What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

The bad /good news? :sick: :shades:

Filled the 03 Jetta TDI today, 556 miles posted 51.48 mpg. The odometer is close to 178,000 miles.

ateixeira

In 178k miles the 1.8T would have gone through about 4 sets of ignition coils, too.

ruking1

LOL ! What are those?

ateixeira

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/17/2013-porsche-cayenne-diesel-first-drive-revie- w-video/

Is that related to your Touareg TDI?

qbrozen

mmmm... me likey.
A bit on the portly side.
I wonder what that combination could do in a Panamera.

ruking1

That would be " frankensteining" both vehicles. :sick: The Panamera offerings already ARE that way: from the " mild to wild" optioning ! ?

But then on the other hand, the Porsche Cayenne TDI " alone" can MSRP from 57k to OVER 100k !!

ateixeira

The new one looks much better than the original Cayenne, but I still haven't warmed to the idea of Porsche allocating resources to non-sports cars.

Panameras have to be fast so that you never look back (at the back, I mean).

ruking1

Indeed that is a common theme. But I guess that is what happens when a company like Porsche (smaller) tries to take over a company like VW.

As is well known, VW easily bought Porsche. In any case, all good for the "controlling interest". It was a heads: he and his family wins. Tails: he and his family wins !! Do nothing: same as the other two. What is not to like? Big? Small? Small BIG? It kind of all comes together.

Perhaps more of the reality is the Cayenne line is the bulk of sales and profit and what keeps "Porsche" viable as a smaller entity. This is not to mention the fact it is a smaller off shoot of the now huger VW. The controlling interest still has a lot of control !

xwesx

Nice! SUVs with decent fuel economy are a good combination (sport-oriented or not!).

Alaska was their test site. That's definitely the way to go! It looks like their foray took them down on the Kenai Peninsula. Beautiful country down there. The roads are fun too, if you can find enough space to enjoy them a little bit.

gagrice

I like the looks of the Touareg twin better. I would bet they are made in the same factory.

habitat1

Wow, that's interesting. We just bought an X5d but I think the Cayenne diesel is the best looking mid size SUV on the road, inside and out. Of course, I owned a 911 so the front end and interior dash and center console look really nice to me. It's just enough smaller than the X5 that the size was an issue. Not to mention a $10,000 higher price tag. The Touareg is a very nice car in all respects, but the style is more Passat than 911. To each their own, as they say and all of these are great vehicles that can get 30+/- mpg on the highway.

qbrozen

I like the looks of the Panamera.

I would think that diesel would probably get mid to high 30mpg in it. And acceleration in the low 6s. That would be quite impressive, IMHO.

Of course, the current Panamera start about $20k more than the diesel Cayenne. Yikes!

ruking1

Panamera TDI

It gets back to what I was saying about "frankensteining"

..."He went on to admit that because a diesel wasn't planned at the start of the Panamera program, there isn't space to package Audi's new 313-hp twin turbo version of the same engine."...

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1108_2012_porsche_panamera_diesel_dri- - - - - ve/#ixzz26yPLAFqK

Some of the torque figures are breathtaking. 240 hp and 406 # ft are pretty intoxicating. Using the same ratios a 313 hp TDI would post 529 # ft.

I am also not sure why they only list 27 mpg (diesel Panamera) while the USA Porsche Cayenne, Q7,Touareg, list 28 EPA and weighs app 800#s more.

gagrice

I would expect the Cayenne to be very good handling like the X5. I know the X5D I test drove was much better handling than my Tuna boat Sequoia.

ruking1

I think it pretty standard for any oem to bring unifying styling cues in its model line. So given your post (style cues wise) , I am projecting you like the Cayenne, X5 D and Touareg. (in the order of those diesels mentioned.)

ruking1

Suspension options can easily add MSRP's of $5,970. These are on top of an already stellar system. Different sizing on the wheels, tires and even brakes (MSRP $8,150) combinations present another almost another level of staggering array of options. Aftermarket items are anyones literal guess.

qbrozen

I'm not sure what you mean about frankensteining. Just because they add a different engine option?

Yeah, I don't get the mileage figure. The article about the Cayenne said 29 highway. So how does a more aerodynamic and much lighter vehicle get worse mileage? Gearing difference? Very odd.

ruking1

Correct. Reading the article should clear up the confusion. If not, my humble readers digest interpretations are: the Panamera was not conceived with room for the specifications of a BIGGER (higher hp/torque twin turbo) diesel motor, lsuch as the 4.3 ? L 313 hp and 529 # ft ? MONSTER: let alone a diesel motor Additionally they were probably just by the skin of the specifications teeth, "shoe horn" in the 3.0 L TDI. (parts bin if one will)

I am sure gearing/transmissions had/have something to do with it. However gearing is normally different for a higher end touring sedan than for a higher end SUV/CUV. In any case, this speaks well for the (Cayenne's) Aisin 8 speed transmission. I am led to believe the Panamera's 7 speed transmissions are made by ZF.

This might be rather arcane to gush over a Japanese transmission in higher end German CUV. :blush: :shades:

qbrozen

I believe you are correct on the transmissions.

The Cayenne and the Panamera diesels both use the 8-speed auto, though.

There must be something about that particular diesel engine's design that makes it awkwardly sized since Porsche is able to put a turbo V8 in the Panamera.

ruking1

ZF did come out (me too or AFTER the Aisin 8 speed A/T) with an 8 speed A/T product. Again I am overwhelmed by what I do not know about the design specifications of that "8 HP Kit" in terms of product inclusion on the Panamera.

habitat1

I think it pretty standard for any oem to bring unifying styling cues in its model line.

That's true, but how they do it can have different results. For example, I think the Audi A7 is a great looking car, but the Q7 TDI's front grill looks like a Mack truck to me. The old Cayenne looked awkward, the new Cayenne seems much more proportionally attractive. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

Regarding a previous post on the Cayenne Diesel, I had a chance to test drive one last night. Short drive, but I can say unequivocally that it is quicker, tighter and much more sporty of a drive than the Touareg and Q7. Porsche may have borrowed the base engine from VW, but they must have cooked it in their special oven to give it an extra dose of adrenaline. It also helps that the Cayenne is several hundred pounds lighter, but the engine itself just felt noticeably more responsive than the VW and Audi.

ruking1

According to Edmunds.com the 2013 Cayenne diesel is app MINUS- 179#'s lighter than the 2012 VW Touareg. I have not seen the 2013 VW T specifications. It does sport 240 hp vs 225 hp, but 406 # ft is the same. The 2013 VW T is also due the 240 hp version, so I think they are probably more similar.

This is just a swag, but the 15 hp more is probably at higher rpm. (my op ed "LESS" usable, but probably quicker spooling)

So clearly, the combination of those two variables are SOTP's noticeable. Mine has neither. (15 more hp and Minus 179 #'s)

The weight is significant in that the rule of thumb is 1 to 2 mpg per 100#'s. That fact alone (-179#s) could account for the EPA better of 1 mpg. (20/28 vs 19/28)

However for $600 ... chipping for 280 hp and 427 # ft is available. :shades: It is starting to seem like a better and better deal. (quicker spooling AND (for me) more grunt)

ateixeira

much better handling than my Tuna boat Sequoia

That's not really fair.

I bet the Sequoia handles at least as well as an Expedition or Suburban, and those are more direct competitors. For fuel economy comparisons, too.

qbrozen

15 hp in a roughly 2.5-ton vehicle ain't gonna amount to any measurable difference anyway.

ruking1

In any case, 15 hp is 6.7% greater ( than 225 hp for 240 hp). So why are we emphasizing one hand clapping, and leaving out the other measurable : 1 mpg better mostly likely due to Minus - 179#'s. 5.3%

All this stuff has been low hanging fruit from hp/torque, mpg, weight perspective and for a long time. OEM's like to tell us how hard it is to shed these #'s.

habitat1

I was surprised to see that the Cayenne Diesel only weighs 179 lbs less than the Touareg TDI. That's nearly 400 lbs more than the Cayenne V6 6-speed manual I test drove in July. But my SOTP comparison was probably more based upon the Q7 that I test drove more extensively than the Touareg. The Q7 is 5,567 lbs - a whopping 770 pounds heavier than the Cayenne diesel.

Also, while weight is a factor, I don't think your rule of thumb of 1-2 mpg per 100#'s is accurate. If that was the case, the Q7 would be rated 6-12 mpg lower than the Touareg. Weight is a bigger factor in stop and go traffic in the city, but for highway cruising, rolling resistance, aerodynamics, and engine/gearing efficiency are relatively more important. Our X5d, no lightweight at nearly 5,200 lbs, still managed to get 29.4 mpg on the 510 mile trip home from the factory.

I'm going to a Porsche special driving event this Sunday at Summit Point Raceway. Mostly to try out the new Boxster and 911. But if they have a Cayenne diesel there, I'll give it another drive around the track.

ruking1

Given those Q7 metrics, I can understand why you had the perception/s that you did. 772 #'s are 5 people weighing 155#'s each. Any car will behave differently with 5 to 6 passengers. (one still has to have a driver @ 155#'s in this example) meaning the other 4 correctly weigh more like 193#'s)

ateixeira

I'm going to a Porsche special driving event this Sunday at Summit Point Raceway

How'd you get invited? Club?

Did an Audi event there once and had a blast in a Q7 TDI going around the carousel.

Make sure to put the transmission in Sport else the stability control freaks out and cuts the throttle. Go figure, a transmission setting affects the nanny that slows you down!

habitat1

Porsche sales manager invited me. Guess they think buying an X5d at their sister dealership didn't deplete our checking account enough, so he wants to show off the new Boxster and 911. Unfortunately the fun car I'd be most interested in - the new Cayman - won't be out for another few months. But hey, I'll burn up some rubber at someone else's expense.

ateixeira

Cool. I inquired about an A4 and got an invite to a track day a couple of years ago.

Oh heck yeah, I'm going.

Heard an R8 running around the track but you have to pay and only got to be a passenger, no thanks.