What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

..."People have been asking for a Tiguan TDI for years now, and I understand why VW doesn't do it as the current Tig is made in Germany and is already too expensive. Maybe the next generation. Anyhow, I think the first one with a diesel in that small CUV market has an opportunity and a big EPA number never hurts the marketing effort.

In addition, I think there's pent up demand for a Japanese diesel in the US; a lot of people grew up, rightly or wrongly, with the belief that Japanese makes are tops in reliability and have a hard time jumping to an American or Euro brand, diesel or not. With Mazda struggling as an independent, they have little to lose in being first to market. I think its a bold and enlightened move on their part."...

Actually there is another VW CUV in works. I was a tad confused on first read ( ala knowing about the Tiquan- your reference to Tiquan) While the article I read did not say it would have a diesel option, it does "kill two birds with one stone". So my take is that there is price resistance for a TDI Tiquan. However if and when VW can come up with a CUV model that addresses this issue, I would look to that (unknown) model and year to fill the % TDI bill.

ateixeira

I'd be shocked if a diesel Camcord hit a 20% take rate, maybe even less

Oh I think it would be way, way less than that.

Camry hybrid sold 4,443 units out of 404,886 total, or only about 1% of total Camry sales. To be fair, they sell tons of Prius and those are also mid-size.

My guess is a diesel Camry would not match the hybrid. That buyer wants isolation and zero NVH, not exactly diesel strengths.

Mazda only sold 34k Mazda6 last year, but it was a lame duck old model. Let's say with the diesel they bump that up to 45k or so.

I can easily see them selling 10k diesels.

gagrice

Our local town just adopted their first traffic circle intersection that was originally scheduled for street lights. Talk about a raving success story.

Roundabouts are great. I got used to them living in Mexico where they are very popular. And they are great places to put bronze statues of local heroes. I see this great web site devoted to promoting Roundabouts.

http://www.roundaboutsusa.com/photos.html

fintail

Only 4K Camry hybrids - 3K must have been sold in Seattle. Maybe a diesel Accord would fare better.

I have no doubt a diesel 6 would have a higher take rate than a diesel Camcord, ESPECIALLY Camry, but a 30% increase via diesel alone might be tough.

fintail

Is Tiguan production ever going to branch out to TN? Would make sense, as I bet a huge amount of its sales are in NA.

Good point about the perception of Japanese reliability. I remember being promised an Accord diesel several years ago.

tifighter

I recently saw that of the 2 million Prius sold globally since inception, 25% of all production has gone to California. That's staggering. Never underestimate the allure of the carpool lane.

crkyolfrt

In addition, I think there's pent up demand for a Japanese diesel in the US; a lot of people grew up, rightly or wrongly, with the belief that Japanese makes are tops in reliability and have a hard time jumping to an American or Euro brand, diesel or not. With Mazda struggling as an independent, they have little to lose in being first to market. I think its a bold and enlightened move on their part.

I would say 'rightly' on the first part of your paragraph, and I agree with the rest.

Back in the day...I wanna say 1987 (in Cda) being the last year diesels were fairly well represented in a varied style of vehicle. And maybe even 85/86 for a broader range still. Not counting GM's horrendous gasoline block V8 'diesel' failure (and I hold GM easily THEE most responsible for NA's negative impression that diesels got back then..and since..I STILL hear guys chatting that they would NEVER own another diesel after the nightmare they had with their old Oldsmobile, or whatever..yes some still live in the dark ages and seem to relish in being ignorantly unaware of progress or change) .......but not counting those we had a fairly impressive array of mostly Japanese sourced diesel engines. Most were 4 cyl and in the beginning, most were also NA'd. We had the diesel Datsun/Nissan p/u with their own built engine, and was a good one. Mazda had their own also, but was being used in their own truck along with Ford's Courier p/u at the time. I think Ford turboed that engine around 86 or 87? Then we also had (and I personally had) the Isuzu built diesel that GM was offering in the S10 p/u. I bought brand spanking new, an 85 extended cab, stick (5sp) with pwr steering/brakes and factory air. It was a RARE beast indeed. It was NA, but I still did a 52.5 mpg (Imp) (so still about 42 US) on an upper New York 600 mile return trip with A/C on both ways. The A/C being on was significant because with it not being turboed, the A/C really pulled her down. In order to pass with any umph at all I remember switching it off for the pass.

Had that truck been turboed and 4x4, I would have rust checked it faithfully within inches of its life and would still have it to this day. Of course I would have wasted the TERRIBLE bench seat it had.

FWIW, I used to thrash the poor thing late for work some days due to LA-like TO traffic, (crashes on perfect blue sky, dry road days..go figure) and it still always got between 38 and 42. That was with it rugged practically everywhere I went.

And Toyota had their terrific 3.4? gee I am forgetting now...NA diesel in their full sized wagon and Jeep style Land Cruisers. I had one..used to get mid 30's with it on yearly average. A fantastic engine..but mine I bought used and suffered terrible rust. It had manual (heavy but still pretty nice) steering, no turbo, and was a 4 speed stick, but top cog was direct. And during those same times, Toyota also offered their inline 6 diesel in the wagon. I demo'd one in the winter on a 100 mile trip and got 24. something with it on winter fuel with cruise set at 90 kph. (55) It was a 4 sp auto, OD...that and the poor mileage was why I didn't buy it. I also owned the Toyota p/u 'turbo' 2.4 diesel with a 4x4 that I looked for for years when trying to replace the memories of my S10. Finally found a really clean one but again was a poor performer mileage-wise. Babying it it still only got 27 Imp. Yet the big 1000 lb heavier and 1 litre larger Land Cruiser coukld get 35 all day long..I ended up selling the p/u to another enthusiast who looked for one like I had. I told him it was not the fuel performer you would think but he wanted it anyway. In defense of the p/u though, I did get a 24 mpg towing a Samurai with a towbar on an uphill basically trip of about 130 miles one way. And that's the killer...it got like 27 going to get the Sam and only a 3 mpg penalty towing it back..

Anyway, there were others too...Chev also had Isuzu's 1.8 NA diesel in their (pathetic otherwise) Chevettes. This was all back basically in the 80's and all these Japanese engines, while some did not offer the mileage you thought they should..others excelled) were all very good and dependable engines.

So if NA were to be skeptical about diesels to this day, I think it would be more towards any NA built engine. Like Ford...gawd help them I wouldn't buy one...and not GM either if they built their own.

Not sure if you guys got the Peugots (sp?) during those early years? But they too, were good engines..alas the cars rusted and were troublesome, but the engines performed well.

crkyolfrt

But if Honda did do an Accord diesel and used a 'new and improved' ..ya right.. CVT, and then if it flopped, they would blame it on the diesel instead of the tranny.

IMO, Not only for slip resistance and longevity of keeping the diesel's extra torque under wraps, but also for the drivability of a proper 6 individual geared auto like the Mazda's 6, would also contribute to its potential success if they dare dip their toes in oil..

stever

People have been asking for a Tiguan TDI for years now, and I understand why VW doesn't do it

I wonder if it's because the Tiguan is a "chick car", at least in LA. Maybe diesels are a guy thing?

The proof could be in the uptake of the Beetle Diesel - even though it's supposedly more masculine now, Beetles still seem to be selling more to women.

dave8697

We get another new roundabout in town every year. They are great after you suffer immensely during their construction. In about 3 more years, I will break even from the 9 miles per day detour that doubled my work commute from 21 to 40 minutes each way for 6 weeks during construction.

crkyolfrt

Must be the dash planter...

Plus chics still go for cute over practical...I continue to read that the Beetle is basically a disaster. Amazing how two dif models under the same brand can be so different in reliability/longevity potential. Like GM's Equinox, vs a full-sized Buick.. one is a disaster..the other sorta delivers..

xwesx

still go for cute over practical

Yes, and that includes the "falling in love" aspect. I know several female owners who admit they feel they paid more for a car than they should have, but they justify it (all of them) by saying, "but, I fell in love with the car!"

I briefly looked at the Tiguan, but the pricing just doesn't make it competitive with the rest of the segment. I didn't even bother trying to drive one simply due to that aspect. Basically, it didn't make it through the first round of the Open.

For these gals, perhaps that is not such a factor... ?

tifighter

Funny enough, I think it would be a good fit for my wife. She thinks a CRV is too big but wants something tall (she tweaked her back a few years ago). I've never driven a Tiguan, but have sat in one and was impressed with the passenger accommodations. Better rear seat room than my RDX. We will be looking in the summer, maybe at this, the CX5 the Crosstrek and perhaps the Countryman. I guess there's that new little Buick thing too. GLK and the X1 are out, she didn't like them, and its her car, so...

gagrice

Plus chics still go for cute over practical...I continue to read that the Beetle is basically a disaster.

The new Beetle sold more than the Golf last month. Hard to find VW projections for the Beetle. They need to increase the supply of TDIs. I can see no earthly reason to buy a VW gasser. Seems such a waste of money. It looks like Car n Driver did pretty well with their test of the newest Beetle TDI.

In the modern Beetle, pairing VW’s torquey 2.0-liter turbo-diesel with a six-speed manual delivers EPA-assessed mpg numbers of 28 mpg in the urbs, 41 on the open road. (The DSG automatic sacrifices 3 mpg on the highway.) We actually did a better than either figure, recording a whopping 45 mpg on a driving diet that included some suburban streets and a lot of country roads.

This is rare for us; we have a tendency to underperform in terms of EPA forecasts.

ruking1

There are precious few cars that would tempt me to go back to gassers.

xwesx

I can see no earthly reason to buy a VW gasser.

Agreed with you on that! TDI is what VW really has going for them, I think. In the gasoline realm, the only list I can see that they top (per segment) is price. With the TDI models, which have a modest premium over their gasoline counterparts, there's competitive value vs. other makes.

ruking1

I am not sure what you mean from a defacto POV. So for example, IF 21% of each year's VW's sold (2009,2010,2011,2012) are TDI's, it would seem the majority see the gasser VW as the overwhelming choice (79%). They have VOTED with their wallets. One current exception is the JSW (Jetta Sport Wagon, 2009.2010,2011,2012) where the TDI percentages I have read in more than once place are consistently 80% +.

But then on the other side, there are precious few other oems that offer the range of TDI models (albeit many using the same engine) as VW. So in that sense the % of VW's being TDI's might be reflective of the LACK of (or some other reasons) TDI's over the broad range of OEMS.

In my own case for two subsequent diesels, I selected VW's despite having other choices BMW/ MB / VW and BMW/MB/VW. I would not have selected the 2003 Jetta, if not for the diesel option. I do have to say that in all three cases AND over a span of 10/11 years, VW really made price/performance ratio considerations VERY integral. Any to all others considered would NOT go the extra mile as VW.

xwesx

I was looking at the choice of a VW, from a cost/value perspective, versus other makes in the same segment. To me, the gasoline versions are typically more expensive than other makes and yet do not offer any clear advantages while the diesel versions of the same model do have a clear advantage (fuel economy among them).

Basically the same thing you stated in your closing paragraph. If not for the diesel option, you would not have selected the '03 Jetta above the other choices available to you at the time.

ruking1

Your first paragraph could very well be. When shopping for an 04 TDI automatic () I bypassed the 2004 Jetta A/T as it cost more (1,100 extra for A/T) and offered no mpg advantage and some other reasons. I was just fine with far lesser quality in a 04 gasser, even as I am still very happy with it, 10 years later and hitting 150,000 miles (rest of the family STILL HATES it).

Your second paragraph would indicate we agree on the diesel portion. But that the same time, I probably would not go for gassers on the wider vehicle choices, i.e., for as good as both MB and BMW gasser engines ARE.

KCRam

the spread for me, being the owner of a car requiring premium fuel, is only .10 cents a gallon.
So with my car getting 25 mpg and say a Golf getting 40, I'd be 'saving' $800 a year.
I'm looking for something like $2000 a year savings to really tempt me to pull the trigger here.

One of the full-menu stations near me (Hess, not an off-brand) would be able to make you switch...

Regular Unleaded $3.599
Midgrade: $3.799
Premium: $3.939
Diesel: $3.979

kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host

ruking1

Even with that spread, RUG is 44.7% more per mile driven. (25 mpg vs 40 mpg)

ruking1

In the context in which you present the information, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that diesel is a "guy thing"? NONE of the "guy" cars are anywhere close to diesel (no diesel option).

Anecdotally, the three of four "women" drivers fight over driiving the DIESELS and not the gassers? When I (male driver) wanted to get a VW NB TDI, those same women drivers made it clear that I knew they knew it was a "chick" car.

stever

Someone wondered why Tiguan TDIs weren't selling. I was curious if gender played a role since it comes in a diesel flavor. Still curious about who's buying diesel Bugs since they aren't selling to guys overall. A lot of those "guy trucks" come in diesel models. I don't know if Polk or other outfits keep track of stuff like this.

It was a question, not a conclusion. :shades:

I would think that more men in the US would be willing to consider a diesel than women, but who knows. Good research project for you for the weekend, since you've already got a good start in your own household.

ruking1

Of those I know in the "mink and manure set," those drivers tow horses and they are predominately women driving those Ford/GM/Chysler turbo diesel rigs. One of those blondes drives a hay truck when she helps to harvest her fams hay, but that is another story and a tractor trailer rig at that. :blush:

ateixeira

Happy wife, happy life. Show her the menu but let her choose.

gagrice

Someone wondered why Tiguan TDIs weren't selling.

Maybe because we don't get them in the USA? I think it is hard to determine gender on vehicle purchases. My wife's granddaughter bought a VW Sportswagen TDI last year. She loves the mileage but finds it too small with two kids in car seats. So she is back driving her 4Runner. Her husband drives the VW now. They want to buy my Sequoia as it is 4X4 and they make a lot of trips to Tahoe where his parents live. Her 4Runner is 2 wheel drive. I would say most women with children like SUVs and Mini vans and the type fuel is irrelevant.

stever

lol, we had plenty of those in Boise too, although Hummers were popular too.

ruking1

CA has a pretty goofy (to those driving cars in 24/7 winter conditions) but not to a lot of clueless CA seasonal winter drivers. MTN chain controls point personnel let 4WD vehicles go in all but the most extreme snow ice conditions. When a snow plow with road accurate GPS has issues, you would agree one really does not want to be in that soup anyways. They seem to even make cars with snow tires chain up, even as most cars are really not designed with chains in mind. So the second a chain or a cable gets "loose" you are looking at easily 1,000 in body/fender damage.

So in effect if one has reason to be in winter conditions, defacto it only makes sense to have a 4wd cub/suv/pu.

crkyolfrt

For anyone who lives with winter seasons and hills, it's hard to believe anyone would invest the $ needed to get into a late model 4 Runner, and not get AWD..
In fact, was not the '4' in 4 Runner signifying it's 4x4 drive capability? In this case, buying a RWD 4 Runner is almost blasphemous..

Yet I had a friend who had a Jeep Cherokee that was also only 2WD. A TWO wheel drive JEEP??? Again...even more blasphemous..
And was suitably constantly stuck with it..trying to do what AWD SUV's do..

When trying to resell those types of vehicles, I liken them to the value of a Cadillac or Lincoln without factory A/C back in the 60's or 70's. Some car lots called them 'pigs'. Aberrant one-offs I say..

gagrice

In fact, was not the '4' in 4 Runner signifying it's 4x4 drive capability? In this case, buying a RWD 4 Runner is almost blasphemous.

I was very surprised her 4Runner was 2WD. It is So CA we live in. She has had it a long time. I think it is a 98 or 99 model 4Runner. It was only an issue this last Christmas when they went to Tahoe. She took her mom's LX470. An SUV without 4WD is not worth much in my opinion. And resale is usually much less than with 4WD.