Looking forward, it remains to be seen if they can field two vehicle lines & more importantly, have addressed the two diesel engines, components supply chains, for those lines.
GM's 2016 2.8 L Duramax & AM markets. 370 # ft torque, 27 mpg.6 sp A/T.
A while back, I called the 8 sp /A/T the new standard and Ram's 1500 9 speed A/T not ready for prime time. It remains to be seen if the other OEMs can implement good 9/10 sp A//T's, despite being very costly and complex.
Just saw a link to the NY Times version of that story over in CCBA.
"The software was designed to conceal the cars’ emissions of the pollutant nitrogen oxide, which contributes to the creation of ozone and smog. The pollutants are linked to a range of health problems, including asthma attacks and other respiratory diseases.
The allegations cover roughly 482,000 diesel passenger cars sold in the United States since 2009.
Affected diesel models include the 2009-15 Volkswagen Jetta, 2009–15 Beetle, 2009–15 Golf, 2014-15 Passat and 2009-15 Audi A3."
The Jalopnik story says the software could detect when an official test was being done. Must be related to the OBDII - hard to believe the software could detect a probe in the tailpipe.
So they REALLY expect us to believe that any car, let alone VW diesels can detect a probe in the tail pipe , officially and not unofficially and turn on and off the official/unofficial pollution foot prints????
It is utterly and completely amazing that the Obama administration is making no effort to hide the fact that they are scapegoating 1. VW 2. TDI's. 3. Sending a message to the other 98% gassers cheating , they will no longer tolerate gasser cheating. It begs the question why they don't go after the 98% of gassers where cheating has been the most prevalent? If anything it increases the percentage in volume of fines/penalties.
Further it would not surprise me if VW became the target because they didn't do the labor deal with the UAW @ the Passat gasser/TDI plant in TN. Coincidently, they name specifically only diesels that were built at the Tenn plant.
So they REALLY expect us to believe that any car, let alone VW diesels can detect a probe in the tail pipe , officially and not unofficially and turn on and off the official/unofficial pollution foot prints????
It is utterly and completely amazing that they are making no effort to hide the fact that they are scapegoating 1. VW 2. TDI's. 3. Sending a message to the other 98% gassers cheating , they will no longer tolerate gasser cheating. It begs the question why they don't go after the 98% of gassers where cheating has been the most prevalent? If anything it increases the percentage in volume of fines/penalties. Further it would not surprise me if VW became the target because they didn't do the labor deal with the UAW @ the Passat plant in TN.
You really need to calm down a bit here. Your biases are showing, very badly.
And what is all of this about 98% of gassers cheating? Can you provide a link to that? The only stories that I have seen were about gas mileage, this is the first story that I have seen about cheating on smog inspections. And there is a difference, if indeed VW did cheat on smog inspections, that is much more serious (in my view) than cheating on gas mileage.
Calm down? I am absolutely calm. This is almost wildly entertaining! The various articles that I've looked at say it almost explicitly. The New York Times can hardly be considered a right wing shrill. Politics, politics, politics to be crystal clear ! Again, I can't even make this stuff up.
VW will probably pay fines to avoid more expensive legal fees without admitting wrongdoing. (in my dreams, I am holding out for a free 2016/2017 replacement of my choice for the 2009)
Even if VW is guilty as sin, how much time did GM get for ignition switches that killed 100's of people? To this day, GM representation can reject ANY to all claims.
By all indications, they would have paid less than what VW is on the hook for (north of 18 B . They shed responsibility in bankruptcy.
The Obama administration gave them a taxpayers bail out. Labor got seats on the board and a significant ownership percentage. This does not count pension fund shares. We, of course got the bill! . In a twist, GM decides to sell some brands/models made in China in the U.S. ! Keep in mind that is with labor having two seats on the board, with none before.
The Obama administration holds GM up as a sterling example of trade, Am middle class values, and manufacturing, automotive and his administrations excellence.
The above article even cases of smog fraud , don't even rate a footnote. Who knows what still is secret, & that will never see the light of day ? Any one prosecuted here ? Ah, no ! ? Yet during testimony, the GM CEO makes a big deal of the fact that she's a mom !! ? I guess that's more important than this GM fiasco? Bottom line: off the proverbial & literal hook.
We have a CA power company that literally blew up a community (San Bruno) They knew years in advance of the dangerous conditions. There were other comedy of "errors". What happened ? The reining CEO got a $60 M golden parachute, for the role of scape goat! ( I'd like to thank the academy) I wish someone would fire my six for 60 million !
Later, the power company got the ability to charge the customers billions more and for years to come, as a consequence of blowing up the community!
I had my 2 year old Touareg TDI smogged this year. I have used this Star smog place for over ten years. He claims the diesel test is designed to go after people that circumvent the various emissions devices. And they do a visual/sniff test. Nothing like the test on gassers. Really just another tax.
I would say the EPA is just going after diesels because the UERO-PEONS are cracking down on diesels.
I had my 2 year old Touareg TDI smogged this year. I have used this Star smog place for over ten years. He claims the diesel test is designed to go after people that circumvent the various emissions devices. And they do a visual/sniff test. Nothing like the test on gassers. Really just another tax.
I would say the EPA is just going after diesels because the UERO-PEONS are cracking down on diesels.
Indeed, they do look specifically for evidence of tampering ! Anything with even the hint of modification is rejected out of hand.
Ditto on my three diesels, including one in question, the 2009 VW Jetta TDI. The 2014 diesel will require testing probably next year.
Major issue with selling diesels in the US is getting them to meet strict emissions limits. Now the major seller of "clean" diesels has been caught cheating, in a big way. A big deal, it would seem to me.
In consideration of the naïveté , and IF they are guilty, I am wondering what my 2009 Jetta TDI is mapped for? Assuming if it's true, they probably won't test for and publish the actual statistics. This would mean we will not know if it's a witch hunt or not . So that they can say claim diesels offer no real mpg advantage, the only result of recall will probably be a loss of MPG. In theory, again if true, it should only block out the non-authorized mapping.
An anomaly here is the 2009 does not have a DEF system. Instead it has a catalytic converter that can clog if it is fed way too much N0x. It has never clogged in 100,000 miles, ergo, cleaner burning. So IF mine clogs, then I could cite the reflashing as justification for free replacement.
The problem that you will have guessed, all this doubletalk permeates every portion of society. So this morning, I ate waffles with Log Cabin syrup. I am old enough to remember when log cabin syrup was sold in a tin shaped as a log cabin . The front label specifically says : no high fructose corn syrup! OK! So on the back ingredients label, you never will guess the first ingredient ? ,! Of course you get only one guess. And of course, everybody knows what that means when it is the first Ingredient? I guess they keep the HFCS in the BACK of the cabin ?
Apparently, when the EPA tested these vehicles, the emissions systems were working as advertised, and those results were used to calculate the mpg. If this is the case, the EPA estimates should not change.
Apparently, when the EPA tested these vehicles, the emissions systems were working as advertised, and those results were used to calculate the mpg. If this is the case, the EPA estimates should not change.
Well mine meets or exceeds the EPA estimates for app 100,000 miles now. In fact,the other three, which are not in question do also . Defacto that means that in theory, it, the one in question is running the legal mapping. That would be with or without the magical software changes/ morfs during smog only shop testing . So you can bet that if there are any emissions components that fail, I'm going to demand or join class action lawsuits to get those parts replaced free charge. Hopefully the reasons are obvious.
So I would only want to reflash, if they will guarantee better mpg. They would need to provide data showing mine was NOT in emissions and mpg compliance., aka had the working switcher roo software. The problem on this board, anyway is some to most of you think that I'm lying about the mpg now anyway .
"Matt DeLorenzo, Kelley Blue Book's managing editor of KBB.com, also chimed in on the subject, saying this may result in a major hit for diesels in the U.S.
“Not only is this a black eye and a huge problem for Volkswagen, from an industry perspective it may set back diesel technology as a means for automakers to reach the requirements for high fuel economy," DeLorenzo said. "Manufacturers were counting on diesels to deliver fuel economy comparable to hybrids without the expense of having an engine plus electric motors and a battery pack. We may have reached a tipping point where now diesels will become more expensive to make than hybrids. That coupled with European cities looking to ban or limit diesels, there will be a shift away from that technology to hybrids and electrification through pure battery EVs and fuel cells.”
The other side of it, the EPA has long been on record with anti diesel sentiment, laws policies and procedures. So why would you want to solve the problem while being vilified on all levels in the process ? It doesn't make much sense. The only real question remains : do the Powers That Be, policymakers want the passenger vehicle fleet to be 10% alternative fuels : aka one being diesel? It has been /was/is the stated goal?
The system/systems really want transportation to cost way more than it already does . So for example, a decade or more ago when some of the first EV vehicles came out, KWH prices were at about $.05-$.06 each . Ff to 2015 CA penalty tier @ .37 cents KWH. The cost has risen 740%. to 617%. Current prices to go R1 solar is app $ 35,000. so if your bill is approximately $100 month it out it take you about 29 to 30 years to break even.
So if one looks at the price of a gallon of diesel and it's headed back to a CA 1.85 or so, ( Siri says 1.49) when I first got the diesel in 2003. @ $2.44 it is @ 32%.
So if self generation or solar and wind generation is as environmentally friendly as they claim it is, why they still want to control it, if you're generating your own?
Letter from the California Air Resources Board to VW, dated Sept. 18. Looks like this investigation has been going on for almost two years.
"During a meeting on September 3, 2015, VW admitted to CARB and EPA staff that these vehicles were designed and manufactured with a defeat device to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative elements of the vehicles' emission control system. The defeat device was neither described not justified in the certification applications submitted to the EPA and CARB. Therefore, each vehicle so equipped would not be covered by a valid federal Certificate of Conformity (COC) or CARB Executive Order (EO) and would be in violation of federal and state law...."
I am sure all the diesel haters are having a party to celebrate. I cannot find anywhere that says VW has admitted to anything but selling 482k diesel cars. There has to be a difference between the diesels with Urea injection and the ones without.
In a statement, VW said it is cooperating with the government, but didn’t say if it has admitted wrongdoing.
It kind of reminds me of the University that found the cause of Toyota Sudden acceleration. Of course they shut that guy right up when Toyota threatened to pull their big bucks from the school. So how do we know this School in WV is on the up and up. Or are they looking for MONEY?
The VW emissions issue came to the attention of EPA in 2014 after independent analysis by researchers at West Virginia University, working with the International Council on Clean Transportation, a non-governmental organization, raised questions about emissions levels.
The reality doesn't even come close. I know, for example that the Ad Blue consumption is actually better or actually very good. In other words, way better than my roughly 4.5 gals for 15,000 miles and in most cases even way better. The nexus with my 12 VW Touareg is threefold: 1. Not on the affected list 2. Way more powerful 3. Been to the smog only station
Ad Blue consumption would literally go through the roof IF N0x consumption were as alleged, between 10 and 40 times greater then what was specified . So are you willing to bet that after reflashing, Ad Blue consumption will fall precipitiously, due to wholesale decreases in N0x emissions? To boot not a wit of owners complaint of excessive Ad Blue consumption! ?
The fact that there's a lack of technical explanation, really indicatesa a huge blanket is thrown over the factual information. Hugh, huge, huge, red flags for me. The fact that the CA to 49 state smog only tests did not catch it or were fooled, shows how utterly useless and toothless smog laws & enforcement are. In fact, it de facto supports my and others assertions that they were only just for revenue.
I'm still puzzled that VW would do this. But, assuming the EPA and CARB are correct, VW is now in a very difficult situation. As someone said somewhere else, I assume that for a while VW will play Colonel Klink from that terrible show of my youth, Hogan's Heroes, and claim: "I know nothink!"
But if the defeat was put on as claimed because the cars otherwise are way out of compliance, then it's not clear that they can be fixed. Even if they can be fixed, mpg and performance will likely drop, and owners will be understandably upset.
And resale value has just taken an overnight dive. Will VW end up needing to buy back these cars?
And will be VW even still be able to sell diesels in the US? If the cars are out of compliance, and if a quick software fix can't be implemented, then at some point might there be a stop sale order?
Apparently there are problems with VW's diesels meeting smog regs in Europe as well, but the European regulators have not done anything yet....
Seems like a terribly messy situation.
How can VW get ahead of this in terms of engineering and PR?
All of this seems atypical of German culture. Seriously. But when I think back to some of the cheap engineering bits of the 1987 Jetta I owned long ago, which broke repeatedly, I wonder.
VW might be wise to utilize what Rahm Emanuel has been alledged to have said: " never let a crisis go to waste". If they handle it correctly, VW demand increases can follow. In addition, they need to find ways to disrupt the disrupters.
VW might be wise to utilize what Rohm Emauel manual has been alledged to have said " never let a crisis go to waste". If they handle it correctly, demand increases can follow
Perhaps.
I think Michael Horn, who is President and CEO of VW of America, needs to get out in front of this right away. My guess is he had nothing to do with it, but he needs to state up front that VW will do whatever it takes to fix it and restore customer trust. He needs to be open about what actually happened. If it's as bad as it seems, and VW intentionally rewrote code to defeat the smog controls and violate the law, they should just admit the worst and get it over with.
Customers with affected VW diesels should be given some kind of voluntary compensation asap from VW without waiting for a lawsuit.
MICHAEL HORN Michael Horn - President and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America, Inc.
Michael Horn is the president and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America (VWGOA) as well as president for the Volkswagen of America brand. Horn assumed this position in January 2014.
Horn joined VWGOA with twenty three years of experience with Volkswagen. Most recently, Horn served as the Global Head of After Sales at Volkswagen AG (VW). Horn joined Volkswagen in 1990 and has held many roles within the Volkswagen Brand, including Head of Volkswagen sales North West Europe, Head of sales and marketing luxury class vehicles, and Head of sales for Europe since 2004.
Horn, a native from Hamburg, Germany is 51 years old. He earned a bachelor’s degree in Business Administration from the European University in Antwerp, Belgium and a Master of Business Administration from the University of San Francisco.
Given the timing of these Obama administration releaseis, it is another indication that this is politically motivated. It is blatantly blackmaiing VW, by holding hostage the billions of dollars of 2016 VW cars, that are either at the ports or in the production pipeline.
It is truly a tragedy that the current administration has (for the two terms in office) politicized parts of government, etc. that should not be politicized. this EPA fiasco is just the latest of literally hundreds of things. I think they started planning this ambush after the UAW's Union organizing loss at the VW Tennessee plant.
Well, if you think all pollution controls are political, and I suppose in some sense that's true, then....
But this problem seems specific to VW. And it seems like we don't have the full story at this point.
Under what exact circumstances does the "defeat" kick in?
If the code is rewritten so the pollution controls aren't defeated, what are the losses to power and mileage? And will it then pass the smog rules in effect?
If all it takes is a software change, then it's seems more doable.
But if they have to engineer and add smog equipment to old cars that have been on the road for years....?
Finally, I've wondered for years why VW seems to be the only major manufacturer will a large line of diesels at affordable prices.
Mazda and others have hinted that they are going to get in the game, but then engineering problems seem to make it unworkable. It seems like now we might have the answer.
But again, I'm not so sure. I come at it from a different angle than ruking1, but I think more of the story needs to come out.
On another site, someone made an interesting point. They said if you mess with the EPA you're probably mostly going to get a slap on the wrist. But if you mess with and lie to the California Air Resources Board, then CARB is going to be a tougher customer to deal with. CARB's letter sounds reasonable to me, but they've clearly put the ball in VW's court, saying: how are you going to fix this?
You're basically agreeing with points I made in an earlier post.
I think some of the lack of technical information stems from a total bureaucratic misunderstanding of how the SCR system works. In the case of the 2009 Jetta TDI, how the catalytic converter functions.
It's not really a stretch. Even those interested in diesels and follow this diesel thread, but don't have one: their glaze over when I start using math to show the logic of some of my posts, or "matching out" some of the myths subscribed to.
Has anyone followed a recent VW TDI spewing black smoke? When they say 10-40 times as much as legal. How much is that? So far VW has not commented. Is this a hatchet job by an over zealous Eco Nuts? If it can pass smog tests in the few states that bother with diesels, it should not be a problem that a simple re-write of the code could rectify. The code may have been rewritten as a patch for states that do the tests. The EPA their puppet masters at CARB should come to an agreement with the EU on emissions, rather than play their stupid little one ups-manship games. CARB has never liked VW diesels no matter how clean they are. Sort of like the whole thing with the EPA and clean coal. I like breathing clean air as much as anyone. The exhaust from my wife's premium burning Lexus is far more noxious than our TDI. And the Lexus is 25 years old and just passed smog test with flying colors. I don't trust the EPA and especially CARB.
VW, which also owns Audi, said in a statement it is cooperating with the investigation, but declined further comment.
I grew up in LA from the 1960s to the 1980s. The air was a foul and toxic brew most of the time—rather like much of China now.
But today, with a big increase in population in Southern California, and almost double the number of cars, the air is much cleaner and healthier. That's in large part because a car today puts out c.99% less pollution than a car from 1970.
I give a lot of credit to the California Air Resources Board for that.
Has anyone followed a recent VW TDI spewing black smoke? When they say 10-40 times as much as legal. How much is that? So far VW has not commented. Is this a hatchet job by an over zealous Eco Nuts? If it can pass smog tests in the few states that bother with diesels, it should not be a problem that a simple re-write of the code could rectify. The code may have been rewritten as a patch for states that do the tests. The EPA their puppet masters at CARB should come to an agreement with the EU on emissions, rather than play their stupid little one ups-manship games. CARB has never liked VW diesels no matter how clean they are. Sort of like the whole thing with the EPA and clean coal. I like breathing clean air as much as anyone. The exhaust from my wife's premium burning Lexus is far more noxious than our TDI. And the Lexus is 25 years old and just passed smog test with flying colors. I don't trust the EPA and especially CARB.
VW, which also owns Audi, said in a statement it is cooperating with the investigation, but declined further comment.
If one applys the same N0x standards and measurement techniques that diesels have to follow, to any GASSER, i.e. put a tail pipe or the computer VAG.com equivalent and measure, any gasser would totally blow the N0x measurements. You know the same ones they ( 98% plus gassers) are required to meet?
So for the Eco nuts to come out in effect, from the position that hybrids and gassers generate absolutely no pollution, is totally bogus and misleading.
With the EPA's overall record on global warming. land grabs, water control, diesel bias, etc. there is no doubt that they have a political agenda. I am certainly willing to wait and see the whole story here.
With the EPA's overall record on global warming. land grabs, water control, diesel bias, etc. there is no doubt that they have a political agenda. I am certainly willing to wait and see the whole story here.
On a damned if you do or damned if you don't note, the administration is going to have to decide, if it is worth losing all the American VW jobs. If they declare bankruptcy, one issue might be: where is the 16 billion in fines the administration were counting on going to come from ?
They also forget VW is a unionist German company. As such, the unions have basically made it verboten to effect cost-cutting or increase efficiencies on the labor side. That needs disrupting. so far no political will.
I say keep a very well known bankruptcy firm on retainer.. Let the BHO admin know a filing might come. Get ready to play Texas Hold Em with the big boys . ( not the only game, where a bluffed pair of two's can beat something better) Remember bankruptcy worked for GM and FCA even FORD came close. . Of course, don't forget the airlines.
On a purchasing note, this is really good time to be in the market for 2016 VW TDI's.
$18 billion would be the maximum possible fine. Hard to predict how big the actual number will be (fine plus recall costs, class action dollars...).
"In recent high-profile recalls, there has been very little — if any — impact on sales. With so many recalls in the news, they easily become white noise for a lot of consumers, and they don't appear to have much of an influence on shopping decisions. Nevertheless, Edmunds encourages all car owners to take any recall notices seriously and follow the instructions provided by their dealers." (Auto Remarketing)
Then again, VW has had trouble gaining traction in the US even without this mess.
"London will follow Paris and ban diesel cars, campaigners warn
Pollution is so high in the capital, and diesel fumes so damaging, experts believe Boris Johnson will follow Paris' lead and ban the cars from London's roads within the decade....In Britain, about 29,000 premature deaths a year are thought to be caused by air pollution and people living in London, Birmingham and Leeds will be exposed to dangerous air pollution from engine fumes until the 2030s unless stricter rules are imposed, according to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs...."
"...The ads were a pretty big campaign from Volkswagen USA, and accordingly weren’t just covered by business magazines like AdAge and Fast Company, but were even touted by automotive publications like Car And Driver, which touted them as “hilarious,” while noting their “excellent viral mileage.”
But for all the praise and publicity the ads generated, Volkswagen USA seems to be trying to now scrub them from the Internet. A quick check of Volkswagen USA’s YouTube page shows a record of the ads being there, but now all that’s returned is a big “Deleted Video” sign.The video was removed at Volkswagen’s behest, according to YouTube.
A further search of Volkswagen USA’s YouTube page shows that not only was the “Diesel Old Wives’ Tales” series completely removed, but a large number of other videos concerning diesels appears to have been removed as well. Its “TV Commercials” playlist now not only features missing gaps where videos were deleted, but also where videos have been set to private by the company..."
"London will follow Paris and ban diesel cars, campaigners warn
Pollution is so high in the capital, and diesel fumes so damaging, experts believe Boris Johnson will follow Paris' lead and ban the cars from London's roads within the decade....In Britain, about 29,000 premature deaths a year are thought to be caused by air pollution and people living in London, Birmingham and Leeds will be exposed to dangerous air pollution from engine fumes until the 2030s unless stricter rules are imposed, according to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs...."
Yes, they are, but what does it mean in context? VW, GM and Toyota are in virtual year over year competition for first place . I don't think it's a stretch to say that GM got a MAJOR leg up when they declared bankruptcy. They are even threatening to be profitable for the first time in a long time ! Imagine that ? Funny how unions let them get away with that, when they have two seats on the board and shares. This is not to mention the unknown number of GM shares they hold in pension funds.
The cities smog issue is a total smokescreen . (No pun intended) The answer is fairly simplei: disallow ANY vehicle access to London that is not an EV! Do you have any doubt how long THAT would last ? They don't even ban fire place use? As you know, wood-burning fireplaces are not banned and are totally emissions UNabated.
..."Science says 6,200 grams of heart-stopping, asthma-inducing particulate matter a year, vs. 23 grams from a natural gas fireplace "...
New London taxi cabs, could have easily been EV's, are diesels ( hybrid ) with 6sp manuals. London taxi cabs ( canary in the coal mine concept) do an average of 73,500 miles per year.
So how do you think the London Elite gets around? Tesla EV's?(MSRP. App $86,000 U.S.)
It's interesting to read the comments in the German press, ard.de in this case. (Bing translation link)
Here's one:
"Callback for VW
That all OEM's "cheat in the exhaust gas limit values" is unfortunately long known. Only in Europe proceed just as always not against it, even though everyone knows the tricks.
Fortunately the US authorities proceed, however stringent, whether it is now VW or even if suspected here equal discrimination again will own American OEM's. Therefore, you should have objectively see the callback and be fair.
Remains to be seen how VW here will improve, because the entire strict exhaust gas values can be met only with significantly reduced performance. The exhaust tests simply to determine if the steering wheel when driving off the prescribed cycle E.g. not moving, then the car can are actually only on the chassis dynamometer, and if then the hood lock is open... Similar to almost everyone has his "software query" in the control unit in it, especially here in Europe."
I thought the Toyota thing was due to, well, Toyota drivers
Vee haf vayz of making u talk
More seriously, after the smoke clears, I predict resale values will surge back and get better! The unaffect TDI's should rise even higher, I.e., Touaregs
Remains to be seen how VW here will improve, because the entire strict exhaust gas values can be met only with significantly reduced performance. The exhaust tests simply to determine if the steering wheel when driving off the prescribed cycle E.g. not moving, then the car can are actually only on the chassis dynamometer, and if then the hood lock is open...
From the point of view of a programmer, this would be ridiculously easy:
If ((steering.wheel.is.stationary) .AND. (hood.lock.is.open) ) then run.strict.emissions.controls else do.not.run.strict.emissions.controls endif
If the government (EPA or whomever) had some real hackers working there, they could reverse engineer the software and look for the above code. You would have to be working in assembly language, actual machine code, but there are people who can do that. In the old days, I did some of this in Intel x86 machine code. I wonder what kind of processor (CPU) is running in these VW TDIs ?
I have to say, if I owned one of these, and the fix involved significantly lowered performance (power, fuel mileage, etc), then I would expect VW to buy back the car. End of story.
The key here is "significantly lowered". If 5 to 10% lower, then a payout of a few hundred dollars MIGHT suffice. If 10 to 20% lower, hell no, give me back my money, this is NOT what I signed up for. And that could lead to bankruptcy for VW.
Vag.com can be run off a laptop plugged into the OBD and run real time when the engine and drive train is in operation. Both the cable, accessories and software program have been available for years.
Comments
This old article really calls into question why FCA choked themselves out of the year 13/14 before RAM 1500 diesel market.
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2014/02/dealers-swamp-fca-with-orders-for-new-ram-diesel/
Looking forward, it remains to be seen if they can field two vehicle lines & more importantly, have addressed the two diesel engines, components supply chains, for those lines.
GM's 2016 2.8 L Duramax & AM markets. 370 # ft torque, 27 mpg.6 sp A/T.
http://www.dieselworldmag.com/first-look-gms-2-8l-duramax-canyoncolorado-beyond
Good news upon good news? Lower gas prices in 2016?
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Energy-Industry/2015/09/17/US-gasoline-demand-flattens-out/8941442482585/
A while back, I called the 8 sp /A/T the new standard and Ram's 1500 9 speed A/T not ready for prime time. It remains to be seen if the other OEMs can implement good 9/10 sp A//T's, despite being very costly and complex.
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/vw-drops-plans-10-speed-dsg-dual-clutch-080000904.html
http://jalopnik.com/epa-orders-volkswagen-to-recall-482-000-diesel-cars-for-1731665972
"The software was designed to conceal the cars’ emissions of the pollutant nitrogen oxide, which contributes to the creation of ozone and smog. The pollutants are linked to a range of health problems, including asthma attacks and other respiratory diseases.
The allegations cover roughly 482,000 diesel passenger cars sold in the United States since 2009.
Affected diesel models include the 2009-15 Volkswagen Jetta, 2009–15 Beetle, 2009–15 Golf, 2014-15 Passat and 2009-15 Audi A3."
The Jalopnik story says the software could detect when an official test was being done. Must be related to the OBDII - hard to believe the software could detect a probe in the tailpipe.
It is utterly and completely amazing that the Obama administration is making no effort to hide the fact that they are scapegoating 1. VW 2. TDI's. 3. Sending a message to the other 98% gassers cheating , they will no longer tolerate gasser cheating. It begs the question why they don't go after the 98% of gassers where cheating has been the most prevalent? If anything it increases the percentage in volume of fines/penalties.
Further it would not surprise me if VW became the target because they didn't do the labor deal with the UAW @ the Passat gasser/TDI plant in TN. Coincidently, they name specifically only diesels that were built at the Tenn plant.
And what is all of this about 98% of gassers cheating? Can you provide a link to that? The only stories that I have seen were about gas mileage, this is the first story that I have seen about cheating on smog inspections. And there is a difference, if indeed VW did cheat on smog inspections, that is much more serious (in my view) than cheating on gas mileage.
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/volkswagen-charged-with-hacking-482000-diesels-to-129357726737.html
Calm down? I am absolutely calm. This is almost wildly entertaining! The various articles that I've looked at say it almost explicitly. The New York Times can hardly be considered a right wing shrill. Politics, politics, politics to be crystal clear ! Again, I can't even make this stuff up.
VW will probably pay fines to avoid more expensive legal fees without admitting wrongdoing.
(in my dreams, I am holding out for a free 2016/2017 replacement of my choice for the 2009)
Even if VW is guilty as sin, how much time did GM get for ignition switches that killed 100's of people? To this day, GM representation can reject ANY to all claims.
By all indications, they would have paid less than what VW is on the hook for (north of 18 B
The Obama administration gave them a taxpayers bail out. Labor got seats on the board and a significant ownership percentage. This does not count pension fund shares. We, of course got the bill! . In a twist, GM decides to sell some brands/models made in China in the U.S. ! Keep in mind that is with labor having two seats on the board, with none before.
The Obama administration holds GM up as a sterling example of trade, Am middle class values, and manufacturing, automotive and his administrations excellence.
The above article even cases of smog fraud , don't even rate a footnote. Who knows what still is secret, & that will never see the light of day ? Any one prosecuted here ? Ah, no ! ? Yet during testimony, the GM CEO makes a big deal of the fact that she's a mom !! ? I guess that's more important than this GM fiasco? Bottom line: off the proverbial & literal hook.
We have a CA power company that literally blew up a community (San Bruno) They knew years in advance of the dangerous conditions. There were other comedy of "errors". What happened ? The reining CEO got a $60 M golden parachute, for the role of scape goat! ( I'd like to thank the academy) I wish someone would fire my six for 60 million !
Later, the power company got the ability to charge the customers billions more and for years to come, as a consequence of blowing up the community!
I would say the EPA is just going after diesels because the UERO-PEONS are cracking down on diesels.
Ditto on my three diesels, including one in question, the 2009 VW Jetta TDI. The 2014 diesel will require testing probably next year.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
An anomaly here is the 2009 does not have a DEF system. Instead it has a catalytic converter that can clog if it is fed way too much N0x. It has never clogged in 100,000 miles, ergo, cleaner burning. So IF mine clogs, then I could cite the reflashing as justification for free replacement.
The problem that you will have guessed, all this doubletalk permeates every portion of society. So this morning, I ate waffles with Log Cabin syrup. I am old enough to remember when log cabin syrup was sold in a tin shaped as a log cabin . The front label specifically says : no high fructose corn syrup! OK! So on the back ingredients label, you never will guess the first ingredient ? ,! Of course you get only one guess. And of course, everybody knows what that means when it is the first Ingredient? I guess they keep the HFCS in the BACK of the cabin ?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
So I would only want to reflash, if they will guarantee better mpg. They would need to provide data showing mine was NOT in emissions and mpg compliance., aka had the working switcher roo software. The problem on this board, anyway is some to most of you think that I'm lying about the mpg now anyway .
“Not only is this a black eye and a huge problem for Volkswagen, from an industry perspective it may set back diesel technology as a means for automakers to reach the requirements for high fuel economy," DeLorenzo said. "Manufacturers were counting on diesels to deliver fuel economy comparable to hybrids without the expense of having an engine plus electric motors and a battery pack. We may have reached a tipping point where now diesels will become more expensive to make than hybrids. That coupled with European cities looking to ban or limit diesels, there will be a shift away from that technology to hybrids and electrification through pure battery EVs and fuel cells.”
EPA, Calif. say certain VW diesels violate Clean Air Act (autoremarketing.com)
The system/systems really want transportation to cost way more than it already does . So for example, a decade or more ago when some of the first EV vehicles came out, KWH prices were at about $.05-$.06 each . Ff to 2015 CA penalty tier @ .37 cents KWH. The cost has risen 740%. to 617%. Current prices to go R1 solar is app $ 35,000. so if your bill is approximately $100 month it out it take you about 29 to 30 years to break even.
So if one looks at the price of a gallon of diesel and it's headed back to a CA 1.85 or so, ( Siri says 1.49) when I first got the diesel in 2003. @ $2.44 it is @ 32%.
So if self generation or solar and wind generation is as environmentally friendly as they claim it is, why they still want to control it, if you're generating your own?
Letter from the California Air Resources Board to VW, dated Sept. 18. Looks like this investigation has been going on for almost two years.
"During a meeting on September 3, 2015, VW admitted to CARB and EPA staff that these vehicles were designed and manufactured with a defeat device to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative elements of the vehicles' emission control system. The defeat device was neither described not justified in the certification applications submitted to the EPA and CARB. Therefore, each vehicle so equipped would not be covered by a valid federal Certificate of Conformity (COC) or CARB Executive Order (EO) and would be in violation of federal and state law...."
In a statement, VW said it is cooperating with the government, but didn’t say if it has admitted wrongdoing.
It kind of reminds me of the University that found the cause of Toyota Sudden acceleration. Of course they shut that guy right up when Toyota threatened to pull their big bucks from the school. So how do we know this School in WV is on the up and up. Or are they looking for MONEY?
The VW emissions issue came to the attention of EPA in 2014 after independent analysis by researchers at West Virginia University, working with the International Council on Clean Transportation, a non-governmental organization, raised questions about emissions levels.
I'll wait to hear the fat lady sing...
http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswagen-allegedly-openly-violated-epa-diesel-laws-could-face-billions-in-fines/
The reality doesn't even come close. I know, for example that the Ad Blue consumption is actually better or actually very good. In other words, way better than my roughly 4.5 gals for 15,000 miles and in most cases even way better. The nexus with my 12 VW Touareg is threefold: 1. Not on the affected list 2. Way more powerful 3. Been to the smog only station
Ad Blue consumption would literally go through the roof IF N0x consumption were as alleged, between 10 and 40 times greater then what was specified . So are you willing to bet that after reflashing, Ad Blue consumption will fall precipitiously, due to wholesale decreases in N0x emissions? To boot not a wit of owners complaint of excessive Ad Blue consumption! ?
The fact that there's a lack of technical explanation, really indicatesa a huge blanket is thrown over the factual information. Hugh, huge, huge, red flags for me. The fact that the CA to 49 state smog only tests did not catch it or were fooled, shows how utterly useless and toothless smog laws & enforcement are. In fact, it de facto supports my and others assertions that they were only just for revenue.
But if the defeat was put on as claimed because the cars otherwise are way out of compliance, then it's not clear that they can be fixed. Even if they can be fixed, mpg and performance will likely drop, and owners will be understandably upset.
And resale value has just taken an overnight dive. Will VW end up needing to buy back these cars?
And will be VW even still be able to sell diesels in the US? If the cars are out of compliance, and if a quick software fix can't be implemented, then at some point might there be a stop sale order?
Apparently there are problems with VW's diesels meeting smog regs in Europe as well, but the European regulators have not done anything yet....
Seems like a terribly messy situation.
How can VW get ahead of this in terms of engineering and PR?
"As a former Volkswagen owner, I have to say that I am deeply shocked that they were able to make a piece of electronics that works."
I think Michael Horn, who is President and CEO of VW of America, needs to get out in front of this right away. My guess is he had nothing to do with it, but he needs to state up front that VW will do whatever it takes to fix it and restore customer trust. He needs to be open about what actually happened. If it's as bad as it seems, and VW intentionally rewrote code to defeat the smog controls and violate the law, they should just admit the worst and get it over with.
Customers with affected VW diesels should be given some kind of voluntary compensation asap from VW without waiting for a lawsuit.
https://media.vw.com/page/13/
MICHAEL HORN
Michael Horn - President and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America, Inc.
Michael Horn is the president and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America (VWGOA) as well as president for the Volkswagen of America brand. Horn assumed this position in January 2014.
Horn joined VWGOA with twenty three years of experience with Volkswagen. Most recently, Horn served as the Global Head of After Sales at Volkswagen AG (VW). Horn joined Volkswagen in 1990 and has held many roles within the Volkswagen Brand, including Head of Volkswagen sales North West Europe, Head of sales and marketing luxury class vehicles, and Head of sales for Europe since 2004.
Horn, a native from Hamburg, Germany is 51 years old. He earned a bachelor’s degree in Business Administration from the European University in Antwerp, Belgium and a Master of Business Administration from the University of San Francisco.
It is truly a tragedy that the current administration has (for the two terms in office) politicized parts of government, etc. that should not be politicized. this EPA fiasco is just the latest of literally hundreds of things. I think they started planning this ambush after the UAW's Union organizing loss at the VW Tennessee plant.
But this problem seems specific to VW. And it seems like we don't have the full story at this point.
Under what exact circumstances does the "defeat" kick in?
If the code is rewritten so the pollution controls aren't defeated, what are the losses to power and mileage? And will it then pass the smog rules in effect?
If all it takes is a software change, then it's seems more doable.
But if they have to engineer and add smog equipment to old cars that have been on the road for years....?
Finally, I've wondered for years why VW seems to be the only major manufacturer will a large line of diesels at affordable prices.
Mazda and others have hinted that they are going to get in the game, but then engineering problems seem to make it unworkable. It seems like now we might have the answer.
But again, I'm not so sure. I come at it from a different angle than ruking1, but I think more of the story needs to come out.
I think some of the lack of technical information stems from a total bureaucratic misunderstanding of how the SCR system works. In the case of the 2009 Jetta TDI, how the catalytic converter functions.
It's not really a stretch. Even those interested in diesels and follow this diesel thread, but don't have one: their glaze over when I start using math to show the logic of some of my posts, or "matching out" some of the myths subscribed to.
VW, which also owns Audi, said in a statement it is cooperating with the investigation, but declined further comment.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/b4016f811cf441ceaef7bce4c167eabc/epa-says-vw-intentionally-violates-clean-air-standards
But today, with a big increase in population in Southern California, and almost double the number of cars, the air is much cleaner and healthier. That's in large part because a car today puts out c.99% less pollution than a car from 1970.
I give a lot of credit to the California Air Resources Board for that.
So for the Eco nuts to come out in effect, from the position that hybrids and gassers generate absolutely no pollution, is totally bogus and misleading.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
http://247wallst.com/autos/2015/09/19/vw-cheating-will-end-u-s-recovery/
Aka, self inflicted gun shot wounds.
They also forget VW is a unionist German company. As such, the unions have basically made it verboten to effect cost-cutting or increase efficiencies on the labor side. That needs disrupting. so far no political will.
I say keep a very well known bankruptcy firm on retainer.. Let the BHO admin know a filing might come. Get ready to play Texas Hold Em with the big boys . ( not the only game, where a bluffed pair of two's can beat something better) Remember bankruptcy worked for GM and FCA even FORD came close. . Of course, don't forget the airlines.
On a purchasing note, this is really good time to be in the market for 2016 VW TDI's.
$18 billion would be the maximum possible fine. Hard to predict how big the actual number will be (fine plus recall costs, class action dollars...).
"In recent high-profile recalls, there has been very little — if any — impact on sales. With so many recalls in the news, they easily become white noise for a lot of consumers, and they don't appear to have much of an influence on shopping decisions. Nevertheless, Edmunds encourages all car owners to take any recall notices seriously and follow the instructions provided by their dealers." (Auto Remarketing)
Then again, VW has had trouble gaining traction in the US even without this mess.
For diesel fans things are looking tough all over. London and Paris say diesels might be banned:
ww.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/11280067/London-will-follow-Paris-and-ban-diesel-cars-campaigners-warn.html
"London will follow Paris and ban diesel cars, campaigners warn
Pollution is so high in the capital, and diesel fumes so damaging, experts believe Boris Johnson will follow Paris' lead and ban the cars from London's roads within the decade....In Britain, about 29,000 premature deaths a year are thought to be caused by air pollution and people living in London, Birmingham and Leeds will be exposed to dangerous air pollution from engine fumes until the 2030s unless stricter rules are imposed, according to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs...."
http://jalopnik.com/why-did-volkswagen-delete-all-of-its-diesel-ads-from-yo-1731691453
"...The ads were a pretty big campaign from Volkswagen USA, and accordingly weren’t just covered by business magazines like AdAge and Fast Company, but were even touted by automotive publications like Car And Driver, which touted them as “hilarious,” while noting their “excellent viral mileage.”
But for all the praise and publicity the ads generated, Volkswagen USA seems to be trying to now scrub them from the Internet. A quick check of Volkswagen USA’s YouTube page shows a record of the ads being there, but now all that’s returned is a big “Deleted Video” sign.The video was removed at Volkswagen’s behest, according to YouTube.
A further search of Volkswagen USA’s YouTube page shows that not only was the “Diesel Old Wives’ Tales” series completely removed, but a large number of other videos concerning diesels appears to have been removed as well. Its “TV Commercials” playlist now not only features missing gaps where videos were deleted, but also where videos have been set to private by the company..."
The cities smog issue is a total smokescreen . (No pun intended) The answer is fairly simplei: disallow ANY vehicle access to London that is not an EV!
..."Science says 6,200 grams of heart-stopping, asthma-inducing particulate matter a year, vs. 23 grams from a natural gas fireplace "...
New London taxi cabs, could have easily been EV's, are diesels ( hybrid ) with 6sp manuals. London taxi cabs ( canary in the coal mine concept) do an average of 73,500 miles per year.
So how do you think the London Elite gets around? Tesla EV's?(MSRP. App $86,000 U.S.)
Here's one:
"Callback for VW
That all OEM's "cheat in the exhaust gas limit values" is unfortunately long known. Only in Europe proceed just as always not against it, even though everyone knows the tricks.
Fortunately the US authorities proceed, however stringent, whether it is now VW or even if suspected here equal discrimination again will own American OEM's. Therefore, you should have objectively see the callback and be fair.
Remains to be seen how VW here will improve, because the entire strict exhaust gas values can be met only with significantly reduced performance. The exhaust tests simply to determine if the steering wheel when driving off the prescribed cycle E.g. not moving, then the car can are actually only on the chassis dynamometer, and if then the hood lock is open... Similar to almost everyone has his "software query" in the control unit in it, especially here in Europe."
But it seems like they are claiming that these "cheats" or "defeats" might go beyond VW?
I thought the Toyota thing was due to, well, Toyota drivers
More seriously, after the smoke clears, I predict resale values will surge back and get better! The unaffect TDI's should rise even higher, I.e., Touaregs
If ((steering.wheel.is.stationary) .AND. (hood.lock.is.open) ) then
run.strict.emissions.controls
else
do.not.run.strict.emissions.controls
endif
If the government (EPA or whomever) had some real hackers working there, they could reverse engineer the software and look for the above code. You would have to be working in assembly language, actual machine code, but there are people who can do that. In the old days, I did some of this in Intel x86 machine code. I wonder what kind of processor (CPU) is running in these VW TDIs ?
I have to say, if I owned one of these, and the fix involved significantly lowered performance (power, fuel mileage, etc), then I would expect VW to buy back the car. End of story.
The key here is "significantly lowered". If 5 to 10% lower, then a payout of a few hundred dollars MIGHT suffice. If 10 to 20% lower, hell no, give me back my money, this is NOT what I signed up for. And that could lead to bankruptcy for VW.