What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

Glad you agree that we both have fuel gauges ! You seemed to have been going down the path of reinventing the "wheel".

..."Gals pumped in on the refill doesn't take into account the differences in temp, nozzle trip sensitivity, etc. from the last fill up, especially if you buy from different stations or use different pumps. "...

(Indeed, this might be easily accounted for in the difference between on board computer indications and real world pen and ink calculations. )

Gals consumed is a good metric to know/display, especially when one knows the stated and real capacities and how much one has really put in the tank. Distance remaining is indeed (another) an estimate based on current consumption. Again which may/ not be true.

So there is enough information (for triangulation) to let anyone decide. ( so as to not run out of fuel). I really like to refuel shortly after the (low fuel) lamp/buzzer come-on to take advantage of the (miles) range. VW seems to have set the indicators so one has @ least 100 miles remaining. It would appear that if I had used the "miles estimated remaining, " it would have hit app 818 miles on this past tank. (@ 31 mpg)

In any case, 3/3 fuel buzzer/lamps (VW's in my case) (remain) seem to be very accurate. Two, each with 14.5 gal capacity comes on app 12.1 gals. Another is @ 23 gals (26.4 gal capacity).

Glad to hear you are liking the diesel Cruse.

ruking1

I have probably mentioned this (advantage) before. Fueling closer to M/T lets one operate the car with (ever decreasing) less weight. So IF a gal of ULSD weighs 7.5#'s, 23 gals (what I refueled WITH) = 172.5 #'s. So with the oem's struggling to get EVERY # off, this is an operating "freebee" so to speak.

So a practical example: if I operate a VW T TDI with 1/2 tank (26.4 gal tank/2= 13.2 gals) it will run without 100#'s (@ 31 mpg) for app 410 miles with ever lessening weight. 100#'s is app +/- 1 mpg.

So really one can take the view it is NOT a LOT, but..., IF one can get 13.2 miles PLUS MORE by literally doing .... not much, one question can become.... why NOT ? (not)

So for another (counter) example, I am not a fan of the "space" saving spare even for (VW) diesels. But, any aggregate loss of weight does decrease fuel consumption (in theory).

ruking1

This can not be a good thing !? There is no indications on how many diesel JC's are affected.

Not read for prime time?

gagrice

The Cherokee is the wannabe ugly brother of the GRAND CHEROKEE. Not sure if it was ever a big seller. Sounds like they got the cart ahead of the horse on that 9 speed transmission. As far as the diesel Grand Cherokee, I will believe it when I see one. Chrysler makes lots of promises they cannot keep.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/10/13/chrysler-jeep-cherokee-delay- - -dealers-restless/2968725/

ruking1

Perhaps I am jumping forward a bit, in that probably Chrysler is not even close to being in a position like VW or even MB, where they can put either the same engine (like VW) TDI in different models (Jetta, JSW, Golf, NB, Passat) or even an upgrade TDI engine 3.0 L TDI, BMW, MB in: or an intermediate TDI twin turbo like the MB 2.1 L with 369 # ft of torque.

gagrice

I think MB is king of the heap on 4 cylinder diesels right now. The GLK is not that light and the engine is more than enough for it. When we start seeing people hitting 40 MPG with a 4200 lb SUV that is pretty impressive.

gagrice

It looks like Jeep is selling the 2014 GC diesel outside of CA. Not sure what that means. Closest available one is in Reno. Only 43 in the whole USA. Most East of the Rockies.

ruking1

I really think one of the reasons why diesels have been vilified for so long is PRECISELY because of the scenario/s you describe. They have been trying to avoid it for as long as possible. Also I almost get the feeling there is a hostile attitude toward a CUV @ app 5,000 #'s getting the range of mpg you and I post, (VW Touareg gasser comparison is 18.7 to 19 mpg), with almost 1k #s more weight AND AWD. It might even rankle some, not even trying to get good mpg and get (better than H EPA mpg) 31 to 34 mpg in the SOS DD R/T.

Fintail's MB 350 BlueTech can get 40 mpg and is app 4k #'s, but does not have the AWD. The GLK is @ 4k #'s plus and has AWD but is H epa'd @ 35 mpg if I remember correctly. As most folks know the MB TDI's employ a 7 speed A/T with the MB ML 350 bluetec using a CVT/hybrid A/T. So it will be interesting if and when the 9 speed A/T becomes main stream. I also think more twin turbos might be destined to hit our markets.

fintail

Another day on the road:



Also found this in the menu:

gagrice

I know the feeling. Make excuses to drive the diesel and see just how great they are in every way compared to gas guzzlers. Headed out Sunday for a cross country trek. My first fill-up will be in AZ where diesel is 25 cents a gallon cheaper than here. I only 400 miles on this tank. It shows 290 to go. Only about 150 miles to a cheap Chevron in AZ.

fintail

I really can't see a reason to choose an equivalent PUG car over a diesel like this. 8 months into the car, and no regrets (the payment is automatic, so that part is less painful).

Today's mpg numbers included a couple of mountain passes with cruise set at 70-75 as well.

nyccarguy

Very solid, impressive numbers fintail. I just filled up the 3er & got my best mpg (since I joined fuelly 3603 miles ago). 23.4 mpg. Sounds like you are happy with your car & the amazing mileage is a bonus for you!

Gagrice - definitely interested in hearing your mpgs for this cross country trip.

xwesx

Yeah, I really just need an AWD something outside of the luxury class to get on board with diesel, and I'll be seriously in the market. As it is, I don't mind hanging on to my current fleet indefinitely.

stever

"General Motors' Buick division is likely to offer a diesel engine in the near future, a well-placed company source told Edmunds. Although the person would not name a specific Buick model that would be the first to use a fuel-saving diesel, the compact Verano is the probable candidate, as GM earlier this year began offering a four-cylinder diesel engine in the Chevrolet Cruze, effectively the mechanical twin of Buick's Verano.

The Encore also has presented an interesting situation for Buick. The small crossover's early popularity was somewhat unexpected — in September, for example, the Encore sold a plump 3,206 copies and outsold every model from Cadillac save the SRX crossover. But a source outside GM told Edmunds a primary reason those considering the Encore cited as a reason for not buying the diminutive crossover is lack of engine power. The Encore's only engine is a turbocharged 1.4-liter four-cylinder with 138 horsepower. "

Buick Thinks Diesel, Wants More Power for Popular Encore

(Was out of town yesterday and the crazy station is still pumping diesel for fifty cents a gallon more than any other station. Lowest was $3.75 vs $3.49 for RUG).

Michaell

But a source outside GM told Edmunds a primary reason those considering the Encore cited as a reason for not buying the diminutive crossover is lack of engine power. The Encore's only engine is a turbocharged 1.4-liter four-cylinder with 138 horsepower.

I wonder if the 2.0L TD would even fit under the hood of the Encore. If it did, I suspect that there would be a pretty good take rate, given the extra HP and torque over the 1.4L turbo. And, mid 40's highway MPG to boot.

fintail

If only Subaru could finally get a diesel ready for NA. The brand still has kind of an offbeat following kind of like VW, I bet they'd sell.

houdini1

I am always surprised at how low my total average speed is over time. Must be all that time spent at zero mph.

gagrice

At one time Alaska was about the only place you would see a Subaru. They were the first good AWD for the budget minded driver. And were a huge hit in the 49th state. Why they have not gotten off the dime and made their diesel available to US buyers is somewhat of a mystery. Though I understand if they are set on using a CVT auto transmission it is probably not a viable option. Why not just bring the manual transmission model that passes our emissions and let the rest be envious. They sell all over the EU and Australia with just a 6 speed manual. It is not like they cannot get decent auto transmissions from Aisin part of the Toyota group.

ruking1

There seems to be quite a Subie following in NorCA. Or perhaps it has been mentioned any number of times, so I notice them. For the money, it is one of the best build cars ! I would not get one if I had to get an automatic. I seem to see them on the trips up and back to north and south Lake Tahoe, CA.

stever

Do diesel engines have head gasket problems?

ruking1

I understand Honda Civics and Accords (gassers obvious) have head gasket issues. For diesels (VW's I have seen any number of NorCA VW's with TB/WP changes 100k + miles) that have a 100k to 120k TB/WP change cycle due, no there are not many.

gagrice

Hopefully Subaru has learned how to build engines better since the junk they sold in the early 1970s. My 1973 Subaru blew both head gaskets. I replaced myself at my expense because the dealer was a CROOK. After replacing them using the torque settings in the manual. I had no more head gasket problems. What I did continue to have was manual transmission problems going uphill on snow covered roads. The vehicle would start jumping and pop out of 2nd or 3rd gear. Which was a dangerous situation. Never had those issues with my 1970 Datsun PU truck with RWD. I am just not a fan of FWD. The 1978 Honda Accord with manual was not great on snow and ice either. Give me a rear wheel drive or 4x4 anytime. AWD, 8 speed auto and a diesel engine you have near perfection for all driving situations.

ruking1

With the AWD and 8 speed A/T, while I didn't pay much attention to the snow and ice gig last season; looking back on it, there was almost ZERO drama. Driving it under winter conditions was seamless. The thing I really appreciated was not having to use the brakes as much. It was almost exponentially LESS.

cdnpinhead

that Subarus sell very well in snow country. Where we spend part of our summers in CO, we've noticed for the past 15 years that a large number of the locals drive Subarus. On a recent business trip to New England, I saw a bunch of them as well.

Now that we've bought a property here in AZ that sports a 7600-foot elevation, we'll certainly be giving Subaru a hard look.

cooterbfd

Great. They wait till AFTER I trade the Lacrosse in for the Cruze to announce a Verano Diesel........oh well.

fintail

My road trips average out with the poorly managed gridlock at home, I guess. My commute speed is always below 20mph.

fintail

By the 80s they were big in WA, too. I know they'd sell a lot of diesel Subarus in Seattle anyway. I think company execs must be happy with the status quo - which is significant growth.

nyccarguy

Up until the early 2000s when all the luxury manufacturers started to offer some form of AWD, pretty much every suburban, New England home had either a Subaru or a Jeep in the driveway. I agree if they have a competitive diesel they should bing it!

ruking1

But wait !

Subaru's Got a Big Problem: It's Selling Too Many Cars

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323838204579002400970446352?- - KEYWORDS=subaru

AND it is happening in Australia and not in US markets.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/209114/2013-subaru-outback-becomes-local-brands-firs- t-diesel-auto/

tkfitz1

They might be concerned that the first time someone had starting/fuel issues in cold weather it would be terrible publicity for a brand that sells as an all weather car. I see a ton of Suburus every day here in NE. The first thing I notice on a -20 morning are all the diesel pickups on the side of the road. Subaru has also made great progress wrt their fuel efficiency. The smaller cars get mid 30s on the highway. They also do not make/market a large vehicle that would greatly benefit from having a diesel. Tribeca sales are minimal. Suburu owners are comfy with a small efficiency loss due to the awd as well.
Also....gas is $3.24 a gal here.......diesel $3.89.

gagrice

I might see why Subaru is reluctant to bring their diesels to the USA. If they can get $39k for a manual transmission diesel in Australia, and 20% of their Outback sales, I don't think that would get it here. Not when you can buy an Outback for under $25k in the USA. Though I see they are going well under invoice to move them here. For some reason the Outback was not selling well in Sept. The Forester picked up the slack.

My daughter bought a new Forester this year and loves it. She lives in flat country so the CVT should do ok. Traded her 4 year old GMC PU on it before it nickeled and dimed her to death. Let's say she learned her lesson on GM like her dad.

They like the Forester so much her husband traded his 7 year old Yaris in on a Impreza Hatchback. The Yaris was trouble free and averaged close to 40 MPG. It was a very base manual with crank up windows. A two Subaru family.

nyccarguy

You can't look at Australian prices and compare them to those here in the US. I have a "mate" that lives over there & he tells me that "everything is just more expensive." From clothes to cars. He currently drives an Accord that he paid something like $58,000 for. I took him for a ride in my BMW and he was simply shocked at "how cheap that is."

gagrice

A lot of Americans think Australia, Canada and the EU are better places to live. Most would scream bloody murder when they realize how much more they are taxed. Looking at the VW Touareg TDI I just paid $49k for the Brits have to pay $74k. Even with our extortion like 8% CA sales tax my out the door was under $53k. We are a spoiled people.

Even with our high unemployment we are doing better than most EU countries.

ruking1

I think that was really the whole point. Why would Subaru want to make less profit (here) when they can sell it for more( there, in Aussie land) and make even higher volume and percentage profit?

The diesel adds a "perceived " advantage (there) due to AWD mpg loss. It is not "penalized".

We (in the states) like to talk of getting better mpg. A priority is not actually placed on getting it. Those that actually "get it" are penalized.

So to address another's comment about good GAS mileage in SUBIES. (US markets) Ain't a thing wrong with what mpg they get (US markets) Just that 30% or more (diesel) is... better. We penalize better.

fintail

Of course, they get something for their taxes...we get student loan debt, medical debt, high poverty, and an out of control Praetorian class. Of course, they do have a bit of a demographic time bomb too.

British and Oz prices are on the road, after taxes. It works that way on the continent, too. You'll pay something like a 19% tax in Germany, but it is reflected on the price posted on the car, not as a "gotcha" once you start doing the paperwork.

Oh, another fun thing is that US versions of cars tend to be higher spec than Euro versions. NA in particular (Canuckistanian MBs generally have more equipment than USA models,albeit at a higher price) has a lot more standard equipment than Europe.

fintail

Subaru increasing mileage on newer models has helped them, too. I have a co-worker with an ~03 Impreza that he loved, but claims it is hard to break 25mpg on the highway.

The odd price difference for fuel is why diesel still makes more sense in higher line cars that require premium than in normal cars that run on 87.

gagrice

The problem I have with the Outback is MPG. Their gas model on Fuelly gets 25 MPG average over several hundred examples. Two people have posted their diesel Outbacks they are averaging 40 MPG and get as much as 45 MPG. Both are in Norway. I can understand them not wanting a gasser with the highest priced gas in the World.

Here is where I am coming from. I can get 25 MPG without even trying with a vehicle that is 1500 lbs heavier than the Outback. I would bet it is far more robust off road as well. Not planning any rock climbing to prove it.

gagrice

If we got something for our outrageous taxes in CA, other than sunshine, I would agree with you. Many EU countries have high taxes and are not as well run as Germany and Switzerland. I can count more losers than winners. Even though CA taxes diesel at a higher rate than gas it is a far better choice. The best option if you don't want the state to take all your money is to move out.

In July, fans of the Los Angeles Lakers took a kick to stomach when free agent Dwight Howard, arguably the league’s best center, signed a four-year, $88 million contract with the Houston Rockets for $30 million less guaranteed money than he was offered in a five-year deal to stay with the Lakers. On Cal Watchdog, I broke down how California’s extremely high state income tax on high earners made it completely understandable as to why Howard would bolt for Texas.

http://calwatchdog.com/2013/10/18/high-state-income-taxes-once-again-haunt-a-cal- ifornia-nba-team/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook

fintail

25mpg for an AWD vehicle was remarkable 20 years ago, but times moved on.

Calling an Outback an SUV has always been a stretch in my eyes - it is very capable on a gravel road or going to a ski resort, but don't take it where you'd take something based on a truck. The Touareg would probably fare better, but seems a bit fancy for that work too.

fintail

CA still makes many multi-millionaires. Like a reply in that link says, people will continue to pay it, because a few specific areas continue to have high amounts of opportunity for specific people. Those who don't want it are free to go elsewhere. Regarding the EU, there is a divide between those who make things work and those who don't (and it's more than Germany vs the rest) - not unlike the US, where some states function much better and have a better general standard of living than others. Both unions might not live forever.

Is diesel taxed higher than gasoline in every US state?

nyccarguy

Could subaru's CVT handle the diesel torque & AWD? Those diesel oubacks are CVT?

gagrice

Supposedly Subaru has a beefed up CVT for the diesel engines. I don't think they have sold any yet. All the ones sold since 2009 are manual transmission Outback diesels.

gagrice

I think it averages about 6 cents per gallon more across the USA. CA diesel tax as of this month is 76.2 cents per gallon. 71.6 cents for gas. Washington State is 61.9 cents for diesel and 55.9 for gas.

http://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas-overview/industry-economics/~/media/Files- /Statistics/StateMotorFuel_OnePagers.pdf

alltorque

UK "On The Road" prices include : Delivery Fee, Registration Fee and First Year Excise Duty, ("Road Tax"), then ADD 20% VAT (Value Added Tax), to the total. Not difficult to see why we pay more. However, we don't have local or state (County), taxes on goods.

Our fuels prices are comprised of Fuel Cost + Excise Duty + 20% VAT,(i.e. a tax on a tax - Duty). Current local price for ULSD is $8.6 per US Gallon equiv.........£1.399 per litre.

My Annual Vehicle Excise Duty, (Road Tax), for a Volvo S60 D5 is £260 / $421 based on it's CO2 emissions.

You guys live in the promised land. Be happy. You can see why the European and Japanese manufacturers develop the engines/transmissions/cars they do

fintail

I stand corrected - it's just the continent that has evolved to the point of including tax with vehicle prices. I know it works that way in Germany anyway. Maybe the British public should revolt and create a more livable vehicle tax scheme then? (yeah, I know) Maybe not possible with the surveillance grid. Being the benefits holiday and false asylum seeker destination of that part of the world comes with a price, I guess.

The US does have lower gas taxes - a necessity with low population densities and iffy at best transit infrastructure in 95% of the country. Some places have had high registration fees anyway.

fintail

Gotta pay for some rough roads, profitable projects for connected contractors, and high pensions and salaries for public sector "leaders" somehow, I guess.

I wonder what the legit reason is for higher diesel - to take advantage of truckers?

gagrice

My registration on the Sequoia was just under $500 per year the first 6 years. That is why I registered my vehicles in Alaska until I retired. Even though most of them were never in the State. $35 per year and NO smog in Prudhoe. No DMV so all done by mail. I should have maintained my AK residency. It costs me dearly registering in CA. Only reason I switched in 2008 was to vote here. And that was a costly mistake. Votes mean NOTHING in the state of CA. Any illegal can vote that wants to.

fintail

WA state used to have a hokey system tied to the value of the car, and it used a weird depreciation schedule where someone in a new Kia would pay more than someone with a 50 year old Ferrari. But that got overturned. I see people in WA doing the AK thing too.

Votes mean next to nothing anywhere in an oligocracy, don't feel bad.

cdnpinhead

"I wonder what the legit reason is for higher diesel - to take advantage of truckers?"

Once or twice a year I take it upon myself to point out that most consumption of diesel fuel is inelastic relative to price, unlike gasoline. If gas goes up enough, the demand drops. If diesel goes up, the additional cost is passed along to the ultimate consumer, but demand stays about the same. The class 8 trucks on the highway, locomotives, small to medium seagoing vessels (the ones that don't consume bunker oil) all continue to burn diesel, regardless of what it costs.

We're already seeing the interest in the use of diesel in automobiles drop off here in this board. When diesel costs 40 - 80 cents more per gallon, fewer diesel-powered cars will be sold than would have otherwise, but overall it's a drop in the ocean of diesel consumption.

The good ol' days when diesel was significantly less costly than gasoline AND there was a big fuel mileage advantage are gone, probably for good.

A day late and a dollar short, as they say, at least for me.

crkyolfrt

I would bet it is far more robust off road as well. Not planning any rock climbing to prove it.

Oh come on, Gary...you're well overdue to update us with some current pics.. Hell...the last ones were in B&W, lol
Let's see if ya can get a bit of a squeal or whoop outta Mrs Gary...lol Get that blood flowin'..