What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

stever

Who knows why the big spread - that was over by Ft. Campbell.

The spread here in Chattanooga is all over the map, but seems to be around 50 cents at a lot of places. The RUG / Premium spread is about 40 cents.

Gas is so cheap here I may splurge and try a tank of ethanol free stuff when I fill up again.

gagrice

The unknown corrosive ethanol factor is a very good reason to buy a diesel vehicle. I don't think there is any ethanol free gas in CA.

ruking1

For whatever reason there SEEMS to be almost no consumer/customer dissatisfaction with the increased fuel consumption with any % increase in ethanol per gal.

dudleyr

Every station has pure gas in South Dakota. 87 and Premium are 100% gas and 89 is 10% ethanol. 89 is usually $.10 cheaper than 87.

Not much interference from the gov out here.

No safety inspections.
No emissions inspections.
No property tax on vehicle (no county sticker)
Actually no stickers of any kind on the windshield.
75 mph speed limit and speeding is not an offense that give you points on your license.

crkyolfrt

True enough, but I think the reason was camouflaged due to a coincidence in timing and technology that allowed greater FE potential. That and the fact that few people actually *know* what their FE is

I 'think' I have found a new stn that simply has no labels at the pumps indicating any ethanol and pay a little bit more there, than the other place I usually fuel which pays bonus points at CTC where I would use them as cash. The better mileage I am getting more than covers those bonus points at the other place. The reason I say 'think' is because I have been aware of so many joints here that RIP YOU OFF by not delivering ANYWHERE NEAR the proper gallonage. So that combined with the fact that most of my work this year so far is quite close to home so have not had to fuel often enough given the varied conditions to be certain of the exact mpg perk I am getting on what I think is no ethanol. These varied conditions involved, are either tons of A/C or practically non at all. Some are trailer trips and some aren't. Some have had too much city mixed with hwy to get a definitive number. But I 'think' I'm getting at least 2 - 3 mpg better, and that is impressive due to the relatively poor mileage I get all around. A stick AWD CRV, so usally high 20's. And there's sorta my indicator...I'm seeing low 30's more easily now and the only difference is the new Shell stn I'm using. I always try to stick to a pump that seems to deliver what I paid for. Last week I fueled a 15 litre can and the pump showed 15.59 litres at the 15 litre mark. While that is still a 65¢ rip off, that is so much better than the crooks across the street at At The Pumps where it has said as much as 16.8 frig litres at the same mark! The so and so crooks..

I suspect you guys get much much MUCH closer to an actual gallon that you pay for in the US than we do in Cda. Not much one loan voice can do about it here. I know cuz I have tried.

FWIW, I do know of other Shell's in the area that have no ethanol...(found them on the site Steve posted half a year ago), but still are not close to where I drive so driving to them specifically to escape ethanol, would use more fuel than the savings, so this new stn is welcome. (corrosive ramifications of ethanol use, notwithstanding). Come this winter I hope to have more conclusive numbers.

ezshift5

...the corrosive ethanol factor nonwithstanding, another diesel attestation would be the MPG average for the TDI JSW 6M - the one in my garage alongside a nifty Accord 6M coupe - per Fuelly.com is 44.6. + we won't even mention is has more torque than my revered Gen7 6M coupe.................

It's all good,

ez sends

gagrice

SD sounds like a decent place to retire. And just about the lowest unemployment in the USA. I would want to bail out in the Winter months.

I worked 30+ years with a guy that is retired on a golf course near Brookings. He also bought B20 diesel at the coop for his F250 powerstroke.

ruking1

So given the (presumably) same set of drivers, what mpg does your Honda Accord 6M coupe post (as your VW JSW TDI gets 44.6 + mpg)?

Unrelated to your post and probably off topic. Speaking of the expense of diesels, today's WSJ on pages A8 continuing to page A9, had a full spread over 2 full pages on the .944 cent per mile driven lease 30,000 miles (best I can figure) (excluding tax, title, license,) of a PUG, 13 Porsche 911 Carrera. (MSRP of $94,975) The small print is of course more wordy than probably the whole advertisement.

crkyolfrt

SD sounds too good to be true...what are the drawbacks aside from few job offerings..there must be some??

ruking1

Good hunting and fishing ! ?

stever

Long winters eh? Pretty nice place but you need to avoid the oil boom areas right now. I like the big plains areas with the big skies - it reminds me of Sask. with fewer buffalo jumps.

Been paying attention driving around Chattanooga and the smallest spread between regular and diesel I've seen is .40 cents.

crkyolfrt

I wonder if winter is longer there than here? What longitudinal line are they on? I think they're well south of me at the 45th..

So I finally got some definitive 'local at least' info on the few ethanol free stns in my area. Found out that Shell is mandating an across the board switch to ethanol (10% in 87) on Oct 1st this year. I forgot to get a clarification of whether 91 will be affected too or not? What he said sorta gives me the impression that it too is gonna be downgraded in the BTU dept.

I want my diesel like yesterday. I wonder if I could safely use my old bus diesel in it? I think it has over 3/4 tank and it's a 39 footer so the tank is gonna be what I wonder? 70 gal maybe? What I would do is syphon and examine it all in a clear container before risking it. I think if it looks ok visually, it would be quite safe.

Watched a neat doc on biofuel testing in the extremes over the w/e. They actually had a jet, forget the model, but one of those small really fast ones that fly high..as in waaay up there where it is extra cold...they had heaters on the fuel and it performed well they said. Said it was not slower on the biofuel.

stever

The trick up there is the wind. Roads will be bare going east to west but can have big drifts going north to south, or vice versa.

I wound up taking my old fuel oil to a recycling center up the road when I finally got rid of the tank in my basement. It looked "usable" enough, even though it must have been over a decade or two old. Should have just saved it for Gagrice, lol.

ruking1

No !!!! It is probably NOT a good idea to use your "old diesel fuel". Now some farmer/industrial equipment operator (that has old D2 equipment) might want it and perhaps you can come to terms with him.

However for any newer type D2 equipment using old diesel fuel is almost a guarantee of emissions disaster. H2O is one issue, but the real issue is the sulfur content of 500 ppm to BUNKER OIL (5000+ ppm sulfur !!! I am almost willing to swag that your old bus didn't even have to meet ANY emissions standards.!! Most newer D2 emissions equipment is design to run on ULSD or 15 ppm (nominally delivered @ the pump @ 7 to 10 ppm sulfur.

crkyolfrt

Oh for sure I would check for moisture. I have litmus but I also would use a special water screen funnel. Ya the ULSD is the only thing..but what year did we have that? I think prior to the age of this stuff. This tank would be summer of 2010. Possibly Mar of 2010 but highly unlikely.

dudleyr

Yes there are drawbacks. 2% unemployment can mean it is hard to get things done - everybody is busy. Things can get expensive if you get too close to the oil patch in ND. Since there are almost no trees wind can be huge in a snow storm. You can get a 6" snow and have 6-10' drifts that basicaly fill in the valleys. I have seen drifts going up to the roof of a two storey house after a nice blizzard. Winters can be cold -35 coldest since I have been here and summers can be hot 118 in the shade is the hottest, but those extremes are moderately rare. Always keeps you guessing - foot of snow in September or 70 degrees in December.

If I was a coffee drinker the nearest starbucks is 170 miles away. One factor in not getting a diesel Passat was the dealer was 230 miles away.

But - no income tax and lots of space. 350 miles accross and only 700k people (most of them in the eastern 20 miles).

gagrice

Notice Toyota has dumped gas engines completely in the new Hilux.

The Toyota Hilux Invincible Sport adds chrome hi-bars, and the optional availability of a new hard-top, chrome side bars, new 17" dual-tone alloy wheels and black, full leather seats.

The Toyota Hilux Invincible is available in 8 exterior body colours and with a choice of four powertrains: a 2.5 litre D-4D engine with manual transmission and either 2WD or 4WD, and a 3.0 litre D-4D unit with manual or automatic transmission and 4WD.

The Toyota Hilux Invincible will go on sale throughout Europe in the second half of 2013.

gagrice

I like the Western part of SD around the big Heads. Not interested in seeing snow again.

xwesx

Now, see, why'd you go and do that?! Trying to stir up the natives, again? *cry*

gagrice

That's my job... ;-)

It is annoying that two world class mid sized PU trucks are not sold in this 3rd World country. The Ford T6 is sold everywhere with diesel options, and the new Hilux I am sure is Toyota wanting to keep their market share from getting eaten up by the new Ford.

xwesx

Yeah, that's no joke, either. Those two trucks look so similar; it's ridiculous! I've always thought that midsize crew pickups make for the perfect vehicle for a 1-vehicle family. While vans are, and have always been, my clear favorite, the mid-size p/u is small enough to be easily maneuverable, comfortable for a family of five (speaking 4-door here, mind you), ready for the occasional load in the back, groceries, or whatever, and can even haul a sizable trailer when asked.

Lack of domestic diesel aside, the hiccup (in this country, at least) is the price. When I bought my Forester four years ago, I started by seriously considering a mid-size p/u. But, that was quickly quelled when I was looking at a nearly $10,000 spread in buy-in price, along with a significant penalty to fuel economy. Right there, the utility of the vehicle just couldn't overcome the down side. Had I not needed to take a significant hit in either one of those two areas, I would have considered long and hard before making a decision.

nyccarguy

For ME to buy a diesel car?

Something 4WD or AWD that costs less than $30K

ruking1

Yes, I would like that is a gasser that posts 35+ mpg, has 425 # ft torque and an 8 speed A/T transmission with a 7/8 speed M/T option. Now that would get me to switch back to GASSERS !

nyccarguy

Like I've said before, I'm a diesel fan & would LOVE to make it work for me. My problem is finding one in my price range (under $30K) with AWD or 4WD. I LOVE the 425 lb/ft of torque that BMW's TTD I6 pumps out. And used 2011s will most likely cost the same as the lease buyout on my 2011 328xi when the time comes next year. My problem with buying a 2011 335d with between 30 & 36K miles will be the fact that I'll buy the car & be on the hook for 2 sets of tires. 1 set of all season performance rubber & a set of winter tires. I assume with 425 lb ft of torque, The car will pull from a dead stop in 3rd gear in the snow.

A new VW TDI Golf or GTD would be at my price point, but its FWD & I'd still be on the hook for a set of winter tires.

ruking1

As you probably detected, the post was a tad tongue and cheek. However a TDI Tiquan (this competitive niche) with a sub 30k MSRP will probably not field a TDI. The Porsche "whatever" it will be called, (this competitive product but probably NOT in this price range will probably occupy the space.

gagrice

I was near a Shell with diesel under $4 so opted to fill up. 509 miles on the first tank. Not sure how close to full as the Salesman filled it for us. We also set idling for close to a half hour while he went over the finer points of the Infotainment center. So I was very pleased with 25.15 MPG calculated on the very first tank. Also when you get to quarter of a tank there is still 6+ gallons of reserve. Which means a minimum of 150 miles left.

I wake up thinking of places to drive. Today we went up the coast to a library we had not visited before in Encinitas, CA. Beautiful library that you can sit inside or out looking over the Pacific ocean. Glad I did not lease as I may go over the 12k miles per year.

tifighter

Rumor is that the US will get the awd version of the next Jetta wagon. But it's still a rumor, and no word on price. They can't let BMW have all the fun, you'd think...

dave8697

yesterday at Speedway, RUG 3.15, diesel 3.96, an 81 cent spread at station closest to my house. That takes the 38.5 trip my gasser last gave me up to 48.4 mpg, if you factor the fuel price difference for diesel. I have paid more attention to diesel prices over the last week and the spread averages 50-55 cents. The diesel price right off I-70 is consistently $3.99 but is as low as $3.68 on US-40. The huge distribution centers west of Ind airport access I-70 at that exit so they have a captive diesel audience. $3.15 RUG was a nice change, and matched the prices I see on the Fla trip.

ruking1

Given 18.8 mpg VW T gasser and Gagrice's 25 mpg (using your example prices) , that puts cents per mile driven @ .1675 cents/.1584 cents respectively. If you use (my) 31 mpg VW T TDI that is .1277 cents per mile driven.

gagrice

It would have to be a lot more than 80 cents difference to make a like gasser a better choice. I have never seen 80 cents difference. Must be an East coast thing. Even on my last trip to Indiana the biggest spread was 30 cents. I look forward to some real good mileage on our next trip East. Not worried about fuel prices in the least. Had to kick it a bit today getting into 75 MPH freeway traffic. It sets you back. The Sequoia V8 was not even close to what the Touareg acceleration is. have to be careful or I might get a ticket.

[Deleted User]

I want to live there! I bet no traffic too, especially in comparison to Metro VA/DC/MD, where I live.

SO, the 75 mph speed limit is just a "suggestion", right?

We get taxed to death here, property taxes every year, but at a reduced rate from say back in the mid 90's, when the personal property tax was so high that it frequently was a deal killer for new car purchases.

As far as driving is concerned, there is nowhere that I can even get "true" HWY MPG/FE on my fancy direct injected car. Due to congestion, I average 26 mph, and rarely ever (actually NEVER) achieve even the city rating.

I can't wait to retire back up north. I hate the heat and clogged arteries (both mine and the roads), and my car does too.

BTW, where are our formatting buttons?????

coontie66

Well how about that! I never heard of anyone ever retiring up north as the old joke goes.

stever

My in-laws snowbirded for a decade but when it came time to "finally" retire, they wound up on the shore of Lake Superior instead of keeping their place in Lakeland FL. Not sure it was the wisest decision....

Wait a few weeks or so and the current 80 cent spread will hit parity. Just need a minor oil shock - unfortunately for us gasser drivers, when the spread shrinks, it's always the gas that heads up into diesel price territory.

(The emotorcons are being detailed and we ran out of Collinite Liquid Insulator Wax #845).

gagrice

Didn't I read that Minnesota has the highest or second highest life expectancy in the USA? I have driven more on the clogged arteries of So CA since buying the new diesel SUV. And it is stressful. I can understand anyone wanting to get away from the city stresses. Not sure I would go North though. Although heat and humidity are also bad for your health. North in the Summer and South in the Winter makes sense. While Driving back and forth in a diesel makes the most sense. ;-)

ruking1

Using only the Tahoe prices (resort town, tourista HIGH SEASON? aka absurd pricing? )

RUG $3.79/PUG $3.99/ ULSD $3.89

18.8 mpg = .212 cents
25 mpg =.1556 cents
31 mpg =.1255 cents

(cents per mile driven fuel).

As you know, but others might not, VW T gassers uses PUG. So, per mile driven, gassers COST 26.6% to (my case) 40.8% MORE than a TDI.

This is to IGNORE that gasser (like for like ) uses 32.98% to 64.89% MORE fuel !!!

So to get parity @ 3.99 per gal PUG, ULSD should be app $5.35.

gagrice

Taking my Spring trip to Ohio & Indiana I paid from $3.79 to a low of $2.99 per gallon for RUG. Sequoia averaged 17.04 over the 5473 miles. I am sure that I can average 30 MPG with the Touareg without a problem. If diesel is $4 per gallon average that same trip will cost me $350 less for fuel. Average price paid on the trip was $3.34 per gallon for RUG. Diesel would have to rise up to $5.92 per gallon for fuel to cost as much as it did on our last trip. And even at break even I feel better that I am not destroying the environment burning ethanol.

ruking1

It is really amazing (pc word, disingenuous might be closer) the enviro cons do not post the loss of (MINUS-) mpg and percentage due to ethanol use. So for example on Edmunds.com the EPA difference in (like for like) E85 models are fully 25% GREATER consumption over RUG/PUG, which presumably are 10-15% ethanol. Oxymoronically there are MASSIVE presures for even GREATER percentages USE of ethanol !! RUG/PUG ONLY (NON ethanol) is seldom used as an EPA comparison. When you factor in that diesels are normally 30% better than RUG/PUG only.... those percentages ADD UP !!!! Indeed the real utility for higher diesel prices is to get greater tax revenue and discourage greater percentage ULSD USE !! 95% RUG/PUG to less than 5% diesel CARS is a good real world example of how effective it has been !!!!

gagrice

I am sure the oil companies are not wanting the US to jump on diesel as the EU has. They still have to unload the gas that comes as part of the refining process. I never encourage friends to even test drive diesel vehicles. Someone has to use up all that nasty gas. And you know from experience as I do once you drive a modern diesel vehicle going back to a gasser is not easy. Especially where diesel shines in places that have long up hill grades on high speed interstates. You live in FL and you probably never notice the difference.

ruking1

Indeed !!!

The resultant decrease in use/demand for oil would be almost TOTALLY catastrophic . This would be at the 25% diesel passenger car level in the US market. (we are currently @ 5% with half of that being diesel passenger cars (2.5%)

Even the (current) slight decrease in US markets RUG/PUG consumption (not due much to US market TDI passenger cars) is having catastrophic effects/affects to: Mexico, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Iraq, Russia, China, and African oil producing nations, to name only a few.

Domestically, it is really depressing the ethanol markets. These examples (oil producing countries) are desperate for high to higher prices !!!! Perhaps that is a great reason why the middle eastern" pots" are being relentlessly stirred. Heaven help em when a significant passenger vehicle fleet goes to natural gas.

It might also be a signal when one of the LARGEST US pork producers is being sold to China !! ?? Sell it to em for high to premium prices: let em take the hit in the short term, (5 to 7 years) then buy it back from them? To be fair, long term cattle men are being herded (pun intended) out of the business

Now for US (us- pun intended) with the money printing presses- US dollar being the world wide standard) it is like having the gold/silver standard put back over the top of the new "BLACK GOLD" standard. It is getting FAR harder to hide "the happy days"!! It might be one of the reasons why most of the world wants WW oil prices to be disconnected from the US denomination DOLLAR.

It makes $1.85 per gal D2 sound like I am waxing nostalgic for the good ole days.

dave8697

What displacement was your Sequoia? I have a 2.4 6A and a 4.8 4X4 auto and the gas mileage is so close to the 2:1 displacement ratio. The 38.5 trip in the car would be 19.25 when halved, and the last trip the truck did about 18.5. The typical commute is also 33 car, 17 truck. Very close to 2:1, so it all seems to boil down to engine displacement. Truck has 30 k miles, car has 35k. Can't blame the truck with poor efficiency considering it has twice the engine displacement, weighs much more, 2 less gears, 4WD, and much worse shape, worse frontal area, and is geared to tow.

ruking1

I am not sure how you came to the conclusion he (anyone) is blaming the truck !? In past posts, I also have used a 4,800 # TLC getting 14 to 17 mpg as an example. I have also cited a HEAVIER CUV (4,975#'s) with the difference being a 3.0 L TDI engine and 8 speed A/T with a much better performance band AND getting 31 mpg or 106% better mpg (range 29 to 39.8 mpg) !?

Now, are you saying you should have been able to get a 3.0 L gasser engine and 8 speed A/T in your truck AND with that being done, it would equal TDI mpg and performance figures? Now, I doubt that (for any one of a lot of reasons) , but don't want to put words in your mouth. Incidently towing compacity for the VW Touareg is @ 7500#'s.

Indeed, let me ask the fantasy question. IF I could get a 3.0 L gasser engine (whatever speed transmission) meeting or exceeding TDI performance parameters, putting out 406 # ft of torque and getting a range of 29 to 39.8 mpg,, etc, why would I or any one else i(n my/their right minds) want to pay premiums, both for fuel and acquisition costs of the TDI over gasser ??? Not only that, the price per mile driven would be CHEAPER than diesel !!!

gagrice

My Sequoia was a 4.7L V8 4X4 with 5 speed auto. I have only gotten 19+ MPG twice and that was using NM gas. Never with CA designer gas. 15.5 was the best I could average using CA gas. You have to remember our freeways move on average 70-75 MPH. You get run over at 65 MPH. I move with the flow to avoid causing road rage. The curb weight of the Touareg is only 300lbs less than the Sequoia. So I consider 40% better mileage a HUGE plus. With a possible 50% or more increase in miles. Not to mention driving cross country with only two stops for fuel.

ruking1

..."I have only gotten 19+ MPG twice and that was using NM gas. Never with CA designer gas. 15.5 was the best I could average using CA gas."

Now the assumption (for me) here is that NM gas does not use ethanol. So on a practical and/or real life level CA (designer/boutique fuels) ethanol percentages makes RUG/PUG use 22.5% more fuel !!! ???

Wow !!!! enviro cons say they want us to use LESS fuel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gagrice

Wouldn't you rather have a PU truck with a 3.0L Diesel and 8 speed that can get you an honest 30 MPG instead of 18.5 MPG? Won't be long now. And rated for REAL green B20 diesel.

And so we present to you the 2014 Ram lineup, with the biggest change being the addition of an optional 3.0-liter EcoDiesel engine for the 1500 model (the same powerplant that's gotten rave reviews in the latest Jeep Grand Cherokee) and the proliferation of the eight-speed TorqueFlite transmission across the entire model range. That engine boasts 420 pound-feet of torque to go along with its 240 horsepower, which means it ought to be able to tow just about anything the 5.7-liter Hemi can, while returning significantly better fuel mileage.

http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/ecodiesel/

gagrice

I think the actual mandate is for 2.9% ethanol. I am thinking that some places like NM and CO do not have the ethanol readily available and cheap. Even though the farmers are still subsidized the oil companies do not get that 50 cents a gallon anymore. Unless the state forces higher ethanol for emissions like CA does, they may only use what is forced by Federal law. Either way it is good riddance for me. Now all I have to do is get a diesel PU truck. Probably just keep the Nissan for odd jobs hauling. It was my main go to vehicle up until now.

ruking1

For your sake (if the compact truck is the size of choice) I hope someone like Nissan does come with the TDI option.

ruking1

Most full sized PU trucks have parking space issues even @ Home Depot/Lowes/ACE and whatever local hardware stores there are !!

gagrice

Very true. PU trucks are behemoths compared to days gone by. Thinking about my 1970 Datsun PU. Now that was small. Not as small as the VW Rabbit PU. But a great size for 99% of what a contractor needs. I built three homes in MN using a 1976 Datsun PU truck. You could put a heck of a load in that little PU.

The rest of the World cannot be wrong buying midsized PU trucks with diesel engines getting 35 MPG or better. It proves we are the fuel gluttons of the World.

ruking1

Not that I am terribly curious, but it does beg the question: why no E 85 to 100% ethanol vehicles ?

Funny no mention in the C02 gasser generated and non sequester in the ethanol fermentation and distillation process

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ethanol.shtml

and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

So burning MORE results in less emissions !!!!

gagrice

I think in Brazil all vehicles have to be E100 rated. Unless of course they are diesel. I think Fiat and VW are big sellers there.