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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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i might give the Cruze to my daughter in a year or so... it's got 47500 miles now.
as for the diesels, the torquiest automatic must be one of the HD diesel pickups. those aren't really in the running for me.
one of my requirements is wagon or suv formfactor. or minivan i suppose! diesel is not a requirement but i'd sure prefer it. If a BMW diesel wagon is available with a stick that might be real tough to resist!
gagrice your point about suv's better handling meaning it is safer in emergency than most cars - that is valid only if one is lucky enough to stay on pavement. when off-pavement becomes involved in an accident, SUVs are much more dangerous than cars, especially in single-vehicle accidents.
Diesel truck drivers are an even bigger image issue than smoky 1975 MB diesels.
For me, camping is a Motel 6 :shades:
This past week I have been slugging gravel by hand in the ATV box and then shovellign out and raking...tried one of those OFF motorized fan things...the cartridges are not cheap but ya know...I'm a believer now...6.99 for 2 x 11 hours packs, whicch you can turn off and reuse the next day or week till the liquid bubble scale says you're out. If you are moving around (shoveling) they work the best. Still have to wear a hat to protect the huge heat comin' off my bald head..those buggers know where the really choice blood is.. :shades: :sick:
So, where's our newest diesel owner? Out trying to burn that first tank up? Could take a while.
I only have 204 miles on this tank and it still shows more than 3/4 full. And 540 miles left. I do love driving it after the PU, LS and Sequoia.
The damn things follow the exhaust all the way up my hill and are fierce around the back of car as you unload. Then they just try to draft you as you move stuff inside. Getting home with the sun up by some reserve helps a lot here. Not all years are as bad as this particular one has been tho..thank goodness..
I think it is so cool on many fronts, re Gary and his new oil burner ute..and made even more successful is that his wife is extra onboard. Very enjoyable scene for us all to witness.. even if it has to be vicariously...
I've never been one to segregate my online friends and vicarious experiences on some fav forums, from my other life friends were I can go and share a handshake or a hug after a couple hours drive or less. They are both very real even if the online ones are a little harder to connect with physically.
I would be interested in your source for that claim. I found this on the IIHS site. They consider the Touareg a Top Safety Choice in the Large SUV segment. The % of deaths due to single vehicle accidents where rollover occurs is very low. The odds are much higher you will be involved with another vehicle and the pendulum swings far in favor of the heavier vehicles. I will take my chances in the Touareg over any sedan sold.
Don't compare ratings across vehicle size groups because size and weight influence occupant protection in serious crashes. Larger, heavier vehicles generally afford more protection than smaller, lighter ones. Models that earn Top Safety Pick+ or Top Safety Pick are the best vehicle choices for safety within size categories, but this doesn't mean a small car that's a Top Safety Pick+ or Top Safety Pick affords more protection than a bigger car that doesn't earn the award.
http://www.iihs.org/research/fatality.aspx?topicName=Passenger-Vehicles&year=201- 1#Rollover
I appreciate my online friends a lot. I know we don't all always agree. But that is life. The miles do make personal contact difficult. I know some here meet from time to time. Maybe some day I will map out my online friends in conjunction with Diners, Drive-ins and Dives and share a meal with as many as possible.
RIP Tidester.
All these years and I've only managed to meet two TownHallers in the flesh. Shoot, I've worked with KCRam for over a decade and never met him in the flesh.
Of course, KC does drive a diesel and you know how that goes.
The stats may have changed a bit since then but the laws of physics haven't so that means SUVs are still more dangerous than cars in single-vehicle-accidents - especially when the single-vehicle ends up off-pavement, which is common enough to be a serious concern...
Your IIHS metric compares large SUVs with other large SUVs rather than with cars, so that would be another discussion/comparison.
As for odds of what type of accident, whatever. They are accidents, thus they are not always avoidable, and we can't know what 'type' they will be in advance.
It's good to know one's vehicles' limitations and strengths in various emergency situations or accidents.
A car is much less likely to flip than an SUV in single-vehicle-goes-off-pavement accident.
everything's a tradeoff, man.
so anyway, hmm, i wonder if any of those 0% 2013 2-reg TDIs are available locally... owner of the new/local satellite-dealership drives one - he'd probably let me test drive it and buy it as a 'demo' or whatev. :}
That is the imperative. I would say most of the rollover accidents I have witnessed was with PU/SUV type vehicles. Since they are my vehicle of choice I am cautious especially on ice and slick surfaces. Weight and top heaviness are not an advantage in those cases.
i wonder if any of those 0% 2013 2-reg TDIs are available locally
My San Diego dealer had my color choice trucked from AZ. They are limited. Seems most are on the Eastern side of the Rockies. I used all the vehicle sales web sites to locate vehicles. It was interesting after sending out emails how many dealers contacted me with the same vehicle. Then when I went with the dealer that treated us right on the demo ride, that Los Angeles vehicle turned out to be totaled either on a test drive or stolen. Heard both stories. So our dealer expanded the search and found what we wanted in AZ. They did not add anything for trucking it to San Diego. And it only had 36 miles on the odometer.
So that limits us on our purchase of a vehicle. I expect with little effort to double my miles per gallon with the Touareg TDI. While actually upgrading the comfort, performance and handling by several levels over the plush Sequoia limited. So you are absolutely correct. I have no desire to even look at the Prius. If Toyota was to offer a small diesel PU I would consider that to replace the Frontier which I like for its purpose. It is still a fuel waster as are all gas engines. We were duped by Rockefeller over 100 years ago into using his waste product, Gasoline. Never again for me.
I say to each their own: applications, wants, needs, desires, etc, but a VW JSW TDI is not only THOUSANDS cheaper (MINUS -$4,500) than the Prius V but is in the ball park both for cargo space and mpg. On the highway where you say you want it mpg is better in the JSW TDI EPA H +2 mpg better. My swag is resale value between the two is a toss up. Edmunds.com says that if one is attracted to BLAND handling, Prius V is the ticket !
during my run down to Fla last month, gas got down to $3.09 in SC and Ga.
Right now, gas is $3.39 here and diesel is $3.99, like it always is.
My 3.50 to $4 price difference is a very fair comparison over several years for my locale. If I were an KY, TN, SC, or GA resident, the difference would be closer to 75 cents.
Edmunds has the 2013 Passat 2 liter TDI with AUTO as 30/40
and has the 2014 Malibu 2.5 AUTO as ??/35
I currently drive a '10 Malibu that is rated 23/32 and it gives me a running avg of over 30. So I personally don't pay much attention to city numbers as my combined is much closer to the hwy number, and trips easily exceed the hwy number.
Others tried to compare a Malibu auto trans combined number with a TDI hwy number from a manual trans. That's not how I would do a comparison.
Bottom line is the fuel price difference eats away all the potential savings from a car with a questionable life turbo for the non-city emphasis driver in my locale. 35 mpg on RUG equates to 40 mpg in a diesel when RUG is $3.50. In areas where the gas to diesel price difference is less than 50 cents, the diesel edges out the gasser, but with a trade from HP advantage for the gasser to Torque advantage for the diesel.
So if you are happy with a 10 Malibu GASSER, what are you doing on a diesel thread? No monthly payments is a very powerful incentive !! Even more so with a paid TDI !!!
You admit that you really do NOT know how you would do (mpg wise) with a same year (competitor) diesel ! Also, you are ignoring what same model RUG/PUG vs diesel does and is. You can go to fuelly.com or fueleconomy.gov for real world postings. It is the sound of one hand clapping ? Diesels easily exceed the mpg highway number and better than gassers ! Fuelly lists the 12 VW T gasser @18.8 mpg. fuel economy lists 28 mpg for VW T TDI, that is 49% BETTER fuel mileage ! ? Indeed better than hybrids, which give gassers app a 20% boost! I can see why you do not use math (% better/worse mpg, cents per mile driven) in your opinions.
I use the following to calculate the fuel efficiency cost for comparing any type of vehicle:
1. Use the fuel cost figure; $4.00 for diesel and $3.50 for gasoline, for example
2. Use the true fuel economy figure as the second part of calculation of cost of fuel per mile
If I get 40 miles per gallon in my diesel, then it costs me 10 cents of fuel per mile to operate (400 cents/40 miles). If I get 34 miles per gallon for my gasoline powered car, then I am paying (350 cents/34) or 10.29 cents per mile for fuel.
Whwn using this type of calculation for the cost of fuel per mile and real world economy averages, anyone can find the true cost of fuel of any car for any typoe of driver and it is based upon real world numbers, not some EPA bureaucratic system which overates the hybred and gasoline powered modesl and typically underrates the diesel.
I offer my true world example. I have owned a 2013 Passat SEL Premium TDI for three months. My cumulative economy figures are 45.2 miles per gallon for the first 11,000 miles and the average for the fuel has been 3.72/gallon which equates to 8.23 cents per mile for my fuel cost. My fiance has a 2013 KIA Optima SXL, a very beautiful car to say the least, and she has averaged 29.8 MPG for her combined fuel economy for the first 8,000 miles with an average of $3.35/gallon which equates to 11.24 cents per mile for fuel. Real world data.
Total cost of fuel per car is now $905.30 for diesel and $899.32 for the gasoline powered car. Almost equal cost for 3000 miles less travel.
Both cars stickered for the same amount. I chose the diesel Passat because of the driving I do and the car features. My fiance chose the Kia Optioma SXL as it has the performance, styling, and features shge was looking for. Both serve different purposes and each suit our individual personalities and we both love our cars. If the Kia offered the same economy and operating characteristics as my Passat, I would have bought the Kia.
Boringly substanceless and quite typical troll behaviour.
Sorry I wasted my time giving him the benefit of the doubt..never again..
Wasn't going to, but the deciding factor was maybe...just maybe someone else might make use of the info who may be considering a diesel.
She drives a Sienna minivan and usually gets mid 20's on trips. I took it for a 400 mile trip and got 31.8 mpg. Not too bad for something that has 13 cubic ft more cargo space than a Suburban.
No idea why there is no effort for some kind of high mpg minivan. Diesel or hybrid.
That mileage that you mentioned is as high as they are willing to buildi into that platform. First thing that comes to mind is that the majority of that demographic would not be willing to spring for the extra cost they would want for any "upgrades".
I like diesels because their response (torque) is so nice, but if I can't get one with a manual transmission, all bets are off. Plus which, when I began whining about the lack of proper diesels in North America (relative to Europe and the rest of the world), D2 was significantly less expensive than gasoline. That was back in 2001.
Times change.
Another is I drive her TDI lot faster than my wife, yet I can easily get what she gets mpg wise. So to me, another benefit of the TDI.
Don't go easy on it...take the entire family loaded, and better still, hook a trailer to your vehicle of choosing. Don't baby it. Head for the mountains, run it 75 mph+. Make sure the trailer you choose has a gross weight of at least 3000lb.
and
Diesels deliver doing work. Doing work include other basic real world encounters...go ahead and be heavy footed...watch for tickets tho of course...sit in stop and go traffic for 100 minutes just crawling along with the A/C blasting. Go ahead and plant the throttle at times so that you grab that lane that appears to be moving better than the one you're in...like I say, do anything but go out of your way to try to get good mileage...and come back convinced, that sometimes solutions are out there and more available to you than even you thought.
...or better still have your wife read them. She is exactly the type of driver that would benefit the absolute most from driving a diesel, because all those fuel guzzling traits that she practices, a diesel takes in stride with greater superiority and efficiency than ANY OTHER FORM OF VEHICLE OUT THERE, be it gas, hybrid, electric, NG, you name it..
This is not a diesel thread..It is a thread for those who don't drive a diesel, asking what it would take for them to switch.
which is then promptly ignored if the reply makes too much sense, or cause gas fumed eyes to glaze over
Since I posted yesterday, I drove past a station with a 60 cent difference and one with a 40 cent difference, validating my 50 cent average difference.
I knew this was going to turn into a claim of diesels getting better mileage than they are rated and a claim that gassers don't. Something very hard to prove. I took a photo of my DIC reading 667 mile range after a fill-up. A 495 range is typical doing work commutes. The 2013 Edmunds TDI Passat road test article touts a best of 617 range reading and 42.x mpg best tank ever. I don't know if it was a manual or an automatic, which is a 3 mpg difference.
Regular Mid Premium Diesel E85
Current Avg. $3.600 $3.771 $3.934 $3.885 $2.875
Our average in the largest population state is less than 10 cents difference. If you are happy with gas engine screaming to get up the slightest little hill I say more power to you. You are not going to convince those of US that KNOW the difference. There is NO WAY the driving experience with a 4 banger gas engine compares to a 4 cylinder diesel. It is a dreamer with no real experience that thinks otherwise. Even if it cost more to drive a diesel SUV than a gasser which it does not, I would pay the difference for the power when you need it and the longer range. My best tank on the Sequoia was under 400 miles with a 25 gallon tank. I expect to get near twice that with the Touareg TDI. Some things money can buy. Comfort, power, range, towing, handling not to mention the latest electronic gadgetry.
I can see how some say it isn't the best if they are comparing a modern 4 and don't have a heavy car or torque desires, are not a driver who always hypermiles it, or are comparing a premium car that requires PUG. In those cases, diesel wins. Something else I thought of too - thinking back on a memory, if there is ever a gas shortage, chances are diesel will be easier to find. I remember back in 06 when there was a major storm here, many places had no power for a week, but my local area had it. There were lines at the gas stations, and some ran out. But they always had diesel.
Speaking of diesels, I've been reading a lot of positive claims about the 3.0 TDi coming to the US in the Audi A6 and A7. I wonder if they will lease as competitively as the competition.
You will notice the posters are not really interested in diesel vehicles. They are trying to justify their gas vehicles. When there is NO WAY they can compare them. I say name one SUV that goes 0-60 in 6.9 seconds gets 32 MPG on the Highway and is rated to tow 7700 lbs. Plus holds its own off road. NO GASSER or hybrid ON THE PLANET can compare.
So then they want to compare a Accord 4 banger to a Passat TDI. I have driven both. And it is night and day.
Same thing happened in Katrina big time. Just an added benefit that hopefully you don't need to use.
So why you ignore a like model VW T gasser @ 18.8 vs a VW T TDI @ 28 mpg (REAL WORLD) is more than apparent and transparent. It does not fit your fictional narrative.
But truly if you are happy with your 10 Malibu gasser that is truly ok with folks like me. Remember that we know that 95% of the passenger vehicle fleet is RUG/PUG.
Most "diesel folks" (like me, Gagrice, Fintail, etc, etc.) either have had, still have, will continue to have... GASSERS. So it is not like we are clueless about RUG/PUG as you would have the audience believe. In fact, Garice and I, to cite just two examples have more experiences in GASSERS than diesels. Indeed you have defacto admitted you have no real world experiences with passenger diesels.
So even using your prices 18.8 mpg /$3.50= .186 cents vs .1429 cents per mile driven for 30% more per mile driven for gassers. This is not even to mention that this (like for like) gasser uses 49% more fuel !!!! I think you give up credibility when you ignore factors such as like for like, or try to say we are biased in favor of diesels and clueless about RUG/PUG, when YOU have no little to NO experiences with diesels.
If a person was really here to garner info to help them decide if diesel was for them, they should at least, (even the more dense of them) consider for a moment that if gasoline was such a superior fuel to motivate our vehicles, then why is it not used any longer in heavy trucks and locomotive duty?
Anyone who isn't a believer, and makes no effort to hide their indifference, GOOD! Makes me happy to know that they are costing themselves more money than they need to. All the power to them.. And makes for a shorter line when I'm ready to fuel up.
I still acknowledge certain uses for gasoline. It is basically the very best fuel to mix with oil in a 2 stroke chainsaw, and any other small engine that has to have high rpm, good hp for its size, and weigh as little as possible for its power to weight ratio for a job if carried on one's person.
But when there is work to be done (and I am including aggressive or ignorant driving styles in a work group) cuz in order to get anywhere close to a gas job's EPA, they have to be driven not only with ignorance left on the shelf, but driven deliberately gently. Something even idiots don't have to do with a turbo diesel yet still be rewarded with an easy 30% mpg gain. And even using the wildest price example difference of diesel to gas, it's never been 30% more per gallon. The math deficiencies shown on this thread by some are truly discouraging to witness. Sure hope their kids aren't asking for help with numbers..
I even still split about half or a little more of the blocks by hand. Due to my screwed back tho I did end up buying a splitter for the more gnarly stuff.
Now for 4 ft diameter trees, I think its now to long since been beyond my pay grade.
I've had very limited experience with diesel cars .. my folks owned a '72 MB 220D when I was in HS in the early 80's. All the things that I suspect most folks remember about diesels were true about that car. Glow plugs ... tailpipe smoke ... poor acceleration ... dirty. Mom hated it pretty much every time she drove it. Was traded in for a used Toyota Celica (!).
In my opinion, I think there is room in the market for gasoline powered vehicles, diesel and hybrids (and pure electric, for that matter). I think it comes down to how you use your vehicle.
Most folks go gasser simply because that's what they are conditioned to buy. There is the most choice in vehicle size and function, and it's hard to argue with 100+ years of history.
Diesel's have amazing range, and are probably great for people who take long road trips. Around town, the 30 MPG achieved by the VW TDI's is matched by any number of similar sized cars (Mazda 3, for example). If I don't take any long trips, I don't see any real distinction between a Golf TDI and the 3 - from a propulsion or economy point of view.
Hybrids and EVs also make more sense around town or (in the case of EVs) for folks who know their driving habits and aren't afraid of range anxiety.
I work from home during the day and deliver pizzas part time 3 or 4 nights a week. The number of miles I drive in a shift can vary, so a pure EV wouldn't work for me. But, something like a plug-in Prius or Volt would work well, since I know I can use the battery for the first xxx miles, then have the ICE recharge while I'm driving. However, it's hard to justify $30K (plus or minus) for an extended range car like that.
In fact, I find it hard to justify even $20K for an Insight or Prius C, since my '06 ION with 93K miles gets me around 24-26 MPG in mostly city driving. Doubling my mileage to 50 with the Prius C still doesn't make economic sense when I factor in the purchase price.
EDIT - with all that said, I'm very interested in the new VW GTD that is planned to come to the states. Decent mileage, utility and fun to drive - a hard combo to beat. Hope that the price premium over the GTI isn't too much to deal with.
Any suggestions? What diesel has as much room as a Sienna - nothing comes even close. A toureg for example has 64 ft3 of space behind the front two seats and the Sienna has 150. To top it off it costs $25,000 more than a Sienna (with the diesel engine). How long would that take to pay off for 5 extra mpg (being generous there).
If there was a roomy efficient diesel it would be on the list. Mazda may put the new 4 cyl diesel in the new CX-9. That would be smaller that a Sienna, but might work.
I too am excited to see the new GTD.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD