What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

We also have an interesting set of circumstances in that of a 215 miles "winter" journey, the 10 to 11% of the miles are prone to real snow and ice and either up to or down from higher altitude mountain roads (7,300 ft). So really snow tires or even chains would be "necessary" for app 10-11% of each leg.

ateixeira

I like that all Foresters and Outbacks are AWD.

Other makes offer the option but usually force you to compromise packaging or you can't get a manual or even both.

Audi is close, available on most.

plekto

Note that 4WD and AWD are not interchangeable. AWD is largely useless in actual snow other than to get you unstuck or moving again. The only exceptions that I know of are full-time AWD systems like Subaru and Audi have.

Otherwise, get real 4WD.

The 2013 Rav4 is AWD and not 4WD. Toyota pulled a fast one on us there.
The cheapest 4WD that I know if is the Jeep Patriot as it has a diff lock and can be put into full-time AWD (AWD with a diff lock OR that has dual transfer cases is roughly equivalent). The older RAV4s had that as well, which made them a favorite of many in the winter.

As for a 4Runner? 4WD or just wheel yourself into that retirement home already.

stever

"Perhaps the biggest big surprise to us is how much we dig the new Ecodiesel V6 power plant. And we're frankly floored that our calculations suggest a 35,000-mile payback time relative to the Hemi V8. If you plan to keep yours longer, why wouldn't you?"

2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee First Drive

ruking1

I am glad you added to the discussion.

If not for the CA chain control requirements, in all likelihood I would have NOT gotten (another) 4WD, even as you know the TLC's are. Even less so is the need for AWD. (for my .02cents of course) Many see either and or both as wanted and needed options. Depending on what vehicles one choses, in some cases neither are options... really.

ateixeira

Chrysler - Ecodiesel
GM - Ecotec
Ford - EcoBoost

Ford has done the best marketing so far, lets see.

35k miles is a quick break even if they prove reliable.

crkyolfrt

AWD is largely useless in actual snow other than to get you unstuck or moving again.

I doubt you intended to say this as literally as it is read? It's a contradiction to be sure..

Any greater than 2 wheel drive system, no matter how it is configured or dumbed-down clutching engagement percentage, certainly can and does help prevent getting stuck, and make the difference climbing your steep drive home everyday after a long tiring day at work and unloading the groceries from the car to the door rather than making numerous trips carrying them up from the bottom of your drive. And also not being able to even plug the car in that night for the cold start the next morning...(my drive is 700' long).

And if it gets "you unstuck or moving again" that sure isn't useless in my books.

I have had practically every AWD, 4WD system there is on my hill in very very challenging conditions..even my bros Audi A8 one winter, and while some are better than others, every single system gets the car up the hill in 12" of fresh powder, or 6" of wet heavy mild mush...conditions that leave a 2 WD or FWD, completely out of its element.
Another condition example...after a fairly average winter swing conditions of snow, traffic packed, more snow, traffic, then a mild spell, then rain, and the rain reveals the hardpacked base underneath which is actually just one big glare iced surface underneath it all. Then late in the afternoon, the winds come up, the temp dips severely while a cold front dominates and by 6pm, there is 3" of fresh powder on top of your skating rink for a road. We're talking so slippery you have to walk up the edges of the snowbank in order to walk up.
Whenever someone scoffs at the suggestion that NO ONE actually needs AWD or 4WD drive, I think of the many times those exact conditions I mentioned above, and would love to invite them over with their 2WD or FWD and have them eat their words..

So..with all that said...I have never not been able to get up my hill with every AWD or 4x4 system I or friends/family have had. This includes the so-called inferior system on my CRV, or your newer Rav4 example. The Subaru sponsored You Tube that floats around the net showing CRV's and Rav4's and Ford Edge's etc etc all being stuck on roller bearing ramps, while the infamous Subaru's navigate the ramp every time, I think are fixed somehow. And even if they are legit, their test is basically a non-issue in the real world conditions of why people buy/want/need AWD. Perhaps if your driveway was in fact made of rollers, maybe the Sube is superior...who knows..but since it is not made of rollers and even the most perceived inferior systems still manage the worst possible real world slippery conditions just fine, then I think there is a level of hoopla about some systems being so superior to others on hill climbs.

Lastly, the one area that I do believe some AWD systems can be superior, are if you are trying to win a Rally race in the slop. I have even had Subaru's also and even those easily oversteer (no worse nor better) in a slippery snowy corner if you are pushing it a bit, and requires backing off the throttle to get the front end to regain grip. In the real world, this type of behaviour (behavior) should be considered acceptable, because if it is that slippery out, then people shouldn't be pushing the envelope anyway...they still can't brake any better..
And in this type of world, even the most..so-called inferior AWD system, still gets you:
- up the hill
- even towing a trailer with skinny little 8" tires digging in fighting you all the way
- with a 900 lb load on it
- and gets you through that dense snowbank the plow left you with (assuming you don't highside it..no system can work if your tires are off the ground)

And the inferior CRV system can still do all of the above.
Was the 88 Camry I had with viscous coupling and locking diff option, better? Ya, just a little. Was my 89 Subaru XT6 better than the CRV? Nope, not one perceptible bit. In fact, my 03 Matrix AWD actually managed my hill and those extra challenging conditions a little better than the Sube did. Both had All Seasons...maybe the difference was in the rubber. I forget what the Sube had, but the Matrix had Good Year GA's I think.
Matrix used a simple viscous coupler system too..simple, cheap, effective. I actually wish the Honda did too. Save me from having to replace the "dual pump fluid" in the rear end every 15000 or 20000 miles. I suspect the viscous coupler systems use less fuel too.

gagrice

Even less so is the need for AWD. (for my .02cents of course) Many see either and or both as wanted and needed options.

In my experience 4WD more than paid for itself when I sold the vehicle. In GM PU Trucks 4X4 was usually about $1500 more. When you go to sell it all comes back and then some.

gagrice

I fully agree with Edmunds. Why has it taken so LOOOOOONG?

While none of the engines are a bad choice, make ours an Ecodiesel. And then point us to the nearest patch of slickrock. This is the way to go in a 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee.

gagrice

Whenever someone scoffs at the suggestion that NO ONE actually needs AWD or 4WD drive

Those are the same folks that come to have you pull them out of the ditch when their FWD did not get them up the hill.

ruking1

That actually has been my experience and for multiple times and units. But on the other hand, I really had nothing to compare it with for those units have come STANDARD with 4WD.

crkyolfrt

So true..and it's happened a few times..

I guess at the end of my book, I should have mentioned that for the easily vast majority of people, even who drive winter regularly, 2WD and a good set of 4 snows gets the job done for them, and is a $ saver all the way around..to buy, to maintain, to fuel..

In fact, I appreciate that many don't buy AWD, cuz we'd just have that many more incompetents that would have all this great 'go' traction, but be ramming/slamming into us from not being able to stop or corner any better..

There's a joke around these parts, and probably many other cities that have winter..on the first wintery day of the season the very first vehicle up against the guardrails or down in the median strip is always a Ford Explorer, with a driver sitting in it with a "duh...wuh happened" look..

stever

Chrysler - Ecodiesel
GM - Ecotec
Ford - EcoBoost

Reminds me a bit of all the other marketing catch phrases:

"Clean Coal"
"Clean, safe, affordable" (nukes)
"Clean-burning alternative fuel" (natural gas)
"Clean-tech" (wind/solar/biofuels)
"BlueTEC clean diesel" (or Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel, if you prefer)
"ULEV, SULEV, PZEV, ZEV"

In other words, be green, buy a new car and drive more. Give it about 5 more years before the greenwashing backlash hits the automakers.

ateixeira

The A3 "Green Police" ad was great, they should have run it longer.

plekto

Another condition example...after a fairly average winter swing conditions of snow, traffic packed, more snow, traffic, then a mild spell, then rain, and the rain reveals the hardpacked base underneath which is actually just one big glare iced surface underneath it all. Then late in the afternoon, the winds come up, the temp dips severely while a cold front dominates and by 6pm, there is 3" of fresh powder on top of your skating rink for a road. We're talking so slippery you have to walk up the edges of the snowbank in order to walk up.

The thing is, that AWD on most vehicles simply is only good fro crawling up a driveway or hill. It's useless when you're going at speed and won't help you in rain, snow, ice, or other road conditions as they simply transfer power and react too slowly.

4WD is always engaged so it's fantastic if you are running down a country road in winter. So is Audi and Subaru's system. Everything else might as well be FWD the second you go around a corner or hit a patch of ice. Maybe the stability control will save you. I'd rather not need for it to kick in in the first place.

gagrice

Did Edmund's substitute a picture from 2013???? This is supposedly the look of the New JGC. And I am not thrilled. The JGC Edmund's shows does not look like this.

gagrice

I'm not even a little bit impressed. Looks like a POC Japanese design.

scwmcan

Not the JGC but the jeep liberty replacement, just the Cheroke, the JGC has smaller headlights than it did before but doesn't look like this. Still looks basically the same as it did since the last redesign. If they are saying this is the grand Cherokee they are incorrect. You are still safe I think to consider the GC diesel when it gets here.

gagrice

I just found that out. I forgot about the Cherokee moniker. And did not pay close attention. That is good news because I really like the looks of the JGC. The Liberty (Cherokee) is just too small for my taste. And without offering diesel it would not be on my list anyway.

stever

There's a lot of Jeep photos floating around; next time I'll add a photo to my link so you won't be bummed. :shades:

stever

The 2014 Cherokee has quite a bit of resemblance at first glance though:

gagrice

Kind of looks like BMW X model envy in a way. I was wanting some decent JGC pics for my desktop and when this popped up I was confused, as it did not look anything like the other pics I was seeing of the GC. Looks like competition for the Lexus RX crowd that cannot afford full on luxury. Though the lines between Luxury cars and mainstream are getting blurred. My top of the line Sequoia Limited is nicer than the Lexus GX we test drove. And roomier. Both had the same running gear. I am wondering if the GC with the same platform as the MB ML will be one up with that new German 8 speed transmission. That was my one complaint about the MB diesel I drove. The auto transmission would downshift when you let off the throttle. The sales person was clueless. It may be an option that can be disabled. Would be nice down long steep hills. On the free way it was not to my liking.

ruking1

I actually also saw "a BMW schema" when I first looked at the Jeep "front end" pic Steve posted. To me it was a 3.5 x (7 grills elements) dup and copy of the BMW kidney grill (2 grill elements). I think it 50/50 it might grow on me. :confuse: I might hasten to add that is PURELY a preference thing. WAY after the fact I am really liking the VW Touareg's front. Separately I also like the 6 o'clock treatments.

If one can separate that out, it very definitely has "the CUV look" all the way around.

gagrice

I also like the Touareg look. The problem is they are in great demand and I only see 2 within a hundred miles of me. I have gone in a couple times for a test drive and none were available. Same for the ML350 Bluetech.

ruking1

Well I hope my posts did NOT play a part in your current dilemma !? :surprise: Seeming there are a few (6) that have special financing 3.59% for 60 mo !! But yes, @ this time in the 2013 MY there are only 621 VW-T TDI's in the US inventory.

ateixeira

What's funny is that if you flip the grille and lights 180 degrees, it actually looks better.

xwesx

I haven't bothered with AWD for my daily driver because, honestly, it is unnecessary. If it were our only vehicle, it would be AWD. With a Subaru in the driveway already for those conditions that are simply not worth the effort in the Fiesta (and for my wife to use during her outings).

The only downside I can figure thus far is that the drivers of 4WD pickups sure don't appreciate me "out-driving" them in my little car. :P

ateixeira

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/24/volkswagen-planning-up-hybrid-model-using-xl1- - -powertrain/

XL1 powertrain in an Up!.

2 cylinder diesel electric plug-in hybrid. That's a mouth ful.

gagrice

If I stretch out to 500 miles from home there are quite a few. Most seem to be in Central to Northern CA. Closest one to me is 88 miles North of here. Our local VW dealer has Zero. Another reason to consider the Jeep GC would be access to a big dealer.

iwant12

I don't think you'd be sorry with the GC. I bought an '11 Larado 4x4 V6 and have been very happy with it. Got 23 K on the clock and not one single problem. Not sure if I like the new headlamps on the '14s, but I do like the fact they've upped the tranny to 8 gears. And the diesel will be out soon, too!