Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options
What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
"Cleaning up the sulfur content got rid of most of what used to be that characteristic diesel stink. Implementation of several types of exhaust treatment systems in diesel vehicles got rid of most of the fuel's smog-causing emissions."
Debunking the Alternative Fuels Myths
Yep, very serious defect in VW TDIs. It seems that VW has been replacing these pumps free of charge, and I hope that's the case for you, as this is not a cheap repair.
Slow Diesel News Day
I noticed BMW is advertising and pushing diesels more. They now advertise you can "lease either a 328xi or 328xi" for the same price. There is also a TV spot where they tout the 328xd's stellar performance and its 40 + mpg efficiency.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Slow news diesel day.
Filled the GLK 250 B/T after a full week (7+ days) of commuting, 3/5 drivers , for 35 mpg. (396 miles,11.3 gals). Actually, the results are pretty consistent (in light of the three to 5 drivers) with the other TDI's, aka, 2 to 3 mpg above EPA H ratings (33). The commute DRUDGE typically has three people in the vehicle.
Just to project (being as how it is a slow news diesel day), a 15.6 gal tank should yield app 546 miles or app 10 days, aka 2 (5 day) weeks of DRUDGERY commuting. Of course 40 to 42 mpg in the 09 Jetta TDI is better, albeit 17%+.
Interesting article broad, brushing many levels. I am not sure whether to be incredulous, laugh, shake my head or be in utter awe ! ??????
In any case, the link http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-07-18/vw-is-hungry-fiat-chrysler-is-easy-prey?cmpid=yhoo
On the face of it, that would add M's of world wide sales per year. This would inch VW Corp closer to Toyota's market leading figures. POST merger, if VW can maintain their phenomenal per car profit metric. WOA !!!!!!
Sidebar: This years VW sales have displaced (#2) GM's yearly sales, albeit CLOSE)
I think also the US is glad Fiat/Chrysler is more foreign owned, lessening its Chap 11 risk and the specter of having to (government) bail them out a second time. I am not sure why MB was not able to make a go of it. Chrysler 300 and the Dodge Sprinter are two obvious MB successes.
$24B in cash on hand. wow.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
VW with a 2.2% US market share will hardly rate a yawn. Most will see it as a little below watching paint dry.
Not so sure. VW is doing great in China and giving GM a run for the money. I bet you can sell a lot of diesels in China.
VW has to be concerned about how poorly they are doing here in the US. One thing that would help tremendously would be adding a line of pickups (Hello, Dodge!).
Ram alone would push VW past Toyota. VW WW sold more than GM last year and were very close on Toyota's tail. Jeep would be worth having. Not so sure about FIAT. Though last I checked FIAT is number one in Brazil ahead of VW. If VW were to bring their Amarok TDI PU to the USA, I would trade my Nissan Frontier gas hog in a NY second. Toyota and Nissan do well in that segment, not sure what they are waiting for?
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/03/05/vw-amarok-pickup-may-come-to-us/
Well here is the thing, IF VW removes the US Passat made in USA restriction only for US market restriction AND amps up production for the China market, VW might market it to Chinese consumers as the version made for the US market. So what do you say? Or punning to ya, what does that have to do with the price of tea in ah... CHINA?
Not that many folks here care, but the Chinese LOVE American made/owned products !! It might also qualify as a USA EXPORT !!!! (you know BALANCE of PAYMENTS) The CUV is also destined to be built @ the same factory, ala $ 900 M TN factory investment.
It is a bit weird that it might take a GERMAN company making things in the USA to actually EXPORT an "AMERICAN MADE" (German) product. I'd be hammering the Congress for those tax credits and write offs, if I were the CEO of VWA. 800,000 "AMERICAN MADE" units, here we go !!!
(from app 150,000 units) Either way, (keep it just for US markets or export some) it's a win win. Do it correctly, its a WIN WIN WIN !
Yes, the RAM could use DOUBLE the productive capacity of the factory that makes its 3.0 L (Italian) TDI ! They have gone on record producing 50,000 units per year.
Can you imagine the line for an Amarok? Amarok TDI !!!!????
That is not so far fetched. BMW is the number one USA exporter of American made vehicles. I think a nicely appointed Passat TDI would be great competition for the Chinese made Buick. The real kicker is all those empty cargo ships going back to China would make the shipping costs low. China should welcome USA made products to make it look like they are good trading partners.
On a slow news diesel day for the VW T TDI with app 735 miles, the low fuel lamp lit, as I was going to fuel for the weekend (got to love serendipity?) . Fueling @ 736 miles posted 30.79 mpg for 23.9 gals/26.4 gal tank. This would project out to 77 miles of travel left.
This is WAY TMI, but I happened to notice the green silicon hose cover (diesel dispensing) had the "pressure" flap. However, " the now anti wrong hose" (so you can not fuel with Rug/Pug) rendered the flap functionally USELESS. Even at that were little to NO fumes.
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-luxury-diesels-20140719-story.html#page=1
Interesting Edmunds.com reference in a diesel luxury sedans article from the L.A Times.
Funny note about nav not being standard on the MB. Technically it isn't, but virtually 100% of dealer stock will have P1, which includes nav (and many other features). You'd have to special order a car without it, and you'd regret that order come resale time. The author must not have much background in these cars.
I did not realize that MB had dropped the E350 Bluetec in favor of the E250 BT.
The real test is how they are selling. MB still have a slight overall lead on BMW in the luxury market. What percentage are diesels? Both MB and BMW seem tight lipped on that subject. Must be good as both have extended their lineup of diesels.
Yep, it's a 2014 thing. Pros and cons for the 4-cylinder - the 6 is silky smooth for a diesel and feels effortless, but the 4 has better mpg and nearly the same power, but maybe loses a little NVH at the same time. I haven't driven an E250, but have heard one at idle, and the extra noise is minute. If cash flow looks good when my lease is up, I am going to consider an E250. I haven't heard sales mix for any of these premium middle cars for any year.
I am also toying with the notion of buying used, with CPO warranty. Say 2011 S350 Bluetec, fairly rare car, even more so how I'd want it optioned, brutal depreciation means used car fun. But, I kind of like the idea of leasing, as I won't be able to get attached to the car. One forever car is enough.
You are correct on the (not standard) Nav for the MB. I have the "wired"for nav option, san nav. So in effect, I would not "suffer" on resale, as one can buy a used or new navigation, IF that is a must have for a new buyer.
A GLK BT we test drove had that Nav wiring option. It was for an after market NAV. I was not excited by the NAV in the ML350 BT we test drove. Then as much as I like the electronics in the T-Reg, the software from NavTeq is crap. I am dealing with VW now to get the latest for free. As the version we have is missing freeways that are 5 years old. The NavTeq software in the Sequoia was even worse. Also many times the routing is suspect. Most places we went on our vacation, I would map our route on Google and rarely does the Nav present the best route. A Nav with dynamic Google maps would be the best way to go. Of course in the case of Toyota, that would mean NO $500 charge to update.
I am beginning to think almost ALL GPS's have issues of being too complicated and with higher rather than lower percentage error rates. In that sense, not ready for prime time. I also passed on the nav for the Touareg. I use a "Costco" portable special. Even with free web up dates, it did not recognize a major freeway (as a freeway) in the middle of the (Nevada) high desert, ie., calling for a U turn. So in a pejorative sense, a remark might be " you get what you pay for buddy (cheapskate) :@ ". In isolation, one might take that to heart. All participants then switched to their smart phone applications (4 now GPS) all but one did not get it right. The one that got it "right" did an alternative plot to another KNOWN place, close to the destination and one could extrapolate the rest (the correct EXIT was the nexus) .
Heading for Area 51 eh?
My biggest complaint is not offering the most direct route most of the time. Second is not recognizing cities when you key them in. Yet if you put in the zip code they will come up correctly. Very poor database search engine. Not sure if that is NavTeq or the RNS 850 Nav unit.
It depends on the model. You'll find tons of C, CLA, and GLK without a full COMAND system, but anything higher than that will be virtually impossible to find. So yes, those three mentioned models won't suffer, as they are common without it. But I'll wager the resale value hit on an E without nav will be greater than the cost of P1.
Your car is pre-wired for "Becker Map Pilot", which is a version of the factory nav. I've never actually seen it.
The MB system has a vintage looking interface (but nice HD screens) and not the fastest for data entry, but it is beautiful compared to anything in a Toyota, and that same cheapo system is used all the way up to the Lexus ES, I think.
Audi and BMW have nice enough systems, and offer diesel models.
Indeed, I was only referring to the GLK 250 B/T. For those that might be interested, (line item) 508 Becker MAP PILOT pre-wiring (sans the unit). The local MB dealership quotes app $600. retail for the Becker UNIT option. I have seen used (online) for $250.
For the higher ended MB's, as you say in another post depreciation is BRUTAL.
The diesel nexus, in my case is the MB's 2.1 L, T TDI, 7 speed A/T, paddle shifters, and suspension train. I have less than 7k miles, but I am really enjoying those components.
For any to all of the other stuff that may be available, I am sure folks that order them enjoy, want, have to have and/or need those options.
So for example, the attention assist (take a break, drink coffee, etc ) is not geared for me specifically. It is ANNOYING !! Now when I do find that when I am REALLY getting tired, it does .... NOT come on !!!!! ?????? IF it were working for ME, I would love its annoying aspects. Now some would find that distressing to DANGEROUS, as the onboard computer is programmed to read the drivers' sensory cues and functions warnings accordingly. !! ????
Upshot: I would have also clicked that delete, especially if it were an extra cost option.
Edmunds.com indicts if the (ALL) option list is requested, options would be app $25k more than I paid. From what I can tell, almost all to 100% have NOTHING to do with its' 2.1 L, T TDI diesel.
Diesel related is MB's MINUS - $500 (MSRP $39,480-$38,980) . CHEAPER for the diesel option, 2.1 L T TDI.
LOL! The truth is out there !
Is this a not too or all too common issue with GASSERS, i.e. Suburu example only?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/07/18/subaru-oil-burner-lawsuit/12859865/
Subarus seem to have that reputation in general although mine only used two quarts in ~40,000 miles. My sister recently had to add ~2 quarts to her '05 Forester. Thanks for the link - posted.
Perhaps the experience/s (320,000 miles) with diesels is warping me, keeping me out of touch or spoiling me about the (gasser) oil consumption issues.
The 03 Jetta TDI, even after 187,000 miles still consumes 1/4 to 1/2 L after 30,000 miles OCI. The 09 TDI is more like 1/2 L after 30,000 miles and the 3.0 L TDI is an oil hog @ 1/2 L after 25,000 miles. Really this might not be a BIG deal as the sump holds more than 9 qts. vs 4.5 to 5 qts for the smaller TDI's. So percentage wise, consumption is actually LESS. @ 6,200 miles (5,000 miles tire rotation) I was told the 14 2.1 L T TDI is @ ZERO oil consumption. It might be a BIT of a head scratcher in that part of break in is " hammering it" correctly.
I would probably pitch a fit (well express deep concern), if diesel oil consumption were more like gassers.
Last vehicle I owned that used oil excessively was a 1974 Dodge van with 318 V8. Used a quart every 1000 miles. Subaru is having a good sales run. They better nip this in the bud before it kills their sales.
I really hate burning oil - the old van didn't use any. My theory is all the nasty combustion byproducts kept the oil level up. I added a quart to the new old van on the last road trip, which was irritating since it was due for an oil change but I wanted to wait for my guy in town to do it.
For how much "synthetic oil" costs anymore (nexus here, most diesels use synthetic oil) , one opaque factor is whatever ones engine selection uses. So using one example of 1 qt per 1k miles (gasser) and Mobil One (5.2 per qt) = $156 per 30,000 miles. This alone would be WAY more than AdBlue, etc etc. Upshot one should factor in its extra cost.
Yep, oil's not cheap, not to mention the cost of the filters and the expense of having someone do it; plus it's a dirty job.
All the more reason to get an EV.
The signal when EV's are ready for prime time: when services like Uber, Zip car has mostly to all EV's in their fleets. Rental cars companies have FEW hybrids. Shoot even NYC cabs have a decade+ old resistance to switching to a higher % of HYBRIDS. Acid test for a decades old design? Why no to few LONDON hybrid cabbies? So IF EV stands the test of time, give it 25 years.
See a lot of diesel rentals or diesel cabs do you?
US cites and municipalities are anti diesel and pro hybrid, EV !! Need I say more?
The mayor of NYC tried to FORCE rules to make taxicabs ALL hybrid (defacto there are no diesel hybrids, currently) . I am sure it comes as no surprise dah mayor didn't try to force diesel taxi cabs? In any case those rules were trashed by the NY courts.
EU cabs have far more diesel % 's.
I don't buy it - if it was cheaper to maintain a fleet of diesel cars, the rental companies would be all over it. I'm catching a cab at LAX in ~10 hours. From past experience there's a 50/50 chance it'll be a Prius.
Now if I were catching a bus there's a 50/50 chance it'll be diesel, even in smog laden LA. (Tthat could happen next trip with the new $8 "flyer" service to Santa Monica).
There is literally nothing to buy (figuratively also) ! In addition, diesels are also outliers ! I have nothing to gain or lose with whatever those entities do. It does however, highlight the eviron con's disingenuous. Cab fares are much too high, but hey, that is one reason why I do not take cabs.
But yes, tell us what shows up to pick you up ! Hope you have a good trip.
I'd take a photo but won't have a camera (or my Edmunds chair, lol).
Probably the real bet is whether it'll be a regular Prius or a Prius C.
Not likely VW would be offering fleet deals on their diesels to the rental car companies. Not when GM/F/C etc practically give cars away. VW is a FOR profit company unlike Governmetn Motors.
Ran into my salesman the other day dealing with the NAV update. He said no way would I ever get the deal I got last year on a T-Reg TDI. They have 4 in the pipeline and the lowest priced one is $57k. That is $9k more than I paid for the same vehicle. And NO zero percent financing this year. VW is selling 30% diesels now and my dealer has less than 20% diesel in their inventory. Not a likely scenario for selling to rental agencies. Not like the EU where you can rent a great diesel car. Here you are stuck with crap gas cars.
Most of our city buses run on Natural Gas. The ones in the burbs are diesel.
Speaking of Hybrids. A friend had his Sonata in for a bit of body damage. He rented a new Sonata Hybrid. He said it felt like a slug compared to his Sonata. I think he has the SE. I know it is fairly plush with NAV and leather. He is 82 and goes back and forth to New Mexico every couple months. 42,000 miles in less than two years. He loves that Hyundai more than the Town Car he traded in on it.
Gary, I ended up renting a Sonata Hybrid when I visited CA back in May. It took some getting used to (my first experience with a hybrid). Overall, I think I averaged about 33MPG for the week. About evenly split between city and highway. Not bad for a car of its size.
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and let us know! Post a pic of your new purchase or lease!
MODERATOR
2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
I am glad the VW T TDI purchase was of VALUE (multiple reasons) to you, BASED on what you wanted/needed and/or both.
So for example, VW Jetta hybrid weighs 3312 #'s, gasser 2881#'s or 431 #s more. So (in VW's case) driving a hybrid is like driving a gasser with almost three (2.87) more 150# adults (no fat jokes here, folks).
Diesels are @ 3210 #'s. We all have been acquainted with diesels ability to deal better with weight over gassers and gasser hybrids.
INTERESTING take on hybrids by CR.
https://autos.yahoo.com/news/honda-accord-hybrid-overpromises-underdelivers-160013998.html
..."All the hybrids we’ve tested have fallen short of their official estimates to one degree or another."...
..."Since hybrid systems usually have a bigger effect on city fuel economy, the Accord Hybrid may sound especially enticing to city drivers. But in our city test, we found the car gets only 33 mpg, compared with 50 mpg on the window sticker."...
Finally the pinochio nature shows up and by the very same folks who have been telling you it's the right thing to do. !! ??
..."The U.S. Energy Information Administration recently reported that improving fuel economy standards for vehicles actually produce diminishing returns in fuel savings."...
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/07/21/cafe-standards-diminishing-value-may-hurt-auto-sal.aspx
They do say that diesel is more expensive. They conveniently leave out one reason is because the FED, State, County and local governments charge more TAXES on diesel. If they charged the same, diesel would actually be CHEAPER !! ?? IF they charged less than RUG/PUG, dah CHEAPER STILL. I guess to be a government editor does not require much thought in logical consequences.
Well perhaps then what we should do is raise CAFE standards only for the currently gas-hungry cars and leave the rest alone?
That would be like looking through the binoculars through the wrong ENDS, albeit depending on one's realities or more correctly distortions. They also leave out that better fuel mileage puts the major hurt on gas TAXES !!
UPSHOT: By legislative, laws,regulations, enforcement, "EXTREME' mileage cars (25 mpg +) EXIST so gas GUZZLERS can be sold in much greater numbers, volume, and percentages. Toyota Prius @ 45 mpg and what does a fully loaded Toyota Tundra get in reality? I am sure they would have you believe they sell more Prius than the stuff that gets way less fuel mileages.
Well if that article is correct, then the greatest benefits to fuel savings lie in regulating the gas guzzlers. That would stop manufacturers from piggy-backing off their high mileage cars.