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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    Well no. As I said in the post above, VW really needs to work on how it is perceived in the US markets. Due to cultural and I am sure a plethora of other reasons, they really did not understand the scope and depth of how they TRASHED themselves. Or, ... if they did, they didn't care. So using that rule of thumb, outstanding relations will lead 3 people to say positive things , and poor relations will lead 10 folks to trash talk,. SO... it is easily an uphill battle.

    TDI's 2.0 L and 3.0 L are literally bullet proof and proven for @ least a decade. Turbos are and have been long since proven and made by Garrett, the parent being Honeywell both US companies. Again, an arcane factoid, but turbos are better suited to diesels than gassers.

    So while I say I threw the dice in getting a 2003 VW, it really was more of a statisitical projection analysis and critical measurement. Upshot are the projections fulfilled in the real world. I would not get the second and third product, if I were not convinced of its durability, quality, reliability and value. It even has price performance thrown in for great measure. Believe me, I was a heartbeat away for app 5 years (and 100,000 miles ) from "junking" the 03 TDI: just BREATHE on me a reason. The additional thing is that for 2 of those years, I could literally sell the car for what I paid for it NEW !! As I have posted, it is rapidly coming up on 200,000 miles and I do not see 500,000 miles as unreasonable.

    Now, VW has taken a series of initiatives, but this starts to become arcane to consumers (folks shopping for any oem's car)

    So for the opposite reason, I would not buy a Mazda the (new) Skyactiv engines or what ever it is called: or to me, what the HELL does that mean? as it needs 5 to 10 years in the real US world for me to even consider it. Before that, they had less than efficient engines, albeit even if they were fun to drive.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Mazda started using DI a while ago, though. Not sure which model had it first, may have been the MazdaSpeed6 (launched in 2005), then the CX7, then the Speed3.

    So they have quite a bit of experience with DI.

    SkyActiv drops the turbo but if anything that makes them less complex.

    EcoBoost is more recent, I think. GM had DI in a lot of their SS models a while ago, also.

    My concern with durability relates to the EGR system. With DI only, the intake path doesn't get cleaned out by the detergents in fresh fuel.

    Toyota's port and direct injection addresses that but they have stupidly limited that engine to Lexus for now.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited September 2012
    you have to drive it in a behavioral changed way and attitude.

    It's nice having more HP and torque in my current minivan than my last one did, but I don't think I drive it (or the wagon) any different. I suppose I could get a bit extreme with a hybrid but I'm rarely a leadfoot anyway and don't have to replace my brakes all that often either.

    I've always been a first mile creeper in my neighborhoods, so I'd enjoy limping a hybrid along in electric-only mode until I got to the collector streets.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    That's how most normal people drive, but I don't think most Edmunds members are normal. :D
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    I dunno, seems like most people race from light to light.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    Since this is a diesel thread, I am also pretty happy with VW "sub parts" (non diesel). @ 178,000 miles, there are more than half of materials left on the oem brake pads and rotors (03 Jetta TDI). The swag is for 250,000 miles (actually plus as I would not be surprised @ 300,000+ miles) on the oem brake pads and rotors. VW uses sub vendors such as Textar, Pagid, ATE.

    On a Civic, using the same drivers, same commute, the front pads and rotors lasted app 118,000 miles.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    ...I think you need to take out your digital hatchet and chop up post #6585 (and the poster). Looks like even Edmund's is susceptible to SPAM.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited September 2012
    The Chinese ones do slip in here now and then for a few hours. It just looks like us hosts never sleep, but sometimes we do. ;)

    Probably get more of them as their economy slows and people get more desperate for work. And we know that China's economy is slowing because....

    Dying diesel sales say China's engine slowing (Reuters)

    There's a correlation for you - more spam means cheaper diesel prices. :)
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited September 2012
    That's a masterful connection of dots. Unfortunately, I don't think there are any gas stations in DC's Chinatown area or I'd look to fill up on cheap diesel. ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    Interesting factoid:

    As previously posted ULSD for diesel passenger vehicle fleet has a mandatory 30 ppm (nominally delivered @ 5 to 10 ppm). In US refineries LSD is produced (500 ppm to 140 ppm CA) and is EXPORTED. They get TAX credits for export (dont know where it is reflected on a P/L exactly, but in passing), I have read it is .50 cents per gal. On the consumer side .50 per gal charged to consumers (RUG/PUG and ULSD) This is in ADDITION to states fuel taxation. One can take a look at any fuel taxation chart to see how the states treat this.

    As bad as our balance of payments are (with China) , LSD is one avenue used to tip the scales. I am sure the export of coal via Warren Buffets choo choo train investments, ;) are another huge part of that effort. This China coal link was ramrodded through during the Clinton administration. I am sure H Clinton being the S of S is purely coincidental in making sure that policy continues. The repubs certainly did NOT attempt to change it.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    So do you want egg rolls wid that? :P
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    more than half of materials left on the oem brake pads and rotors

    What, do you coast to a stop at every light or something?

    Just teasing.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    What lights? ;)

    On a more serious side, the compare and contrast on consumables (VW vs Honda) is pretty stark. On the Civic @ 118,000 miles I opted for the oem (Aisin) brake pads. My ace Honda mechanic told me either oem rotors or Brembo's . So just for the fun of it I opted for Brembo's.

    Now I am NOT disappointed, as Honda from the git go "coded" me out on the faster wear consumables issue. Another example: Honda tires 74,300 miles, Jetta TDI tires 112,300 miles.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited September 2012
    do you want egg rolls

    No, gimme some biodiesel. Will smell like fried rice though not French fries. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    Actually this more good natured bantering caused me to wax more philosophic. If all we do legislate and regulate for TDI's that are specified to run on UP to B100, they could delete the .50 cent charge to consumers (oh yes, I know there is no support for .50 cent per gal cheaper RUG/PUG/ULSD now is there?), export more LSD (balance the payments even more) and actually take huge bites out of existing AND potential process waste streams. They could also get creative and see whatever waste streams could be adapted.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    No stop lights would explain the lack of empathy for hybrids. ;)

    118k miles for brake pads seems fine to me, no?

    I'm not sure if I'd want to depend on 10 year old brake pads ... I guess they don't dry out like tires do, but how much do new ones cost? For my NA Miata I paid $17 for a pair of rear pads. LOL
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    The operational parameters has long been known to me (2002/2003 time frame when the 2003 Prius was in the running for the commute vehicle). Per 100,000 miles gal consumption would be 2,222 (03 Prius), 2105 (04 Prius), 2632 (04 Civic) GAL saved should be obvious. However it would have taken me 12,000 to 13,000 more to save those gals. ($2,155. @ 4.09 per gal rug)

    So yes if one finds oneself in the sweet spot for the Prius's electrical operation, One would be less than thrifty NOT to get it. A dumb example would be a pizza delivery driver based in Georgetown. (yeah like one could even live there)

    10 to 12 MY's later, you really have to wonder why it took so long for inner city taxi cab fleets ( NYC/DC area) to embrace hybrid vehicles. Keep in mind they can write off ALL costs and to boot even probably get tax credits. Speaks volumes.

    Other than those parameters, one is obliged to flog a 1.5 to 1.8 L engine. The 1.9/2.0 L TDI is WAY more fun !

    It would be interesting to compare how long Prius pads and rotors do last.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Regenerative braking should make them last longer than they otherwise would, if anything.

    That could be offset by the heavy batteries, though.

    There's a cab company in DC called EnviroCab and they tend to use Camry hybrids. Prius would make more sense IMHO.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited September 2012
    Honda tires 74,300 miles, Jetta TDI tires 112,300 miles.

    And to think that at the Porsche driving event that I attended last week, they replace the tires on the 911S's after the equivalent of about 100 miles on the track. At a cost of $2,000 per set. Better them than me.

    I could get 50,000 miles per set out of my old Maxima tires by rotating every 5,000-10,000 miles, but these were 15" H-rated 60 series tires and 90% of my driving back then was smooth highway. I don't think there is a car - or even SUV - that I've looked at recently that isn't down to 50 series tires or lower. Our X5d has 19" 255/50 that are estimated by BMW dealer to last 30-35k miles. We will likely replace them with non-run flats that should last a little longer.

    I'm not sure that brake pads that last 300k miles or tires that last 100k miles are going to give you stopping distances or handling that I consider acceptable. But they are "thrifty".
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    http://green.autoblog.com/2012/09/26/vw-golf-bluemotion-concept-is-a-diesel-look- er-worth-73-5-mpg/

    Very nice update, this is the best looking of the recent generations, IMHO.

    Wonder how the EPA will score it? 15% better than the old one, they say.

    It's lighter than older Golfs, has stop-start with battery regen

    Valuable updates.

    13.2 gallon tank is a step back, currently it's 14.5 gallons. BOO!

    Still beats the 11.9 of the Prius and measly 8.9 gallons in the Prius C.

    Now that's the 1.6l euro model, I wonder what we will get? And will the gas tank be upsized for the US?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    This is bringing me farther back than I had planned, but I wonder again why hybrids and plug ins have not found applications in flight line operations.

    I used to over see 2 (16 hours and 3 (24 hours) shift operations where the majority of vehicles saw EXTENSIVE idling TO almost constant on and off, start stop, stop start and repeat endlessly. Of course both operations were in extremes of weather 90 degrees/90% humidity to - whatever to better than that windchill. So A/C and heaters became important.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Cabs have to accomodate a range of body sizes and shapes in the back seat. I don't think a Prius would qualify, given the expanding waistlines and fat heads in the DC area.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    Ah job security for the Taylor's. :P

    Truly it makes me wonder what they will be able to do with it !! Man if they can post 84 mpg with a 43 mpg EPA Passat TDI ......
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    Not to toot CA's horn, but we have some of THE WORST highways in the nation !!! (thank you, thank you very much)

    Actually dry grip is better with less tread. Your racing/track experiences should tell you that. Now if you are doing that track stuff in the rain/sleet and snow, the opposite is true.

    If I was tracking anything, I'd have a slew of bench stock type things to include multiple sets of tires, brake pads and rotors, etc.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,942
    I just can't fathom why we wouldn't get that here. Quicker, nicer, and more fuel efficient than a Prius. Why wouldn't it be a homerun? :confuse:

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    expanding waistlines and fat heads in the DC area

    So true! :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I wonder as well. Maybe VW is afraid the smaller TDI would only cannibalize the bigger (more expensive) one.

    Paris show is on so lots of diesel love coming....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/27/2014-mazad6-paris-2012/

    Wagon is handsome.

    They say 43mpg for the 173hp 2.2l diesel, and no urea injection needed.

    D-segment so that would be a Passat alternative. DSG Passat is rated 30/40 here, manual a bit higher. So the Mazda at least ties it, if they meant EPA mpg.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/27/volkswagen-golf-paris-2012/

    1.8T gasser. Wonder if they will tune that to run on 87 octane, now that Ford, Hyundai, GM, and others have tuned them that way?

    TDI still a 2l, they say.

    220 lbs lighter is great news!
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited September 2012
    Rest assured, the US market versions are almost always DUMBED down. Now if they just got rid of those gimpy over sized wheels. I am sure the "customizers" are trying to find a way to put 25 in rims on em. ;)

    Mazda has been threatening for years to bring US market diesels. Ah, it/they is/are still not here.

    But then on the other hand the current MY VW Golf lists 19 options or variants. WOW ! MSRP goes from 18k to 29.4k. So I would say the 73.5 mpg Golf might have a more inside track. Still no GTD !? :lemon:
This discussion has been closed.