Yes, in the case of the Accord Hybrid (@42 mpg @ 2.86 rug) costing $1,000 over the VW Passat TDI ( @ 39.6 mpg@ 2.68 ULSD) it would take multiple 100,000 miles cycles ($43 per ) to B/E or recover the cost differences.
(aka $1000. @ 2.68 would buy 373 gal of ULSD. @ 39.6 mpg that buys 14,776 COMUTE miles. For us that would be almost a full years worth.)
Wow ! If it takes that long and that many miles to save back $1,000., how long and how many miles would it take to save back the average $3,000. premium that a diesel costs over a like gasser model?
ruking1
Please explain how you say multiple 100,000 miles cycles to recover the cost difference and the very next sentence you say $1000 buys 14,776 commute miles with diesel . Your two contradicting figures leaves my mind reeling in confusion
There is nothing contradictory. I already have explained things and in different ways. All the figures and the formulas you need to run your own verifications are in the posts. The figures missing are the best deals you can get for both the hybrid and the TDI. So what are they?
There is nothing contradictory. I already have explained things and in different ways. All the figures and the formulas you need to run your own verifications are in the posts. The figures missing are the best deals you can get for both the hybrid and the TDI. So what are they?
There is nothing contradictory. I already have explained things and in different ways. All the figures and the formulas you need to run your own verifications are in the posts. The figures missing are the best deals you can get for both the hybrid and the TDI. So what are they?
Since you seemed to prefer the hybrid, it would have been nice for its price to have been par to cheaper than the TDI. Instead the TDI is minus- $2,286/$951 CHEAPER ?
Monies aside, how do you rank order them? (for whatever reasons, important to you, if it is not already rank ordered)
Yes Hybrid accord was the best drive but the price is high. Passat TDI is good but a manual. Sonata was just OK
So I have to decide if I want to drive a Manual to save money or prefer a familiar Automatic Accord and pay more money.
I hope you run me some maths as I want to save money, but will have to retrain to drive a Manual which no one else will touch in my family . Passat TDI auto is 29,000
Diesel or not, the easiest thing to do is to tell the Honda dealer you are seriously considering the Paasat TDI @ best price of $22,499 (if indeed that is). Since that is a manual, if push comes to shove, see if 23,999 will work for the hybrid. (DSG for Passat TDI is MSRP@ $1,100)
Diesel or not, the easiest thing to do is to tell the Honda dealer you are seriously considering the Paasat TDI @ best price of $22,499 (if indeed that is). Since that is a manual, if push comes to shove, see if 23,999 will work for the hybrid. (DSG for Passat TDI is MSRP@ $1,100)
Good advise. Will see what the Honda dealer says .
Diesel or not, the easiest thing to do is to tell the Honda dealer you are seriously considering the Paasat TDI @ best price of $22,499 (if indeed that is). Since that is a manual, if push comes to shove, see if 23,999 will work for the hybrid.
Honda dealer won't budge on the price. I will try to get the VW dealer to offer the TDI SE DSG for $23.5 or $24k
They have a tricked out TDI SEL Limited version for $29k which is just too much fluff for a daily commute.
Interesting. The difference between base MSRP for the manual is $2k less than the auto. So its not just as simple as adding $1100 for the transmission. Anyway, Truecar in my zip code has the manual at $22,530 and the DSG at $24,474.
A Golf TDI SE auto is $25,102.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Diesel or not, the easiest thing to do is to tell the Honda dealer you are seriously considering the Paasat TDI @ best price of $22,499 (if indeed that is). Since that is a manual, if push comes to shove, see if 23,999 will work for the hybrid.
Honda dealer won't budge on the price. I will try to get the VW dealer to offer the TDI SE DSG for $23.5 or $24k
They have a tricked out TDI SEL Limited version for $29k which is just too much fluff for a daily commute.
Well, that's really my take for the (15 Accord ) hybrids : too much fluff AND $$'s for daily commute. It might be way different thing if those add-ons are have to have . Even if I wanted the decked out do dahs, which I don't, I would NOT be willing to pay for it. Needless to say, the $$$'s add-ons are not germane to either gas hybrid or diesel powertrains.
So assuming you halfway like the diesel, unless you can get the hybrid for the same price or under, the likelihood of B/E against the diesel is very low. Essentially that was true for a 2003/4 Toyota Prius vs 2003 Jetta TDI, Civic hybrid, Corolla, etc.
Essentially we (not we, as I told him what to look for) went through a similar to same scenario with my friends' 13 Mercedes-Benz GL 350 BlueTec. He was just fine with it being fully decked out. So what happened was 1. He decided new prices were too"new" and hit the used market 2. that the prices (negotiated) was actually at par with any number of fully decked out gas models (negotiated) prices with WAY more miles & with app 9,000 miles on the TDI clock or 4,500 miles per year. It (the diesel) was almost a total no brainer.
(whether I didn't want one decked out) (That is assuming he wanted or was ok with a diesel.)
Since he wanted a fully decked out diesel, he was more than a happy camper.
So if this is unclear, essentially (on the used market) he got the diesel at gas prices.
Pardon the aside but there's quite a few early adopters out in California seeking info about Toyota's hydrogen fuel cell car.
When you think about it, I bet California leads the way in passenger diesel car sales too, especially VWs. It's still a bit of uncharted territory in most of the country, efforts by Chevy and the diesel Cruze notwithstanding.
Yeah it is kind of funny in terms of diesel, in that diesel is cheaper in most other states than in California.(so is RUG/PUG) So in the SOS/DD destination, diesel is 3.01. (CA) If I crossed the border (NV, Harry Reid's state), diesel is $2.49 or 17.3 % cheaper.
BUT then, if I buy it @ a major truck route crossroads city (in CA, halfway), it's still $2.45. Plus, if I catch a grocery discount, it can be .20 to .50 cents cheaper!! ? So go figure ??
Right, $58,000 for a Corolla sized vehicle, aka hydrogen. They still won't even tell you how big the tank is or has to be to go 300 miles, nor price of fuel..
So @ 2.45 per gal, my 50 mpg TDI is .049 cents pmd:f And we still pay too much fuel tax! @ .01275.= 26% pmd.
Would one care to figure what an FORD F150 pays @ 2.83, posting 16.6 miles per gallon ? (See if you get 349% more pmd, than my 03 Jetta diesel)
Diesel or not, the easiest thing to do is to tell the Honda dealer you are seriously considering the Paasat TDI @ best price of $22,499 (if indeed that is). Since that is a manual, if push comes to shove, see if 23,999 will work for the hybrid.
Honda dealer won't budge on the price. I will try to get the VW dealer to offer the TDI SE DSG for $23.5 or $24k
They have a tricked out TDI SEL Limited version for $29k which is just too much fluff for a daily commute.
Well, that's really my take for the (15 Accord ) hybrids : too much fluff AND $$'s for daily commute. It might be way different thing if those add-ons are have to have . Even if I wanted the decked out do dahs, which I don't, I would NOT be willing to pay for it. Needless to say, the $$$'s add-ons are not germane to either gas hybrid or diesel powertrains.
So assuming you halfway like the diesel, unless you can get the hybrid for the same price or under, the likelihood of B/E against the diesel is very low. Essentially that was true for a 2003/4 Toyota Prius vs 2003 Jetta TDI, Civic hybrid, Corolla, etc.
Essentially we (not we, as I told him what to look for) went through a similar to same scenario with my friends' 13 Mercedes-Benz GL 350 BlueTec. He was just fine with it being fully decked out. So what happened was 1. He decided new prices were too"new" and hit the used market 2. that the prices (negotiated) was actually at par with any number of fully decked out gas models (negotiated) prices with WAY more miles & with app 9,000 miles on the TDI clock or 4,500 miles per year. It (the diesel) was almost a total no brainer.
(whether I didn't want one decked out) (That is assuming he wanted or was ok with a diesel.)
Since he wanted a fully decked out diesel, he was more than a happy camper.
So if this is unclear, essentially (on the used market) he got the diesel at gas prices.
I am now more inclined towards diesal because on further researching, I have found that Hydrids depreciate like a falling rock and the battery replacement is very expensive and improperly stored car over a longer period will drain the batteries and fail to charge like any laptop batteries and cellphone batteries which lose their capacity and charging characteristics. It being not a plug-in hybrid, to keep the batteries charged will require constant running of the car even if it is just a fruitless car trips. Repair and maintenance after the warranty period will also be expensive.I have never heard of a good resale market for all the Priuses which have been around for a long time. Who wants old dodgy used Lithuim batteries ?
I'm glad you found some more of these things out. I think that you probably would not have believed me if I had said it from the get-go. Aka, just more pieces of BS that I am spouting. But then again , EVERYTHING I have said is verifiable.
On the other hand, you need to see if the Honda dealership or Honda corporate will replace any of those ( gas hybrid) things to go bad, in or out of warranty, just like VW did with my ( out of warranty) !HPFP (high-pressure fuel pump) issue. If they will or if they do that, that puts it in the no harm no foul category, just like how I feel toward the high-pressure fuel pump issue. While rare to remote, it surely happened, and they stepped up.
Doesn't seem like Prii are any more expensive to maintain than any other car. Both the '15 Golf TDI and '15 Prius run about $4,000 in maintenance in the first five years per our True Cost to Own tool. Depreciation is more on the Prius.
And it's not good for any car to sit. Battery replacement costs are often overstated by the naysayers on the net and it's easy to just replace a bad cell instead of the whole pack if one of them goes bad. If that really was a big issue, the cabbies would be dumping the hybrids left and right, but they don't.
Spotted gas and diesel at lunch today for $2.45 a gallon, either one. Filled up my 5 gallon propane tank and that was $3.27 a gallon.
With fuel at $2.45, there's not much motivation for the average person to shop a hybrid or a diesel just to save on fuel costs.
When you think about it, I bet California leads the way in passenger diesel car sales too, especially VWs. It's still a bit of uncharted territory in most of the country, efforts by Chevy and the diesel Cruze notwithstanding.
While there are quite a few TDI cars here in California diesel isn't exact the most popular. First, it's been hard for manufacturers to certify cars to meet stricter emission requirements so there's been a few model years here and there where VW hasn't offered their TDI cars in the state.
The second issue is fuel prices. While diesel can be found at most bigger stations and is currently $0.80 to $1 less per gallon, historically it seems to have averaged around the same price as premium unleaded. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. So there really hasn't been a long-term trend of lower cost diesel which is a primary factor for many people considering a diesel.
That would be true IF the MB GLK 350/250 both got 35 MPG or 22 mpg. But it's not the case. The 350 gets 22 mpg, 250 BlueTec gets 35 mpg. The math clearly does not support your assertions, however popular and pervasive that opinion is.
It's almost like asking is 11 cents more or less than 7 cents? No, no, no, they are the same!
Sidebar: @ 2.45 ULSD, RUG= $2.83, PUG=$ 3.04 so...more like 12.9 k to $ 13.8k vs $7 k. So $6.8k can buy 2,776 gals of 2.45 ULSD. @ 35 mpg that is 97,143 miles MORE!
Well , OK we could use BIG numbers. Let's say 100,000 miles, same question : is $11,000 more or less than $7,000 ?
Trick question you say! Of course, the same !
Who needs fiction, I can't even make this stuff up.
I have read any number of articles saying that the compact/small car market is very very very quiet. The 60 large GASSER TRUCK ( 15 Ford F150 ) market is hot hot hot !
So if they're not buying gas AVEO's, why woul the oem now want to enter with a diesel AVEO?
Be that as it may, I still bemoan my sub 20 K 2003 & 2009 VW Jetta TDI's.
One small tidbit to note which should be a long-term maintenance improvement is what sounds to be a move from using a timing belt to a timing chain in the new engine architecture.
Good point about the Cruze and how it could have a big influence on the adoption rate. A good friend of ours has a '13 gasser one, and it's a nice ride for a subcompact.
@gagrice we need to get Rocky to pop-in with a review of his.
Six points : 1. I was under the impressionthey were going to stop TDI production in 2015 MY . 2. I am glad they will resume with the 2017 TDI production. 3.I was glad to see that they posted the 3% of the total year's production as TDI's. 4. Hopefully, for model year 2017, the percentage of TDI's gets higher than 3% take rate for 2015. 5. Hope they can pull off an MB stunt and sell @ par or less than GASSERS 6.I doubt it could hit 25%, like the VW Jetta TDI's. But one has to wish them the best.
Six points : 1. I was under the impressionthey were going to stop TDI production in 2015 MY . 2. I am glad they will resume with the 2017 TDI production. 3.I was glad to see that they posted the 3% of the total year's production as TDI's. 4. Hopefully, for model year 2017, the percentage of TDI's gets higher than 3% take rate for 2015. 5. Hope they can pull off an MB stunt and sell @ par or less than GASSERS 6.I doubt it could hit 25%, like the VW Jetta TDI's. But one has to wish them the best.
I don't think it is a stretch of the imagination to say that the 3% is likely the same self-fulfilling prophecy, so to speak, as the low MT take rates generally observed. If you limit the options people have to adopt a certain feature, the take rate will naturally be lower. In models where MTs are relegated to base model only, take rate is going to be much lower than if it were available in the full population (observe models with it widely available do have higher take rates). Same goes for the diesel: On the Cruze, it is the halo model! It literally costs (entry level) $10,000 (60%) MORE than the entry level for the gasoline engine, or $8,500 (>40%) more than the entry gas engine w/ automatic (since the diesel doesn't have an MT option).
The Cruze is a major competitor in the sub $20K price class.... it's a footnote in the mid-to-upper $20K class. If buyers have more trim (and price) options, as well as the option of a MT, diesel sales would easily be double, triple, or more (if fully available within the trims and a similar price spread). It only carries a $1,500 premium over the gas LTZ, with non-engine features very similar between the two. I really don't think this is a stretch at all.
So, no, probably not 25%, but a darn sight closer to it than 3%!
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
On the Cruze, it is the halo model! It literally costs (entry level) $10,000 (60%) MORE than the entry level for the gasoline engine, or $8,500 (>40%) more than the entry gas engine w/ automatic (since the diesel doesn't have an MT option.
Ouch, I didn't realize it was that out of whack for the Cruze. Never mind....
3.I was glad to see that they posted the 3% of the total year's production as TDI's. 4. Hopefully, for model year 2017, the percentage of TDI's gets higher than 3% take rate for 2015.
Most dealers I've been too would happily sell more of the cars but when they've trickled in over the last couple years they don't linger long on the lot and haven't been replaced fresh inventory quick enough. It wouldn't surprise me if the biggest factor was how many engines (which are unique to the current North American Cruze Turbo Diesel) were allocated from total production at their plant in Germany.
If the Colorado/Canyon diesel sales take off it should only help with perception and marketing of the 2017 Cruze diesel and it sounds like it has been engineered from the start this time for the North American market.
We have been listening for a long time to people vilifying VW's diesel strategy in the American market. It would seem like Chevrolet is more clueless than VW, ever was, given the results.
3% of app 250,000 is app 7,500 units. Xwesx 's response would not seem to have upped the %'s , given the articles.
For my two cents, this is really sad because the Chevrolet Cruz was built on an old Cadillac platform, which is just wonderful for Chevrolet Cruse and its' diesel in particular.
Not that Chevrolet would listen, but if they did 2 TDI's 1.6 L/2.1 to 2.5 L ( different torques for FE vs power and still great FE ) would be compelling on that platform.
Speaking about Caddies.... Like Caddies can compete in European markets that is over 50% TDI and over 80% MT without either.
The other side of that is Cadillac/GM REALLY needs to get TDI's superbly right! Why? Because decades earlier, they were the figurative and literal definitions of how bad diesels were in American markets.
But funny things happen when (shoe on other foot principle) the UNIONS have controlling board room seats, large stock ownership, the ability to make American taxpayers bail them out?
Other lies we are told? Is chicken little an enviro conservative? Or do you really want another ice age like 10.000 to 15,000 years ago? Yes and how many environmental wacko's flock to the Alaskian or Siberian climates?
3% of app 250,000 is app 7,500 units. Xwesx 's response would not seem to have upped the %'s , given the articles.
Right; if the major limiting factor was availability, then all that would have done would be to spread the 7,500 units across the trims (e.g., overall lower profit margins for GM). I'm curious, though, if they had their heads in a place where the sun shines and met demand on the diesel Cruze, how much of a change would that really have made to the overall take rate? Not as much as it would if they offered that engine choice to all their Cruze customers.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
It would be ironic if GM figured out the trick with the diesel Cruze and sold a ton of them. That would be a complete 360 after killing the nascent diesel passenger car market back in the 80s.
Re union board members @ruking, are you talking about GM and the UAW or VW?
I don't get all the angst about owning a Chinese car either. Plenty of Volvos are running around, not to mention WWII vets driving Japanese or German cars.
I got family and some of their friends up @ the house in SOS/DD. Weather is absolutely gorgeous! Can't wait to see if any got the 20/50 cent grocery discount on fuel. ULSD is @$2.45 in Sacramento CA. Sans the 63.78 cent fuel taxes, (not including hidden state,local sales taxes) that is 1.81 per gal.or less. (35.2% fed,state,local taxes) While the tax % burden is unconscionable, $1.81 or less per gal ain't bad?
I'm also not sure why some folks say cheaper diesel is a poor motivator? @ $3.01 PUG and 22 miles a gallon vs 35 mpg ( MB GLK 350/250 BlueTec ) that most folks would rather pay 13.7 vs 7 cents per mile or 95% more? To each their own ! I guess in some ways it's good that the majority of the oems models don't have diesel counterparts .
To Carboy21, The $495.00 cheaper MSRP on MB GLK 250 diesel model is a perfect illustration that on fuel alone, it will not break even against the GAS GLK 350 model. Indeed over 100,000 miles, the gas model will cost $7,195 MORE! That savings alone will buy 102,786 miles!
Another good reason to dump the Nissan PU and the wife's LS400 is the smog check scam. My wife's Lexus has to be smog checked this year. I called the two places closest to me and both say their early model smog tester is not working for years 1976-99. They are waiting on the state technician to come out and repair. hmmmm, been over a week since I called. Is the state trying to force people to get rid of older vehicles????
Another diesel may be in my garage soon.
I know the CA DMV doesn't really care all that much when you smog your vehicle for registration renewal, as long as you pay your dues on time you are OK with the DMV. All they care about is the money in the end.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The fact that the Passat TDI is competitive against both the Honda Accord gas & gas hybrid speaks volumes. Noteworthy is that the Honda Accord has to go to a 3.5 L V-6 (75% larger) to beat the 4 cylinder 2.0L Passat TDI's 236 pound feet of torque by 16 # ft. Of course, there is a substantial mpg penalty. ( fuelly.com 39.6 vs 28 mpg or 11.6 mpg LESS!)
The other way to look @ it is a 3.5 L V6 diesel can put out app 465# ft to 525 # ft and get app 28 to 30 mpg.
The fact that the Passat TDI is competitive against both the Honda Accord gas & gas hybrid speaks volumes.
Some VW dealers are aggressively pricing the TDIs . But not all of them. Party will last till the gas prices are low. But I don't see gas pricing rising unless we have a war with Iran in the Persian Gulf. Then all bets are off. But now is the best time to buy TDI or gas Hybrids while the going is good. We are a three car family. So having atleast one TDI or a Hybrid in the Garage is a good hedge against a oil shock )
So having at least one TDI or a Hybrid in the Garage is a good hedge against a oil shock )
I like that. Have to say that I had a weird dream last night - gas was $1.17 a gallon and I couldn't get my wife to pull the van up to the pump. More of a nightmare.
The fact that the Passat TDI is competitive against both the Honda Accord gas & gas hybrid speaks volumes. Noteworthy is that the Honda Accord has to go to a 3.5 L V-6 (75% larger) to beat the 4 cylinder 2.0L Passat TDI's 236 pound feet of torque by 16 # ft. Of course, there is a substantial mpg penalty. ( fuelly.com 39.6 vs 28 mpg or 11.6 mpg LESS!)
The other way to look @ it is a 3.5 L V6 diesel can put out app 465# ft to 525 # ft and get app 28 to 30 mpg.
On the other hand, the Audi Q5 diesel is about $8500. more expensive than the lowest priced Q5 gasser. Not sure if they tacked on more equipment on the diesel, but that price difference is a killer. I read somewhere that the average price difference between gas and diesel cars is $3,000.
yes, ruking, my new chevy does have a Tremec 6xxx. i think it's the same 6060 used in most muscle cars, viper, etc.
as for mpg, seems like the M6 SS gets exact same mpg as M6 2005 GTO did over its first 125k miles. SS is heavier. But handles/feels way lighter. On E10 93 octane so far: 21 overall, mixed commute, mostly highway 17 in city driving 25 mpg on pure highway driving, at least during breakin <68 mph. rumor is that the 016 M6 SS may get gas guzzler tax even though 015 did not, which would be quite weird. GTO got 25 mpg back from florida last time, running E0 fuel, real/rural gasoline without any ethanol.
How awesome would it be if there is an insanely overpowered diesel vehicle some day that is subject to the gas-guzzler tax! (Trucks are exempt, of course.)
as for cost per mile, i think your numbers are way off, king, because you are only including fuel cost. i consider fuel as part of the total cost per mile. for cost-per-mile, both of us are surely paying somewhere in the 50 cents or $1 per mile range, with most of the cost being depreciation/insurance/tax/tires/maintenance, and with any marginal difference in fuel cost per mile being just a few percent of the total. also the ideas of using only two sets of tires in 150,000 miles is scary to me - such old/dry/hard/high-mpg tires can have awful traction/braking/handling characteristics. for safety reasons please consider to swap your tires more often, maybe for some much stickier tires, to reduce emergency-braking distances. better traction from your tires can help you to prevent a crash. mpg can't help with that! as for tire rotation, the first one is the most important at 5000 or 7500. after that, it's fine to double the rotation interval to 10k or 15k.
locally it seems like at an increasing rate new jettas are being sold as the gas/TSI model. i don't see as many TDIs as I used to! discounts on Passat TDI stickshift make it very attractive. If there were a wagon version with stickshift I probably couldn't have avoided buying one. VW TDIs are fun to drive, but not in the same fun league as the SS. ps - the SS magna ride is VERY NICE. do any diesel cars offer magna-ride? Porsche Cayenne diesel offers it as "PASM"...
as for the coal-rolling guys, i gotta admit i love them and usually line up my GTO behind their tailpipe, or next to their dual-stacks, inviting them to roll the coal. even uninvited, they seem to like to roll coal on high-performance-gassers just as much as on priuses, with the difference being that us high-performance-gasser guys really enjoy it.
i used to greatly enjoy rolling coal on tailgators in 2003 jetta diesel wagon, that thing was awesome and 100% stealth.
So why would you want to deal with a dealer that is not motivated?
On a ME war with Iran, the operative reality does not bear that out. If you have not been following the current prices of oil, it has been WAY low. Indeed this is after many wars, notably with IRAQ. Not to mention the current chaos, i.e. ISIS and terrorists hiding under every rock.
Indeed Iran (among others) is way stronger now, either by our direct/indirect intention/s or defacto intentions. So as you can see , we have labored very hard to make sure Iran is strong, aka scary. Indeed if the administration has its way, they will release a minimum of $ 141B US for increased Iranian firepower, aka not in Irainian denominations.
Oil prices would be lower still IF it were not for this administrations' WAR on coal AND domestic oil frackers!! This is not to mention emphasis on higher cost and totally inefficient and unstable solar and wind electricity. WAR with IRAN is like a cable TV wrestling drama.
The fact that the Passat TDI is competitive against both the Honda Accord gas & gas hybrid speaks volumes. Noteworthy is that the Honda Accord has to go to a 3.5 L V-6 (75% larger) to beat the 4 cylinder 2.0L Passat TDI's 236 pound feet of torque by 16 # ft. Of course, there is a substantial mpg penalty. ( fuelly.com 39.6 vs 28 mpg or 11.6 mpg LESS!)
The other way to look @ it is a 3.5 L V6 diesel can put out app 465# ft to 525 # ft and get app 28 to 30 mpg.
On the other hand, the Audi Q5 diesel is about $8500. more expensive than the lowest priced Q5 gasser. Not sure if they tacked on more equipment on the diesel, but that price difference is a killer. I read somewhere that the average price difference between gas and diesel cars is $3,000.
i'm not sure how you could miss this, but in the Honda Accord line there's roughly $10,800 difference between the lowest and highest priced Honda Accord. The Honda Accord hybrid differences are roughly $ 5,700.
So I think it's more than obvious that most folks would rather buy the do dah's for 10,800 to 5,700 rather than 3,000 for a diesel.
yes, ruking, my new chevy does have a Tremec 6xxx. i think it's the same 6060 used in most muscle cars, viper, etc.
as for mpg, seems like the M6 SS gets exact same mpg as M6 2005 GTO did over its first 125k miles. SS is heavier. But handles/feels way lighter. On E10 93 octane so far: 21 overall, mixed commute, mostly highway 17 in city driving 25 mpg on pure highway driving, at least during breakin
No ! I think you just trying to introduce doubt where I was very clear (PMD:FUEL)! Yet in you trying to introduce doubt, you are clearly unclear! In fact you are loathed to post the calculation cpmd:f, let alone deal with my verifiable ( by YOU or anybody) calculation.
You also do not post the calculations that YOU are calling for.
So for example, with my 22 mpg PUG versus 35 mpg over 100,000 miles example, I'm glad that you see the $6,800 in fuel savings ( $ 13,800 versus $7000 ) as small potatoes .
Me? I'd rather use it @ $ 2.45 ULSD to buy 97,143 MORE miles for trips or commuting. @ 15,000 miles per commuting year that is 6.47 years.
The fact that the Passat TDI is competitive against both the Honda Accord gas & gas hybrid speaks volumes. Noteworthy is that the Honda Accord has to go to a 3.5 L V-6 (75% larger) to beat the 4 cylinder 2.0L Passat TDI's 236 pound feet of torque by 16 # ft. Of course, there is a substantial mpg penalty. ( fuelly.com 39.6 vs 28 mpg or 11.6 mpg LESS!)
The other way to look @ it is a 3.5 L V6 diesel can put out app 465# ft to 525 # ft and get app 28 to 30 mpg.
On the other hand, the Audi Q5 diesel is about $8500. more expensive than the lowest priced Q5 gasser. Not sure if they tacked on more equipment on the diesel, but that price difference is a killer. I read somewhere that the average price difference between gas and diesel cars is $3,000.
i'm not sure how you could miss this, but in the Honda Accord line there's roughly $10,800 difference between the lowest and highest priced Honda Accord. The Honda Accord hybrid differences are roughly $ 5,700.
So I think it's more than obvious that most folks would rather buy the do dah's for 10,800 to 5,700 rather than 3,000 for a diesel.
People who buy Audi and Mercedes Benz and BMW diesel cars or SUV, are not doing it for saving money on MPG. They will add all the options on top of the diesel and like Audi will have the diesel SUV fully tricked out to its max options. The only advantage they want of a diesel luxury vehicles over its similar gasser models is the long interval between filling the tank or in another words longer range per tank of fuel.
Whether that's the intention or not, the actual fact is the fuel & $'s ARE saved. I am are you know that 5,700 to 10,800 in Hondas buys even more miles in fuel.
So why would you want to deal with a dealer that is not motivated?
On a ME war with Iran, the operative reality does not bear that out. If you have not been following the current prices of oil, it has been WAY low. Indeed this is after many wars, notably with IRAQ. Not to mention the current chaos, i.e. ISIS and terrorists hiding under every rock.
Indeed Iran (among others) is way stronger now, either by our direct/indirect intention/s or defacto intentions. So as you can see , we have labored very hard to make sure Iran is strong, aka scary. Indeed if the administration has its way, they will release a minimum of $ 141B US for increased Iranian firepower, aka not in Irainian denominations.
Oil prices would be lower still IF it were not for this administrations' WAR on coal AND domestic oil frackers!! This is not to mention emphasis on higher cost and totally inefficient and unstable solar and wind electricity. WAR with IRAN is like a cable TV wrestling drama.
If you leave it to the Republican hawks like Senators McCain and Lindsey Graham and the Israelis, the war with Iran will be inevitable. Obama is appeasing Iran with this Nuclear Deal, he recently struck with Iran. USA needs Iran to counterbalance ISIS takeover of Iraq. Choice is between a rock and a hard place. Does USA want a ISIS controlled Iraq or a Iran controlled Iraq ?? If the later choice is the lesser evil then Iran needs to appeased with the current Nuclear deal. Israel opposes this deal and would rather attack Iran. THAT would lead the whole middle-east to boil over and oil to reach $200 a barrel. Factor in the Russians under the Putin leadership. Russian economy depends on high oil prices. It will instigate anything in the middle-east which will push oil prices higher., including support Iran if attacked by Israel. Just my 2 -cents worth
"A big slate of planned refinery outages this fall could affect diesel fuel, which has been selling for less than gasoline, he said. Diesel could rise 15 cents to 30 cents per gallon as farmers start using large quantities for harvesting equipment, he said."
Those refineries when they are up and running produce more % RUG/PUG than ULSD. So when they are down, they will not produce the same ratios. This has been the case in SoCA due to the BP refinery gig. (ULSD being lower)
The same administration is trying to kill farming also. You know FARMING causes global warming etc., etc.. Another truth is they hate US working people. Keep those uppity folks in line.
SO BILLIONS $$$ in CA produce have already been lost due to lack of LABOR availability, and that is with a porous border. ( diesel @ low in CA ) This is fubar because agricultural counties in CA have upwards of 25% aggie unemployment .
So to harvest less crops, requires less diesel. When you add to this the exporting of RUG/PUG due to LOOPHOLES., ( coming off high demand travel season) prices should remain in similar balance. ( RUG/PUG@ similar rise, .15 to .30 rise)
Another way to look at it : why would you want to make a little more money on a smaller percentage (diesel) when you can make the same amount of money on the larger percentage also? Ah.... Because they can! ? It is also too funny if folks protest, they will do the liberal thing and say we will conduct an investigation, so that stuff like this never happens again . Lol, FF ...you can almost set you watch by the planned unplanned and planned outages!
The counterpoint of course, they actually are losing money when when no fuel is produced, no matter the reason, I mean season.
Comments
2014 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel: Adding DEF, Breaking Down the Cost
Please explain how you say multiple 100,000 miles cycles to recover the cost difference and the very next sentence you say $1000 buys 14,776 commute miles with diesel .
Your two contradicting figures leaves my mind reeling in confusion
Accord Hybrid Base ( CVT ) = 24,785
Hyundai Sonata Hybrid Limited (Automatic ) = 23, 450
Monies aside, how do you rank order them? (for whatever reasons, important to you, if it is not already rank ordered)
So I have to decide if I want to drive a Manual to save money or prefer a familiar Automatic Accord and pay more money.
I hope you run me some maths as I want to save money, but will have to retrain to drive a Manual which no one else will touch in my family . Passat TDI auto is 29,000
Advantage diesel?
http://www.boston.com/cars/news-and-reviews/2015/07/21/study-diesel-vehicles-offer-better-savings-the-long-run/AFEw2HdgetoCYDAlrwezbK/story.html
They have a tricked out TDI SEL Limited version for $29k which is just too much fluff for a daily commute.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
A Golf TDI SE auto is $25,102.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
So assuming you halfway like the diesel, unless you can get the hybrid for the same price or under, the likelihood of B/E against the diesel is very low. Essentially that was true for a 2003/4 Toyota Prius vs 2003 Jetta TDI, Civic hybrid, Corolla, etc.
Essentially we (not we, as I told him what to look for) went through a similar to same scenario with my friends' 13 Mercedes-Benz GL 350 BlueTec. He was just fine with it being fully decked out. So what happened was 1. He decided new prices were too"new" and hit the used market 2. that the prices (negotiated) was actually at par with any number of fully decked out gas models (negotiated) prices with WAY more miles & with app 9,000 miles on the TDI clock or 4,500 miles per year. It (the diesel) was almost a total no brainer.
(whether I didn't want one decked out) (That is assuming he wanted or was ok with a diesel.)
Since he wanted a fully decked out diesel, he was more than a happy camper.
So if this is unclear, essentially (on the used market) he got the diesel at gas prices.
When you think about it, I bet California leads the way in passenger diesel car sales too, especially VWs. It's still a bit of uncharted territory in most of the country, efforts by Chevy and the diesel Cruze notwithstanding.
BUT then, if I buy it @ a major truck route crossroads city (in CA, halfway), it's still $2.45. Plus, if I catch a grocery discount, it can be .20 to .50 cents cheaper!! ? So go figure ??
Right, $58,000 for a Corolla sized vehicle, aka hydrogen. They still won't even tell you how big the tank is or has to be to go 300 miles, nor price of fuel..
So @ 2.45 per gal, my 50 mpg TDI is .049 cents pmd:f And we still pay too much fuel tax! @ .01275.= 26% pmd.
Would one care to figure what an FORD F150 pays @ 2.83, posting 16.6 miles per gallon ? (See if you get 349% more pmd, than my 03 Jetta diesel)
Find out what YOU pay
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States
On the other hand, you need to see if the Honda dealership or Honda corporate will replace any of those ( gas hybrid) things to go bad, in or out of warranty, just like VW did with my ( out of warranty) !HPFP (high-pressure fuel pump) issue. If they will or if they do that, that puts it in the no harm no foul category, just like how I feel toward the high-pressure fuel pump issue. While rare to remote, it surely happened, and they stepped up.
A comin monster? # 440 # ft.
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/2016-audi-q7-first-drive-what-it-is-2016-audi-127011739907.html
And it's not good for any car to sit. Battery replacement costs are often overstated by the naysayers on the net and it's easy to just replace a bad cell instead of the whole pack if one of them goes bad. If that really was a big issue, the cabbies would be dumping the hybrids left and right, but they don't.
Spotted gas and diesel at lunch today for $2.45 a gallon, either one. Filled up my 5 gallon propane tank and that was $3.27 a gallon.
With fuel at $2.45, there's not much motivation for the average person to shop a hybrid or a diesel just to save on fuel costs.
The second issue is fuel prices. While diesel can be found at most bigger stations and is currently $0.80 to $1 less per gallon, historically it seems to have averaged around the same price as premium unleaded. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. So there really hasn't been a long-term trend of lower cost diesel which is a primary factor for many people considering a diesel.
I just did a quick search and I'm not sure on the accuracy of their data, but it does appear that while many diesel powered vehicles are sold in California, as a percentage of total vehicles there are many other states leading the way, so to speak.
http://www.dieselforum.org/files/dmfile/DieselTechnologyForum-2014LightDutyTopTenLists.pdf
It's almost like asking is 11 cents more or less than 7 cents? No, no, no, they are the same!
Sidebar: @ 2.45 ULSD, RUG= $2.83, PUG=$ 3.04 so...more like 12.9 k to $ 13.8k vs $7 k.
So $6.8k can buy 2,776 gals of 2.45 ULSD. @ 35 mpg that is 97,143 miles MORE!
Well , OK we could use BIG numbers. Let's say 100,000 miles, same question : is $11,000 more or less than $7,000 ?
Trick question you say! Of course, the same !
Who needs fiction, I can't even make this stuff up.
I have read any number of articles saying that the compact/small car market is very very very quiet. The 60 large GASSER TRUCK ( 15 Ford F150 ) market is hot hot hot !
So if they're not buying gas AVEO's, why woul the oem now want to enter with a diesel AVEO?
Be that as it may, I still bemoan my sub 20 K 2003 & 2009 VW Jetta TDI's.
What would really help diesel adoption would be a diesel Aveo for under $20k.
http://wardsauto.com/vehicles-technology/gm-eyed-us-inception-whisper-diesel
One small tidbit to note which should be a long-term maintenance improvement is what sounds to be a move from using a timing belt to a timing chain in the new engine architecture.
@gagrice we need to get Rocky to pop-in with a review of his.
The Cruze is a major competitor in the sub $20K price class.... it's a footnote in the mid-to-upper $20K class. If buyers have more trim (and price) options, as well as the option of a MT, diesel sales would easily be double, triple, or more (if fully available within the trims and a similar price spread). It only carries a $1,500 premium over the gas LTZ, with non-engine features very similar between the two. I really don't think this is a stretch at all.
So, no, probably not 25%, but a darn sight closer to it than 3%!
http://wardsauto.com/blog/chevy-cruze-diesel-caught-game-catch
Most dealers I've been too would happily sell more of the cars but when they've trickled in over the last couple years they don't linger long on the lot and haven't been replaced fresh inventory quick enough. It wouldn't surprise me if the biggest factor was how many engines (which are unique to the current North American Cruze Turbo Diesel) were allocated from total production at their plant in Germany.
If the Colorado/Canyon diesel sales take off it should only help with perception and marketing of the 2017 Cruze diesel and it sounds like it has been engineered from the start this time for the North American market.
3% of app 250,000 is app 7,500 units. Xwesx 's response would not seem to have upped the %'s , given the articles.
For my two cents, this is really sad because the Chevrolet Cruz was built on an old Cadillac platform, which is just wonderful for Chevrolet Cruse and its' diesel in particular.
Not that Chevrolet would listen, but if they did 2 TDI's 1.6 L/2.1 to 2.5 L ( different torques for FE vs power and still great FE ) would be compelling on that platform.
Speaking about Caddies.... Like Caddies can compete in European markets that is over 50% TDI and over 80% MT without either.
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/cadillac-confirms-bring-diesels-back-u-130000920.html
But funny things happen when (shoe on other foot principle) the UNIONS have controlling board room seats, large stock ownership, the ability to make American taxpayers bail them out?
So how would you LOVE a (CHINA made) Buick?
http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-made-buicks-to-flood-the-us-2015-8
Like I say, I can't even make this stuff up! ?
So does it BEG the ? .? Buick TDI?
Other lies we are told? Is chicken little an enviro conservative? Or do you really want another ice age like 10.000 to 15,000 years ago? Yes and how many environmental wacko's flock to the Alaskian or Siberian climates?
http://news.yahoo.com/oil-hits-6-5-low-rallying-us-reserves-180437366.html
Re union board members @ruking, are you talking about GM and the UAW or VW?
I don't get all the angst about owning a Chinese car either. Plenty of Volvos are running around, not to mention WWII vets driving Japanese or German cars.
I'm also not sure why some folks say cheaper diesel is a poor motivator? @ $3.01 PUG and 22 miles a gallon vs 35 mpg ( MB GLK 350/250 BlueTec ) that most folks would rather pay 13.7 vs 7 cents per mile or 95% more?
To Carboy21, The $495.00 cheaper MSRP on MB GLK 250 diesel model is a perfect illustration that on fuel alone, it will not break even against the GAS GLK 350 model. Indeed over 100,000 miles, the gas model will cost $7,195 MORE! That savings alone will buy 102,786 miles!
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2015/07/31/137828-low-diesel-fuel-prices-enhance-market-for-clean-diesel-cars.html
Seems like there are two diesel hybrids.
edmunds.com/audi/q7-e-tron/2016/suv/st-200722741/features-specs/
No details available.
The other way to look @ it is a 3.5 L V6 diesel can put out app 465# ft to 525 # ft and get app 28 to 30 mpg.
We are a three car family. So having atleast one TDI or a Hybrid in the Garage is a good hedge against a oil shock
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
as for mpg, seems like the M6 SS gets exact same mpg as M6 2005 GTO did over its first 125k miles. SS is heavier. But handles/feels way lighter.
On E10 93 octane so far:
21 overall, mixed commute, mostly highway
17 in city driving
25 mpg on pure highway driving, at least during breakin <68 mph.
rumor is that the 016 M6 SS may get gas guzzler tax even though 015 did not, which would be quite weird. GTO got 25 mpg back from florida last time, running E0 fuel, real/rural gasoline without any ethanol.
How awesome would it be if there is an insanely overpowered diesel vehicle some day that is subject to the gas-guzzler tax! (Trucks are exempt, of course.)
as for cost per mile, i think your numbers are way off, king, because you are only including fuel cost. i consider fuel as part of the total cost per mile. for cost-per-mile, both of us are surely paying somewhere in the 50 cents or $1 per mile range, with most of the cost being depreciation/insurance/tax/tires/maintenance, and with any marginal difference in fuel cost per mile being just a few percent of the total. also the ideas of using only two sets of tires in 150,000 miles is scary to me - such old/dry/hard/high-mpg tires can have awful traction/braking/handling characteristics. for safety reasons please consider to swap your tires more often, maybe for some much stickier tires, to reduce emergency-braking distances. better traction from your tires can help you to prevent a crash. mpg can't help with that! as for tire rotation, the first one is the most important at 5000 or 7500. after that, it's fine to double the rotation interval to 10k or 15k.
locally it seems like at an increasing rate new jettas are being sold as the gas/TSI model. i don't see as many TDIs as I used to! discounts on Passat TDI stickshift make it very attractive. If there were a wagon version with stickshift I probably couldn't have avoided buying one.
VW TDIs are fun to drive, but not in the same fun league as the SS.
ps - the SS magna ride is VERY NICE. do any diesel cars offer magna-ride? Porsche Cayenne diesel offers it as "PASM"...
as for the coal-rolling guys, i gotta admit i love them and usually line up my GTO behind their tailpipe, or next to their dual-stacks, inviting them to roll the coal. even uninvited, they seem to like to roll coal on high-performance-gassers just as much as on priuses, with the difference being that us high-performance-gasser guys really enjoy it.
i used to greatly enjoy rolling coal on tailgators in 2003 jetta diesel wagon, that thing was awesome and 100% stealth.
On a ME war with Iran, the operative reality does not bear that out. If you have not been following the current prices of oil, it has been WAY low. Indeed this is after many wars, notably with IRAQ. Not to mention the current chaos, i.e. ISIS and terrorists hiding under every rock.
Indeed Iran (among others) is way stronger now, either by our direct/indirect intention/s or defacto intentions. So as you can see , we have labored very hard to make sure Iran is strong, aka scary. Indeed if the administration has its way, they will release a minimum of $ 141B US for increased Iranian firepower, aka not in Irainian denominations.
Oil prices would be lower still IF it were not for this administrations' WAR on coal AND domestic oil frackers!! This is not to mention emphasis on higher cost and totally inefficient and unstable solar and wind electricity. WAR with IRAN is like a cable TV wrestling drama.
So I think it's more than obvious that most folks would rather buy the do dah's for 10,800 to 5,700 rather than 3,000 for a diesel.
You also do not post the calculations that YOU are calling for.
So for example, with my 22 mpg PUG versus 35 mpg over 100,000 miles example, I'm glad that you see the $6,800 in fuel savings ( $ 13,800 versus $7000 ) as small potatoes .
Me? I'd rather use it @ $ 2.45 ULSD to buy 97,143 MORE miles for trips or commuting. @ 15,000 miles per commuting year that is 6.47 years.
Obama is appeasing Iran with this Nuclear Deal, he recently struck with Iran.
USA needs Iran to counterbalance ISIS takeover of Iraq. Choice is between a rock and a hard place.
Does USA want a ISIS controlled Iraq or a Iran controlled Iraq ??
If the later choice is the lesser evil then Iran needs to appeased with the current Nuclear deal.
Israel opposes this deal and would rather attack Iran. THAT would lead the whole middle-east to boil over and oil to reach $200 a barrel.
Factor in the Russians under the Putin leadership. Russian economy depends on high oil prices. It will instigate anything in the middle-east which will push oil prices higher., including support Iran if attacked by Israel.
Just my 2 -cents worth
"A big slate of planned refinery outages this fall could affect diesel fuel, which has been selling for less than gasoline, he said. Diesel could rise 15 cents to 30 cents per gallon as farmers start using large quantities for harvesting equipment, he said."
Diesel prices, now less than gas at the pump, likely to rise into the fall harvest (startribune.com)
There go the bees.
Turn off the Diesel and Smell the Flowers (chromatographytoday.com)
We're melting.
How Jeeps Reclaimed Iceland, And How Diesel Soot Is Taking It Away (Jalopnik)
The same administration is trying to kill farming also. You know FARMING causes global warming etc., etc.. Another truth is they hate US working people. Keep those uppity folks in line.
SO BILLIONS $$$ in CA produce have already been lost due to lack of LABOR availability, and that is with a porous border. ( diesel @ low in CA ) This is fubar because agricultural counties in CA have upwards of 25% aggie unemployment .
So to harvest less crops, requires less diesel. When you add to this the exporting of RUG/PUG due to LOOPHOLES., ( coming off high demand travel season) prices should remain in similar balance. ( RUG/PUG@ similar rise, .15 to .30 rise)
Another way to look at it : why would you want to make a little more money on a smaller percentage (diesel) when you can make the same amount of money on the larger percentage also? Ah.... Because they can! ? It is also too funny if folks protest, they will do the liberal thing and say we will conduct an investigation, so that stuff like this never happens again . Lol, FF ...you can almost set you watch by the planned unplanned and planned outages!
The counterpoint of course, they actually are losing money when when no fuel is produced, no matter the reason, I mean season.