What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice

Of course, the BLADDER won't last that long, but I suppose it depends...


Good one, we stop every couple hundred miles to stretch the legs and use the facilities. We like Carl's Jr restrooms overall. And they give senior discount. Restrooms in most gas stations are less than clean. We avoid McDonalds with their air dryers. Makes it hard to rinse off your face and get it dry. What were they thinking? The person that can go over 600 miles without a potty break is one tough hombre.

stever

Some good news. (healio.com)

And up next, e-diesel. (BBC)

Finally, Phoenix wants diesel tax to fix truck damage. Phoenix, Oregon that is. (mailtribune.com)

ruking1

http://www.dieselforum.org/index.cfm

I'm not sure what took me so long to find this diesel website.

There's one little section that list California diesels registered at 650,000+. With 24 million vehicles in California, that puts the diesel car population @ 2.7% The 2013 US figure is 269.3 M. (NHTSA)

gagrice

stever said:

Some good news. (healio.com)

And up next, e-diesel. (BBC)

Finally, Phoenix wants diesel tax to fix truck damage. Phoenix, Oregon that is. (mailtribune.com)

Pretty funny looking at gas buddy, they are already charging 30-50 cents more per gallon than the towns around them. I owned property in the town next to them Talent in the 60-70s. I got screwed big time by the county when I went to divide my 13 acres in 1975. They were already totally taken over by CA liberals.

ruking1

An interesting take about an upcoming 2016 Subaru gasser. The article claims a significant mpg drop from 26.4 for the turbocharged version. It also seems like a Golf Sport Wagon TDI would be cheaper and post better mpg (fuelly.com 43.7) ! ? My nexus are similar driving conditions, location and the fact that my 09 VW Jetta TDI easily posts 40 mpg in similar driving conditions .

http://www.cnet.com/products/2016-subaru-forester/2/

Subaru is one of the best make cars America, but for me the CVT would be a deal breaker, if I was in the market for a gasser.

stever

I dunno, people are now saying the new 8 and 9 speeds transmissions hunt so much for the mpg savings, that the CVTs feel more responsive and drive better. Seems to mostly be Nissan owners bragging on the CVTs - kind of ironic since Nissan really had growing pains with their early CVTs.

qbrozen

I've heard the complaint about the Chrysler 9-speed, but I haven't driven one yet. I can tell you my Caddy's 8-speed doesn't do it. I've driven a Note and an Altima with the CVT. It seemed fine in the Altima, although I didn't push it hard at all. In the Note, however, it was pretty atrocious. Not so much the transmission itself, but the fact that, when you want to move, you have to hear that awful thrashy engine at sustained high RPMs. It got on my nerves in a matter of a few minutes into the test drive.

ruking1

22.9 miles a gallon on Fuelly.com 16 Subaru Forester, I should probably post this.

15 VW Golf TDI gets approximately 43.7 mpg, 91% better fuel mileage, for a competitive vehicle . Put those into 180,000 miles calculations ( @ avg 15,000 per yr, for 12 yrs avg age of vehicle fleet) and that is 7,860 gal vs 4,119 gal. @ current prices ULSD $ 2.44/$10,050. versus RUG $ 2.61/ $ 20,515 = $ 10,465 SAVED using a TDI. Not to make people's eyes glaze over, but that fuel savings would actually find me another 187,426 miles for 367,426 miles. Or $ 10,465 toward a NEW car (diesel?).

stever

So the owners are coming in lower than the 25 combined? EPA is 22 city, 29 highway.

Hm, 4 reports. The new Forester came out in 2014. and the Fuelly number for the 14's is 25.6, 25 for the 2015s. Two engine choices and two transmission choices available.

But the lower numbers are a reason to stick with a FWD Golf.

ruking1

That is also a bit surprising in that gassers take app 1,000 miles and diesels take up to 30,000 to 50,000 miles to break in. While anecdotal, this appears to be true for each of my 4 diesels, spanning 13 model years . So normally at the 30,000 mile mark, I might get between one and 2 mpg better. Using the MB GLK250 Blue Tec, it remains to be seen @ 16,000 miles, if I can get 1 to 2 mpg better to 37 to 39 MPG from 35 to 37 MPG @ 30 k miles. The MB GLK350 would have long been since broken in, between 1,000 and 5,000 miles Fuelly.com lists it @ 22.9 MPG.

While I have two full time four-wheel-drives, IF I had my druthers @ the time, I would rather have had the CUVs 2WD . I understand that that CA TRANS chain control points will require "all track" vehicles (conditions dictating) to chain up/cable up where four-wheel-drive vehicles are waved on. So if anybody knows differently, please correct me!

This is unrelated, and TMI, but if anybody has had chain or cable chain fender etc., damage, destruction can easily be thousands of dollars to repair. Cables are also less durable. So anecdotally, I have absolutely no rust issues at the 13 MY mark for a 2003 VW Jetts TDI. The 3 VW's whether diesel or gasser are made from galvanized steel. I assume the MB's are also, but I don't know for sure. I have also read, MB employs Nano technology paint, but I don't know what that means in terms of longevity.

Here is the Labor Day special, an Edmunds.com article about edmunds.com.

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/5-best-labor-day-car-deals-country-according-185202515.html

ruking1

Lower Gas Prices Yield Uneven Benefits WSJ
http://www.wsj.com/articles/lower-gas-prices-yield-uneven-benefits-1441390917

Diesel car engine braking using the 7/8 speed A/T's are not near what you would expect from say, a big rig. All four diesels are drive by wire.

On the down grades, iM/T & A/T's are used for (non braking) descent- space cushion and speed control in curves, thus avoiding trail braking. The no fuel draw feature is quite dramatic. So while I normally post 37 mpg on overall downgrade leg- SOS/DD 210 miles. (MB GLK 250 Blue Tec) I can easily post 48/49.8 mpg on steeper mountain downgrades (little to NO brake use) for 65 to 100 miles, where the 4/5 lane flats and the rest of the 145 to 110 miles, gets the better of me.

The upgrade leg posts 33 to 35, depending on whether or not I charge UPgrade. When the wife does a steady 70/75 mph upgrade, she'll post 37 mpg.

ruking1

This is probably way TMI. Because the 03 VW Jetta TDI is not driven too much anymore, (way down from 25,000 miles per yr the first 4 years) a Deltran Battery Tender Charger was purchased (@ Costco) to trickle charge, when not being driven.

As most already probably know, some to all modern cars have a myriad of known/unknown, normal/custom current draws, 24/7. Some cars have on board software to further customize current draw options. This does not take into account each operators' demands on each individual cars' system. When one puts this together with the fact that most OEM's alternator systems are not designed to charge the battery back to 100% charge, (not to mention they sell many more batteries like that ) it is probably no great surprise why a lot of batteries do not last past four years. In the old days, they would last much longer. It is also not a stretch to say that they are not built as reliability and durably as before. I am used to Toyota Land Cruiser batteries lasting 10 years or more.

The diesel nexus: current draw can be much greater that gassers during start up. It is commonly known in diesel circles, the diesel batteries are built with much greater draw capacity.

ruking1

Audi SQ5 T TDI, 6 cylinder, 516 #FT! 35.6 mpg!

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/06/audi-sq5-tdi-plus-official/

gagrice

ruking1 said:

Audi SQ5 T TDI, 6 cylinder, 516 #FT! 35.6 mpg!

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/06/audi-sq5-tdi-plus-official/

Of course not for US consumption. Will Audi be bringing the first plug-in hybrid TDI to US market?

Audi Q7 e-tron 3.0 TDI quattro

The Audi Q7 e-tron quattro will be launched in initial markets shortly after the rest of the new 2017 Q7 range goes on sale.

Its 258-hp 3.0-liter V-6 diesel engine and 94-kilowatt electric motor (which is integrated into the eight-speed automatic transmission) have a combined output of 373 hp, and produce 516 lb-ft of torque.

Audi says the all-electric range from its 17.3-kilowatt-hour lithium-ion battery pack is 35 miles (56 km), but that's on the gentle NEDC European test cycle. A comparable U.S. figure might be closer to 20 to 25 miles.

The company quotes a top speed of 140 miles per hour, acceleration from 0 to 62 mph in 6.0 seconds, and all-electric acceleration from 0 to 37 mph in 6.1 seconds.

It accelerates from a standstill to 100 km/h (62.1 mph) in six seconds, and yet consumes not even two liters of diesel per 100 kilometers (117.6 US mpg). The Audi Q7 e-tron quattro is sporty, comfortable and at the same time highly efficient. The world's first TDI plug in hybrid with quattro drive, it is also the first plug-in hybrid with a diesel engine from Audi.

The Q7 e-tron quattro is Audi's second model with a powerful plug-in hybrid drive system. The model combines the best of two worlds: Powered by the lithium-ion battery, the large SUV covers up to 56 kilometers (34.8 mi) on electric power alone - quietly, powerfully and with zero local emissions. Together with the diesel engine, the car can cover a total distance of 1,410 kilometers (876.1 mi).

ruking1

Based on the Audi AQ MPG figures of the diesel / diesel hybrid, I would not be an adopter of the diesel hybrid. If the diesel itself can lay down 35.6 mpg, I would expect the diesel hybrid to lay down 30% better or 46.3 MPG .

But you are right, I don't think the Audi SQ5 TTDI's are going to make the US markets.

The 2016 American market Audi SQ5 (compact) gasser puts out 346# ft of torque with a 3.0 L supercharged offering @ 17/24 mpg . The MB GLK 250 Blue Tech (compact) puts out 369 #ft of torque with a 2.1 L TT offering. It is easy to see the GASSER puts out 23# ft of torque LESS with a 43% LARGER displacement. It also does that posting way less mpg!! Edmunds.com puts it at 21 MPG. So using mine @ 35 mpg, that is 67% better, or 40% less.

gagrice

I will be watching for this one. With Android Google Maps integration in the Infotainment system.

The second generation Volkswagen Passat Alltrack (generation I debuted in 2012) is immediately recognisable as an individually designed estate and SUV crossover. It comes with anodised silver roof rails while the ground clearance has been increased by 27.5 mm. The body therefore has a total height of 1,506 mm. The new Passat Alltrack is 1,832 mm wide (with door mirrors 2,083 mm), with a length of 4,777 mm; the wheelbase extends over 2,789 mm.
2.0 TDI BMT 4MOTION with 176 kW / 240 PS

The most powerful four-cylinder direct-injection turbodiesel engine ever to be offered by Volkswagen - a 2.0 TDI with output of 176 kW / 240 PS (at 4,000 rpm) and extremely high maximum torque of 500 Nm (1,750 to 2,500 rpm) - is a completely new development. In order to realise this performance, a compact bi-turbo module was developed with a high-pressure and low-pressure turbocharger. Comfort at low revs is optimised by a new centrifugal pendulum absorber in the standard 7-speed dual-clutch gearbox. It enables further lowering of the gear shift points which reduces engine rev levels and contributes to the excellent fuel consumption figures of the TDI. With this high-tech engine the Passat Alltrack 2.0 TDI BMT 4MOTION reaches a top speed of 234 km/h; the Volkswagen speeds to the 100 km/h mark in just 6.4 seconds. The low average fuel consumption is impressive in view of the high power output of 5.5 l/100 km (144 g/km CO2).

ruking1

In a previous portion of my life, I probably would not have liked several things about it. Now that I look at what it all has, it is quite possibly, one of the better ones, that covers most to all the bases. @ 43 mpg & 368# ft of torque, it is hard not to like. Why no gassers that can match? Now if Caltrans chain controllers let that one pass without chaining, it would definitely be on my list.

Just had a (husband-and-wife) potential buyer of the 03 Jetta TDI ring the doorbell and ask if we wanted to sell (fishing-Zero advertising) Evidently they had a 2003 TDI before.

gagrice

My interest in the Passat Alltrack is slightly better ground clearance and good room for stuff traveling. With a combined 47.9 MPG UK, we should expect 39.8 MPG US. Not to mention a price tag about $10k less than a new Touareg TDI. That is for the top of the line sold in the UK with the most powerful TDI.

ruking1

Much as we like the 12 VW Touareg TDI , $ 10,000 cheaper is $10,000 cheaper.

I find threads like these a cross between inspirational and entertaining. The question/s that comes to my mind is/are what UNscheduled maintenance did you do during those times /miles?

The tread starter (a tech) actually began with an app 4 year old 394,007 miles VW Jetta Sport Wagon TDI. Yes, that's 98,500 miles per year! @ the pictures taking, it was posting 45.2 mpg.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=409845

stever

"Wrangler diesels built in Toledo are sold in other parts of the world, but not in the United States. Jeep brand head Mike Manley has said he wants the pickup and a diesel Wrangler for the U.S. But because FCA already sells every Wrangler the plant can turn out -- largely without incentives -- those derivatives have had to wait.

But that is about to change."

Jeep pickup ahead; diesel Wrangler possible (Automotive News)

ruking1

stever said:

"Wrangler diesels built in Toledo are sold in other parts of the world, but not in the United States. Jeep brand head Mike Manley has said he wants the pickup and a diesel Wrangler for the U.S. But because FCA already sells every Wrangler the plant can turn out -- largely without incentives -- those derivatives have had to wait.

But that is about to change."

Jeep pickup ahead; diesel Wrangler possible (Automotive News)

Yeah, I think it's a real & common misconception that diesels can/do not operate well @ low/lower speeds and low/lower rpm. 4WD'ers LOVE maximum torque at low/lower rpm!!

It is interesting that both (that I have read) Chrysler Corporation and Mercedes-Benz manufacture/ assemble diesels for cars in the continental U.S. for worldwide consumption.

Diesels have been vilfied for far too long. I say bring diesel manufacturing and diesel sales back home. Strike down the laws, enforcements and economies that keep the % of diesel cars artificially low. You can almost gauge how far it needs to come back, when Cummins, a premier American diesel manufacturer is hardly known by any car buyers.

gagrice

I like the looks of the GLK replacement for 2016.

Mercedes-Benz GLC (2016)

ruking1

My mistake, actually it's BMW that does certain model's X 3,4,5, and TBD 7, ( diesels) in America (Greer, SC) for US & world wide consumption. I remember reading on their website that the models made @ that plant are for world wide, ( not only for) & US consumption.

stever

gagrice said:

I like the looks of the GLK replacement for 2016.

When I first flashed on all that chrome, I thought you were posting a 50's Buick or something.

ruking1

I am then glad to have purchased one of the two last models ( 2014/2015) of this generation compact GLK CUV. This is one of the benefits of constant improvement.

Indeed even Edmunds.com, as well as some owners have complained of loud windshield noises @ higher cruising speeds? So a seemingly lower coefficient of friction & more angled windshield seems integrated into the new generations design, as well as whatever "constant" improvement issues. Style and design will inevitably always "progress." I, too like the new style. I have to confess that the old style has grown on me . Loud windshield noise does not seem to affect my particular 14 GLK 250 Blue Tech, as it is used to being run @ higher cruising speeds.

gagrice

I kind of wonder why MB has decided to drop the Bluetec moniker and go with a "d" like BMW? I also do not see any increase in HP or Torque for the 2016, yet they are called GLC 300d. The claim they are just slightly larger than the GLK. Worth looking at for sure.. No sign of it yet on the local MB lots.

The new GLE 300d is at our dealers. It would seem MB has had good luck with that wonderful 4 cylinder 2.1L diesel engine. It is the only diesel option in the GLE (M class) SUV. Looks like the ML 350 Bluetec was the last we will see of the V6 diesel. Unless they keep it for the GLS.

fintail

MB needs to bring back this badge:

ruking1

"d" suffix is probably as direct as it gets for "diesel". Here is one explanation, as I am sure there are many articles on the subject.

http://paultan.org/2014/11/12/mercedes-benz-announces-new-naming-convention/

On Fuelly.com, the MB GLK 250 Blue Tec (EPA 24/33) posts roughly 31 mpg. Hopefully as it morphs to its new designation, it can do that or better!

ruking1

http://www.dieselforum.org/news/u-s-diesel-car-registrations-increase-by-24-hybrids-up-33-total-car-market-registrations-increase-just-2-7-since-2010

Finally got a diesel passenger vehicle fleet PVF # , (circa 2012) of 6.6583 M.

NHTSA FARS 2012 PVF @ 265.647 M , will post app 2.5%.

That % is a far way off the 10% alternative fuel goal that the US government has set. With 2013 passenger vehicles @ 269.294 M, 10% = 26.93 M vehicles, it appears on the diesel side, it's the lip service and not actual vehicles & %'s hitting the road. Actually, a better way to look at it: the actual goal percentage of fuel using GAS vehicles ARE hitting the road @ 95 % + .

http://forcechange.com/983/billions-spent-by-federal-government-on-alternative-fuel-cars-little-to-show/

Slow news diesel day: RBob gas @$1.38 versus heating oil @$1.58.

SOS/DD halfway point: ULSD at $2.44, RUG $2.59, MG $2.72, PUG $2.83. The cable TV TV pundits think the price of gas is going down longer term. If US/CA diesel taxes are 63.78 cents, plus 9% SST, then governments are making a min of 49.4 %. Using the MB GLK 250 35 mpg = .0182 cents taxes min.

US/CA gas taxes are 60.75 cents Using the MB GLK 350 22 mpg = .0276 cents taxes min. 52% higher per mile driven like model : fuel.

The downstream oil/gas food chain is making about 14% PRE taxation.

It is easy to see that IF the price of gas goes down, and TAXES stay the same, or are legislated HIGHER, who makes more % wise in this deal ?

ruking1

What we pay for gas and diesel, interesting gas pump graphic.

http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/

stever

So why is marketing and distribution of diesel so much higher than gas?

ruking1

The website contains a gobbledygook explanation to your question.

But, I find it even more interesting that refining RUG/PUG is @ 25% versus ULSD @ 12%, RUG/PUG costing 208% MORE! This is not even to mention the fact that RUG/PUG @ 30 to 90 ppm sulfur is dirtier than ULSD @15 ppm sulfur, nominally delivered @ 5 to 10 ppm sulfur. These and other incongruities are truly "hidden" in plain sight!?

stever

Lousy graph, until your post it looked as though the refining cost was the same. Missed the fine print/numbers (the bar sizes are similar). Should have caught that the first time.

ruking1

LA Times says nationwide gasoline should hit $2.03 by Dec. Of course, the doubletalk is not for CA. This portends lower ULSD prices, albeit same caveat!

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gasoline-prices-december-20150909-story.html

stever

Unless it's a cold winter, then all your diesel bets are off.

Or gee, maybe a refinery will catch fire and we'll all pay more.

Skimmed three stories similar to this one, and didn't see any reason for the small increase in diesel pump prices. Maybe just demand with all the consumer shopping or harvest time.

Diesel Costs Up After 14 Weeks (gobytrucknews)

ruking1

The realities are in the numbers, as per the era.gov chart: 46% each diesel/gasoline for crude, 12%/25% diesel/gasoline % for refining. It really tells the important part of the story. Since the diesel/gasoline production ratios are pretty fixed, with some % "tweaking" possible, the % profit potential favors ULSD. So even now, the price of ULSD is high compared to RUG/PUG.

Halfway to SOS/DD, pricies are @ ULSD 2.44, RUG 2.59, MG 2.72, PUG 2.83. Indeed without the profit potential ULSD should be about $.13 cheaper or $ 2.31 minimum.

stever

I wonder if our refineries are shipping less diesel to Europe, now that it's fallen out of favor, at least with many of the governmental entities over there (and in India).

ruking1

Well, the latest figures should probably be buried in the EIA.gov website, somewhere.

Judging by the high ULSD prices relative to RUG/PUG, my swag, exports are UP!

TMI : US refiners can really save a LOT of money by refining diesel, i.e., LSD, 500 ppm, to what the world market consumption dictates, rather than higher refining cost ULSD @ zero to 15 ppm, nominally delivered @ zero to 10 ppm.

Further TMI: they can use less than premium crude @ substantial discount to make LSD.

Eyes glazed over TMI: The local refinery (chevron) applied for and was DENIED ( after 10 plus years of studies) upgrades to the refinery, in the BILLIONS of $$'s that limited USA crude oil from being refined there. This all but guarantees Middle East crude ! Of course in the very next sentence, they are whining to reduce our dependency on FOREIGN oil. We wonder why we get the politicians that we do ?

stever

Just skimmed "news" in a search but didn't find it before I lost interest.

ruking1

Really no real worries! Most people ( 95% + ) use RUG/MGG/PUG with up to 10% ethanol ! Less than 3% use ULSD. ( app 7 M/ 269.3 M = 2.6%) If one is a ULSD user, it is totally seamless and not a care; vice versa also.

stever

Until the wrong stuff gets into the wrong tank...

"Meijer said its fuel supplier inadvertently put the wrong fuel in the tanks, mixing up the diesel and unleaded fuels." (Detroit News)

ruking1

Yes, that's a good reason why you want to use a high-volume diesel place. A couple of high dollar fuel systems cleanings, you know $600-$1000 tends to make that vendor get that detail right.

A couple of TDI's on the 2015 year end bargain list.

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/10-best-end-of-summer-car-deals-of-2015-128673945747.html

stever

Doesn't seem to be a real consensus about whether it's worse to put diesel in a gasser or gas in a diesel, although most say gas in a diesel is worse. (Quora)

ruking1

You know, it's never occurred to me to ask, which accident is more common : gas into diesel, or diesel into gas?

stever

Over the pond, it's gas into diesel, because the diesel nozzles are bigger than the gas tank openings. It's easier to put a smaller gas nozzle into a diesel tank there.

That's not the case in the US - the big nozzles are more typically found at truck stops but not at regular gas stations.

You can't depend on those green handles either - sometimes they indicate E-10 gas or premium.

nyccarguy

This http://www.mypreownedmercedes.com/used/2014/mercedes/e250-bluetec/2014-mercedes-e250-bluetec-silver-mercedes-of-caldwell-for-sale-wddhf9hb9ea941546 2014 E250 BluTec 4Matic looks like a nice rig for a decent price. A former service loaner, less than 8K miles, and a very healthy discount off of what was at one time a $60K Mercedes.

ruking1

I was pleasantly surprised to find that the MB 2.1 L twin turbo Blue Tech engines, in both E250 and GLK 250 posts about 35 mpg. (Fuelly.com for E250)

On the 14 MB GLK 250, three drivers are posting 35 to 37 mpg, from grueling commute traffic to higher speed highway to mountain (7,380 ft) roads.. @ over 17k miles, it's drive train continues to wear well on us.

We like the compact CUV platform. So the question arises: why would we switched to a GLK 350 gasser that posts 22 mpg, maybe ? It puts out less torque @ higher RPM.

stever

The better switch would be to an EV.

Then weld the hood shut.

Assuming there is a hood.

jpp75

nyccarguy said:

This http://www.mypreownedmercedes.com/used/2014/mercedes/e250-bluetec/2014-mercedes-e250-bluetec-silver-mercedes-of-caldwell-for-sale-wddhf9hb9ea941546 2014 E250 BluTec 4Matic looks like a nice rig for a decent price. A former service loaner, less than 8K miles, and a very healthy discount off of what was at one time a $60K Mercedes.

That's a lot of car for the money....I'd be tempted if I was in the market.

nyccarguy

jpp5862 said:

nyccarguy said:

This http://www.mypreownedmercedes.com/used/2014/mercedes/e250-bluetec/2014-mercedes-e250-bluetec-silver-mercedes-of-caldwell-for-sale-wddhf9hb9ea941546 2014 E250 BluTec 4Matic looks like a nice rig for a decent price. A former service loaner, less than 8K miles, and a very healthy discount off of what was at one time a $60K Mercedes.

That's a lot of car for the money....I'd be tempted if I was in the market.

We are Chronic Car Buyers. When are we NOT in the market? Ha! After looking at those E250 Blue Tecs, I did a search on MBUSA's website for E350 Gassers. Very similar asking prices, The biggest difference? I think there are less than 20 BlueTecs CPO available in a 200 Mile Radius and over 300 E350 Gassers.