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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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Comments
My 1996 Dodge Ram 3500 Club Cab 4x4 dually with the 12-valve mechanical 5.9L Cummins I-6 was rated at 180 hp and 420 lb-ft, moving a 7000 pound truck.
The VM Motori unit is 240 hp and 420 lb-ft from literally half the displacement, and half the engine weight.
Even with the modest increase in hp, losing some 400 pounds of dead weight on the front end would have made that 1996 Ram a completely different vehicle to drive.
And by comparison, the same-block Cummins, bored/stroked slightly to 6.7L and equipped with electronically-controlled everything, now produces 385 hp and 850 lb-ft - more than double what my 96 engine developed.
KCRam - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host
Just passed an Exxon station in OK that was selling RUG for $3.01, PUG for $3.89 and Diesel at $3.79. Most of the SUV diesels have gas counterparts that require PUG. With the new high price of Premium and the much lower mileage has to make a lot of Luxo SUV buyers take a second look at the diesels.
I'm not advocating against diesel, just want to show that the savings may not always be as great as some might think.
I would buy the diesel even if it never penciled out financially. The driving experience is SUPERIOR to any gas counter part. If cheap cost per mile was the only factor buy a Yaris base model. TCO has to be better than most anything on the road.
On the other hand IF, you are like me and want an SUV that is as quiet as any luxury car in its price range. Has acceleration in the higher realm (0-60 in 6.9 seconds). Cruises all day on the interstate at 80 MPH without down shifting on every hill, you get the only option that being the diesel version. Knowing you will get the difference back when you trade up to the latest diesel in 3-5 years.
Plus you have the satisfaction you are giving the oil companies less money than you would with a gasser. My average the first 3741 miles is at 26.4 MPG. That is 44% better than my 2007 Sequoia lifetime average. Did I mention 700+ miles on a tank of diesel??? High tank to date 29.7 MPG. Should be breaking into the 30s very soon, if I quit those mad passing runs close to 100 MPH.
The Colorado "high altitude" benefits of TDI's just occurred to me as an after thought. Colorado TDI operators will experience close to sea level mpg's. Gasser operators will experience significant losses. Using the same speeds (@ altitude) I would have gotten 50 mpg, but got slightly more than 48 as an example (4% loss)
Denver (lived there in a former life) is the figurative and literal "mile high" city @ 5280 ft which is the EXACT definition of a mile.
I have yet to return to Pikes Peak (14,110 ft) in a diesel, but we might have to remedy that in future road trip.
My wife owned the 2004 Mazda 6 V6 Sportwagon, and we loved it except for the F/E. She just wouldn't go for the diesel back then claiming they were "yukky". Jeez.
Hmmmmm to your second paragraph.
Same truck, all other components the same, same trip - I'd say the 96 would approach 26 mpg.
I also feel pretty confident the Ram 1500 with the 3.0L in 4x2 regular cab form will easily break 30 driven carefully on the highway.
KCRam - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host
Speaking of slow news diesel days, on the 09 Jetta TDI (Sedan) DSG. Fueled this early morn, (CHP officer the only other getting fuel) after the typical weekly commute slough (there are perhaps two places that beat this for slough, Wash D.C and select areas in LA LA CA LAND) and last weekend getting tire rotation, brake fluid flush, brake pads and rotors inspection, and DSG filter and transmission oil changed, Vag.com check and adjustments (high shop time idling), the mpg posted was 41.6 mpg (about normal in the range and avg) .
Fuelly.com puts gasser 09 Jetta's @ 26.4 mpg. Diesel (ours anyway) then being 57.6% BETTER fuel mileage.
I personally would have much preferred the 6 speed manual. However, the 6 speed DSG is seen by (these) commuters as seamless and are happy campers in this regard (3/4 are not even close to CAR people, despite being related to an addicted one- where did I go wrong?). I actually enjoy the DSG also. One spin off advantage to the 6 speed M/T would probably have been even better mpg , but that would probably elevate the mpg numbers to further obnoxiousness.
I am indeed unsure about how the comparison between the (6 speed both), DSG and M/T makes on brake pads and rotor wear. Numbers from measurement permit a swag of 260,000 miles on this set.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The black box would transmit the data to the IRS, who would transmit a tax bill back to the driver. A side benefit to the gov. is that they would be able to track all your movements and know where you were at all times.
The tax dollars generated would probably go into the general fund to be used on various pork barrel projects instead of building new highways.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
CA highway policies are a good example. The for highway funds "ONLY "were discomboomerrated a LONG time ago; to go to the pin money fund (general fund). The very same politicos that have the power to reinstate "for highway funds ONLY" express SURPRISE that we have some of the worst roads in the country, while counterintuitively have some of the most onerous highway taxations.
loading bike riders that pay zip I would more inclined to be happy.
Seems this kind of junk is what the tea party should be yelling about!
The Govt. gives us incentives to switch to "more efficient" cars, then they want their money back. Go figure.
Another way the diesel is "different" from a gasser. The interesting "similarity" is taking advantage of the full power. As you point out, the fuller torque on a gasser normally is at higher revs/rpm. The diesel's normally are in a lower AND much narrower rpm bandwidth. The key for diesels is to get to and stay in that narrower rpm band width "earlier, i.e., upshift earlier."
So for example, the VW T TDI's sweet sport (full 406# ft of torque) is between 1,750 rpm to 2,250 rpm. Full hp comes on @ 4,000 rpm. But much over 3,000 rpm does not increase the torque.
I notice today that diesel is now 20-30 cents more than PUG at many stations. Supply and demand, free markets, capitalism, etc etc etc.
I recall being on the fence for a number of issues:
1. first year of the new emissions system.
2. tainted news about the new emissions system
4. issues about durability and reliability of the DSG
5. SHORT DSG warranty
6. high pressure fuel (hpfp) pump durability and reliability
7. 52% more torque BUT @ a loss of mpg.
It appeared that VWA stepped up to every one of those issues (rare for them). The best I can figure was the tax credit seemed to be in the amount of the manufacturing cost of the new emissions system, that was vendored in then NY state, that (then) Senator Hillary Clinton represented.
So what the tax credit (defacto), combined with aggressive pricing AND cheaper(ZERO%, drive off with signature) money did wa made the price, CHEAPER than the 03 TDI (adjusted for (real) inflation), 7 my's EARLIER. Defacto VW finance was also willing to front the monies. The 09 seems to be better built, more power, etc, etc. So far the 09 Jetta TDI has run like the proverbial top and like a trooper. Now if only ULSD was @ 2003 prices of app 1.85 per gal.
The Ford "Sync" system should be renamed to another 4 letter word starting with "S". No, not that word, "Suck" is what I had in mind. Most people do not want "voice activated" on their car stereo, especially when the voice recognition is really primitive, and based on an operating system like WinCE. Perhaps if Ford had outsourced to Google (Android) or Apple (iOS) rather than Microsoft, things might have worked out better for them.
Or why not just use knobs and buttons? I never had a problem with the stereo in my 2011 Silverado. The first day I owned my 2013 F150 it was back in the shop for issues with Sync. This is NOT how you win friends and influence people.
However a quick and dirty mention was given to one electronic example: " problematic piston deactivation system". (power and therefore mpg savings) which because of how it followed on the broadcast, I took to mean this was electronically activated. Please post any correction, as this was an aural newsflash.
Toyota Prius V was also NOT recommended.
Problem is, our fuel efficient cars chew up our roads just like non fuel efficient ones. Gas taxes pay for road repairs. The Federal Highway trust fund is going broke, because the gas tax doesn't keep up with inflation. The last time it was raised was 1993. So, either double or triple the gas tax, or pay by the mile.
Somehow, these roads and bridges need to be repaired.
Wider adoption could affect revenue collection and could affect supply and demand a bit (don't ask me if diesel prices would fall of if the refiners would just crack the oil a bit differently and maybe make less of it).
"Operators of some of the largest U.S. truck fleets are accelerating a shift to natural gas fueled trucks, betting on new engine technology that promises to drop the cost of shifting from diesel fuel.
A shift to natural gas for trucking has implications for the U.S. consumption of oil, domestic energy industry and air quality. Natural gas produces less carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and sulfur-based pollution than diesel or gasoline per mile driven.
About 5% of all heavy duty trucks sold next year will run on natural gas, up from around 1% this year, according to industry projections. Barriers to wider use are coming down, driven by the relatively low cost of compressed natural gas, or CNG, which sells for about $1.50 less a gallon than its equivalent in diesel fuel, which averaged about $3.87 a gallon this week.
The average heavy truck consumes as much fuel as 40 sedans in a year. Such vehicles make up just 1% of the U.S. vehicle fleet, but consume 20% of the fuel. Diesel-engine trucks get between 5 miles a gallon and 7 mpg and average 100,000 miles a year."
Filled for lowest price yet on diesel today. $3.51 at Shell here in Indiana. Most stations are selling diesel for $3.89. Gas Buddy listed and we were looking at property in that town. Interestingly Indiana has very high taxes on diesel at 74.6 cents per gallon. RUG tax is 54.6 cents. CA & CT are the only states with higher diesel tax.
Bet that Touareg could really pull a plow.
The issue is really the gasoline and diesel taxation structures are already multi layered and multi structured. The system has been engineered to be NON transparent. Essentially we already have a tax over a tax, within a tax, etc, etc. To prostitue a phase that is use normally as a capitalistic concept, taxation is vertically integrated.
So for example a lot of gasser users complain about the higher cost of diesel engines and transmissions. IF it were about using less fuel, they should charge LESS for diesels. They should tax less for diesel fuel. They should charge LESS for diesel fuel. Instead we all know the drill, they charge MORE !! They also tax more in multiple levels and a lot of them are unseen and unknown.
A similar issue occurs with operational time and expense. A diesel tractor trailer can go coast to coast on 3 fill-ups, meaning the rig will only have to stop twice for fuel on the trip. A CNG-powered rig will have to stop 5 times and take longer to refill. Now you've affected the driver's time sheets by reducing his driving shift for the extra time to refuel.
Truckers have to maximize cargo - that's how they get paid. Owner-operators and small fleets will never be able to convert because they can't afford the revenue loss involved with extra capital expense, loss of payload, loss of time, and loss of efficiency.
KCRam - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host
You have convinced me. I did not realize that was the issue with CNG. I knew in cars they take up a lot of your trunk space, much like hybrids. Probably why less than 1% are using CNG. I think a better alternative is GTL diesel fuel. They say diesel made from NG is the cleanest fuel going. Around here the local transit buses in town are NG. The ones that are in the county are still diesel.
I could not be happier with my diesel SUV. First 4300 miles I am averaging 26.6 MPG. Even with the high cost of diesel that pencils out to $0.143 per mile. My Sequoia over the last year of ownership averaged $0.205 per mile. So even with the high price of diesel I am saving 30% on fuel. And enjoying the driving far more. A big WIN, WIN for me.
Governments at all levels have to give all levels of tax credits and tax breaks and for cost effective time frames to make any progress.
So for example in NorCA, the north's gas and electric company (monopoly ) had to think long and hard in converting a (specific) portion of its fleet (applications) to natural gas fuel. Keep in mind they are PROVIDERS of ...NATURAL GAS fuel !!!!! ????
I further talked to a gas and electric supervisor. Among the many issues, we discussed was the fact that he (personally) fueled on a company provided natural gas vehicle EVERY day: in a company provided facility. I didn't ask how he would get fuel if for example IF he ran out say off the side of a local freeway, which would have been a very involved logistical question. So just one (practical) question would be: what are the ramifications of one getting fuel up to 365 days a year from say 19.23 times in a year? (15,000 miles per year 26 gal tank, 30 mpg) We didn't even get onto the applicable tax credits and incentives the local G& E company received for the switch.
The NG provider in Prudhoe Bay AK started out with LNG fueled trucks. As they aged and were sent South they replaced with diesel. Too many hassles is what they told me. That was part of why I did not convert my PU truck to LNG/CNG in the 1990s. And now there are fewer public fueling stations than the 90s.
I see no good advantages to the owner operator over diesel. FLeet short range seems to be where NG is best used.
CNG seems perfect for UPS or Lowes kinds of outfits doing short haul, terminal based runs. The story did cover the problems associated with doing runs coast to coast, but it sounds like the payback is relatively quick when you can save $1.50 a gallon.
Flying J was pushing to install CNG stations (not sure if they were the overnight variety or the quickie ones), but since the bankruptcy, who knows how those plans are going.
The advantage of natural gas is/are all the multi layered taxations and structures are not YET wrapped into and around it, like gasoline and diesel !!!! ?????
Perhaps the narrative is also that it has not yet been vilified to and/or excoriated by the various special interest groups. If one had the full on assault (like the drive to KILL COAL) and the costs of new infrastructure/s waved in one's face daily, front and center vs the already mature gasoline and diesel infrastructure, the whole (natural gas as alternative fuel to gasoline, diesel, ethanol, hybrid, plug in electrical) concept is dead on arrival. Actually a lot of alternative fuel concepts SHOULD be DOA.
On the flip side to make gasoline and diesel more competitive, all one has to do is to identify all the taxation multilayers and structures and "unwrap" them.
But it's mostly economics.
Indeed economics are @ least one major reason for diesels being an EXTREME minority of the passenger vehicle fleet @ 5% or less. Of 257.512 M vehicles (registered in 2011) , 5 % puts the units @ app 12.8756 M diesels. Of that %, fully half is/are so called "light trucks". This would drop large car/suv to smaller diesel PASSENGER cars to 6.4378 M or more like 2.5% total of diesel passenger cars.
With that said, I am so glad I have a basic one with knobs and duplicate controls on the steering wheel. My 2012 Optima EX(which they do make in a 1.7 liter twin scroll turbo in the EU), has a unit that looks like a stereo, has voice activated phone integration, 2 Aux inputs, USB input, Sirius SAT, and dual zone HVAC that looks like A/C, with a temp knob for each person.
Everything is intuitively labeled and I didn't need to use the manual to setup any of it. From pairing my phone to switching from Pandora to thumb drive, you wont need to spend time with your eyes on the unit, instead of the road. No it does not include GPS, but I have an external one that is on all the time. $60 Garmin, instead of $2000 on the option sheet.
It is really (further) sad in the sense that most commerce can be conducted with 3rd, 4th grade @ MOST 5th grade mathematics.
But then, it might get back to Henry Ford and Rockefeller (Standard Oil fame) . Rockefeller in refining oil had a LOAD of WASTE in gasoline. (see EIA.gov to see the gasoline %'s of a barrel of oil) So FORD might have reasoned: if we make cars run off wasted product: ah, ...kill two birds with one stone routine ! It also beats pouring it in a river. In going for the third bird, HOW TO sell the scrap woods used in CAR production. Most folks don't remember Kingsford Charcoal was pioneered by Henry Ford. Currently it is owned by a company HQ'd in Oakland, CA.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
While CNG burns cleaner and can make sense in some applications, you're not going to see the trucking industry turned on its head with across the board use of this stuff. It simply doesn't provide the torque that is required for the vast majority of TT loads. You'll find that CNG use around the piers in NY, for example, are all single axle only, tractors, and are geared low to compensate for the lack of torque, and if you get stuck behind one anywhere above 40 mph, especially climbing bridge ramps etc. you'll realize just what dogs they are. But for shunting around intown and better still just in-yard use, they're great.
ruking, saw your reply about about the rear hatch question, thanks
Coincidently, today I saw the Realtor's VW T here (a 2010?) so I walked down the road to look at the back of it. He wasn't there to ask and I didn't want to bother him as he was doing a viewing, but I noticed an upside down triangular plastic nestle central at the bottom of the glass where the wiper pivots from, and it was hard to tell if it was a functional latch for the glass or not. I wondered if maybe the earlier ones might have had that feature, but since bringing the newer ones and lowering the base entry price, maybe stuff like that along with air-supension etc got dumped? As if we are not supposed to notice...
I am seeing way fewer popping hatches even in the last 5 years.
A comment to the manufacturers who are nickel and diming...I sure notice it..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2480654/Coast-Coast-29-hours-Mercedes-CL- -driver-sets-new-record-averaging-98mph-car-spent-months-fitting-gadgets-eye-pol- ice.html
The Cummins ISX12 diesel is rated up to 425/1650.
The Cummins Westport ISX12-G CNG is rated up to 400/1450, which falls right in between some of the diesel's top ratings (400/1650 and 370/1450).
So the power is there... the refueling infrastructure and operational efficiency is not.
KCRam - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host
So they've got them to deliver very usable torque figures, but at what cost per mile? I suspect it is no small potatoes. In order to produce such high output, they must be combusting a LOT of cubic gas volume, which MUST affect emissions proportionately.
Oh..just saw this: "operational efficiency is not".
Bingo!
I *think* they are looking at the smaller engine in their comparison but not positive. Upshot is that the NG trucks cost more, the fuel cost is $25k a year less, NG maintenance is higher (back to spark plugs!), net savings per year estimated to be $21k over a comparable diesel truck. 100k miles a year.
That includes the low ash natural gas engine oil (dexos3 lol?).
Diesel in this example gets 5 mpg, NG gets 4.5. Diesel range is 300 miles, NG range is 270 miles.
What they don't mention is the dedicated refueling station, and that's a requirement if you are running a local fleet where your trucks return to the terminal every night.