I don't think it's the same, those added structural pieces are always there, while VW's programming disables the emissions reductions in normal driving.
Granted, it is not the same, but I remember when this came to light, it was because one test involved backing into a steel post and hitting it exactly in the center of the rear bumper to see how much damage it would do. It was determined that this exact spot had extra reinforcement and padding, not the entire bumper. One foot to either side would have done about 3 times the damage. Pretty sketchy.
Please pardon me for saying this, but I think you're missing the essential point. National rules don't segregate the much dirtier shipping, air traffic and send it to the rest of the nation to breathe. Personally, if we could do that, I 'd send it all to DC.
I'm not talking about moving smog to different parts of the country. I'm suggesting a unified framework of regulations from one central agency that all states must comply with instead of created what we have today, where individual and groups of states create their own regulation and bureaucracy and individual requirements that make it difficult for business and industry to comply. I'd also propose something similar for one set of safety standards for Europe, North American and all markets for the same reason. It would ensure that there's one standard to follow and keep costs in check instead of pushing it on to consumers when an automaker has to build, certify and test different models to different markets.
I'm all for individual states trying to ensure they maintain good air quality for their population, but I'd much rather see a mechanism in place to fairly elevate the requests to the federal level at the EPA and if approved, be applied equally across the board.
Well folks I have read every article posted on this. And they all seem to be using the same authors. The only testing the EPA/CARB has used is this company from the EU, running road tests with a device stuck up the tailpipe, built by some people in WV that are alternative energy wonks. Doesn't that raise a red flag for anyone else? If CARB and EPA have NO legitimate testing equipment for diesel exhaust, I think this is premature. If they have ripped me off on my smog check by hooking up to the Touareg's computer and believing what they read, I want my $58 back.
This ain't rocket science, folks.
I like diesels, I think we would be better off with more diesels.
But the two diesel apologists on this forum are losing all credibility. All.
It is not the credibility of the diesel fans in question. It is the EPA and CARB that have totally dropped the ball on diesel testing. According to the Tester that just did my Touareg TDI the CARB test on diesels is a big joke and they know it. It took an Eco Nut from the EU and some kids from a podunk college in WV to show the testing on half a million vehicles was flawed. If in fact their test from here to Seattle is really accurate. And only one car was tested.
CARB has tried to block diesel cars from the roads in CA for decades. VW finally comes up with diesels that make CARB happy. Then we find out they were never really tested out on the highway for emissions. EPA and CARB waste billions and are NOT going after the real polluters. There is a reason you still cannot breathe in San Bernardino. It is the pollution from the Los Angeles Harbor that blows up against the mountains.
EPA has lost ALL credibility since they polluted half the rivers in Colorado. Just looking for someone to get the press off their back.
Diesels should be restricted in the cities. In the wide expanses of Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, Montana , Kansas , Nebraska., the No2 emissions hardly matters. Smog is a urban specific phenomenon and TDIs can still be used in the wide open rural states and maybe banned in the major cities. Do not throw the baby out with the bath water.
"Clean Diesels" that pass the requirements were and are apparently made by BMW. At least the BMW X5 diesel that was tested passed without a problem....
Diesels should be restricted in the cities. In the wide expanses of Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, Montana , Kansas , Nebraska., the No2 emissions hardly matters. Smog is a urban specific phenomenon and TDIs can still be used in the wide open rural states and maybe banned in the major cities. Do not throw the baby out with the bath water.
May I suggest that you Google the (SC) AQMD.gov. Diesel CARS do not even rate a mention on the N0x issue. Indeed gasser traffic creates the majority. Diesel trucks over 14,000 pounds are the other culprits.
There is a N0x expert from the AQMD named Henry Hogo. If you can get past the industry's gobbledygook, he lays out in at least two videos, both the N0x goals and some of the culprits getting in the way. Like I said, he specifically states they will do NADA about the MAJOR issues: shipping, port operation, aircraft, airport operations, standing generators, construction, farming, natural occurring generators or decreasing the LA LA land populations. The site itself has N0x generators which there are about 11. http://www.aqmd.gov/docs/default-source/Agendas/aqmp/control-strategy-symposium/hdv-hogo.pdf?sfvrsn=2
Indeed way back when, when they were trying to get rid of manufactoring, decreasing pollution was part of the deal. How has that been working for us ?
"The Wrath of Volkswagen’s Drivers By JAD MOUAWAD and CHRISTOPHER JENSENSEPT. 21, 2015
....But whatever the technological solution, it will most likely mean reducing the performance, drivability or fuel economy of cars to meet emission goals.
In the meantime, car owners must reconcile what they thought they had bought with the revelation that their diesel cars emit from 10 to 40 times more pollutants than advertised.
“I feel totally ripped off,” said John Decker, 55, a photographer from Sacramento, who owns a 2013 Jetta SportWagen with the diesel engine. “It just reeks of fraud and that they intentionally misled the buyers of their vehicles into thinking these were clean diesels, environmentally good cars, that were fun to drive....
Now, that fun-to-drive factor has lost its appeal, he said.
“If the reason they are fun to drive is that they are spewing up to 40 times the amount of pollutants they are supposed to be, I just find it outrageous, frankly,” he said.
Volkswagen will be required to fix the emissions system so it complies with federal regulations, though the exact remedy has not been announced.
But Mr. Decker says that he worries the engine may lose power or have drivability problems, and that he is sure the fuel economy will drop.
“I’d be surprised if they can get that emissions under control and still have the performance,” he said. “That’s probably why they did this in the first place.”
So, for now he no longer wants the diesel-powered car. He thinks Volkswagen should buy it back.
....automakers are given “a reasonable amount of time” to engineer a remedy, and “depending on the complexity of the repair and the lead time needed to obtain the necessary components, it could take up to one year to identify corrective actions, develop a recall plan and issue recall notices.”"
I don't think VW is going to give you a car, but what if they offered you full market value (from before the bad publicity) for your current VW, plus an incentive of c. $5k on a new one?
Volkswagen U.S. CEO: 'We Screwed Up' And 'Will Pay What We Have To Pay' 24,36111
Justin Westbrook Filed to: DIESELGATE9/21/15 8:33pm
Speaking just before the unveiling of the 2016 Volkswagen Passat at an event in New York, President and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America Michael Horn made a short statement on Volkswagen’s recent diesel cheating scandal: “Our company was dishonest; we screwed up.”
Horn said the ongoing Dieselgate scandal was “completely inconsistent with our core values,” and, “We need to make it right with all of you.”
Horn finished his statement with “We will correct this TDI issue. We will straighten this out. We will pay what we have to pay.”
"U.S. taxpayers duped into shelling out $51 million in green subsidies for 'clean' VW vehicles
By JERRY HIRSCH
The federal government paid out as much as $51 million in green car subsidies for Volkswagen diesel vehicles based on falsified pollution test results, according to a Times analysis of the federal incentives....
"It is really unfortunate," said Luke Tonachel, director of clean vehicles and fuels project at the Natural Resources Defense Council. "The government has been effective to help advance clean technologies, but it is a waste of taxpayer dollars when they aren't actually helping to clean the environment."
He said regulators should factor in the $51 million in subsidies when determining penalties for Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations...."
That may be a real stretch on the tax credits. I would bet a Tesla with a $7500 tax credit will be responsible for more pollution if it is charged up using coal powered generators.
People who own all-electric cars may think they are helping the environment. But a new study finds that if their electrical power comes from coal, their vehicles actually make the air dirtier, worsening global warming. The key is where the source of the electricity all-electric cars. If it comes from coal, the electric cars produce 3.6 times more soot and smog deaths than those powered by gas.
First time I've ever seen that. You can thank the EPA, CAFE, etc., for politicizing what should remain NON political and current BHO administration for economic weaponization of previously non political gov agencies.
That may be a real stretch on the tax credits. I would bet a Tesla with a $7500 tax credit will be responsible for more pollution if it is charged up using coal powered generators.
People who own all-electric cars may think they are helping the environment. But a new study finds that if their electrical power comes from coal, their vehicles actually make the air dirtier, worsening global warming. The key is where the source of the electricity all-electric cars. If it comes from coal, the electric cars produce 3.6 times more soot and smog deaths than those powered by gas.
Clean coal & nuclear are the majority providers of electrical energy@ 59%. So a pocket book vote for EV is defacto a vote for clean coal and clean nuclear!
It is both funny and interesting that California does not require or give incentive to a building being built, to be solar or energy self-sufficient. So, for example, not too far from the former Solyndra plant, I am enjoined by the municipality, from putting up the $ 35,000 solar array, even if it is not also economically viable . The same municipality, out of the the mouth says that they encourage solar panel installation. . In fact, not too long ago, that same municipality charged approximately $20,000 in permits, just to give just to allow someone to proceed. They chose to dial that back a little bit, when it was reported on the evening news how much it cost.
Just in observation. After all the hoopla about what's been written about the latest diesel fiasco? Nobody has done a competitive emissions measurement and comparison between say VW Passat, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, etc.
Honda was sued in small claims court about Honda's misrepresentation if it's mpg. The plaintive won. Previously they tried to keep this at the Federal Corp level. For some reason it was allowed in small claims court. Honda was successful in kicking it back upstairs. So it was a blow to every man.
....That's my biggest issue with CARB. I'm sure there are some EPA regulation that are stifling to business as well, but I'd much rather have one government entity ensuring manufacturers and industry aren't polluting than trying to have many different states trying to dictate policy for the rest of the country.
Smog research started in California back in the 1940s with the pioneering work of Prof. Arie Haagen-Smit of Caltech. In 1947, Republican Gov. Earl Warren signed into law the Air Pollution Control Act, in response to years of deadly pollution in California. California was the first to begin to control tailpipe emissions back in the early 1960s. Gov. Ronald Reagan appointed Haagen-Smit to be the first director of the CARB in 1968. The EPA wasn't even established by Nixon until 1970, at which point California had a 20 year head start in scientific research and practical smog controls. Since 1970, and subsequently, EPA has often relied on the more advanced work of CARB in doing their work. CARB's rules are usually stricter than the EPA's because of California's huge smog problems. But arguably the EPA has only done what they have at the national level because of the science-based work that CARB has done earlier. At times, some have tried to weaken or kill CARB, including those in the auto industry, because they don't like to costs of strict emissions controls. But because many states trust CARB more than the EPA, and also have serious smog problems, these states have adopted CARB's stricter rules rather than the EPA's.
And so you're right, sometimes it's a lot of work and costs a lot, but compared to the "drop dead" smog of the 1940s-1970s, dramatic progress has been made because of CARB. If we'd relied just on the EPA, the progress would have been less. There is still smog, but given that California's population has grown from 10 million in 1950 to almost 40 million today, and yet the air in LA is much cleaner now than it was then, the progress has been impressive.
Ultimately, strict clean air rules encourage economic growth by reducing the sick days of employees, and making California a nicer place to do business. Without clean air rules, individual Californians, as well as economic growth, would have literally choked to death.
Just in observation. After all the hoopla about what's been written about the latest diesel fiasco? Nobody has done a competitive emissions measurement and comparison between say VW Passat, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, etc.
Honda was sued in small claims court about Honda's misrepresentation if it's mpg. The plaintive won. Previously they tried to keep this at the Federal Corp level. For some reason it was allowed in small claims court. Honda was successful in kicking it back upstairs. So it was a blow to every man.
Almost every car company, including Honda (which has also had the Takata airbag scandal), has had its share of problems and mistakes. But this intentional deception and false advertising by VW is certainly one to add to the list. In some ways, VW's "defect" is less serious. But in terms of the intentional deception and law-breaking, it does raise some eyebrows.
But I agree: they should test gas models too, and compare them with diesels.
Just in terms of mpg, however, there are a few gas cars that are getting closer to diesels. For instance, the 2015 Mazda3 5-door hatchback is rated 33 overall for mpg, compared to a Golf 5-door diesel, which is rated 36.
But in terms of the cost of fuel for year for 15,000 miles, the Golf diesel will cost only $50 less a year. Given that the Golf diesel costs about $2000 more than a comparable Mazda3, there is no way in the lifetimes of the cars to make up this difference.
Yes, the Golf might have more torque, but these are both "fun to drive" compact cars. And by the time the Golf diesel is brought into compliance with the rules, it might not even have much of a power or mpg edge over the Mazda.
Seems the VW cheating warrants a name that ends in "gate".
TDI owners must be very angry! Some redouble their allegations conspiracy-theories.
Did VW TDI resale value all get halved overnight, maybe?
Is VW going to repay all that depreciation and repay all the scammed rebates from US taxpayers?
There were naysayers expressing skepticism in car forums about the TDI diesel emissions results long before a year ago. also fwiw some customers who owned many pre-2009 VW TDI refused to buy the 2009s & later due to objections to the rube-goldberg emissions system.
Kudos to the engineers who discovered/proved the cheating.
It would be interesting to see the details of the similar cheats that construction-equipment-makers have already settled with the US govt.
I would like to see authors of the cheat software identified and the cheat software to be disassembled and released as part of whatever court cases.
Are criminal charges possible? is there a crime involved any worse than "civil speeding" like my 75 in a 65 speeding ticket in NY state on my return from NE Patriots victory, The NY trooper who detailed/cited me is surely a Buffalo Bills fan. (LET'S GO BILL............... BELICHEK!)
iirc, there were naysayers expressing skepticism about the TDI diesel emissions long before a year ago. also fwiw some customers (at least one) who owned many pre-2009 VW TDI refused to buy the 2009s & later due to objections to the rube-goldberg emissions system.
Even with the strict rules of the California Air Resource Board, California in some cities still has unhealthy air due to high population, intensity of industry, and a car-dependent transportation system. But the rules have brought a scientifically-proven reduction in cancer risk, by tackling many sources of pollution, from diesel cars, to diesel trucks, to regular cars, to even dry cleaners.
VW was cheating on rules that are there for a reason. As it says in this article, diesel particulate matter is the largest contributor to airborne cancer risk in California (and the rest of the nation too).
"How strict California rules on emissions led to lower cancer risk By TONY BARBOZA September 21, 2015
California has made tremendous progress cleaning its once-notorious air pollution over the last generation, with Los Angeles smog easing in response to the state's ever-stricter emissions standards.
On Monday, there was more good news. The Air Resources Board reported that Californians' cancer risk from toxic air pollution has declined 76% over more than two decades, a trend the agency attributes to the state's array of regulations targeting everything from diesel trucks to dry cleaners.
State scientists measured the drop from 1990 to 2012 by tracking airborne concentrations of the seven toxic air contaminants that are most responsible for increasing cancer risks. They include the particulate matter in diesel exhaust, benzene from gasoline, perchloroethylene emitted by dry cleaners and hexavalent chromium from chrome plating operations.
The authors of the study, published in the journal Environmental Science & Technology, said they were able to link declines in toxic compounds to specific policies, including rules targeting exhaust from diesel trucks, gasoline vapors and emissions from dry cleaners.
When California required reformulated gasoline in the mid-1990s, for instance, levels of benzene in the air dropped immediately, said Álvaro Alvarado, a toxicologist at the Air Resources Board and an author of the study.
Concentrations of diesel particulate matter — the largest contributor to airborne cancer risk in the state — declined more than 68% in California over the 23-year study period, the agency found, largely because of state requirements for cleaner fuels and strict emissions-control rules for diesel trucks adopted in 2008.
"This is real-world proof that the regulations are having the kind of impact that we had hoped for," Alvarado said..."
From a popular comment in a current article in the NY Times saying that 11 million VWs are now known to have software to defeat the emissions equipment:
"CrustyJusty Ann Arbor, MI 39 minutes ago I used to work on emissions control software for one of the Big Three.
The engine control and emissions diagnostics software is incredibly complex. We had hundreds of software developers, calibrators, validation experts, etc., working on these efforts. If you worked on oxygen sensors or catalytic converters, or vehicle speed or really anything, the software would interface with dozens of other functional areas.
There is absolutely no way that one or multiple emissions tests could be disabled without dozens of people knowing. Maybe hundreds. We would sometimes review single lines of code with dozens of engineers in the room, for fear that a specific emissions test wouldn't run appropriately in real-world conditions.
So, in my somewhat educated opinion, there is simply no way that this effort didn't involve a concerted effort by many individuals, and I would expect the evidence to prove that out."
"The scope of Volkswagen’s diesel scandal broadened on Tuesday, when the company said that 11 million of its diesel cars worldwide were equipped with the same software that was used to cheat on emissions tests in the United States.
Volkswagen has sold many cars containing the tampered engines, known as Type EA 189 engines.
Other diesel cars made by the company have the same engine-management software, but it has no effect, Volkswagen said."
"German auto supplier Bosch said on Tuesday it had delivered components, so-called common jail injection systems, to Volkswagen cars that are now at the centre of a U.S. probe into rigged emissions tests of diesel-powered vehicles."
"German auto supplier Bosch said on Tuesday it had delivered components, so-called common jail injection systems, to Volkswagen cars that are now at the centre of a U.S. probe into rigged emissions tests of diesel-powered vehicles."
Next up will be killing the semis, but that'll take ~20 years. Actually next up should be killing diesel school buses since they are putting the most at risk group at risk.
Your fuel bill should be going down even more - there's a bunch of new refineries in China that were purpose built to focus on diesel, and there was a glut before the VW deception. (hydrocarbonprocessing.com)
Meanwhile, "Diesel pumps could run dry" in Britian, thanks to permanent refinery shutdowns. (BBC)
Your fuel bill should be going down even more - there's a bunch of new refineries in China that were purpose built to focus on diesel, and there was a glut before the VW deception. (hydrocarbonprocessing.com)
Meanwhile, "Diesel pumps could run dry" in Britian, thanks to permanent refinery shutdowns. (BBC)
Again, I've been saying this all along! (gas/diesel ratio's, not China, just substitute countries for those slow on the uptake ).
....“China faces one of the worst situations in terms of demand mismatch in Asia,” researcher Energy Aspects said in report this month. “Its domestic gasoline demand is soaring, but its refineries cannot produce enough gasoline without spewing out large quantities of unwanted diesel.”
For those afraid to look at the reality, it gets down to this.
IF you want to get rid of diesel, you HAVE to rid of gas. !!!
Again, 98% plus of the vehicle fleet is GAS!
So I don't know how y'all do your math, but if you can't do the math, y'all need to get out your little magic wands.
So yes I'm looking forward to the ULSD prices going down! I bet it sees lower than 1.85 per gallon. Yippee!
Also, the Defense Dept just let $ B's of $$'s in contracts for replacement vehicles for the vehicle fleets we gave to Iraq's who then abandoned them to the Taliban & ISIS ! This is hardly the stinging rebuke to your call for " killing the DIESEL beast " . Aka, they could have done EV power trains (LOL)
Given your obvious bias against diesel, it's amazing how you even set foot on any plane powered by jet fuel, or any one else with the anti diesel bias.
What do you think would be the effect on world wide shipping, and world travel if we all went back to SAILING ships ?
Seems like real reality is way too much, for way too many people!
Here is an interesting Apple take on the EV line of business.
Just another observation, to add to the lack of published competitive gasser/ULSD emissions observation.
But don't you think a little strange, that they can't even show you a picture of the infamous "defeat device" ?
But then on the other hand, it seems like VW is doing the GM shuffle.
Looking ahead, there are a lot of similarities between GM & VW. First of all, GM has a lot of governmental and labor ownership, as does VW.
FF, so if they follow the same script, both will/should get off ! Winterkorn, VW CEO of course has a significant disadvantage. Unlike the GM CEO, he can not tell them he's a mom, with a straight face ! But then there is the TRANS gender angle.
Again, I know that, but it's called, in almost every article a device? So defacto, there is another HUGE inaccuracy. Hello! .?
Another huge inaccuracy is the inference that the so called defeat device works when an owner hits the CA SMOG ONLY Station. So for example CA state has certified my 2009 VW Jetta TDI on the schedules and protocols it demands
To answer another's ? about exemption, the 2003 TDI was emissions exempt. I was miffed when they took it off exemption.
Talking heads on CNBC are saying that not only does this VW fiasco have a deleterious effect on Germany, and the European stock market, it also has a huge effect on the European economy and national security.
Even with the strict rules of the California Air Resource Board, California in some cities still has unhealthy air due to high population, intensity of industry, and a car-dependent transportation system. But the rules have brought a scientifically-proven reduction in cancer risk, by tackling many sources of pollution, from diesel cars, to diesel trucks, to regular cars, to even dry cleaners.
VW was cheating on rules that are there for a reason. As it says in this article, diesel particulate matter is the largest contributor to airborne cancer risk in California (and the rest of the nation too).
I understand your point that like many things, California has led the nation in cleaning up the air but especially in recent years they have also stifled certain sectors of the economy while not holding other significant polluters accountable. With the automotive aftermarket and their Executive Order (EO) certification process there are requirements that appear to be profit-driven rather than really trying to test and validate unique parts for use in the state and ensure they help meet emission standards (e.g. CARB requires emission and other parts be certified by the manufacturer for every application/vehicle/model year with a hefty fee for each one, but CARB doesn't actually test all parts and only does a quick visual "review" board of manufacturer submitted testing).
CARB also has no accountability to the public and are free to impose regulations as they see fit. As an example, when our elected legislation dropped the proposal to cut gasoline use in the state by 50% as part of in AB 350 the Governor has stated he will use CARB to make an end-run around the failed legislation and use their regulatory power to impose the cuts.
Without getting too far off tangent into a political thread (even if it relates to vehicle emissions), I'm for clean air, regulation, and controls but back to the subject at hand, diesel automobiles, the automakers have proven that they can build a clean diesel (even VW with other TDI models) but there needs to be one standard for the United States and preferably global markets for emissions.
If California wants to be the driving force at the national level and provide input to the EPA I'd have no problems with that. But if California or any state is allowed regulate and created their own different requirements it drives up the cost and complexity instead of one national strict standard. If we had a single national standard administered by the EPA it would reduce costs and allow automakers to offer more affordable diesel solutions in all markets instead of having to engineer specific solutions for some markets while being lax and using less pollution control devices in other markets in an attempt to recover money. That would allow us to clean up the air across the entire nation and not just shift pollution from your backyard to someone else's.
Near the middle of last month , I almost bought a 2015 TDI Passat at about $3500 off the MSRP. Then I thought about the long term maintenance costs as I planned to keep it for 6 years. Then I thought about buying a hybrid but I felt uneasy about the Lithium batteries and their storage and charging characteristics and also fear of fire and explosion in my garage ( j/k) . Then my local Hyundai dealer was offering 2015 Sonatas for $5300 off the MSRP, which I thought was a great deal as there was no way an hybrid or a diesel was going to save me $5K over the years that I planned to keep the car. So I bought the Sonata. Reading the VW gate scandal, I feel I escaped with barely the skin of my teeth from buying a pork in a barrel Passat.
...But if California or any state is allowed regulate and created their own different requirements it drives up the cost and complexity instead of one national strict standard. ....
But, in a nutshell, the national standard would be less strict. That's why auto companies in the past have tried to have a national standard, and eliminate or limit CARB's role, which would mean weakening California's standards for its extra challenging air quality conditions.
We'll need to agree to disagree. We're not going to convince each other.
What are you talking about, I told you not to buy the TDI!
I remember also mentioning, more than once that my experience has been with gassers versus diesels and not hybrids, as opposed to stevedebi.
Cost of maintaining a TDI for 6 years? Geezzzzzzz. @ 15,000 miles per year, I would have only changed oil three times ( yes 30,000 miles OCI's ) if you had dealer included maintenance maybe a max of five oil changes. Tires,brake pads and rotors need to be checked, but that's hardly diesel specific .
@socal_eric, you're into state's rights, and it seems that whether you are for or against state's rights depends on what particular side of an issue you are on. People in LA wouldn't be too happy if those "strict" national standards were weaker than current regs and the mountain views started disappearing again.
California really is mired in over-regulation, high taxes, crazy gas prices, and an expensive cost of living. That's why all the businesses have shut down and everyone has left.
@socal_eric, you're into state's rights, and it seems that whether you are for or against state's rights depends on what particular side of an issue you are on. People in LA wouldn't be too happy if those "strict" national standards were weaker than current regs and the mountain views started disappearing again.
California really is mired in over-regulation, high taxes, crazy gas prices, and an expensive cost of living. That's why all the businesses have shut down and everyone has left.
AMEN ! to your second paragraph!
One would have to be an extreme masochist to try to put it in a manufacturing facility in LA LA Land. I am sure that a lot of manufacturing plants that are already there, wish they weren't.
Here is an easy one, ask Apple Computer, which is arguably one of the most cash rich companies in the world, let alone America , what it would take to manufacture I Phones in LA LA land somewhere. You would probably start with four times to 8 times the price that it is now. That would probably be the good news, the bad news ? The logistics costs are probably all downhill from there.
"Volkswagen's emissions deception brings more scrutiny to entire industry NHTSA Chief Wonders If Other Automakers Employ Same Tricks
Volkswagen's emissions deceptions have hurt the entire auto industry's credibility with federal regulators. Days after the world's largest automaker confessed to installing software that circumvents emissions standards on approximately a half-million diesel vehicles in the United States, a top federal safety official says the company's dishonesty will force government officials to view the entire auto industry with heightened skepticism.
"Your first question has to be, 'How extensive is it through the whole industry?' You don't know if it's a unique case or if other people are doing it," said Mark Rosekind, administrator of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. "The unfortunate part is you're not going to worry about one person. It's extended to the entire industry. If they did it, someone else could do it."
Rosekind's agency doesn't bear responsibility in investigating the emissions cheating. That falls to the Environmental Protection Agency, which served Volkswagen with a Notice of Violation on Friday that alleged the company's diesel vehicle equipped with 2.0-liter engines contained a defeat device that allowed the cars to detect when emissions testing was taking place. In normal driving situations, the cars spewed pollution at as much as 40 times allowable thresholds.
But because of the emissions cheating, NHTSA wonders if the German automaker has been cutting corners on safety standards or disingenuous on safety-related discussions. Speaking at an auto-industry event in Novi, MI, on Tuesday, Rosekind indicated no information can now be taken at face value. He used the phrase "Question assumptions" several times in discussing the case..."
Volkswagen's emissions deceptions have hurt the entire auto industry's credibility with federal regulators. Days after the world's largest automaker confessed to installing software that circumvents emissions standards on approximately a half-million diesel vehicles in the United States, a top federal safety official says the company's dishonesty will force government officials to view the entire auto industry with heightened skepticism.
You can bet your last dollar that if VW has done it, others have done it too with diesel as well as Gas. One who gets caught is the thief
Yep, that's why California is just the eighth largest economy in the world with the most people living there of any US state. It's just awful, LOL.
No, but manufacturing is more than decimated! This was the issue raised?
It also raises the question what's wrong with wanting to be greater than eighth rated economy? Disruptors can come along in/ @ anytime and drop that fast into also ran. What do you think the big German auto OEM's are feeling right now. If you W porch doesn't watch it, they may be the target of a hostile take over ambush!
So didn't I say some posts back: Mark my words: this is just the small tip of a huge iceberg. Carb, EPA, et al caught with the proverbial pants down & ...! ? Etc.
Volkswagen's emissions deceptions have hurt the entire auto industry's credibility with federal regulators. Days after the world's largest automaker confessed to installing software that circumvents emissions standards on approximately a half-million diesel vehicles in the United States, a top federal safety official says the company's dishonesty will force government officials to view the entire auto industry with heightened skepticism.
You can bet your last dollar that if VW has done it, others have done it too with diesel as well as Gas. One who gets caught is the thief
You can bet your last dollar on it if you wish, but I think I'll pass on that wager. You might be right, I really don't know. But I choose to think at this time that this is an outlier. Time will tell, but I'm going to be an optimist for now.
Comments
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I'm all for individual states trying to ensure they maintain good air quality for their population, but I'd much rather see a mechanism in place to fairly elevate the requests to the federal level at the EPA and if approved, be applied equally across the board.
It is not the credibility of the diesel fans in question. It is the EPA and CARB that have totally dropped the ball on diesel testing. According to the Tester that just did my Touareg TDI the CARB test on diesels is a big joke and they know it. It took an Eco Nut from the EU and some kids from a podunk college in WV to show the testing on half a million vehicles was flawed. If in fact their test from here to Seattle is really accurate. And only one car was tested.
CARB has tried to block diesel cars from the roads in CA for decades. VW finally comes up with diesels that make CARB happy. Then we find out they were never really tested out on the highway for emissions. EPA and CARB waste billions and are NOT going after the real polluters. There is a reason you still cannot breathe in San Bernardino. It is the pollution from the Los Angeles Harbor that blows up against the mountains.
EPA has lost ALL credibility since they polluted half the rivers in Colorado. Just looking for someone to get the press off their back.
Do not throw the baby out with the bath water.
There is a N0x expert from the AQMD named Henry Hogo. If you can get past the industry's gobbledygook, he lays out in at least two videos, both the N0x goals and some of the culprits getting in the way. Like I said, he specifically states they will do NADA about the MAJOR issues: shipping, port operation, aircraft, airport operations, standing generators, construction, farming, natural occurring generators or decreasing the LA LA land populations. The site itself has N0x generators which there are about 11. http://www.aqmd.gov/docs/default-source/Agendas/aqmp/control-strategy-symposium/hdv-hogo.pdf?sfvrsn=2
Indeed way back when, when they were trying to get rid of manufactoring, decreasing pollution was part of the deal. How has that been working for us ?
"The Wrath of Volkswagen’s Drivers
By JAD MOUAWAD and CHRISTOPHER JENSENSEPT. 21, 2015
....But whatever the technological solution, it will most likely mean reducing the performance, drivability or fuel economy of cars to meet emission goals.
In the meantime, car owners must reconcile what they thought they had bought with the revelation that their diesel cars emit from 10 to 40 times more pollutants than advertised.
“I feel totally ripped off,” said John Decker, 55, a photographer from Sacramento, who owns a 2013 Jetta SportWagen with the diesel engine. “It just reeks of fraud and that they intentionally misled the buyers of their vehicles into thinking these were clean diesels, environmentally good cars, that were fun to drive....
Now, that fun-to-drive factor has lost its appeal, he said.
“If the reason they are fun to drive is that they are spewing up to 40 times the amount of pollutants they are supposed to be, I just find it outrageous, frankly,” he said.
Volkswagen will be required to fix the emissions system so it complies with federal regulations, though the exact remedy has not been announced.
But Mr. Decker says that he worries the engine may lose power or have drivability problems, and that he is sure the fuel economy will drop.
“I’d be surprised if they can get that emissions under control and still have the performance,” he said. “That’s probably why they did this in the first place.”
So, for now he no longer wants the diesel-powered car. He thinks Volkswagen should buy it back.
....automakers are given “a reasonable amount of time” to engineer a remedy, and “depending on the complexity of the repair and the lead time needed to obtain the necessary components, it could take up to one year to identify corrective actions, develop a recall plan and issue recall notices.”"
I don't think VW is going to give you a car, but what if they offered you full market value (from before the bad publicity) for your current VW, plus an incentive of c. $5k on a new one?
24,36111
Justin Westbrook
Filed to: DIESELGATE9/21/15 8:33pm
Speaking just before the unveiling of the 2016 Volkswagen Passat at an event in New York, President and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America Michael Horn made a short statement on Volkswagen’s recent diesel cheating scandal: “Our company was dishonest; we screwed up.”
Horn said the ongoing Dieselgate scandal was “completely inconsistent with our core values,” and, “We need to make it right with all of you.”
Horn finished his statement with “We will correct this TDI issue. We will straighten this out. We will pay what we have to pay.”
http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-u-s-ceo-we-screwed-up-and-will-pay-what-we-1732165830
By JERRY HIRSCH
The federal government paid out as much as $51 million in green car subsidies for Volkswagen diesel vehicles based on falsified pollution test results, according to a Times analysis of the federal incentives....
"It is really unfortunate," said Luke Tonachel, director of clean vehicles and fuels project at the Natural Resources Defense Council. "The government has been effective to help advance clean technologies, but it is a waste of taxpayer dollars when they aren't actually helping to clean the environment."
He said regulators should factor in the $51 million in subsidies when determining penalties for Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations...."
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-vw-subsidies-20150922-story.html
Will it survive?
http://www.clearlybetterdiesel.org
People who own all-electric cars may think they are helping the environment. But a new study finds that if their electrical power comes from coal, their vehicles actually make the air dirtier, worsening global warming.
The key is where the source of the electricity all-electric cars. If it comes from coal, the electric cars produce 3.6 times more soot and smog deaths than those powered by gas.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/think-electric-cars-are-truly-green-not-if-their-power-comes-from-coal/
It is both funny and interesting that California does not require or give incentive to a building being built, to be solar or energy self-sufficient. So, for example, not too far from the former Solyndra plant, I am enjoined by the municipality, from putting up the $ 35,000 solar array, even if it is not also economically viable . The same municipality, out of the the mouth says that they encourage solar panel installation. . In fact, not too long ago, that same municipality charged approximately $20,000 in permits, just to give just to allow someone to proceed. They chose to dial that back a little bit, when it was reported on the evening news how much it cost.
Honda was sued in small claims court about Honda's misrepresentation if it's mpg. The plaintive won. Previously they tried to keep this at the Federal Corp level. For some reason it was allowed in small claims court. Honda was successful in kicking it back upstairs. So it was a blow to every man.
And so you're right, sometimes it's a lot of work and costs a lot, but compared to the "drop dead" smog of the 1940s-1970s, dramatic progress has been made because of CARB. If we'd relied just on the EPA, the progress would have been less. There is still smog, but given that California's population has grown from 10 million in 1950 to almost 40 million today, and yet the air in LA is much cleaner now than it was then, the progress has been impressive.
Ultimately, strict clean air rules encourage economic growth by reducing the sick days of employees, and making California a nicer place to do business. Without clean air rules, individual Californians, as well as economic growth, would have literally choked to death.
But I agree: they should test gas models too, and compare them with diesels.
Just in terms of mpg, however, there are a few gas cars that are getting closer to diesels. For instance, the 2015 Mazda3 5-door hatchback is rated 33 overall for mpg, compared to a Golf 5-door diesel, which is rated 36.
But in terms of the cost of fuel for year for 15,000 miles, the Golf diesel will cost only $50 less a year. Given that the Golf diesel costs about $2000 more than a comparable Mazda3, there is no way in the lifetimes of the cars to make up this difference.
Yes, the Golf might have more torque, but these are both "fun to drive" compact cars. And by the time the Golf diesel is brought into compliance with the rules, it might not even have much of a power or mpg edge over the Mazda.
TDI owners must be very angry! Some redouble their allegations conspiracy-theories.
Did VW TDI resale value all get halved overnight, maybe?
Is VW going to repay all that depreciation and repay all the scammed rebates from US taxpayers?
There were naysayers expressing skepticism in car forums about the TDI diesel emissions results long before a year ago. also fwiw some customers who owned many pre-2009 VW TDI refused to buy the 2009s & later due to objections to the rube-goldberg emissions system.
Kudos to the engineers who discovered/proved the cheating.
It would be interesting to see the details of the similar cheats that construction-equipment-makers have already settled with the US govt.
I would like to see authors of the cheat software identified and the cheat software to be disassembled and released as part of whatever court cases.
Are criminal charges possible? is there a crime involved any worse than "civil speeding" like my 75 in a 65 speeding ticket in NY state on my return from NE Patriots victory, The NY trooper who detailed/cited me is surely a Buffalo Bills fan.
(LET'S GO BILL............... BELICHEK!)
VW was cheating on rules that are there for a reason. As it says in this article, diesel particulate matter is the largest contributor to airborne cancer risk in California (and the rest of the nation too).
From the LA Times.
http://www.latimes.com/science/la-me-0922-pollution-risk-20150922-story.html
"How strict California rules on emissions led to lower cancer risk
By TONY BARBOZA
September 21, 2015
California has made tremendous progress cleaning its once-notorious air pollution over the last generation, with Los Angeles smog easing in response to the state's ever-stricter emissions standards.
On Monday, there was more good news. The Air Resources Board reported that Californians' cancer risk from toxic air pollution has declined 76% over more than two decades, a trend the agency attributes to the state's array of regulations targeting everything from diesel trucks to dry cleaners.
State scientists measured the drop from 1990 to 2012 by tracking airborne concentrations of the seven toxic air contaminants that are most responsible for increasing cancer risks. They include the particulate matter in diesel exhaust, benzene from gasoline, perchloroethylene emitted by dry cleaners and hexavalent chromium from chrome plating operations.
The authors of the study, published in the journal Environmental Science & Technology, said they were able to link declines in toxic compounds to specific policies, including rules targeting exhaust from diesel trucks, gasoline vapors and emissions from dry cleaners.
When California required reformulated gasoline in the mid-1990s, for instance, levels of benzene in the air dropped immediately, said Álvaro Alvarado, a toxicologist at the Air Resources Board and an author of the study.
Concentrations of diesel particulate matter — the largest contributor to airborne cancer risk in the state — declined more than 68% in California over the 23-year study period, the agency found, largely because of state requirements for cleaner fuels and strict emissions-control rules for diesel trucks adopted in 2008.
"This is real-world proof that the regulations are having the kind of impact that we had hoped for," Alvarado said..."
"CrustyJusty Ann Arbor, MI 39 minutes ago
I used to work on emissions control software for one of the Big Three.
The engine control and emissions diagnostics software is incredibly complex. We had hundreds of software developers, calibrators, validation experts, etc., working on these efforts. If you worked on oxygen sensors or catalytic converters, or vehicle speed or really anything, the software would interface with dozens of other functional areas.
There is absolutely no way that one or multiple emissions tests could be disabled without dozens of people knowing. Maybe hundreds. We would sometimes review single lines of code with dozens of engineers in the room, for fear that a specific emissions test wouldn't run appropriately in real-world conditions.
So, in my somewhat educated opinion, there is simply no way that this effort didn't involve a concerted effort by many individuals, and I would expect the evidence to prove that out."
Volkswagen has sold many cars containing the tampered engines, known as Type EA 189 engines.
Other diesel cars made by the company have the same engine-management software, but it has no effect, Volkswagen said."
Volkswagen Says 11 Million Cars Are Affected in Diesel Deception; Sets Aside $7.3 Billion (NY Times)
"You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before."
Rahm Emanuel
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/r/rahmemanue409199.html#Y5b0pu25TOApfzxu.99
Slow news diesel day. Only scored the equivalent of a new VW Tourareg TDI.
it will be interesting to see if this scandal will include the 3.0 L TDI?
"German auto supplier Bosch said on Tuesday it had delivered components, so-called common jail injection systems, to Volkswagen cars that are now at the centre of a U.S. probe into rigged emissions tests of diesel-powered vehicles."
Emphasis mine. (Reuters)
Diesel is toast.
But certainly it's TBD ! Or it ain't over, till it's over. Or was that a Mark Twain ism ? The reports of my death are premature .
Next up will be killing the semis, but that'll take ~20 years. Actually next up should be killing diesel school buses since they are putting the most at risk group at risk.
Truly, I have no plans for anything less than 20 years on any of my TDI's. The mileage goal for the 2003 Jetta TDI is 360,000 miles.
If the gov's that be won't buy my 12 year old TDI out, what makes you believe they'll buy a big rig out ?
Your fuel bill should be going down even more - there's a bunch of new refineries in China that were purpose built to focus on diesel, and there was a glut before the VW deception. (hydrocarbonprocessing.com)
Meanwhile, "Diesel pumps could run dry" in Britian, thanks to permanent refinery shutdowns. (BBC)
....“China faces one of the worst situations in terms of demand mismatch in Asia,” researcher Energy Aspects said in report this month. “Its domestic gasoline demand is soaring, but its refineries cannot produce enough gasoline without spewing out large quantities of unwanted diesel.”
For those afraid to look at the reality, it gets down to this.
IF you want to get rid of diesel, you HAVE to rid of gas. !!!
Again, 98% plus of the vehicle fleet is GAS!
So I don't know how y'all do your math, but if you can't do the math, y'all need to get out your little magic wands.
So yes I'm looking forward to the ULSD prices going down! I bet it sees lower than 1.85 per gallon. Yippee!
Also, the Defense Dept just let $ B's of $$'s in contracts for replacement vehicles for the vehicle fleets we gave to Iraq's who then abandoned them to the Taliban & ISIS ! This is hardly the stinging rebuke to your call for " killing the DIESEL beast " . Aka, they could have done EV power trains (LOL)
Given your obvious bias against diesel, it's amazing how you even set foot on any plane powered by jet fuel, or any one else with the anti diesel bias.
What do you think would be the effect on world wide shipping, and world travel if we all went back to SAILING ships ?
Seems like real reality is way too much, for way too many people!
Here is an interesting Apple take on the EV line of business.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/former-gm-bmw-executive-warns-apple-car-gigantic-122010587.html
But don't you think a little strange, that they can't even show you a picture of the infamous "defeat device" ?
But then on the other hand, it seems like VW is doing the GM shuffle.
Looking ahead, there are a lot of similarities between GM & VW. First of all, GM has a lot of governmental and labor ownership, as does VW.
FF, so if they follow the same script, both will/should get off ! Winterkorn, VW CEO of course has a significant disadvantage. Unlike the GM CEO, he can not tell them he's a mom, with a straight face ! But then there is the TRANS gender angle.
Another huge inaccuracy is the inference that the so called defeat device works when an owner hits the CA SMOG ONLY Station. So for example CA state has certified my 2009 VW Jetta TDI on the schedules and protocols it demands
To answer another's ? about exemption, the 2003 TDI was emissions exempt. I was miffed when they took it off exemption.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/tran-222324-board-carb.html
I understand your point that like many things, California has led the nation in cleaning up the air but especially in recent years they have also stifled certain sectors of the economy while not holding other significant polluters accountable. With the automotive aftermarket and their Executive Order (EO) certification process there are requirements that appear to be profit-driven rather than really trying to test and validate unique parts for use in the state and ensure they help meet emission standards (e.g. CARB requires emission and other parts be certified by the manufacturer for every application/vehicle/model year with a hefty fee for each one, but CARB doesn't actually test all parts and only does a quick visual "review" board of manufacturer submitted testing).
CARB also has no accountability to the public and are free to impose regulations as they see fit. As an example, when our elected legislation dropped the proposal to cut gasoline use in the state by 50% as part of in AB 350 the Governor has stated he will use CARB to make an end-run around the failed legislation and use their regulatory power to impose the cuts.
http://contracostabee.com/sb-350-drops-gasoline-cuts-in-california/
Without getting too far off tangent into a political thread (even if it relates to vehicle emissions), I'm for clean air, regulation, and controls but back to the subject at hand, diesel automobiles, the automakers have proven that they can build a clean diesel (even VW with other TDI models) but there needs to be one standard for the United States and preferably global markets for emissions.
If California wants to be the driving force at the national level and provide input to the EPA I'd have no problems with that. But if California or any state is allowed regulate and created their own different requirements it drives up the cost and complexity instead of one national strict standard. If we had a single national standard administered by the EPA it would reduce costs and allow automakers to offer more affordable diesel solutions in all markets instead of having to engineer specific solutions for some markets while being lax and using less pollution control devices in other markets in an attempt to recover money. That would allow us to clean up the air across the entire nation and not just shift pollution from your backyard to someone else's.
Then I thought about the long term maintenance costs as I planned to keep it for 6 years. Then I thought about buying a hybrid but I felt uneasy about the Lithium batteries and their storage and charging characteristics and also fear of fire and explosion in my garage ( j/k)
Then my local Hyundai dealer was offering 2015 Sonatas for $5300 off the MSRP, which I thought was a great deal as there was no way an hybrid or a diesel was going to save me $5K over the years that I planned to keep the car. So I bought the Sonata.
Reading the VW gate scandal, I feel I escaped with barely the skin of my teeth from buying a pork in a barrel Passat.
We'll need to agree to disagree. We're not going to convince each other.
I remember also mentioning, more than once that my experience has been with gassers versus diesels and not hybrids, as opposed to stevedebi.
Cost of maintaining a TDI for 6 years? Geezzzzzzz. @ 15,000 miles per year, I would have only changed oil three times ( yes 30,000 miles OCI's ) if you had dealer included maintenance maybe a max of five oil changes. Tires,brake pads and rotors need to be checked, but that's hardly diesel specific .
California really is mired in over-regulation, high taxes, crazy gas prices, and an expensive cost of living. That's why all the businesses have shut down and everyone has left.
One would have to be an extreme masochist to try to put it in a manufacturing facility in LA LA Land. I am sure that a lot of manufacturing plants that are already there, wish they weren't.
Here is an easy one, ask Apple Computer, which is arguably one of the most cash rich companies in the world, let alone America , what it would take to manufacture I Phones in LA LA land somewhere. You would probably start with four times to 8 times the price that it is now. That would probably be the good news, the bad news ? The logistics costs are probably all downhill from there.
"Volkswagen's emissions deception brings more scrutiny to entire industry
NHTSA Chief Wonders If Other Automakers Employ Same Tricks
Volkswagen's emissions deceptions have hurt the entire auto industry's credibility with federal regulators. Days after the world's largest automaker confessed to installing software that circumvents emissions standards on approximately a half-million diesel vehicles in the United States, a top federal safety official says the company's dishonesty will force government officials to view the entire auto industry with heightened skepticism.
"Your first question has to be, 'How extensive is it through the whole industry?' You don't know if it's a unique case or if other people are doing it," said Mark Rosekind, administrator of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. "The unfortunate part is you're not going to worry about one person. It's extended to the entire industry. If they did it, someone else could do it."
Rosekind's agency doesn't bear responsibility in investigating the emissions cheating. That falls to the Environmental Protection Agency, which served Volkswagen with a Notice of Violation on Friday that alleged the company's diesel vehicle equipped with 2.0-liter engines contained a defeat device that allowed the cars to detect when emissions testing was taking place. In normal driving situations, the cars spewed pollution at as much as 40 times allowable thresholds.
But because of the emissions cheating, NHTSA wonders if the German automaker has been cutting corners on safety standards or disingenuous on safety-related discussions. Speaking at an auto-industry event in Novi, MI, on Tuesday, Rosekind indicated no information can now be taken at face value. He used the phrase "Question assumptions" several times in discussing the case..."
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/22/volkswagens-emissions-deception-brings-more-scrutiny-to-entire/
You can bet your last dollar that if VW has done it, others have done it too with diesel as well as Gas.
One who gets caught is the thief
It also raises the question what's wrong with wanting to be greater than eighth rated economy? Disruptors can come along in/ @ anytime and drop that fast into also ran. What do you think the big German auto OEM's are feeling right now. If you W porch doesn't watch it, they may be the target of a hostile take over ambush!