scwmcan

Well you would be surprised at the number of young college students here that are driving Cobalt sedans, nothing sexy about them, but they don't seem to mind, that said I think it is more because they are cheap and still fairly new. Unless mommy and daddy are buying they aren't going to be getting a new car anyway. Those who graduate may or may not be interested in a four door sedan ( but it would be different and "sportier" than the CUV's their parents are driving) who knows what people will decide to drive actually, everyone has their own taste. It seems to me automakers are always telling themselves that this vehicle or that will appeal to younger buyers and they almost always sell to the 40-senior crowd since they tend to be better able to afford a new car.

gagrice

CUVs are definitely for the senior crowd. They are just easier to get in and out of. When you get past 60 and the old back starts acting up you realize much of the problem is that Lexus LS you are struggling to get out of.

I think college students get what pop hands them most of the time. My grandson is getting his dad's 7 old Yaris with nothing power including the windows. Likely be his car all through college.

scwmcan

I agree about what the college student get to drive in general, though there are still way more of them driving brand new cars these days thanks to mom and dad as well ( back when I was a student we were lucky to have 10 year old beaters to go to school with, there seem to be way too many with brand new to 2 year old cars nowadays , wonder why they think they can buy everything ( and go way too far into debt) when they get out of college, maybe because their parents have spoiled them and they think that they deserve to have everything right away?)
And as for CUVs I agree about them as well, though I don't think there are really any true Low sedans any more ( they all seem to be the tall roof style now and seem to be as tall as the first generation CUVs) I do find that my Matrix ( which is almost a CUV) is easier to get in and out of than the Mazda 3 and I am only 45, so I get where you are coming from.

bhill2

CUVs are definitely for the senior crowd. They are just easier to get in and out of. When you get past 60 and the old back starts acting up you realize much of the problem is that Lexus LS you are struggling to get out of.

Watch it, sonny. I'm past 60 and I drive a Corvette.

gagrice

Watch it, sonny. I'm past 60 and I drive a Corvette.

Back when I was 60 I wanted a Porsche until I tried getting out in the showroom. It is like buying that cool house with all the step ups and downs or even worse two story. They are fine until your knees start acting up. We have ours all on one level with wide halls.

bhill2

OK, you kind of got me there. Our house has two stories but the master bedroom is on the first floor and there are times when I am glad of that.

gagrice

We sold our two story and bought a ranch style 7 years ago. My knees are now fine. They hurt a lot going up and down the stairs. I am 70 so I am trying to act my age. Though I am enjoying the sportiness of our new Touareg TDI. Handles very nicely on our back country roads. Effortless acceleration uphills. Something the V8 in the Sequoia did not have.

fintail

Back in my college days (say late 90s), new and newer cars for students weren't uncommon either - I'd say 80% of them driven by girls, as well. Hoverparent boomers who have cashed in on unrepeatable investment inflation don't want their little princess to have to worry about anything. When I was in school, I drove the fintail - it had a few hiccups, but I was able to keep it going without huge expense.

Something I see today that wasn't around in the past is foreign national students on (purchased) "student" visas rolling around in new Ferraris and other exotics, purchased by heaven knows what kind of embezzled, laundered, or otherwise sketchy money.

Regarding the debt, I think a lot of that is built in school rather than after, now that there is a much greater gap between lower wage jobs vs school costs than in the past.

scwmcan

Oh indeed there is a lot of debt built into the schooling, maybe it is different down there as opposed to here in Canada as well ( I know that even though our tuition has increased dramatically since I went to school it it still nowhere near as expensive as in the states from what I have heard). In any case here from what i have seen many students get out of school and get the new luxury car and 3000 sq ft house right away, I have no idea how they get the loans for it all with the school debt on top of it, I know we are not rich ( we are in the comfortable what I would consider middle class Around 100,000 combined income) and there s no way we would be buying a house for $400,000 and two new luxury cars ( or even one really). We have a much more modest house, and our newest car is. 2009 that I bought with cash from an insurance settlement, I do have two cars of my own ( the 2009 and a 2005 smart) but the only reason is because of he settlement)., in any case there is no way we would very carry that much debt, or be able to live comfortably with it, yet these students out of college ( or university) are doing it, the only way I can see is with their parents help, which really isn't helping them learn how to live on their own ( much like the HGTV shows where the kids are going out a getting a house "on their own" with only 100,000 + of their parents money as it will teach them to be responsible, makes no sense to me). In any case I just don't know how they do it.

gagrice

I would pass on it. I think the 6.9 Second time of the Touareg TDI is more than adequate to get into the flow of traffic. Not sure who BMW is competing with. They could widen their market with a bit better seats and comfort. They may be too much the sports snobs to try and appeal to mainstream Luxury buyers.

The sporty temperament of the latest diesel engines finds even more potent expression in the BMW X5 M50d. This M Performance Automobile likewise gets a 3.0-litre straight-six unit, in this case featuring M Performance TwinPower Turbo technology with three-stage turbocharging. The three turbochargers work in harmony to maximise power output. Fuel is supplied via a common rail piezo injection system developing maximum pressure of 2,200 bar. This engine has a maximum output of 280 kW/381 hp and develops its peak torque of 740 Newton metres / 546 lb-ft between 2,000 and 3,000 rpm. The 0-100 km/h (62 mph) time of the BMW X5 M50d is 5.3 seconds (- 0.1 seconds), with average EU fuel consumption of 6.7 litres/100 km (42.2 mpg imp), an 11 per cent (0.8 l/100 km / 4.5 mpg imp) improvement on the predecessor model. CO2 emissions stand at 177 g/km (-22 g/km).

ohenryx

I would pass on it. I think the 6.9 Second time of the Touareg TDI is more than adequate to get into the flow of traffic.

The 0-100 km/h (62 mph) time of the BMW X5 M50d is 5.3 seconds

I would agree with you that 6.9 seconds is more than adequate, but if someone offered me 5.3 seconds for the same price, with all else being equal, I would take the higher performance.

I was surfing the web the other day, and a window popped up -- one of those "like my music video so I can win $10,000" things. Before I had a chance to kill the window, the sound started and immediately riveted me to my seat.

Remember what a big block V8 with a 3/4 cam, and big tube headers sounded like at idle? That was the opening sound to this music video, and no finer music has ever been heard, at least not by me. I always wanted to be rich, like Reggie Jackson or Jay Leno, and have a 40 car garage filled with such sights and sounds. Sigh....