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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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Comments
2014 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel: Adding DEF, Breaking Down the Cost
Please explain how you say multiple 100,000 miles cycles to recover the cost difference and the very next sentence you say $1000 buys 14,776 commute miles with diesel .
Your two contradicting figures leaves my mind reeling in confusion
Accord Hybrid Base ( CVT ) = 24,785
Hyundai Sonata Hybrid Limited (Automatic ) = 23, 450
Monies aside, how do you rank order them? (for whatever reasons, important to you, if it is not already rank ordered)
So I have to decide if I want to drive a Manual to save money or prefer a familiar Automatic Accord and pay more money.
I hope you run me some maths as I want to save money, but will have to retrain to drive a Manual which no one else will touch in my family . Passat TDI auto is 29,000
Advantage diesel?
http://www.boston.com/cars/news-and-reviews/2015/07/21/study-diesel-vehicles-offer-better-savings-the-long-run/AFEw2HdgetoCYDAlrwezbK/story.html
They have a tricked out TDI SEL Limited version for $29k which is just too much fluff for a daily commute.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
A Golf TDI SE auto is $25,102.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
So assuming you halfway like the diesel, unless you can get the hybrid for the same price or under, the likelihood of B/E against the diesel is very low. Essentially that was true for a 2003/4 Toyota Prius vs 2003 Jetta TDI, Civic hybrid, Corolla, etc.
Essentially we (not we, as I told him what to look for) went through a similar to same scenario with my friends' 13 Mercedes-Benz GL 350 BlueTec. He was just fine with it being fully decked out. So what happened was 1. He decided new prices were too"new" and hit the used market 2. that the prices (negotiated) was actually at par with any number of fully decked out gas models (negotiated) prices with WAY more miles & with app 9,000 miles on the TDI clock or 4,500 miles per year. It (the diesel) was almost a total no brainer.
(whether I didn't want one decked out) (That is assuming he wanted or was ok with a diesel.)
Since he wanted a fully decked out diesel, he was more than a happy camper.
So if this is unclear, essentially (on the used market) he got the diesel at gas prices.
When you think about it, I bet California leads the way in passenger diesel car sales too, especially VWs. It's still a bit of uncharted territory in most of the country, efforts by Chevy and the diesel Cruze notwithstanding.
BUT then, if I buy it @ a major truck route crossroads city (in CA, halfway), it's still $2.45. Plus, if I catch a grocery discount, it can be .20 to .50 cents cheaper!! ? So go figure ??
Right, $58,000 for a Corolla sized vehicle, aka hydrogen. They still won't even tell you how big the tank is or has to be to go 300 miles, nor price of fuel..
So @ 2.45 per gal, my 50 mpg TDI is .049 cents pmd:f And we still pay too much fuel tax! @ .01275.= 26% pmd.
Would one care to figure what an FORD F150 pays @ 2.83, posting 16.6 miles per gallon ? (See if you get 349% more pmd, than my 03 Jetta diesel)
Find out what YOU pay
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States
On the other hand, you need to see if the Honda dealership or Honda corporate will replace any of those ( gas hybrid) things to go bad, in or out of warranty, just like VW did with my ( out of warranty) !HPFP (high-pressure fuel pump) issue. If they will or if they do that, that puts it in the no harm no foul category, just like how I feel toward the high-pressure fuel pump issue. While rare to remote, it surely happened, and they stepped up.
A comin monster? # 440 # ft.
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/2016-audi-q7-first-drive-what-it-is-2016-audi-127011739907.html
And it's not good for any car to sit. Battery replacement costs are often overstated by the naysayers on the net and it's easy to just replace a bad cell instead of the whole pack if one of them goes bad. If that really was a big issue, the cabbies would be dumping the hybrids left and right, but they don't.
Spotted gas and diesel at lunch today for $2.45 a gallon, either one. Filled up my 5 gallon propane tank and that was $3.27 a gallon.
With fuel at $2.45, there's not much motivation for the average person to shop a hybrid or a diesel just to save on fuel costs.
The second issue is fuel prices. While diesel can be found at most bigger stations and is currently $0.80 to $1 less per gallon, historically it seems to have averaged around the same price as premium unleaded. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. So there really hasn't been a long-term trend of lower cost diesel which is a primary factor for many people considering a diesel.
I just did a quick search and I'm not sure on the accuracy of their data, but it does appear that while many diesel powered vehicles are sold in California, as a percentage of total vehicles there are many other states leading the way, so to speak.
http://www.dieselforum.org/files/dmfile/DieselTechnologyForum-2014LightDutyTopTenLists.pdf
It's almost like asking is 11 cents more or less than 7 cents? No, no, no, they are the same!
Sidebar: @ 2.45 ULSD, RUG= $2.83, PUG=$ 3.04 so...more like 12.9 k to $ 13.8k vs $7 k.
So $6.8k can buy 2,776 gals of 2.45 ULSD. @ 35 mpg that is 97,143 miles MORE!
Well , OK we could use BIG numbers. Let's say 100,000 miles, same question : is $11,000 more or less than $7,000 ?
Trick question you say! Of course, the same !
Who needs fiction, I can't even make this stuff up.
I have read any number of articles saying that the compact/small car market is very very very quiet. The 60 large GASSER TRUCK ( 15 Ford F150 ) market is hot hot hot !
So if they're not buying gas AVEO's, why woul the oem now want to enter with a diesel AVEO?
Be that as it may, I still bemoan my sub 20 K 2003 & 2009 VW Jetta TDI's.
What would really help diesel adoption would be a diesel Aveo for under $20k.
http://wardsauto.com/vehicles-technology/gm-eyed-us-inception-whisper-diesel
One small tidbit to note which should be a long-term maintenance improvement is what sounds to be a move from using a timing belt to a timing chain in the new engine architecture.
@gagrice we need to get Rocky to pop-in with a review of his.
The Cruze is a major competitor in the sub $20K price class.... it's a footnote in the mid-to-upper $20K class. If buyers have more trim (and price) options, as well as the option of a MT, diesel sales would easily be double, triple, or more (if fully available within the trims and a similar price spread). It only carries a $1,500 premium over the gas LTZ, with non-engine features very similar between the two. I really don't think this is a stretch at all.
So, no, probably not 25%, but a darn sight closer to it than 3%!
http://wardsauto.com/blog/chevy-cruze-diesel-caught-game-catch
Most dealers I've been too would happily sell more of the cars but when they've trickled in over the last couple years they don't linger long on the lot and haven't been replaced fresh inventory quick enough. It wouldn't surprise me if the biggest factor was how many engines (which are unique to the current North American Cruze Turbo Diesel) were allocated from total production at their plant in Germany.
If the Colorado/Canyon diesel sales take off it should only help with perception and marketing of the 2017 Cruze diesel and it sounds like it has been engineered from the start this time for the North American market.
3% of app 250,000 is app 7,500 units. Xwesx 's response would not seem to have upped the %'s , given the articles.
For my two cents, this is really sad because the Chevrolet Cruz was built on an old Cadillac platform, which is just wonderful for Chevrolet Cruse and its' diesel in particular.
Not that Chevrolet would listen, but if they did 2 TDI's 1.6 L/2.1 to 2.5 L ( different torques for FE vs power and still great FE ) would be compelling on that platform.
Speaking about Caddies.... Like Caddies can compete in European markets that is over 50% TDI and over 80% MT without either.
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/cadillac-confirms-bring-diesels-back-u-130000920.html
But funny things happen when (shoe on other foot principle) the UNIONS have controlling board room seats, large stock ownership, the ability to make American taxpayers bail them out?
So how would you LOVE a (CHINA made) Buick?
http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-made-buicks-to-flood-the-us-2015-8
Like I say, I can't even make this stuff up! ?
So does it BEG the ? .? Buick TDI?
Other lies we are told? Is chicken little an enviro conservative? Or do you really want another ice age like 10.000 to 15,000 years ago? Yes and how many environmental wacko's flock to the Alaskian or Siberian climates?
http://news.yahoo.com/oil-hits-6-5-low-rallying-us-reserves-180437366.html
Re union board members @ruking, are you talking about GM and the UAW or VW?
I don't get all the angst about owning a Chinese car either. Plenty of Volvos are running around, not to mention WWII vets driving Japanese or German cars.
I'm also not sure why some folks say cheaper diesel is a poor motivator? @ $3.01 PUG and 22 miles a gallon vs 35 mpg ( MB GLK 350/250 BlueTec ) that most folks would rather pay 13.7 vs 7 cents per mile or 95% more? To each their own ! I guess in some ways it's good that the majority of the oems models don't have diesel counterparts .
To Carboy21, The $495.00 cheaper MSRP on MB GLK 250 diesel model is a perfect illustration that on fuel alone, it will not break even against the GAS GLK 350 model. Indeed over 100,000 miles, the gas model will cost $7,195 MORE! That savings alone will buy 102,786 miles!
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2015/07/31/137828-low-diesel-fuel-prices-enhance-market-for-clean-diesel-cars.html
Seems like there are two diesel hybrids.
edmunds.com/audi/q7-e-tron/2016/suv/st-200722741/features-specs/
No details available.
The other way to look @ it is a 3.5 L V6 diesel can put out app 465# ft to 525 # ft and get app 28 to 30 mpg.
We are a three car family. So having atleast one TDI or a Hybrid in the Garage is a good hedge against a oil shock )
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
as for mpg, seems like the M6 SS gets exact same mpg as M6 2005 GTO did over its first 125k miles. SS is heavier. But handles/feels way lighter.
On E10 93 octane so far:
21 overall, mixed commute, mostly highway
17 in city driving
25 mpg on pure highway driving, at least during breakin <68 mph.
rumor is that the 016 M6 SS may get gas guzzler tax even though 015 did not, which would be quite weird. GTO got 25 mpg back from florida last time, running E0 fuel, real/rural gasoline without any ethanol.
How awesome would it be if there is an insanely overpowered diesel vehicle some day that is subject to the gas-guzzler tax! (Trucks are exempt, of course.)
as for cost per mile, i think your numbers are way off, king, because you are only including fuel cost. i consider fuel as part of the total cost per mile. for cost-per-mile, both of us are surely paying somewhere in the 50 cents or $1 per mile range, with most of the cost being depreciation/insurance/tax/tires/maintenance, and with any marginal difference in fuel cost per mile being just a few percent of the total. also the ideas of using only two sets of tires in 150,000 miles is scary to me - such old/dry/hard/high-mpg tires can have awful traction/braking/handling characteristics. for safety reasons please consider to swap your tires more often, maybe for some much stickier tires, to reduce emergency-braking distances. better traction from your tires can help you to prevent a crash. mpg can't help with that! as for tire rotation, the first one is the most important at 5000 or 7500. after that, it's fine to double the rotation interval to 10k or 15k.
locally it seems like at an increasing rate new jettas are being sold as the gas/TSI model. i don't see as many TDIs as I used to! discounts on Passat TDI stickshift make it very attractive. If there were a wagon version with stickshift I probably couldn't have avoided buying one.
VW TDIs are fun to drive, but not in the same fun league as the SS.
ps - the SS magna ride is VERY NICE. do any diesel cars offer magna-ride? Porsche Cayenne diesel offers it as "PASM"...
as for the coal-rolling guys, i gotta admit i love them and usually line up my GTO behind their tailpipe, or next to their dual-stacks, inviting them to roll the coal. even uninvited, they seem to like to roll coal on high-performance-gassers just as much as on priuses, with the difference being that us high-performance-gasser guys really enjoy it.
i used to greatly enjoy rolling coal on tailgators in 2003 jetta diesel wagon, that thing was awesome and 100% stealth.
On a ME war with Iran, the operative reality does not bear that out. If you have not been following the current prices of oil, it has been WAY low. Indeed this is after many wars, notably with IRAQ. Not to mention the current chaos, i.e. ISIS and terrorists hiding under every rock.
Indeed Iran (among others) is way stronger now, either by our direct/indirect intention/s or defacto intentions. So as you can see , we have labored very hard to make sure Iran is strong, aka scary. Indeed if the administration has its way, they will release a minimum of $ 141B US for increased Iranian firepower, aka not in Irainian denominations.
Oil prices would be lower still IF it were not for this administrations' WAR on coal AND domestic oil frackers!! This is not to mention emphasis on higher cost and totally inefficient and unstable solar and wind electricity. WAR with IRAN is like a cable TV wrestling drama.
So I think it's more than obvious that most folks would rather buy the do dah's for 10,800 to 5,700 rather than 3,000 for a diesel.
You also do not post the calculations that YOU are calling for.
So for example, with my 22 mpg PUG versus 35 mpg over 100,000 miles example, I'm glad that you see the $6,800 in fuel savings ( $ 13,800 versus $7000 ) as small potatoes .
Me? I'd rather use it @ $ 2.45 ULSD to buy 97,143 MORE miles for trips or commuting. @ 15,000 miles per commuting year that is 6.47 years.
Obama is appeasing Iran with this Nuclear Deal, he recently struck with Iran.
USA needs Iran to counterbalance ISIS takeover of Iraq. Choice is between a rock and a hard place.
Does USA want a ISIS controlled Iraq or a Iran controlled Iraq ??
If the later choice is the lesser evil then Iran needs to appeased with the current Nuclear deal.
Israel opposes this deal and would rather attack Iran. THAT would lead the whole middle-east to boil over and oil to reach $200 a barrel.
Factor in the Russians under the Putin leadership. Russian economy depends on high oil prices. It will instigate anything in the middle-east which will push oil prices higher., including support Iran if attacked by Israel.
Just my 2 -cents worth
"A big slate of planned refinery outages this fall could affect diesel fuel, which has been selling for less than gasoline, he said. Diesel could rise 15 cents to 30 cents per gallon as farmers start using large quantities for harvesting equipment, he said."
Diesel prices, now less than gas at the pump, likely to rise into the fall harvest (startribune.com)
There go the bees.
Turn off the Diesel and Smell the Flowers (chromatographytoday.com)
We're melting.
How Jeeps Reclaimed Iceland, And How Diesel Soot Is Taking It Away (Jalopnik)
The same administration is trying to kill farming also. You know FARMING causes global warming etc., etc.. Another truth is they hate US working people. Keep those uppity folks in line.
SO BILLIONS $$$ in CA produce have already been lost due to lack of LABOR availability, and that is with a porous border. ( diesel @ low in CA ) This is fubar because agricultural counties in CA have upwards of 25% aggie unemployment .
So to harvest less crops, requires less diesel. When you add to this the exporting of RUG/PUG due to LOOPHOLES., ( coming off high demand travel season) prices should remain in similar balance. ( RUG/PUG@ similar rise, .15 to .30 rise)
Another way to look at it : why would you want to make a little more money on a smaller percentage (diesel) when you can make the same amount of money on the larger percentage also? Ah.... Because they can! ? It is also too funny if folks protest, they will do the liberal thing and say we will conduct an investigation, so that stuff like this never happens again . Lol, FF ...you can almost set you watch by the planned unplanned and planned outages!
The counterpoint of course, they actually are losing money when when no fuel is produced, no matter the reason, I mean season.