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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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Well, I can't give real solid numbers since I've never run the car at a steady 60 till the battery drained to truly measure the efficiency, but based on the range I lose when I spend some time on the highway, I'd guesstimate a 20%-25% hit driving 60 vs 50.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Here is an interesting take on REAL world mileage for the Leaf. In fact they hit my round trip to Costco right on the button at 13 miles each way. So figuring only charging as recommended approximately 16 KW charge at 37 cents per, I can travel, MAYBE 26 miles for $5.92 in electricity. HMMMM, I get an easy 27 MPG at 75 MPH on $4 worth of diesel in my heavy luxurious SUV.
Real World Leaf Range 27 - 38 miles
http://www.plugincars.com/real-world-leaf-range-27-38-miles.html
Thanks for the posting. The agenda behind the question is pretty simple, to serve as one (anecdotal) real world data point.
Using Gagrice's following (yours) post, E is .2277 cents per mile driven.
On his (ULSD), .148 cents. Mine (ULSD) would be, .129 (31 mpg) , .1053 (38 mpg) , .0976 (41 mpg) , .08 cents (50 mpg) per mile driven.
It would appear that even common folks are starting to understand higher fuel prices are both transparent and opaque multiple taxations on all folks. They also understand that even as they consume less, they are penalized for the efforts.
And that is the reality. They want US to use less natural resources and when you do they penalize US. Going Green is Not all it is cracked up to be. It is raising our COL in far too many ways. With little gain in cleaner air and water. We will all be like Detroit if the ECO Nuts are allowed to continue they destruction of our economy.
By all appearances, they did a bang up job (in a slow mo DEVASTATING WAY) dismantling DETROIT, MI. This was a wildly alive 144 sq miles center of American industrial might and EXPANDING. Today 44 sq miles of "inner city" is fallow, abandoned, off the tax rolls and various states of decay. Any number of OTHER cities (rural areas are not exempt also) are in various states of decay.
The problem with rising fuel prices is that it sucks HUGE amounts of money out of the economy as a whole.
Well the golden rule seems to be that the easiest-to-get-at energy sources are taken first, and then as things tighten up, they go for resources that are harder and harder to extract---hence energy becomes more and more expensive over time.
For sure, that is probably the design !! ???
The current issue seems to be the plethora of the various interest groups, do NOT want to alter that business model in the least. Energy can be a whole HELL of a lot cheaper ! Almost every legislative and regulatory action is designed to keep the prices high and higher. Governments make more monies and @ greater percentages than the OIL Companies !!!!!!!!!!!!
Leslie Stahl, CBS (she hardly would be mistaken for a tea party conservative), ask the Sheik in charge of a HUGE Saudi Arabian 50 year old "oil FIND" center, how much it cost per barrel of oil and his HIGH estimate was ...$2.00 per barrel (42 gal in a barrel)
Anyone can google this program and I have posted it on this thread in the past. The Oil Kingdom, pt 1 & 2, Dec 2008.
I'm reminded of the Edmunds article on the Telsa. They can smoke the tires at will, but found out that it reduces the range by about 1 mile per second that the acceleration is applied that heavily.
No biggie, just scrape up $6,000 and get a new battery.
Nissan Prices Leaf Battery Replacement at $5,500
New neighbors from back east just moved in for good; first time I've known that they have a Prius (other trips they've come in their RAV4 pulling a trailer). Asked them if they liked the Prius and would they buy another. Answer - "er, this is our third". Then they pointed out the parking lot ding made by a Hummer, lol.
Nobody tells oil companies what to do.
So you need to buy a new battery every 60,000 miles. That adds about 10 cents a mile. Many gas and diesel cars can beat that not counting the high cost of electricity. I wonder how many people with a Leaf get their electricity for 12 cents or less per KWH. Go diesel and you will not get stuck using AAA so often.
Still guys it seems as if Hybrids have won the perception wars. Like I have said I have owned diesels and realize they have advantages. But I also hang out with people in my local green coalition. When I was looking for a replacement for my truck half of my friends pointed to their hybrids as the only answer. I didn't need a hybrid because I don't drive than much any more but when I researched the same sites they researched here is what I found. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31226&id=31767&id=33819&id=34489 Now after looking at the comparisons you can click on energy and environment it shows annual fuel consumption and emissions for the vehicles I see the most. Right or wrong this is the perceptions we get here at least in my area. Like I said these reports by the EPA or government sites have to be addressed if diesel is ever going to make inroads in the market in the US. Just my opinion.
Hybrids won the perception wars? I would say not even close !
In the context of the Prius' main mission: to let Toyota sell many more percentage and number of gasser autos, trucks, SUV's, CUV's, etc. AND they are WAY more profitable. THOSE emit far more emissions with mpgs all over the place !!!!!! (as if I needed to say that) !!!!! So in that context, I would agree with you. The other 2 of the big three of course have their own competitors.
Another major comparison disadvantage is Prius has NEVER been offered in a diesel hybrid.
My take is IF it were, the diesel hybrid would sell % and number wise way more than the gasser hybrid. Lastly, it is hard to break the RUG/PUG "addiction" if you continue to use RUG/PUG. !! ??? However, you are correct when you say it is "just my (your) opinion." As long as you are happy with your purchase/s, they are your dollars and that is all that really matters.
Don't discount that you would probably be drummed out of the (Corps) local green coalition if you BOUGHT a diesel. Not to worry VW makes Jetta in 5 configurations hybrid , TDI, turbo gasser 1.8 L , turbo gasser 2.0 L , gasser. So again to state the obvious, choices are WAY more than Prius'.
As you probably know, VW makes a Touareg hybrid. Emissions are virtually identical against the Touareg TDI, albeit, hybrid is 3 grams per mile MORE. Statistically it is a virtual toss up. In terms of fuel consumption vs diesel, dirtier. That is unless you subscribe to burning more is mo betdah !! So to say these issues have not been addressed or ignored is not close to being true.
Here is a Passat TDI vs Lexus 300 H and Touareg TDI vs Hybrid. http://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34481&id=33756&id=33611&id=33945
So which hybrid truck did you get?
But I didn't get another truck. I have bought my first small car in 14 years.
And I did look at the vehicles you listed and see the Lexus is the "greenest" of the 4. Like I said before I know many diesels get great mileage. Still you may consider absolute mileage as number one on your list and someone else might see tailpipe emissions as number one.
Like I said I believe if you asked the average buyer what they think of when you say "green" vehicle they will say hybrid, plug in hybrid or EV. That is the perception war.
By your own definitions, it does not convert (to realities) ! Hybrids (of all stripes) are far less than 2% of the PVF. It is almost immeasurable !!! They are also the( heir apparent, officially, unofficial ) national policy !! So if this is correct, http://green.autoblog.com/2012/09/12/hybrids-still-account-for-fewer-than-2-of-new-vehicles-sold/ then each year adds .00126% per year, optimistically.
Diesels have been seen in a far less favorable light. Needless to say EPA, et al., wishes they would go away. They are less than 5% of the PVF.
So if the trend continues, it will take hybrid 20+ years to catch up with the diesel passenger vehicle fleet. The underlying assumption of course would be diesel sales do not increase during that time frame.
HEVs look pretty successful on this chart:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_vehicles_in_the_United_States#mediaviewer/File:Cumulative_US_HEV_Sales_by_year_1999_2009.png
They've hit the 3 million mark as of end of 2013.
Diesels aren't doing so bad either, but not quite the pace of the hybrids.
Diesel car and SUV registrations increased from 640,779 in 2010 to 796,794 at the end of 2012 – a 24.34 percent increase. During this same period, hybrid car and SUV registrations increased from 1,714,966 to 2,290,903 – a 33.58 percent increase. In contrast, the total car and SUV registrations in the U.S. increased by just 2.75 percent during the same period. (Source: Polk)
Again if the 3 M mark is/was correct with a PVF population of 257.5 M ( 2011 FARs of NHTSA) hybrid population is .0117% (a little more than 1%) Again, diesels are @ app 5%. I am sure they have VIN (sort) designators that can make short work of data base categories, but they are not letting on.
I jut heard a funny take on CNBC on why the demand for cars are "booming" (some predict 16 M units for 14 MY) . Folks really don't care about the "weightier" topics. They just want to upgrade the electronics (bluetooth, Smart phone plug in, flash drive, IPOD, IPAD, computer plug in movies on demand, news, cameras, lane management systems, adaptive C ruse Control, concierge reservations, etc, etc.) , aka, they don't want CD players or TAPE players !!!!
My take is one can get a pretty good high end sound system for 20,000 to 100,000 dollars. 
Hybrids scored about 3% market share in 2014, actually down from 2013 by a bit, even though the number of hybrid models offered is higher in
Diesel cars are about 1% I think market share, although they have had quarterly spurts that exceed that. Diesel cars AND light trucks equal about 3% market share.
So yeah, there is no clear cut winner here but I think hybrids are perceived as "greener".
And That was my only point. I can see hybrids just by looking down my street on in the parking lots of the malls here and in Orange County. I only know one TDI owner. Exactly the same number of people as I know with a Leaf. In fact I drive so little a year that I considered a Leaf. The chief advantage was I would have the range to make it to my Sister in law's house and back on the same day.
When I was doing my research on getting a small car to replace the Tahoe and Travel trailer I found I fall in the circle that would not drive enough to cover the additional premium for a Hybrid or Diesel. So I looked to JD powers for dependability ratings and the advice of my mechanic to
Should have added to get his advice.
@boaz47, the edit window is now four hours.
When I get a new car I want the tech. MPG is important but I want all the airbags, lane control safety kind of stuff, backup cams, MP3/USB slots, yada, yada.
LOL ! CNBC must have interviewed you ?
Funny thing about that. It used to be very simple to upgrade the “head unit” (in dash receiver / radio / tape player / CD player) in your car. The car companies have made it harder and harder to do so, integrating that “head unit” into more and more parts of the complete car electronics / control package. You have to assume they did so to encourage the new car buyer to spend $4k more on the “EX-L” package, paying for things they don’t want just to get the upgraded sound system with SiriusXM, Bluetooth, etc.
That's why the idea of a Prius is fun. All sorts of dashboard readouts to play with. Don't really care if the car is a four banger or six cylinder or if it has a 9 speed transmission or CVT.
It's nice finally being in the 21st century with the "new" '09 Caravan. Four power ports, side curtain airbags and miles to empty selection on the odometer - stuff like that. No slot for my USB sticks though.
Switch to the mini guns Mr Zulu, we are going in HOT !!! Take NO prisoners !!!
More seriously, than on line combat computer games: They are seemingly adding technology to encourage more "DRIVE" time when most folks want less to even NO drive time. With all that current draw, I am thinking I want integrated ( high efficiency) solar panel/s in the roof/hood/trunk and battery storage with alternate electric climate control and 200 amps !!! !!!
MORE POWER AW AW AW !!!!
Even more seriously, we have been able tho turn (WASTED) commute time of app 3 hours per day (1.5 hours one way) into (PRODUCTIVE) WORK time !! (up to 9 man hours) This really cuts down wasted time easily 3 hours. Over a months time more like 66 hours, a years time? 792 hours !!!
Off topic, the funnest thing I have done on a SOS/DD side trip was to use 3 GPS's to triangulate a location for a GPS that did not have the freeway we were using in its data base. Then of course, 3 to 4 phones rang at once.!! So after arriving @ the destination, we need to decide what YELPed sight seeing and/or restaurant we want to go !!! We got roped into fee parking, but luckily YELP put a 4.5 star hole in the wall 35 steps to the left !!! Ah, .... it doesn't end.
lol, and it's helping drive the market too. Heck, you know there's a percentage of people out there who buy new cars just so they can pair their new phone with their car.
I see far more Prius than VW TDIs being in CA. What I did notice is they are few and far between in the small towns across the USA. Almost non existent in the Midwest where the D3 still reigns supreme.
I have recommended the Prius to people that drive mostly around the city. One person I recommended get a Prius in 2009 now has a 2012 Prius. He traded to get a lower monthly payment. Still a rough riding noisy little beast. Different strokes for different folks. Life is too short to spend it in a Prius.
Thanks, it has been a while since I posted here. Been off traveling and as they say, life gets in the way.
Indeed that is what can happen when only mpg is the main priority.
gagrice,
I am sure a lot of it is regional. And I wouldn't be surprised if Southern California is the Mecca for Hybrids and maybe more specifically Civic and Prius. Some may be infrastructure because not every station sells diesel. Though I did see a CNG Honda last weekend and wondered where they got GNG?
Of that there can be no doubt. CA has roughly 24 M registered vehicles or 9.3% of the nations registered vehicles (257.5 M) .
Well, for a little Midwestern town, there are a quite a few Prii here. At least three, lol. Really surprising in light of the GM influence (Buicks reign supreme), not to mention the 200 inches of snow we got last year.
There's at least one TDI in town, and of course lots of oil burning plow pushers.
Not surprising as the UP is mostly old Hippies and Eco nuts run out of the Michigan Mitten. From my debates with Rocky and other hardcore UAW types, I would think you would be risking your life in anything but Detroit Iron driving in So Michigan.
Bet you won't miss that 200 inches of snow next Winter.
Seems more of a hook and bullet subsistence crowd. Lots of motor heads.
It's much nicer when you can drive to it.
The chart is showing the specs for the 2012 Passat. I've sat in both vehicles and the rear seat of the Passat is much larger.
Did a tank full around the area. Did some more aggressive break in's. Kept it under 90 mph. For 428 miles 12.3 gals, it posted 34.8 mpg. ( for an over all tank full drop from the last posting)
What would it take for ME to buy a diesel car?
A more aggressive lease program from VW Financial on the Passat TDI. After a very favorable 57% residual & .00043 money factor (1.032%) in June, VW dropped the residual 1% to 56% & raised the money factor to .00102 (2.448%) for July. I don't need a car until September anyway, so who knows what will happen between now & then.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I am sure there is an over all plan, but I am not privy to it, other than to say it appears more like a month to month, deal to deal ad hoc type of deal making. So yes, I would just stay on their sales/leasing manager call list. They might even tailor a specific cars' terms to what they know of what you want.
@ruking1
Yes, they change lease numbers and programs month to month depending on how well the cars sold or didn't sell. This month they are giving away a $1000 Pre-Paid Master Card. Next month there might be some sort of cash incentive. I'm not buying now anyway. My lease is up at the end of September so I've got time. If Labor day comes and goes, I'll wait. I can even let the lease expire and wait even more because I have another car to drive.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
You might mention to the sales staff that "gee, VW sales were down 22% in June and you guys aren't dealing yet?"
Volkswagen’s Sales Disaster Continues (247wallst.com)
OK, so this is good for me:) Like I said. I'll just have to wait it out:)
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Looks to me like VW is giving Audi first rights on the TDI engines and they are doing a bang up job of selling them across their lineup. If you are VW would you rather sell a VW TDI or an Audi. Last I checked VW was more profitable than GM and Toyota combined. If they can sell all the diesels they build in China and the EU, why waste them in the 3rd World USA where people expect more for less? Selling a Golf TDI in the EU is far more profitable than selling them here.
June sales mix for Audi TDI models: Audi A6 TDI at 18.2% on 398 vehicles sold; Audi A7 TDI at 13% on 89 vehicles; A8 TDI at 17.9% on 105 vehicles; Audi Q5 TDI at 15.6% on 627 vehicles, and for the Audi Q7 TDI at 31.5% on 450 vehicles; with an overall mix of 14.9% on 1,692 total TDI sales for June.
Audi is the big gorilla in the VW room:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304914904579436621769480200
I don't think VW brass are as worried as some of the pundits:
“Our core models, the Passat and Jetta, continue to show strong demand in the market, particularly for our TDI clean diesel powertrains,“ said Mark McNabb, chief operating officer, Volkswagen of America. “With the launch of the much-anticipated 2015 Golf GTI, as well as the upcoming introduction of the all-new 2015 Golf TSI and even more fuel efficient diesel engines, we are confident Volkswagen will be back on the shopping list for more customers.”
The Chattanooga-built Passat totaled 7,222 units delivered for the month. In June the Passat TDI, the only clean diesel in the midsize sedan segment, delivered 2,316 clean diesels or 32.1 percent of total Passat sales. This marks the best year-to-date for Passat TDI® Clean Diesel.
This from a Lexus poster:
The way that Audi has pummeled over Acura and Infiniti in two years is nothing short of remarkable. Congrats to them on a job well done with solid products and great marketing/advertising. Sadly, Infiniti and Acura have neither, and the numbers are clear proof.
He didn't mention the fact that BMW and MB have knocked Lexus off their throne the last few years. Audi has a ways to go, but the luxury market belongs to the Germans. I have to think that their diesel offerings have played a role in that dominance.
Funny first comment in this story on site today.
2015 Audi A3 Stealing Customers From Toyota and Honda
VW has been spinning US sales stuff for three years now, but they don't seem to have hit the magic formula. Yeah, they are making money but they want to be number one in worldwide sales. I like the way they are positioned though when (if?) the world economy picks up a bit.
I think the only reason GM showed any sales increase is the huge discounts they are giving to get rid of inventory. Ford and Honda are both down for June. And take a look at the sales of Honda EV/Hybrids. Totally in the toilet. I think thems that wants them, have got them. Even Numero Uno Prius is down over 11% for June and -10.9% for the year. And of course they scrapped the RAV-EV again. The big movers are MB, BMW, Audi and Subaru.
MB & BMW don't seem to like bragging about their diesel sales. Yet the GLK had an increase of 34% last month. I cannot imagine people getting excited over the V6 gasser when the 4 cylinder diesel will blow it into the weeds and get well over 30 MPG doing it. For $500 less than the V6 gasser.
You were clear that you will buy in 2 months (Sep). Being on the (call/deal) list will let you draw a bead on the deal/s when you ARE ready. Stever makes good examples' point.
Or just wait for the end of the year "quota" sales.
Truly it does sum up the perception/s ! It has been "EARNED" over @ least 2 decades. :@
VW Corp would be wise to chip away as AGGRESSIVELY as possible @ this perception. I would dare say to become more (perceptive and in reality, as) reliable, durable and known for customer service as Lexus. They have already out gunned them (Toyota and Honda) in the product line/s.
VW's warranties are better than they used to be (I remember when they were 24/24). But an easy way to get on people's radar would be to out-Kia Kia and Hyundai. And keep improving the dealer network (it sounds like they are on track with that, at least anecdotally).
@stever
I hear that. My sister had a 2000 Jetta GLS VR6 with the 2 year/24K warranty that included maintenance. What a nightmare that car was. Literally a week after the warranty was up, we were on the hook for new ignition coils. 2 years later they issued a recall and she was able to get the money back.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD