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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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Yes, I think if one looks at the stated sales goals of 800,000 units, US markets, they are making a HUGE long term commitment with $ 7 B. So for example, IF 407,704 units http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/10/volkswagen-brand-sales-figures-usa-canada.html were 13 MY sales AND were 2.6 % of the market share, they are really aiming for app. 5.2 % market share. GM's $37 M is literal CHUMP change in comparison (189 to ONE ratio, aka a little more than one/half of 1 % ) .
As you have noted, the "home teams" are heavy into the Obama's vilified tax "inversions" EVEN as they took HUGE ! HUGE ! HUGE ! taxpayer help. Folks need to keep in mind, the unions are now "controlling" owners of GM (seats on boards, unionized labor, massive and controlling minority SHARE owners , etc, etc, , ceded to them as part and parcel of the US American taxpayer bail out.
This does not even count the Detroit bankruptcy and the going forward 50+ year cost to rebuild, IF that is even in the cards.
$37 M might cover the folks that got killed, injured, maimed, etc. (with the .75 cent GM cost to fix) due to the faulty ignition switch design and execution (no pun intended) , which they probably thought was too much for a fix at the time. We won't really know what the settlement figures are for SOP is the agreement not to reveal.
All "Detroit" needs to do is make the city limits cover all 11 or so counties that get the benefits of downtown. Those surrounding areas didn't get anywhere near broke, but the lines were drawn long before the tax base moved out of town. All those people still use the urban infrastructure, the stadiums, the museum, yada yada.
Shoot, got off-topic and it's not even the weekend.
There's a Ram 1500 long term update on the site today but it says squat about the diesel (although the zero to 30 and 60 numbers are there).
Here's a lovely way to win friends and influence people:
"Craig Wedge floors his pickup and the souped-up diesel engine of his Ford F-350 Power Stroke rumbles like a muscle car, blasting black smoke through an unfiltered exhaust pipe.
He and other diesel enthusiasts call this burst of unburned fuel “rolling coal”; for many of them, it is an act of protest against environmental regulations. In defiance of the law, coal rollers disable or discard their trucks’ pollution controls and modify their engines to maximize power and blow smoke with the flip of a switch."
Rules have diesel enthusiasts fuming (Boston Globe)
Pointless adolescent behavior IMO, and harmful to the diesel enthusiast.
..."Among their complaints: the ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel mandated by the federal government costs significantly more at the pump and corrodes older trucks’ expensive fuel injectors; particulate filters required on new vehicles sap about 30 percent of their fuel efficiency; and other rules about air flow and special injections lead to premature engine failure."....
Well, it is hard to not point out the irony and disingenuousness of 30% LESS fuel efficiency MANDATED by the EPA, etc. . The EPA of course completely over looks the mandated LOWER fuel mileage.
Like I have said in a past post: Burning far more, while professing to using less is how the REAL world operates. God help you if you really ARE using less !! Under current laws you could be punished as a felon.
So for example if my 03 Jetta TDI got 30% better mpg than its 50 mpg that would be 65 mpg, which the engine is ALREADY capable of! Lord knows we can't have that, can we?
Keep in mind the records posted by the Tailors and Gerdes et al @ 84+/77+ mpg on a 43 mpg H EPA Passat. What do you think it would be if they got 30% BETTER FE ?
And I could improve my mpg by burning yak dung and charcoal briquets (WW2 era stuff).
But who wants to ruin their lungs that way?
Nothing says success like a hyperventilating hypermiler.
Well AGAIN, keep in mind there are a whole class of transportation vehicles that operate that EXACT way !!! Indeed they are advocated by the environmental conservatives: Ships (bunker oil @ 25,000+ plus, ppm sulfur vs ULSD @ 5 to 10 ppm?) ?, aircraft, trains. I don't see many Enviromental conservatives going to their conferences in HUGE or even small sailing ships! ? Do you? You don't see the anti 1 per center's trying to close down airports to NYC or trying to stop shipping or stopping trains do you? I am sure nobody wonders..... why?
More locally, Chevron is trying to "clean up"/retrofit" 1960's refinery technology for easily 15 years ($ 1 B @ that time) . My Lord , this place was brand new when I was in grade school 50-60 years ago???? !!!!!! Indeed it was an end destination all day field trip, WHEN I was in grade school!! You will NEVER guess who is fighting the clean up/retro fit !!!! The plan was approved by the local city council. It can be easily tied up in litigation for ANOTHER 10 to 15 years. YET, God help us if ANOTHER catastrophe happens due to lack of upgrades !!!! (the last one happened when a hidden pipe corroded and caused a fire, This "relatively small" accident made fuel price spike .50 cents over night and for a long time. ) Who do you think will take the heat for the LACK of upgrades? So does any one think it will be CHEAPER to upgrade 15 years from now (then 30 years of waiting) ?
http://richmondconfidential.org/2014/03/21/chevron-plant-upgrade-promises-more-jobs-and-more-greenhouse-gases/
This crap is really funny and entertaining, if it were not so tragic and frustrating in the real world.
Now I am no oil technology refining professional.
I just see it as: what would you rather have a 1955 to 1960's car or the 2015 Lexus? That is the GOOD news scenario. The bad might be in 10 to 15 years, the 2015 Lexus will be the has been....
I think all those problems are solvable by new filtration techniques and monitoring how the biodiesel blend is done with ULSD. Every change to emissions laws required a ramping up of technology to deal with it. That's how it works. It's called "progress".
It'll get solved, just like in the past. It's not like the world is picking out diesel owners to torment. All of us bear some infringements on our lifestyles all the time. That's what society does to keep existing.
Meanwhile I'm finding gas for $3.33 a gallon and driving an overloaded minivan that's getting between 23 and 26 mpg on the highway. I'm supposed to get excited about "clean" diesel passenger cars?
I'm anxious to see how the new Mazda6 diesel does. This is the first mainline Japanese passenger car to take on the VW TDIs, isn't it?
I know we can count on Audi to expand their diesel line, and BMW has done a great job on that already.
It would be hard to fault Audi. BMW really has started to go from the gas guzzler dumping ground to some really stellar diesel examples. Mazda has done a pretty good job in getting better products to market. It will really have to step up its game (other than a little more torque) to WOW folks in the diesel arena. I think Mazda folks would be happy with a MAZDA diesel. I hope it does not pull a Honda and pull its diesel out at the last minute. To me, two key metrics would be to go from the OCI of 1500 miles to a minimum of 10,000 like VW and MB. AND oil consumption rates to match VW and MB down to 1/4 to 1/2 qt/liter per 30,000 miles (high bar, I know)
I had an interesting conversation with a relative that I haven't talked to (about cars) for a while, who got a new Mazda 3 (hot hatch). ( came from a Mini which literally fell apart before his eyes) He sold it for a VW GTI. He's not a real car guy, but he's a much happier camper with the switch. I don't even breath a word of diesel with this relative.
We agree on that one. Probably why CA started doing smog checks on diesels. Now it costs all of us.
How many engines had premature burnt valves when they got the lead out of gas? I did not own a diesel vehicle until ULSD became available in CA back in 2005. Removing the lead was probably 10 times more beneficial to our health than getting the sulfur out.
In real terms, really the cart before the horse. The legislative, regulatory agencies should fast track (you know, less than biblical generations) the specifications for the TDI that is specified to run up to 100% biodiesel. THEN, cut the free market loose !! Till then, I do not use even 5% biodiesel, the limits of most oems recommendations. To me, that is 12 my's of NO PROGRESS. People can get truly OLD waiting for all the progress of which you speak.
Anyone living in Hawaii is exposed to millions of times more sulfur than any tail pipe emitted ULSD sulfur. YET Hawaii is considered a WONDERFUL place to live. !!!
It's a serious problem on Hawaii. SO2 levels are monitored by health officials and civil defense, and residents with respiratory problems are told to leave the area of high levels of SO2 and healthier citizens are told to limit levels of physical activity.
It's called "VOG" by the way.
RE: Progress. Surely you're glazing over 30 years of tremendous progress in vehicle emissions technology? A Corvette getting 26 mpg and capable of 200 mph isn't progress over a 1980s wheezing Ford Escort? Well, knock me down with a feather.....:)
I am citing CDC statistics on lung cancer rates. It is some of the BEST (lowest) in the nation despite the "serious" problem.
Or perhaps you simply aren't getting it, and that's okay, too.
Truly, you don't or haven't made a case for what you have said. Either and/or both is/are fine. All I did was provide feedback on what you have said. So really, it is about YOU.
That's fantastic, Gary! I am glad to see diesels claiming higher and higher sales percentages as they continue to infiltrate the market. This should encourage further offerings across the spectrum so that they become an option for me, too.
No not at all. One of the seminal things done (70's) was the RLG/PLG lead removal to or aka RUG/PUG. Another, which should have been done at the same time was the sulfur removal for both RUG/PUG AND diesel to ULSD (15 ppm, nominally delivered @ 5 to 10 ppm). We would have had the passenger cars effects of ULSD for 36 more years.
So for example, when ULSD was mandated LATE (36 years LATER) and in late 2006 again LATER than the mandatory implementation date, it dropped the gunk forming potential app 90 to 99% (from LSD @ 500 ppm/ CA @140 ppm) !!! WAY too long in coming !! As you know RUG/PUG is STILL 2 to 18 times dirtier than ULSD @ 30 ppm to 90 ppm. I am sure you SEE the disingenuousness here, even as most do not acknowledge it.
Now keep in mind the 15 ppm is STILL somewhat "artificial" in that biodiesel's ppm is ZERO ppm. For mathematical purposes, we use a "fake" number like ONE (1) ppm sulfur.
So RUG/PUG is easily 30 to 90 TIMES dirtier than biodiesel !!! Really now that puts my droopy [non-permissible content removed] minus- 98% decrease to shame !!!
Well don't shoot the messenger. I'm just citing recommendations from the government of Hawaii. They think it's serious. Besides, lung cancer rates are dependent on an enormous series of complexities, including how much you smoke and what race you are and your genetics.
CDC rates California in the same incidence rate group as Hawaii anyway.
Do you really want to live next to a volcano spewing S02? Ah, the good life!
MIGHT be one reason why I DON"T live in Hawaii ????? (Making new land mass is tough work, I am glad God is doing it and probably not me. ) NOBODY doubts it IS a serious problem. So no .45 cal shot to the messengers head.
Again, it does NOT convert statistically, which you seemly agree with !!!!! For such a BIG deal it does not even rate a footnote !! ??? this would be HUGE academic mistake IF it was. Now it does go without saying that the volcano's S02 is unmitigated?
LOL no footnote on THAT either! Ah, they do have the University of Hawaii, why no notable research on the topic? (please no jokes about being a PART tay school) Thank you in advance !!!! ???
So getting back to diesels and NON Carl Sagan type numbers:
GLK 350, 386 VS 250 B/T, 328 grams per mile (GGE)
So SAD
VW T 420, VWT hybrid 392, VWT TDI 398. grams per mile GGE.
I'm sure there are folks who want to shoot VW for the +8 gram diesel difference over hybrid. So for the $15,000 difference in hybrid vs diesel, I will have to buy $15,000 more in diesel fuel, which at todays prices will give me 3,750 more gals @ 32 mpg =120,000 miles more, not counting the mpg differences between hybrid and diesels. Diesel does post higher numbers than gasser/hybrid.They do not also acknowledge that a diesel hybrid would post even better mpg and GPM (LESS) , not that I would want a diesel hybrid.
No volcanoes mitigate themselves--which is the scary part. We have no control. However we do have control of our own emissions, cumulatively.
Government regulations and actions will always control markets. Why do you think diesels are so popular in Europe?
It is probably an issue for the few people that live in Kona year round. The VOG is pretty much since 1990. We have not spent much time on that side of the island since the early 1990s. The Westerly winds send the VOG to the Western side of the Big Island (Kona Coast). So most of the people are only exposed for the week of their vacation. Still not at all pleasant and not healthy to breathe. I'll stay in Hilo thank you, the Winds are pretty predictible and not likely to change. Just stay up out of the Tsunami zone and you should have a long life in Hawaii. They do still generate a lot of electricity with coal and diesel.
So tell me how volcanic S02 emissions sequesters itself and has no over all effect on Hawaiian air quality? LOL !
We need the same thing here, when CA wildfires cast their Armageddon- like qualities over the whole state. (Sorry to drift back into Carl Sagan like numbers). But then, it does get rid of a lot of weeds.
During the last Yosemite, CA fire, the smog clouds took to hanging out over Tahoe, CA, Reno and Carson City, NV. AND naturally it decides to have a area wide inversion.
Ah, that is not my idea of taking care of itself or sequestering, no matter how "natural". I was up there during Charlie Brown's cloud. All I can say is thank heaven for indoor hydronic heating. Inside, we didn't even smell it. Outside, stifling.
Lots of plants need fire to reseed. Weeds are just plants in the wrong spot. Dandelion salad anyone?
I love the "natural is good" mantra. How about some natural almond flavored cyanide drops in your coffee? What's more natural than cracking dead plants to make "clean" diesel eh?
A volcano does what it does. Someday it'll blow up and take the whole island with it. That's what volcanoes like to do occasionally.
Or it could quiet down. Or it could kick up a fuss and make the island's air quality unbearable.
No sense adding to the problem I always say.
If Yellowstone, WY goes , what will it matter for @ least 12 western states????
In the mean time, how about that Tesla !! ??
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/01/tesla-review-edmunds-elon-musk_n_5641504.html
Meh...a database of one.
If you can afford a $100k EV you can afford a backup vehicle for all the times in the shop... I still say without all the government incentives Tesla would be a dead monkey.
The fans are blaming the problems with our long term tester on the editors doing too many burn-outs. No mention of how a burn-out requires a sunroof replacement.
There are always people that will make excuses for vehicles they love. I was a real fan of the EV concept. As the decades roll by and NO significant improvement in Battery technology, I have lost interest. Tesla is purely a government sponsored experiment. When the tax dollars get chopped and the battery chargers are not maintained and the carbon tax credits are gone. Elon will go back to pushing his rocket ships. Or relaxing on some Caribbean Island he buys.
Judging by high end sales, Tesla owners indeed have a nice backup vehicle. I still don't see Elon's baby actually replacing traditional 80K+ cars, just a new subsidized toy for tech dorks.
To me, a couple of points. Huffington Post does not have a reputation of being a right of center publication. So the fact they published this piece, of another piece (Edmunds.com) which points out deep flaws in the "left of center's" government EV alternate energy policy lead dog "execution" aka" EV related" is noteworthy. CR also gave Tesla THE single highest vehicle rating in its history. But on the other EV hand, they noted huge issues with the (now defunct?) Fisker EV product.
I am not sure why Tesla chose ultra specialty tires for their flag ship vehicle that are "persnickety" @ best. It would be a stretch to say they didn't know its potential for lasting shorter rather than LONGER. To think no one would notice would rate a pinocchio posting.
Prius oem tires are not known to be durable performers either. In all fairness, tire selection is NOT EV related. But, it does collide with realities in the "cost of operations" category.
However, it does make my POORLY rated and H rated tires (that VW CHOSE, TireRack rated it 27/28, thank heaven for another GY tire rated 28th) on my first 03 Jetta TDI, which went 113,000 miles, look like a stroke of penny pinching genius in comparison. It must have have been my perpetual habit of keeping speeds 90 mph and under.
More seriously, I had no hesitation in posting the HPFP issue on the 09 Jetta TDI. VW (in my case) did step up to the (colloquial) plate. I also posted the remediation. To anti diesel or those fence sitting folks, all ahead stop to vilification ! ?
Yet Edmunds.com documents 3 replacements of the EV power train !! Not to mention battery?.
Now in all fairness, I applaud Tesla's " step up to the plate" mentality, especially if it would be true for the "AVERAGE" owner, apart from the fact that Edmunds.com is a known vehicle RATING agency.
OEM tires in general aren't noted for treadwear or performance.
It'll be interesting to see the price point and reliablity numbers for the Model X.
And I'm hoping for the battery plant to be built in NM (but no announcement until we buy a house, please).
My sister whipped into a gas station this afternoon to fill up her Forester. I was dozing in the back seat. After a few minutes she got back in the car and navigated to another set of pumps - nothing but diesel was available at the pump she first drove up to.
I think Tesla will be out of the car business in 3 to 5 years and morph into a utility/battery company.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-keeps-global-lead-over-061230887.html;_ylt=AwrTWfzRUd1TeDAAwBfQtDMD
According to this Bloomberg article, in world wide sales VW is still #2 under Toyota, BUT with the slimmest of margins (5.1 M vs 5.07 M units, 6 months).
I think you may have hit it. Build a battery factory in Reno and clear out of CA. They cannot afford to be replacing drive trains and battery packs. The only profits are credit based.
NV could use the business. Not my idea of a nice place to live/work, but I bet it would suit some of the locals.
Makes sense---all great businessmen are gamblers by nature
I think Tesla will always have HQ in California, just like banks always do in NY. Silicon Valley is a prestigious address and known world-wide for innovation. It's also a great talent pool. Reno is going to be for the drone-workers.
Wouldn't it be great if Musk hired lots of Mexican immigrants and they bought into profit-sharing, and in 20 years they'd buy everyone in Nevada out and make them live in Mexico?
It looks like Musk is trying to extort as much money for his battery factory as possible. Playing all the states against each other. I think it will be a money loser and not contribute much to the economy.
Work at "Project Tiger" began last month and continued 24/7 until last Thursday when it suddenly stopped.
Lance Gilman of the Tahoe Reno Industrial Center said the work stoppage happened at a "natural break" in the site work. Other sources said it coincided with a site inspection by corporate entities and a reported snag in negotiations between the state and Tesla.
The shutdown put 280 people out of work with little warning and no explanation. Some told us they had quit other jobs to sign on after being promised three to five years employment.
http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/Tesla-Confirms-Porject-Tiger-A-Potential-Site-For-Gigafactory-269442121.html
Give me an SUV with 3 rows that's not an $80K MB GL 350 BT.
I'm on the last leg of a summer road trip. So far our Pilot has been driven about 1200 miles in 2 weeks. I'll have the final tally early next week, but right now we are hovering around the 17.5 - 18 mpg mark.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
You can probably get the Audi Q7 TDI for around $70K. Or wait until next year when the VW CrossBlue TDI shows up. 7 passenger SUVs are not high in demand. Though Toyota seems to sell a lot of Highlanders. If you have very small children to stuff into that 3rd row. You may want to switch brands before Honda goes away. From a Honda blog.
The numbers for Honda/Acura are borderline shocking.
Civic down 11%
CRZ down 11% (do they still make it?)
Fit down 3%
Insight down 33% (I think they retired it?)
Crosstour down 43%
Odyssey down 21%
Pilot down 19%
Ridgeline down 21% (dead)
ILX down 20%
RLX down 68% - they sold 208 of them
TL down 62%
TSX down 73%
RDX down 14%
Accord up 7%
CR-V up less than 1%
MDX up 9%
Reno does have a very nice whitewater park right downtown. And they finally buried those diesel train tracks a while back.
I am not fond of Reno proper. I could live in Gardnerville/Minden area. Short drive up the hill to Tahoe. Carson City has great shopping. No income tax. In spite of the high unemployment, the home prices have held high. And no matter how high the elevation, my Touareg TDI runs like a Swiss watch.
I think that even the gassers with the third row are outliers. So a diesel with one (Q7 Audi 7 seat) is even more so. 13 MY Q7's posted short of 16k units. So IF the 18% (TDI's) holds true then we are talking 2,880 (est).
It is too bad that Honda sales seem to be crashing. On the surface of it, the demand for 7+ seating (Odyssey, Pilot) are taking BIG hits. I am not even sure if Honda had diesel options that would bring revival. It is really a shame. I think Honda edges out (in quality /price) Toyota in almost every model, Accord/Camry, Civic/Corolla, CRV/Rav4, Odyessey/Sienna, Pilot/Highlander, etc.
I am glad you are having a good trip ! So given, 18 mpg vs 32 mpg (VW T TDI) you used more like 67 gals vs 38 gals or 29 gal more.
Sidebar (the GLK 250 B/T does not have near the interior volume your Pilot does. I would guess 35 to 37 mpg for 34 gals)
At this stage in driving diesels, my focus is more on the "drivability" of the diesels. I know that when I drive it in the sweet spot (or even not) posting (whatever) mpg will just fall within a very narrow band. (Whatever) Gasser mpg of like models really falls off the radar, except for Edmunds.com postings.
gagrice, that's the nicest thing I've ever heard anyone say about Reno, they could probably increase tourism with your 7-word sentence on a billboard.
do the passat TDI HPFPs self-destruct like in recent jetta VW TDIs? i'll have to read up on it... if VW has fixed that issue from engineering/design viewpoint, it seems likely i'll need to drive 100k or so in one of those passat TDIs before they go out of production. :}
On the TDI's HPFP, the issue is outlier and complicated by the fact the US market Passats ramped up production for 2012 MY.(updated HPFP) In addition the "new and improved" reman-ed replacement HPFP for those 2012 HPFP replacements for the 2012 to 2014 US Passat do not have "100,000" miles on them, except in EXTREME outlier cases. Indeed for the outliers of outliers (assuming AVG 12k to 15k per year) we are talking 30,000 miles, max on the original (but improved) HPFP.
So to draw a parallel, the (my) 09 Jetta TDI had close to 80,000 miles (replaced, cost covered by VW, out of warranty). So for me, 100,000 miles on the reman-ed "new and improved " HPFP (hopefully) won't happen for @ least 180,000 total miles, and if we keep this pace, 5/6 more years for a 10/11 year old car.
In a non diesel related anecdotal update, but HPFP related, a relative.s gasser BMW 3 series HPFP failed last week (3 days ago). It was R/R'ed. BMW did not step up to cover the HPFP failure.
I liked CC more that my wife; oh well, no biggie. Anywhere but Vegas works.
Cheap fuel in S. Virginia today. $3.69 for diesel.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-auto-sales-sizzle-july-helped-discounts-140940700--finance.html
This might outline some context.
So it might be a good time to see if VW is motivated to provide additional customer and dealer incentives, that is of course, for those interested.