What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice

I just heard on Facebook there was a blizzard on the Dalton Highway. You may be looking at an early winter my friend.

ruking1

Yahoo's
10 Reasons You Should Buy A Diesel

xwesx

Why is it that *I* don't hear about these things?! Hahaha. Well, winter will come soon enough, inevitably. We were at ~80 degrees a week ago and now we're in mid-50s during the day, so the season is a-changing fast!

I'm on a five-week "vacation" starting Friday night, so let winter come early here. I still don't have to deal with it until the end of September! We'll be tooling across the continent, and much further south than Alaska!

gagrice

Well have a great trip and keep us posted if you have access & time on your Road Trip.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f22e360/422#MSG422

ruking1

I hope all you folks that are traveling are having a great time and a safe trip !! Keep us all updated !

ruking1

"Canada Looks To Sell Its Oil Beyond U.S." indicates ,

"Exporting (American, aka domestic (my sic) crude oil has been prohibited in the U.S. since 1975. ( for those that didn't know that) Everybody knows that (US) domestic energy development has been severely limited for at least that long.

(38 years or more than a generation).

ruking1

2014 Mercedes-Benz E250 BlueTec Sedan – First Look and Review

Way cool for a "porker"! ..." Curb weight (lbs) 4,409"... " (09 VW Jetta TDI is sub 3.3k #'s)

crkyolfrt

I don't even have to look to assume that must be a 4Matic?

Assuming (and pretty confidently so of course) crash protection potential, if I had to be in a crash, I think I'd pick that E over the 09 Jetta. Although not to be too hard on the newer Jettas. They are pretty sturdy little cars.

ruking1

For app 20 to 25k LESS !? No brainer for most folks who want to make a trip over to the "dark side" ! A crash (for a diesel) to within one inch of ones life is a definite outlier ! But then a guy whose posted on this thread, and whom zI actually know, lost a tire belt and rolled his 2000+ Jetta TDI multiple times, walked away with no serious injury (bumps, bruises obviously)

But then you did express a preference for an all wheel drive.

crkyolfrt

Yes, the is a given and evident in basically all my posts anywhere.

But when I said I assume it is for the 4Matic, I was referring to the probable reason for it being so heavy...(acknowledging your "porker" comment).

gagrice

BMW is hitting the diesel scene hard with their new 43 MPG rated 328d. I heard them advertised on the radio this morning. In stock and ready to go. I wonder if the wagons are in stock as well. Not sure if they come in AWD or not. Local BMW dealer has 7 listed in stock. I hope it is a big seller for BMW.

tifighter

328d wagon is AWD only.

xwesx

It's not looking like it offers the option of a manual transmission, either. Too bad.

crkyolfrt

I suspect that we are seeing the majority of these new very powerful diesels come in these nameplates with AWD only, because of the very torque that would have them breaking loose and have TC intervening all the time if they were only RWD or FWD although..can't think of any FWD off hand..

crkyolfrt

Possibly due to the use of newer dual mass flywheels? Personally, after recently finding out about the negative repercussions of a DMF if not driven correctly, (poor clutch life potential...which.. due to the power pulses being inherently more evident with a diesel) makes the use of a DMF at the risk of clutch life, all that more risky from a mfgr's wty point of view.

gagrice

While visiting with my VW salesman the other day, he told me the Manual Transmission TDIs go out as soon as they arrive. They have a list of folks wanting them. You can order one from VW for many of their vehicles. They may not make a MT heavy enough for the torque of some V6 diesels???

xwesx

I am watching the expansion of diesel offerings with interest. But, if they follow this no manual trend, I will most likely give a FWD TDI Jetta Sportwagen a shot the next time I pull the trigger.

Really, though, I would prefer an AWD, minivan-like, diesel with a MT (~35mpg highway). Why is that so hard to accommodate?

In all seriousness, though, an AWD wagon with a manual would be a fine alternative.... as long as its fuel economy was 15-20% better than the minivan listed above.

ruking1

Good luck in both waiting cues ! The author Samuel Beckeet wrote a play about such things. I think it was "Waiting For Godot".

BUT if I were in the market for an AWD Wagon, the BMW 328D does have the ZF 8 speed A/T !!! ?? (looks like anyway) If it is anything like the VW T TDI's 8 speed transmission, it still is a winner. The cheapest one around here (11 in inventory) is sub 45k MSRP.

fintail

You can see Russia from your porch, right? They can buy that AWD diesel van there

The BMW wagon might be something I look at in the future, should cash flow allow. The Audi 3.0 unit is getting good reviews too.

crkyolfrt

Well RFTs will be part of the deal too, being a BMW

And too much engine. IMO, there just isn't any need for anything more powerful than MB's 2.1 4 cyl. It has a better price point (assumedly if used), better FE, tons of torque in vehicles the size we are talking about, and provide better chassis balance and handling because it is a lighter engine than the V6.

Quite the price to pay for ever so slightly smoother operation.

And those dang tires. If BMW had a brain in their collective heads, they would make RFTs an option across the board on all trim levels and models. That way if people want them they can pay for them, and if they don't, BMW gets to sell to a larger audience.

fintail

Some drivers like too much engine - and the 328d is a 2.0 4 as well. Sadly, there's no C wagon in NA at all, not to mention a 4Matic diesel variant here - so you have to take what you can get. Looks like MB needs that 8th gear to compete with mpg now, like BMW and Audi.

I agree about the RFTs, I don't get the infatuation. If for some reason I buy my leased car, first modification I am doing is the tires.

crkyolfrt

Oh..I didn't realized it was 4 cyl too. Well that part is great. How many ftlbs is it? Anywhere near MB's 369?

I also didn't realize your E had them. That is one good thing about Cda I guess..there are more avail here that don't have them. BMW not being one tho..

xwesx

You can see Russia from your porch, right?

No, but I can see it from my roof!

And, I'm pretty much anti-automatic, so while I don't mind using cars that have them, I'm not going to buy one unless there is truly no other alternative. So, if BMW hangs their little carrot over my head saying, "come, buy our totally awesome automatic for $50K," and another manufacturer says, "come, buy our nice manual that has half the fuel economy of BMW's totally awesome automatic for $30K," I'm going to buy the nice manual. Sorry, but neither diesel nor AWD is worth sacrificing my transmission choice. Not yet.

I think I *would*, however, be willing to get an automatic on that minivan dream I mentioned above. But, not on a car. So, for example, if Subaru does bring their diesel Forester to NA, but without the 6-speed available elsewhere, they'd not sell me one.

In other news, I towed my trailer today with my Fiesta. It's a small trailer (8'x8' w/ 4' tongue), but my car is still smaller, so I sure received a few looks!

ruking1

..."And those dang tires. If BMW had a brain in their collective heads, they would make RFTs an option across the board on all trim levels and models. That way if people want them they can pay for them, and if they don't, BMW gets to sell to a larger audience."...

People like us are really the "OUTLIER" consumers. I think it is a hold over (just like the "stinky diesel" sentiment of 20 to 30 years past) when a full sized spare was "NORMAL". Truth is the outlier IS the oem that provides full sized spares, as most oem's provide and /or going to the space and weight saver and/or pump and flat sealant and have for decades. VW 03 and 09 Jetta TDI's came with full sized spares (can do a 5 tire rotation) The 2012 Touareg TDI comes with the space saver, as they I think were trying to go mainstream. Gagrice will know for certain, as I read VW went back to the full sized spare (for the 13 VW T TDI) due to the bru ha ha switching caused ( amongst the faithful ) as VW is probably one of the hold outs. 20/20 hindsight dictates I really should have pitched a fit (surveys). However the truth was it was not a deal breaker.

Part of the MB schtick is the (integral) part the run flat tires play in the roadside aid and assistance program. I haven't heard yet the BMW schtick for the BMW 328 D yet. It will not get me past CA state mtn chain control.

The Edmunds.com write up, if I remember correctly, lists 280 # ft of torque. I am guessing they calmed both the stroke AND lowered rpm for (lower) max torque, tuning of course, gunning for the 45 mpg+ .

crkyolfrt

I really appreciate being able to do a 5 tire rotation. So of course the spare has to be on an aluminum rim too, saving weight, but not cheaping out.

Further, I firmly believe that a vehicle that has a full sized spare (or at least some form of donut being better than nothing) is a safer vehicle to be in if one gets rear ended.

dave8697

there is a big difference between my two lower miles vehicles. The 2.4 liter car seemed to get better mileage when I shut the windows and turned on the a/c. The entire trip home was with a/c and the trip down to NC was a 55 degree day so no a/c. The trip back was .3 mpg less with a/c on all the time. 465 miles each way. The trip back also had a new air filter. It was 20-30 degrees cooler on way down. anyway, both ways were 38 point something mpg.
My 4.8 liter hasn't been on a long trip in 5 years and seems to get 2 mpg less with the a/c on. That 2 mpg is 10%

gagrice

My 2013 T Reg TDI has that strange inflatable spare. The RFT issue is more than no spare. It has to do with rougher ride which BMW owners don't seem to mind. And of course limited availability and cost are big factors as well. The assumption you will always be within 50 miles of a proper tire facility is what I find ignorant. There are many stretches across the Western USA that don't even have a gas station for 50 miles. Let alone a tire dealer that is going to stock every odd ball tire.

As much as I liked the handling and acceleration of the X5 diesel it has some annoying things to me. The inline 6 while possibly superior to the V6 diesels makes for a larger turning radius. I prefer the maneuverability of the Touareg. 39 ft vs 42 ft turning radius with the BMW. The NAV while it has some good features with BMW assist the screen is much smaller and harder to read. I am guessing the 2014 or 2015 X5 will jump ahead.

houdini1

328d. 180 hp, 280 ft. pounds torque.

crkyolfrt

So still very very capable. I suspect a single turbo then, as only 100 cc less displacement than MB's 2.1 yet 89 fewer ft lb, which is more than a 100 cc would represent. So they are using smaller capacity fuel injectors too I suspect which also renders the higher still FE numbers than MB. (in the GLK, but of course the GLK is going to push more air than BMW's wagon, and is a few pounds heavier still).

Seeing what the GLK can do, I'd say that same engine in a similar type vehicle like a 4Matic C class wagon, I predict that even tho it has higher output, I suspect it will be the FE champ. That 2.1 sounds almost too good to be true. And if MB were to derate it a bit for lighter wagon duty, the FE spread could be that much greater still.

Personally tho, I would be quite satisfied with that lower output and would still make it a competent canyon carver and tower when needed.

fintail

In Germany, you can get a C250 or C350 diesel 4Matic wagon - automatic is mandatory. Consumption on the 250 (204hp model) is 5.5l/100km. For 2WD models, you can get as low as a 120hp diesel variant, which can do 4.8l/100km. Somehow, the 170hp variant does 4.7l/100km. There are 5 different variants of the 2WD C diesel wagon there, and all of the 4cyl models base with a 6-speed manual. Amazing.

fintail

I wonder if they fare poorly in snow, so they are not offered there. The way I look at them, they offer all the harshness as a performance low profile tire, but with none of the actual performance.

fintail

That's too bad, as manuals are still slowly waning. You should spend a year in Seattle, you'll be cured

I assume you have a lightweight trailer.

ohenryx

In other news, I towed my trailer today with my Fiesta. It's a small trailer (8'x8' w/ 4' tongue), but my car is still smaller, so I sure received a few looks!

I'm going to hazard a guess here - that was a typo, right? You really meant to say 4x8 feet, not 8x8 feet? 8 feet is very wide, I don't think I've ever seen an 8x8 trailer.

gagrice

I’d like to officially grant General Motors a pardon for good behavior and time served.

Surely more than any other company, GM was responsible for the death of diesel-powered cars in the USA back in the 1980s thanks to its lineup of smoky, stinky, underpowered and, I’ll reiterate, smoky engines that thankfully dissipated with the also unlamented Chevrolet Chevette in 1986.

But with the introduction of the 2014 Chevrolet Cruze Diesel, the company has literally washed the slate clean and opened the door to a new era of clean, powerful compression-ignition cars from Detroit.

I had no problem breaking the 50 mpg mark, and that was on a couple of long, 70 mph highway runs. Unfortunately, things drop off dramatically around town to 27 mpg, which is no better than the most economical gasoline-powered Cruze, so you’ll need to do a little personal profiling to decide if diesel really is the one for you.

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2013/08/22/test-drive-2014-chevrolet-cruze-diesel- /

crkyolfrt

His findings with the low city FE number just doesn't add up. Not when you factor in his highway numbers. The car does have a 6 sp so assuming the ratios are well spaced for real world driving (city + hwy) the same aspects of the engine returning exceptional hwy numbers, should also allow it to return higher than average city numbers. It makes no sense if it really does only get similar to the gas job. So that is one strike against the reviewer, IMO. Second strike comes with the suggestion that DEF would cost even $30.00.

Having driven both the 1.8 and 1.4 in 2011, I do believe what he says about the suspension though. Let's just say it sure can't be confused with a VW.

I have a question for anyone who knows. About low rolling resistance tires. When I first heard of these, I assumed that their primary characteristic difference from a conventional tire were more flexible sidewalls. I asked about this at a local GM dealer in 2011, and surprise surprise, the shop guy there didn't have any idea about them. And no one ever got back to me either after they said they would check and get back to me. Fail. Since, I have heard that they use much higher than normal operating PSI...as in like 50 or more? Is this true?

stever

Stiff sidewalls mean less rolling resistance and higher mpg, right?

You can get some good info over in Tires, tires, tires.

I bet they use harder compounds too for the "high mpg" tires, maybe less aggressive tread designs.

crkyolfrt

Well, the harder compounds would support that reviewer's screeching tires on the cloverleaf. And screeching means loss of grip.

I'll have to go check the tires tires out, thanks. I guess my original assumption was that more flexible sidewalls would offer less resistance to road irregularities and stones, pebbles, expansion joints etc. As an example of this, picture taking a bicycle rim with no tire on it at all (the extreme of a stiffer sidewall if it was tired) and try to roll it on a pave surface with some stones thrown up on the pavement from trucks etc pulling up on corners etc. Now try the same test with a tire on the rim. The one with the tire will roll over the pebbles easier and thereby offering less resistance due to the conformation of the tire as it goes over each pebble. I also have had experience with better FE with any Michelin I have ever owned than other brands, and I know that they have a reputation for having softer sidewalls than others. So that too swayed my original assumptions about LRR tires.

edit...so..in thinking this through a bit more, and since we know that underinflated tires may have a sidewall that conforms more easily over a stone, that they also do have much more rolling resistance due to the extra friction on the road, and the fibres and rubber design of the tire. So with this line of thought, I suspect that LRR tires literally would use more fuel if you traveled dirt roads more than paved roads. And maybe even same potential when traveling a snow or rain covered road too..

The same principle behind a hard surface (LRR tire) on hard surface (pavement) or also why racing bicycles use thin tires pumped to what? around 125 psi or so.. have less rolling resistance...that same principle would work against you if on a surface that was made up of nothing but little wedges, as in gravel on a gravel road.

gagrice

I got a feeling they geared the Cruze to get the higher 46 MPG EPA rating. Those tall gears work against them around town. The larger Passat TDI gets better city mileage and overall mileage than the Cruze diesel. Both with 6 speed auto. I think GM was looking for that high number on the highway mileage. That is their bragging point in ads in the internet.

I am just happy the gungho GM fans finally have a decent vehicle to buy. It should sell to the traveling sales crowd. Much more practical than the Volt. Those that want a manual transmission will still have to buy a VW diesel.

gagrice

I was just looking for the Mazda 6 diesel news. All I can find is it has a serious problem. According to the owners blog this is it:

2014 Mazda6 Diesel - Serious Problems

Wow, people are cancelling their orders out in Europe and Australia for the SkyActive Diesel due to the problems of diesel fuel overfilling the crankcase.

Mazda's response to this is that the owner MUST check their dipstick level every 600 miles or Mazda will void the warranty if and when the engine seizes.

Mazda is also calling for oil changes every 2,000km or 1,200 miles:

http://www.derwan.com/download/MazdaDieselCare.jpg

crkyolfrt

Hmmmm...I suspect there must be a lot more to this news than what we are hearing here. I don't believe Mazda makes the claim of having to have 1200 mile oil change intervals..there will be something else going on here..

ruking1

What is to like about a diesel (any car actually) that is almost like traveling around with a hand grenade wired for almost any condition, pulling the literal/figurative safety pin? The only real notice is you hear the spoon fly and 3 to 4 seconds later it.... goes off?

Mazda's response is almost comical. If the engine does not go bad, we warrant it. If it goes bad, you have just voided your warranty. !! ??? We used to vilify VW for having an "indifferent" customer attitude.

A 1,200 miles oil change? One guess, not on Mazda's dime? I am used to an oem recommendation of 10,000 miles and practically run 30,000 miles OCI's. The numbers indicate 733% to 2400% longer for VW diesels. Consumption of oil is app 1/4 to 1/2 qt/L (8 oz to 16 oz) in 30,000 miles. So far the oil consumption on the Touareg is 4 oz in 10,000 miles.

crkyolfrt

I got a feeling they geared the Cruze to get the higher 46 MPG EPA rating. Those tall gears work against them around town.

Yes, true enough, but that is where ratio spacing comes into play. Maybe they screwed up 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear ratios, cuz the engine certainly has no shortage of torque if they still wanted to have those bragging rights' hwy numbers with a bigger spread from 4th (a guess...low rpm 30 to 45 mph city cruising) to 5th (a guess..low rpm 40 to 55 mph) and then 6th gear (geared just low enough that it doesn't want to be too quick to downshift into 5th when someone accelerates a bit while already doing 65+..again a measure to ensure the higher hwy numbers).

ruking1

If either of my 2.0 L TDI's (VW's in my case) got 27 mpg in city, I would think something would be radically wrong with them.

Indeed if my 3.0 L TDI got 27 mpg, I would ALSO think something would be wrong with it, just not radically !!!

Evidently a weakness in the Cruze TDI on prime time. My swag (also) is a transmission gearing issue. Additionally it might be an indicator of a less than robust transmission unit (bean counters finger prints are suspect here) . Mazda 6's TDI is obviously not ready for prime time.

gagrice

There is something amiss with the SkyActivD diesel engine. When you go to the diesel page on the Mazda website it is OOOPS page missing. So I don't know if it is a go yet for the US market. They are winning races with the diesel 6 here in the USA. Of course they change to oil every race and tear down the engine. I cannot imagine having to check the oil every 600 miles. I have not had to do that since I got rid of my 1974 Dodge Van.

http://www.mazdausamedia.com/2013-06-01-MAZDA-WINS-AGAIN-WITH-SKYACTIV-D-CLEAN-D- IESEL

ohenryx

It is common over time for the oil level to increase above the "full" mark

I have never, not once, in my entire long life, ever encountered that statement before. If your oil level goes up you have a very, very serious problem. If I purchased a new car, and the oil level went up, we would be talking "lemon law".

crkyolfrt

lemon law.... i hear ya...

two causes for oil level to go up is either from fuel, be it diesel or gas, getting ino the crankcase. Very bad. And of course an internally leaking head gasket, so it is coolant that is contributing to the level on the dip stick...even worse

I somehow smell a rat here..that jpg did look like a Mazda style, but surely if they do have a problem with THAT much diesel getting into the crank case that they are enough concerned of oil dilution and all the other associated grief over too high a CC level, to have an owner check it every 600 miles...what is this 1934? then surely Mazda would simply find the fix to this before releasing to the consumer. And 1200 mi OCI is ridiculous. I'm sure we will hear some form of rebuttal or explanation about this soon.

Quite the effort if a competitor got this going, eh? Haven't they ever heard of no such thing as bad press??

If it were true, I'd be canceling my order too, but I doubt it is. They may have a problem..but the numbers must be outta whack..

edit - there is one odd spec of Mazda's new diesels tho..compared to most all other mass-produced diesels out there...the compression ratio is barely higher than the new gas jobs they build, which is a good 3 or 4:1 less than most. Amazing...and even more so if they are still good starters in the cold.

gagrice

It is really hard to find much about the Mazda6 diesel. The source on the diesel leaking into the crankcase comes from the Mazda6 club Forum. Could be a poster that hates diesel. Though I did not get that impression.

http://forum.mazda6club.com/mazda-6-3rd-generation-2013-present/264345-2014-mazd- a6-diesel-serious-problems.html

In Australia they are blaming it on the DPF.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/12/mazda-asking-australian-diesel-owners-t- o-monitor-oil-levels/

ruking1

Well I think that is the symptom for the problem (flooding/leaking diesel fuel/AdBlue? into crankcase) . Normally there is oil CONSUMPTION. The oil level OVER the fuel mark really just sez (defacto) you can NOT judge by oil loss or apparent consumption.

Self inflicted gunshot wounds whether due to DPF or migration of diesel fuel to the crankcase still HURT !? I hope Mazda can navigate its way out of this seemingly terminal crisis.

dave8697

A road test for an article that delivers exactly the EPA listed 27 city mpg in town. A phenomenal number for a GM car. Means avg drivers can expect at least 35 in town from it after break-in.

crkyolfrt

Well, I just fininished reading the entire thread, and there is not a doubt in my mind that Lbear (the guy who started that thread) is NOT a diesel fan. Many there on page 2, 4 and 5 (especially the later posts) all became more convinced he was a troll.

Also what came out on that thread was that all new (engines, gas and diesel) that have these extra high fuel injector pressures, and on (too) short of trips to properly warm the oil (30 min in winter minimum) have this potential oil dilution issue. I would recommend reading the thread. Very good info there by a real life owner of a wagon in Italy. Sound very credible. Gives great real world FE figures too, altho i would go by his litre/100 km {62.13 miles} figures if you are Cdn, cuz his mpg he converted assuming USA readers. i.e. He is getting way higher mpg than any Cdn, using his numbers would assume.

Also read ExB5 posts. Sounds very knowledgeable.

Furthermore, this guy Lbear dug up YEAR OLD info. If not a troll, definitely a securely nailed/bolted/and tied to the top of the fence diesel tire kicker. No more, and probably less..