Great advise. Now is really a good time to snap the bargains. Gas prices being very low, the diesels and the hybrids are being steeply discounted. Once the Gas hits 4 bucks then those puppies will be shooting a premium . I am off to the VW and Honda dealer tomorrow to test drive both.
Yes, definitely a good time!
Purely (or mostly) city driving is really the type of environment intended for hybrid/electric vehicles, there's no question about it. If you like what you're getting from the hybrid most of the time, then that "20%" of the time when you are out on the highway basically getting "gasser" mileage, that's not that big of a deal.
It really does surprise me, though, that people still maintain the idea that diesel fuel is more difficult to come by, or that the engines emit a noisy "clatter." Maybe my perception is skewed due to my Subaru ownership, but I would say that neither is true in the modern world.
As was mentioned, get the one that you like best!
The data indicates that actually a diesel in city traffic is actually better than the gas or gas hybrid in city traffic . I think all you need to do is ask any city taxi Prius driver what they really get in city traffic i.e. you know something like pizza del driver also right? OVER STATED comes to mind.
Indeed London, England went to the Nissan taxicab, 1.5 lL DIESEL/hybrid MT at about 53/54 mpg.
Again, it should make one/you wonder why they didn't use a gasser hybrid ? Indeed if EV is better and CHEAPER .... Why not ? ( no wonder to me, nor is it rocket science : 112% to 54% better mpg. Not persuaded by that? No problem, how does $11,840 savings per yr. sound? )
sidebar: NYC will probably be fine with the 25 mpg gas hybrid version.
@ 70,000 miles per year, would you rather get 25 mpg with gasser hybrid or 53/54 mpg with diesel hybrid? ( I posted the link some post earlier)
The sidebar is that London England it's also trying to get rid of cars/ cut down cars in London England and they're trying to get rid of diesel lorries at the same time.
>>>>@ 70,000 miles per year, would you rather get 25 mpg with gasser hybrid or 53/54 mpg with diesel hybrid?<<<< ======================================================= Are we arguing here about hypothetical or what is really available NOW ? Show me which sedan is Diesel/Hybrid and I will buy one tomorrow And no, I am not a taxi driver to be driving 70k a year People rarely take taxis in London because they are frightfully expensive and there is an excellent network of underground metro rail including the Heathrow airport. I lived in London for 2 years and have never taken a taxi.
>>>>@ 70,000 miles per year, would you rather get 25 mpg with gasser hybrid or 53/54 mpg with diesel hybrid? ( I posted the link some post earlier)<<<< ======================================================= Are we arguing here about hypothetical or what is really available NOW ? Show me which sedan is Diesel/Hybrid and I will buy one tomorrow And no, I am not a taxi driver to be driving 70k a year </p>
I posted the article a few posts ago! Feel free to go back and read/see the video.
In your comparison, (like for like competitor hybrid vs diesel ) the hybrid by your own posting's is more than the TDI. So unless you get the Hybrid cheaper, $1000. more will take you app 250,000 miles to B/E.
>>>>@ 70,000 miles per year, would you rather get 25 mpg with gasser hybrid or 53/54 mpg with diesel hybrid? ( I posted the link some post earlier)<<<< ======================================================= Are we arguing here about hypothetical or what is really available NOW ? Show me which sedan is Diesel/Hybrid and I will buy one tomorrow And no, I am not a taxi driver to be driving 70k a year </p>
I posted the article a few posts ago! Feel free to go back and read/see the video.
In your comparison, (like for like competitor hybrid vs diesel ) the hybrid by your own posting's is more than the TDI. So unless you get the Hybrid cheaper, $1000. more will take you app 250,000 miles to B/E.
You sound like a lobbyist for the Diesel car industry As of "today", Honda Accord base Hybrid and the VW Passat TDI SE, are 'almost' similar in discounted price.
Hardly & No ! Actually it sounds like YOU are the hybrid lobbyist ! To distort the fuel mileage by roughly 17 mpg (8 & 9.6 mpg Delta) in favor of the hybrid, when I posted only 2.4 mpg ( fuelly.com) in hybrids favor...I don't know , you tell me.
It is the (London taxi) vehicle itself that gets the avg 70,000 miles. What mileage each cabbie logs is not known to me. So when a taxi is down or in the shop, that's money not in the making and money that it's costing. Assuming three shifts of eight hours, three people can't work and earn a living.
Like I said some posts ago, all the best with your new 15 Honda Accord Hybrid! Edmunds.com made it a point to comment on the hybrid's intrusive engine noise .
..."With its strong electric motor and gasoline engine working together, the 2015 Accord Hybrid accelerates briskly for a nonluxury-brand hybrid. The CVT also works very well and allows the powertrain to quickly respond to your gas pedal inputs. However, the Accord Hybrid's engine makes more noticeable noises than its competitors' do -- especially the Fusion Hybrid. Accelerating briskly or tackling a long highway grade causes the engine to drone quite noisily." ...
Yet for the 15 VW Passat TDI, they say it has a very quiet and refined ride . I would hardly call Edmunds.com, diesel apologeticists.
Hardly & No ! Actually it sounds like YOU are the hybrid lobbyist ! To distort the fuel mileage by roughly 17 mpg (8 & 9.6 mpg Delta) in favor of the hybrid, when I posted only 2.4 mpg ( fuelly.com) in hybrids favor...I don't know , you tell me.
It is the (London taxi) vehicle itself that gets the avg 70,000 miles. What mileage each cabbie logs is not known to me. So when a taxi is down or in the shop, that's money not in the making and money that it's costing. Assuming three shifts of eight hours, three people can't work and earn a living.
Like I said some posts ago, all the best with your new 15 Honda Accord Hybrid! Edmunds.com made it a point to comment on the hybrid's intrusive engine noise .
..."With its strong electric motor and gasoline engine working together, the 2015 Accord Hybrid accelerates briskly for a nonluxury-brand hybrid. The CVT also works very well and allows the powertrain to quickly respond to your gas pedal inputs. However, the Accord Hybrid's engine makes more noticeable noises than its competitors' do -- especially the Fusion Hybrid. Accelerating briskly or tackling a long highway grade causes the engine to drone quite noisily." ...
Yet for the 15 VW Passat TDI, they say it has a very quiet and refined ride . I would hardly call Edmunds.com, diesel apologeticists.
If we are going to quote Edmunds, there is a very good comparison test between the Passat TDI and the Accord hybrid. Some of their findings:
1. The Accord hybrid utterly dominated the Passat in all aspects of fuel savings in this test.
2. The Accord hybrid was 1.7 seconds faster than the Passat 0 to 60 mph.
3. What the Accord loses in utility because of a smaller trunk, it makes back in style, quality, and personality. Put plainly, the Passat isn't as nice inside.
4. The athlete here is the Accord. Its steering is quicker and its response to inputs more welcome than in the Passat.
5. First place, Honda hybrid. Second place, Passat TDI.
Lol, utter domination is 2.4 mpg or 6 % better mpg? Guys like you were totally silent to apologetic to dismissive with TDI's being 33%+ to 114% better ! It still doesn't change the breakeven calculation, unless the hybrid is way cheaper than TDI.
1.7 secs faster? How do you want or need that in crushing commute traffic? it is utterly meaningless to me in real life, in either TDI or hybrid . If you are a stoplight to stoplight racer, why are you even bothering with a TDI let alone hybrid ? A $100k Tesla EV will blow the doors off either/both hybrid/TDI.
# 3 & 4 subjective and hardly hybrid/diesel related and it was not a/b car comparo.
So indeed to beat a dead horse further, join me in wishing Carboy21 best of luck with the new 15 Honda Accord hybrid!
One observation is unless you're carrying 4/5 total people in an Accord hybrid or a Passat TDI size car in mostly city traffic and a lot, the larger size seems a bit overkill.
Not my words. If you don't like the Edmunds comparison, take it up with them.
Like normal, dodging the issues , nothing new . You are taking umbrage with what Edmunds.com said, not me. So yeah, you should take it up with them, and not me.
There is even an edmunds.com thread in titled something like why am I only getting 42 miles a gallon on the Honda Accord hybrid?
Hardly & No ! Actually it sounds like YOU are the hybrid lobbyist ! To distort the fuel mileage by roughly 17 mpg (8 & 9.6 mpg Delta) in favor of the hybrid, when I posted only 2.4 mpg ( fuelly.com) in hybrids favor...I don't know , you tell me. ===========================================================================
I am quoting official EPA figures for city driving (50 vs 30 ) If you cannot read that on the Accord and Passat pages then its not my fault. I did not dream up those figures. I don't care about fuelly figures You are a diesel lobbyist whereas I am trying to decide which to buy. I wanted Passat TDI but if I can get Accord for the same price then I would prefer Accord. You are the one fudging facts and figures as if we are unable to verify your dubious clams You don't seem to care about the Accord being 1.7 secs faster but you make a huge issue out of noisy engine on steep acceleration !! You just proved you are a VW lobbyist
Peace !! Its all a good argument since the topic of this thread is :What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
Hardly & No ! Actually it sounds like YOU are the hybrid lobbyist ! To distort the fuel mileage by roughly 17 mpg (8 & 9.6 mpg Delta) in favor of the hybrid, when I posted only 2.4 mpg ( fuelly.com) in hybrids favor...I don't know , you tell me. ===========================================================================
I am quoting official EPA figures for city driving (50 vs 30 ) If you cannot read that on the Accord and Passat pages then its not my fault. I did not dream up those figures. I don't care about fuelly figures You are a diesel lobbyist whereas I am trying to decide which to buy. I wanted Passat TDI but if I can get Accord for the same price then I would prefer Accord. You are the one fudging facts and figures as if we are unable to verify your dubious clams
Posted EPA figures are historically OFF. Off in a minus way for gassers/ gasser hybrids. It is off in a plus way for TDI's . As if you are the only one that didn't know tha?.
Well, you were discounting/ignoring most of the content and postings that I've made. I clearly said, multiple times and ways, the real world figures used were from fuelly.com. So hardly my dubious claims.
You doubt it? No problem! Then get off you duff and look them up yourself and post what YOU found. So your assertions are false. Like I am trying to railroad you into a Passat TDI, which again is false. So if the real world 42 miles a gallon for the hybrid and 39.6 miles per gallon for the TDI offends you, you might be a subscriber to the concept: The real world sucks? While you say my assertion of BE is dubious, you don't state the price difference or run a BE yourself. What is dubious is what you ain't doing.
I think it's obvious to anybody, that you are leaning toward the hybrid . So why not get that and save yourself the trouble? Then, tell us later if you are posting 50 mpg or better in the city/45 mpg H per EPA !
1st Place It's not what the Accord Hybrid does that wins it this test. Rather, it's what it doesn't do. Finally, we have a sedan that fully embraces hybrid technology without boastfully displaying it in every detail. In fact, the nuances differentiating it from the standard Accord are subtle enough that only those in the know will notice. And that's a good thing.
2014 Honda Accord Hybrid vs. 2013 Volkswagen Passat TDI
More importantly, from behind the wheel, the Accord is a hybrid that doesn't require a full restructuring of your expectations about how a car should drive. Sure, you'll notice its nuances if you're paying attention. But you don't have to. It's a hybrid you can drive like a normal car, should you choose. And if you're so inclined, the Accord provides sufficient indulgence to satisfy even the most fuel-pump-averse hypermiler.
Yes, it costs more than the 2013 Volkswagen Passat, but in every area except cargo space and range, you get more. And if fuel economy is the main priority in your next vehicle it's hard to do better. The bottom line is that the 2014 Honda Accord Hybrid is as impressive as a fuel-saving sedan as it is as a family sedan. And we can't ask for more than that.
For those looking at family 4 door sedans. The Accord and Camry are at the bottom of the list. Hyundai is tops and they have a very popular hybrid model. Passat was number 3.
For those looking at family 4 door sedans. The Accord and Camry are at the bottom of the list. Hyundai is tops and they have a very popular hybrid model. Passat was number 3.
Just the fact that Hyundai uses the galvanized steel, is a huge unseen advantage ! Evidently Korean OEMs are not resting on their laurels. To bypass Toyota and Honda is no small feat !
For those looking at family 4 door sedans. The Accord and Camry are at the bottom of the list. Hyundai is tops and they have a very popular hybrid model. Passat was number 3.
We are only talking about Accord Hybrid vs Passat Diesel.
All of the oems follow some type of constant improvement program. You have to remember that the study that you cited is the 2013 VW Passat TDI vs 2014 Honda Accord hybrid. Why didn't they compare the 2014 my's? So in effect the study is comparing products that are three/ four model years old.
For those looking at family 4 door sedans. The Accord and Camry are at the bottom of the list. Hyundai is tops and they have a very popular hybrid model. Passat was number 3.
We are only talking about Accord Hybrid vs Passat Diesel.
In my search for a diesel SUV I test drove 5 different models. I almost passed by the Touareg TDI as they were in such short supply. I am glad I kept up the search. I think as Car & Driver it is the best of the breed. Have you test driven the Chevy Cruze diesel. A past Edmunds poster has one and loves it.
For those looking at family 4 door sedans. The Accord and Camry are at the bottom of the list. Hyundai is tops and they have a very popular hybrid model. Passat was number 3.
We are only talking about Accord Hybrid vs Passat Diesel.
In my search for a diesel SUV I test drove 5 different models. I almost passed by the Touareg TDI as they were in such short supply. I am glad I kept up the search. I think as Car & Driver it is the best of the breed. Have you test driven the Chevy Cruze diesel. A past Edmunds poster has one and loves it.
Cruze is small for my needs. I prefer Accord/Passat/Fusion mid-size sedans. . SUV is a waste of extra tonnage for my daily commuting needs. I feel claustrophobic in Cruze/Jetta/Golf sized compact cars because of my size
I would love to buy diesel but if Accord Hybrid has competitive pricing then I don't want the headaches associated with maintaining a diesel. Currently the Accord Hybrid has been discounted, so worth it. I would not pay extra 3-4k as premium for a hybrid over a similar sized diesel car.
If they would only bring diesel hybrid Passat, then it would be the best of both worlds.
No doubt, but it took our markets a real long time (14 years or more) to warm up to the gasser hybrid (2 to 2.5%)! Diesels seem to have had a slightly easier time, if the diesel PVF percentages (5 to 6%) are any indication.
The NYC taxi cab folks will not implement the diesel hybrid ,( NV 200 Nissan ) That is one further indication that the U.S. markets are just not ready. I mean really, why get 53. 3 mpg in a diesel hybrid, when you can get 25 mpg with a gasser hybrid?
NYC should have gone with Prii, like probably half the LA cabs. Good mpg, and lower maintenance costs that just about anything else out there.
They either didn't share your views or some of the Toyota Pious hype is not technically possible, sustainable, given the new forward looking taxi specifications. Otherwise, why would you go with 25 mpg in an AT gas hybrid, etc., etc., when a Toyota Prius allegedly does better than that? One would wonder why Toyota did not enter the competition? Or IF it did, did it lose to Nissan?
The idea of a competition was a bit much anyway - let the cabbies (and their customers) decide. Every LA cabbie I've talked to loves theirs, even the little C models.
By the time the NVs get to the City, they'll be Ubered out.
Never taken a cab in NYC anyway and only once in London when we wanted to be sure we could get to a clinic to get a bump x-rayed.
The idea of a competition was a bit much anyway - let the cabbies (and their customers) decide. Every LA cabbie I've talked to loves theirs, even the little C models.
By the time the NVs get to the City, they'll be Ubered out.
Never taken a cab in NYC anyway and only once in London when we wanted to be sure we could get to a clinic to get a bump x-rayed.
No doubt, but it is a little like the one hand clapping, if you can't do an A/B test with the new Nissan NV 200. Now if they still like the Pious after, then that woul be a more FAIR test and informed preference.
For those looking at family 4 door sedans. The Accord and Camry are at the bottom of the list. Hyundai is tops and they have a very popular hybrid model. Passat was number 3.
We are only talking about Accord Hybrid vs Passat Diesel.
All of the oems follow some type of constant improvement program. You have to remember that the study that you cited is the 2013 VW Passat TDI vs 2014 Honda Accord hybrid. Why didn't they compare the 2014 my's? So in effect the study is comparing products that are three/ four model years old.
I wondered about that too. Maybe the new Passat was not out yet. With 80% in town driving, carboy fits right in the sweet spot for a hybrid of some sort. If he drove 80% highway I would be recommending a diesel.
Actually they are sort of the key issues that are a little bit weird. The NV 200 Nissan DIESEL hybrid with 5 speed MT posts 53.3 mpg in one of THE most punishing stop and go conditions /environments in the literal and figurative world. Its gas hybrid offering, probably with CVT, AT, can do no better than 25 mpg.? ??
The differences are HUGE , telling and illustrative to those that will perceive, listen and can see the graphic differences! ?
To cut to the chase, advantage diesel !
Closer to American conditions, I actually have conditions in the daily commute that I could actually use a hybrid also. I know for a fact that the 2003 Toyota Prius hybrid, under the conditions that I mentioned, could never get 60 miles per gallon in the city. Indeed Fuelly.com shows it to get about 43 mpg, which is excellent . However the 2003 Volkswagen Jetta TDI can usually get between 48 and 52 mpg under the same conditions or 16.3% better, key point: sans hybrid ! One can only guess the mpg, IF a diesel hybrid option were available. Looking for "perfection" is a needle in the haystack to fools' errand proposition.
In the case of the London diesel hybrid 2016 taxi versus say the gas hybrid 2016 taxi, we/you know the mpg on a diesel hybrid is 113 % better than a gas hybrid !!! Or 53% LESS fuel.
Given 25 mpg, 70,000 miles per year for 10 years, = 700,000 miles over its operating life. It is clear the NYC taxis will use 28,000 gal of RUG when 13,133 gal of ULSD (@ 53.3 mpg) will do.
(Aka hybrid='s hybrid? Also keep in mind that Nissan is probably paying Toyota operative, licensing and patent fees for the use of hybrid technology - this is of course is opaque)
Again, not to beat a dead horse, advantage diesel !
For those looking at family 4 door sedans. The Accord and Camry are at the bottom of the list. Hyundai is tops and they have a very popular hybrid model. Passat was number 3.
We are only talking about Accord Hybrid vs Passat Diesel.
All of the oems follow some type of constant improvement program. You have to remember that the study that you cited is the 2013 VW Passat TDI vs 2014 Honda Accord hybrid. Why didn't they compare the 2014 my's? So in effect the study is comparing products that are three/ four model years old.
I wondered about that too. Maybe the new Passat was not out yet. With 80% in town driving, carboy fits right in the sweet spot for a hybrid of some sort. If he drove 80% highway I would be recommending a diesel.
Very true. My daily 25 mile one way commute has nearly a dozen traffic lights and a half a dozen stop signs. Diesel would never be optimal for that. Only the hybrid will be the best.
For those looking at family 4 door sedans. The Accord and Camry are at the bottom of the list. Hyundai is tops and they have a very popular hybrid model. Passat was number 3.
We are only talking about Accord Hybrid vs Passat Diesel.
All of the oems follow some type of constant improvement program. You have to remember that the study that you cited is the 2013 VW Passat TDI vs 2014 Honda Accord hybrid. Why didn't they compare the 2014 my's? So in effect the study is comparing products that are three/ four model years old.
I wondered about that too. Maybe the new Passat was not out yet. With 80% in town driving, carboy fits right in the sweet spot for a hybrid of some sort. If he drove 80% highway I would be recommending a diesel.
Very true. My daily 25 mile one way commute has nearly a dozen traffic lights and a half a dozen stop signs. Diesel would never be optimal for that. Only the hybrid will be the best.
Yes, that would be about the perfect vehicle...depending on price of course. Actually, automobile fuel costs pale into insignificance when compared to initial cost plus depreciation.
Yes, in the case of the Accord Hybrid (@42 mpg @ 2.86 rug) costing $1,000 over the VW Passat TDI ( @ 39.6 mpg@ 2.68 ULSD) it would take multiple 100,000 miles cycles ($43 per ) to B/E or recover the cost differences.
(aka $1000. @ 2.68 would buy 373 gal of ULSD. @ 39.6 mpg that buys 14,776 COMUTE miles. For us that would be almost a full years worth.)
Yes, in the case of the Accord Hybrid (@42 mpg @ 2.86 rug) costing $1,000 over the VW Passat TDI ( @ 39.6 mpg@ 2.68 ULSD) it would take multiple 100,000 miles cycles ($43 per ) to B/E or recover the cost differences.
(aka $1000. @ 2.68 would buy 373 gal of ULSD. @ 39.6 mpg that buys 14,776 COMUTE miles. For us that would be almost a full years worth.)
Your maths is good. But 42mpg is understated. People have got 50 and above even if you don't want to believe .For me that would be about 18months worth. After that the Hybrid will start paying back for about 5 years which I would keep the vehicle for
When you are doing your test driving, I would definitely also drive the Sonata Hybrid. It gets about the same mpg as the Honda and you get a 5 year warranty instead of 3 years. It also has a "normal" transmission, not the CVT found in most hybrids. Also should probably cost less.
When you are doing your test driving, I would definitely also drive the Sonata Hybrid. It gets about the same mpg as the Honda and you get a 5 year warranty instead of 3 years. It also has a "normal" transmission, not the CVT found in most hybrids. Also should probably cost less.
Sonata Hybrid has 40/44 mpg rating. Ten less then Accord hybrid for city driving. Don't know what the deal would be on the base model whose MRSP is 26 k. Accord base has been offered for 25k . If Sonata base is offred for 20k, I would buy it
When you are doing your test driving, I would definitely also drive the Sonata Hybrid. It gets about the same mpg as the Honda and you get a 5 year warranty instead of 3 years. It also has a "normal" transmission, not the CVT found in most hybrids. Also should probably cost less.
Sonata Hybrid has 40/44 mpg rating. Ten less then Accord hybrid for city driving. Don't know what the deal would be on the base model whose MRSP is 26 k. Accord base has been offered for 25k . If Sonata base is offred for 20k, I would buy it
Be sure to let us know your impressions when you drive all your "suspects".
Yes, in the case of the Accord Hybrid (@42 mpg @ 2.86 rug) costing $1,000 over the VW Passat TDI ( @ 39.6 mpg@ 2.68 ULSD) it would take multiple 100,000 miles cycles ($43 per ) to B/E or recover the cost differences.
(aka $1000. @ 2.68 would buy 373 gal of ULSD. @ 39.6 mpg that buys 14,776 COMUTE miles. For us that would be almost a full years worth.)
Your maths is good. But 42mpg is understated. People have got 50 and above even if you don't want to believe .For me that would be about 18months worth. After that the Hybrid will start paying back for about 5 years which I would keep the vehicle for
For your sake I hope it is true. But on the other hand, the only real question is whether or not you can consistently get 50 mpg on the Honda Accord hybrid. Again on fuelly, of the 36 15 Accord hybrid drivers, only three report 51 miles per gallon. Since you are going to report this on this thread, when you get the 15 Honda Accord hybrid, I suspect you and we will find out soon enough.
So for example, there's no doubt in my mind that I can get over 39.6 in a Passat TDI. 48 of 94 drivers report 40 to 45 mpg. So say you or I get 42 mpg (which is more often than not what we get on the 2009 VW Jetta TDI) It will still take you 151,100 miles to break even. iF the hybrid costs $1000. more ( and gets 50 mpg )
So IF you get 42 mpg in both the Honda Accord hybrid and the Passat TDI , you will not break even, if the hybrid costs $1000 more. In fact , current diesel (2.68) and rug (2.86) prices would indicate that the diesel would save you acquisition costs with cheaper fuel costs (429.) over 100k miles.. Again those cumulative savings would equate to 21,940 miles of commuting. In my case that would be 1.46 years.
"Despite steady advancements in fuel-saving technologies in the last 25 years, on-road fuel economy for all vehicles has improved by less than a mile per gallon during that time — partly because it takes many years to turn over the fleet," UMTRI said in a statement on Monday.
Yup! GASSER trucks ! So if they are granted the pass, we will aim for 30 years on our TLC's. Massive sales volumes of Toyota trucks are a good Pious smoke screen?
And with totally misdirected RELIGIOUS zeal , environmental left wing dingers vilify late model DIESEL trucks and cars that do way better. Keep in mind those gasser trucks still easily pass yearly smog only inspections.
Driving diesels (351,000 miles) has been utterly seamless. We have always been ahead of the power curve using like model gassers & the avg mpg of 17.6 mpg. We will just wait up another 30 years for the rest of the gasser fleet to catch up with us. Fuelly.com lists the best ever aluminum 15 Ford F150 @ 16.6 mpg? That is for the fuel effcient 3.5 L V6. They're helping! I give it a biblical generation.
Oh I dunno - I used to paddle occasionally with a couple in Anchorage and he was employed by one of the envirogroups up there. When I met them they were driving a manual Caravan and then switched to a diesel VW pickup. Or maybe it was the other way around. This back in the day (80s-90s) when diesels didn't play nice in cold weather.
They were a bad influence on me - they lived out of town and shared one car forever. But I vilified them because they were kayakers....
No, he was with one of the membership groups, maybe FOE? She was a some sort of state bureaucrat and paid the bills.
All the EPA was doing was trying to keep that mine waste from continually polluting the rivers - and there's another five hundred thousand abandoned mines around that keep on giving that gift. Those tailings are nasty.
"What the headlines and photos of bright orange rivers fail to convey is that this mine and thousands of others like it across the country perpetually leak this type of mine pollution into our waters." (CNN)
Naturally the resource extractors never pay up and it's left to us taxpayers to do it.
Back to your "Pious" comments, after the initial Hollywood buzz faded, most of the 5 million + Prius buyers got their cars for one main reason - to save on gas.
Except for extreme ends of the bell curve, if the money doesn't work, people won't go green. So if gas popped a buck or more a gallon, Prius sales would soar.
Right now a lot of dealers are facing that issue - diesel is at parity in most of the country but the premium to buy a diesel over a similar gasser is running about $3,000. That's a lot of green.
The Walmart Murphy I filled up at yesterday had RUG for $2.57 and diesel for $2.55. I didn't look but I assume premium is running ~$2.97.
Well I think the basic hypocrisy is shown by the NYC choice of gas AT in the Nissan diesel 53.3 versus gas 25 (hybrid/hybrid) taxi. It is even complete with numbers!
The basic de facto operative behavior has been/is/continues to be: why burn less (53.3 mpg) , when you can burn MORE (25 mpg) , just as long as you tell people you burn less????
Let's put it another way, if the Pious was not only a shrill for massive volume sales of Toyota trucks, a diesel Pious would get far better MPG than its gas hybrid. True , it would not save on gas. But funny thing, the DIESEL option would be OFF gas entirely, Aka alternate fuel!!??
Be that as it may, there's not a thing wrong with the gas hybrid, and it's' 45.9 miles a gallon, 15 Toyota Prius . Alongside of it, there's nothing wrong with a 15 Toyota Tundra's 14.67 mpg, eh? LikeI say, you/I can't even make this stuff up !?
I've been reading this latest "hybrid vs. diesel" discussion carefully. I'll be in the market for a new (leased) car late next year and I'm weighing all my options.
I currently have a Hyundai Elantra GT, which has averaged 27 MPG over the last 30,000 miles in almost 100% city driving. 27 MPG is the EPA window sticker number, so I have faith in the EPA testing process.
I've test driven a Prius C, which felt a bit too small for me. Have not driven any of the other hybrid or diesel options, but I plan to do so next summer before I make a final decision.
At the moment, here in Colorado, ULSD is running about 30 cents cheaper than RUG, so the extra expense of leasing diesel (Jetta 1.8T vs. Jetta TDI, for example) would be mitigated by the cheaper fuel. I'll monitor the fuel price differential closely over the next year.
if the Pious was not only a shrill for massive volume sales of Toyota trucks, a diesel Pious would get far better MPG than its gas hybrid.
Fleet is fleet. Pretty big selling shill Toyota came up with.
Wait and see - if the numbers don't work for hydrogen, that latest and greatest from Toyota will flop. You can talk about infrastructure and convenience of filling and those are factors, but the bottom line is going to be the bottom line.
And you get back to the argument of why buy a Prius when a gasser (Sonata or whatever) gets close to the same mileage. Gasser Sonata too, not a hybrid.
Close is relative - savings for fleet going from 15 mpg to 16 mpg is huge, 30 to 35mpg not so huge.
That is true! The formula has worked for them for decades!
Toyota sells TDI's on the world wide market. So it is not rocket science for them.
Be that as it may, my going on 22-year-old TLC 1994, looks like it will pass another smog only test without any repair ( in 22 years) to its emissions system. Onward to 30 years.
Again no! The new hydrogen fuel source Toyta may be the new shrill ! Prius ( if it even ever was ) was not profitable for many years!? Have you ever seen a Toyota news release saying we made xxx dollars per Pious? On the other hand, I see news releases indicating Toyota trucks make easily $15,000 per unit and up.
Again, IF it's so good, why aren't they hooking the hydrogen fuel source to say Toyota Tundra's? They certainly didn't hook up the gas hybrid powertrain to the Tundra's? Or did I miss something?
It is inexplicable how Toyota puts a gas hybrid in a Di Caprio's Pious vehicle that gets anywhere from 43 to 48 and how that's going to affect the Joe Six Packs' Tundra truck vehicle mpg that gets 14.67 mpg ???? The goal of course raising mpg to 15 to 16 to 17.6 mpg, as is being claimed! It's flat out false & disconnected!! Aka shrill. Am I the only one that sees that shrill Pious to Tundra disconnect?
It might be a WC Fields type thang (go away boy, you ' re bothering me), but the 12 VW Touareg offers a gasser hybrid option! ! I have read one is lucky to get 22 mpg for a 26.4 gal tank. I've already posted what the TDI gets@ 59% BETTER!
Yes, in the case of the Accord Hybrid (@42 mpg @ 2.86 rug) costing $1,000 over the VW Passat TDI ( @ 39.6 mpg@ 2.68 ULSD) it would take multiple 100,000 miles cycles ($43 per ) to B/E or recover the cost differences.
(aka $1000. @ 2.68 would buy 373 gal of ULSD. @ 39.6 mpg that buys 14,776 COMUTE miles. For us that would be almost a full years worth.)
Wow ! If it takes that long and that many miles to save back $1,000., how long and how many miles would it take to save back the average $3,000. premium that a diesel costs over a like gasser model?
Yes and that's a key point. It's a partial surprised that nobody has really caught this.
But obviously ya don't run dah umbas?
Given the ratios, it's far shorter . Otherwise, I surely wouldn't buy diesels over gasser!
1. 2003 TDI premium $236. Boy was I sweating it. over 187,000 miles at 25.4 and 50 mpg, I have saved roughly about $10,000+ in fuel costs . So you tell me was the $236. premium a rip? 2. 2009 TDI also had $1500. tax credit. That also made it as cheap as the 2003 and close to par with gas.option 3. 2012 TDI $18 k cheaper than gas hybrid. Best deal on gas was minus $1.5k off TDI 4. But let me give you my latest no-brainer. MB GLK 350/250. $ 500 cheaper for 250 blue tech, MSRP . 22 miles per gallon PUG @ $3.47 as opposed to 37 mpg $ 2.75 USLD .
Are the $$'s still a mystery over 100,000 miles? ($15.8k/$7.9k)
But for how and how long I been talking about it, you haven't even still made the connection ? ( you aren't the Lone Ranger by any means) So part of the answer to your/the question is: so what, who cares ?
Now, I would be tempted to say it doesn't matter NOW, because I really like the way the way diesels drive. But I always still run the numbers.
I am totally fine with somebody who likes the gas hybrid and doesn't prefer either gas or diesel .
Comments
Indeed London, England went to the Nissan taxicab, 1.5 lL DIESEL/hybrid MT at about 53/54 mpg.
Again, it should make one/you wonder why they didn't use a gasser hybrid ? Indeed if EV is better and CHEAPER .... Why not ? ( no wonder to me, nor is it rocket science : 112% to 54% better mpg. Not persuaded by that? No problem, how does $11,840 savings per yr. sound? )
sidebar: NYC will probably be fine with the 25 mpg gas hybrid version.
@ 70,000 miles per year, would you rather get 25 mpg with gasser hybrid or 53/54 mpg with diesel hybrid? ( I posted the link some post earlier)
The sidebar is that London England it's also trying to get rid of cars/ cut down cars in London England and they're trying to get rid of diesel lorries at the same time.
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Are we arguing here about hypothetical or what is really available NOW ?
Show me which sedan is Diesel/Hybrid and I will buy one tomorrow
And no, I am not a taxi driver to be driving 70k a year
People rarely take taxis in London because they are frightfully expensive and there is an excellent network of underground metro rail including the Heathrow airport. I lived in London for 2 years and have never taken a taxi.
I posted the article a few posts ago! Feel free to go back and read/see the video.
In your comparison, (like for like competitor hybrid vs diesel ) the hybrid by your own posting's is more than the TDI. So unless you get the Hybrid cheaper, $1000. more will take you app 250,000 miles to B/E.
As of "today", Honda Accord base Hybrid and the VW Passat TDI SE, are 'almost' similar in discounted price.
torquenews.com/1083/why-are-there-no-diesel-hybrid-cars
It is the (London taxi) vehicle itself that gets the avg 70,000 miles. What mileage each cabbie logs is not known to me. So when a taxi is down or in the shop, that's money not in the making and money that it's costing. Assuming three shifts of eight hours, three people can't work and earn a living.
Like I said some posts ago, all the best with your new 15 Honda Accord Hybrid!
..."With its strong electric motor and gasoline engine working together, the 2015 Accord Hybrid accelerates briskly for a nonluxury-brand hybrid. The CVT also works very well and allows the powertrain to quickly respond to your gas pedal inputs. However, the Accord Hybrid's engine makes more noticeable noises than its competitors' do -- especially the Fusion Hybrid. Accelerating briskly or tackling a long highway grade causes the engine to drone quite noisily." ...
Yet for the 15 VW Passat TDI, they say it has a very quiet and refined ride . I would hardly call Edmunds.com, diesel apologeticists.
1. The Accord hybrid utterly dominated the Passat in all aspects of fuel savings in this test.
2. The Accord hybrid was 1.7 seconds faster than the Passat 0 to 60 mph.
3. What the Accord loses in utility because of a smaller trunk, it makes back in style, quality, and personality. Put plainly, the Passat isn't as nice inside.
4. The athlete here is the Accord. Its steering is quicker and its response to inputs more welcome than in the Passat.
5. First place, Honda hybrid. Second place, Passat TDI.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
1.7 secs faster? How do you want or need that in crushing commute traffic? it is utterly meaningless to me in real life, in either TDI or hybrid . If you are a stoplight to stoplight racer, why are you even bothering with a TDI let alone hybrid ? A $100k Tesla EV will blow the doors off either/both hybrid/TDI.
# 3 & 4 subjective and hardly hybrid/diesel related and it was not a/b car comparo.
So indeed to beat a dead horse further, join me in wishing Carboy21 best of luck with the new 15 Honda Accord hybrid!
One observation is unless you're carrying 4/5 total people in an Accord hybrid or a Passat TDI size car in mostly city traffic and a lot, the larger size seems a bit overkill.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
There is even an edmunds.com thread in titled something like why am I only getting 42 miles a gallon on the Honda Accord hybrid?
Hardly & No ! Actually it sounds like YOU are the hybrid lobbyist ! To distort the fuel mileage by roughly 17 mpg (8 & 9.6 mpg Delta) in favor of the hybrid, when I posted only 2.4 mpg ( fuelly.com) in hybrids favor...I don't know , you tell me.
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I am quoting official EPA figures for city driving (50 vs 30 ) If you cannot read that on the Accord and Passat pages then its not my fault. I did not dream up those figures. I don't care about fuelly figures
You don't seem to care about the Accord being 1.7 secs faster but you make a huge issue out of noisy engine on steep acceleration !! You just proved you are a VW lobbyist
Peace !! Its all a good argument since the topic of this thread is :What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
Well, you were discounting/ignoring most of the content and postings that I've made. I clearly said, multiple times and ways, the real world figures used were from fuelly.com. So hardly my dubious claims.
You doubt it? No problem! Then get off you duff and look them up yourself and post what YOU found. So your assertions are false. Like I am trying to railroad you into a Passat TDI, which again is false. So if the real world 42 miles a gallon for the hybrid and 39.6 miles per gallon for the TDI offends you, you might be a subscriber to the concept: The real world sucks? While you say my assertion of BE is dubious, you don't state the price difference or run a BE yourself. What is dubious is what you ain't doing.
I think it's obvious to anybody, that you are leaning toward the hybrid . So why not get that and save yourself the trouble? Then, tell us later if you are posting 50 mpg or better in the city/45 mpg H per EPA !
Edmund's Advice
Meanwhile, we'll drive the winner...
1st Place
It's not what the Accord Hybrid does that wins it this test. Rather, it's what it doesn't do. Finally, we have a sedan that fully embraces hybrid technology without boastfully displaying it in every detail. In fact, the nuances differentiating it from the standard Accord are subtle enough that only those in the know will notice. And that's a good thing.
2014 Honda Accord Hybrid vs. 2013 Volkswagen Passat TDI
More importantly, from behind the wheel, the Accord is a hybrid that doesn't require a full restructuring of your expectations about how a car should drive. Sure, you'll notice its nuances if you're paying attention. But you don't have to. It's a hybrid you can drive like a normal car, should you choose. And if you're so inclined, the Accord provides sufficient indulgence to satisfy even the most fuel-pump-averse hypermiler.
Yes, it costs more than the 2013 Volkswagen Passat, but in every area except cargo space and range, you get more. And if fuel economy is the main priority in your next vehicle it's hard to do better. The bottom line is that the 2014 Honda Accord Hybrid is as impressive as a fuel-saving sedan as it is as a family sedan. And we can't ask for more than that.
cars.axlegeeks.com/compare/4438-5431/2014-Volkswagen-Passat-TDI-SE-4dr-Sedan-2-0L-4cyl-Turbodiesel-6M-vs-2014-Honda-Accord-Hybrid-4dr-Sedan-2-0L-4cyl-gas-electric-hybrid-CVT
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/11/17/27000-midsize-sedan-challenge-car-by-car-capsules/19033181/
In my search for a diesel SUV I test drove 5 different models. I almost passed by the Touareg TDI as they were in such short supply. I am glad I kept up the search. I think as Car & Driver it is the best of the breed. Have you test driven the Chevy Cruze diesel. A past Edmunds poster has one and loves it.
I would love to buy diesel but if Accord Hybrid has competitive pricing then I don't want the headaches associated with maintaining a diesel. Currently the Accord Hybrid has been discounted, so worth it. I would not pay extra 3-4k as premium for a hybrid over a similar sized diesel car.
If they would only bring diesel hybrid Passat, then it would be the best of both worlds.
The NYC taxi cab folks will not implement the diesel hybrid ,( NV 200 Nissan ) That is one further indication that the U.S. markets are just not ready. I mean really, why get 53. 3 mpg in a diesel hybrid, when you can get 25 mpg with a gasser hybrid?
London diesel hybrid
http://www.flyingpenguin.com/?p=18088
NYC taxi
http://www.nissanusa.com/future-and-concept-vehicles/taxi-of-tomorrow
By the time the NVs get to the City, they'll be Ubered out.
Never taken a cab in NYC anyway and only once in London when we wanted to be sure we could get to a clinic to get a bump x-rayed.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The differences are HUGE , telling and illustrative to those that will perceive, listen and can see the graphic differences! ?
To cut to the chase, advantage diesel !
Closer to American conditions, I actually have conditions in the daily commute that I could actually use a hybrid also. I know for a fact that the 2003 Toyota Prius hybrid, under the conditions that I mentioned, could never get 60 miles per gallon in the city. Indeed Fuelly.com shows it to get about 43 mpg, which is excellent . However the 2003 Volkswagen Jetta TDI can usually get between 48 and 52 mpg under the same conditions or 16.3% better, key point: sans hybrid ! One can only guess the mpg, IF a diesel hybrid option were available. Looking for "perfection" is a needle in the haystack to fools' errand proposition.
In the case of the London diesel hybrid 2016 taxi versus say the gas hybrid 2016 taxi, we/you know the mpg on a diesel hybrid is 113 % better than a gas hybrid !!! Or 53% LESS fuel.
Given 25 mpg, 70,000 miles per year for 10 years, = 700,000 miles over its operating life. It is clear the NYC taxis will use 28,000 gal of RUG when 13,133 gal of ULSD (@ 53.3 mpg) will do.
(Aka hybrid='s hybrid? Also keep in mind that Nissan is probably paying Toyota operative, licensing and patent fees for the use of hybrid technology - this is of course is opaque)
Again, not to beat a dead horse, advantage diesel !
Bring on the Diesel Hybrid !!
greencarreports.com/news/1093875_mazda-to-offer-diesel-hybrid-in-japan-only-while-u-s-diesels-still-mia
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
(aka $1000. @ 2.68 would buy 373 gal of ULSD. @ 39.6 mpg that buys 14,776 COMUTE miles. For us that would be almost a full years worth.)
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
So for example, there's no doubt in my mind that I can get over 39.6 in a Passat TDI. 48 of 94 drivers report 40 to 45 mpg. So say you or I get 42 mpg (which is more often than not what we get on the 2009 VW Jetta TDI) It will still take you 151,100 miles to break even. iF the hybrid costs $1000. more ( and gets 50 mpg )
So IF you get 42 mpg in both the Honda Accord hybrid and the Passat TDI , you will not break even, if the hybrid costs $1000 more. In fact , current diesel (2.68) and rug (2.86) prices would indicate that the diesel would save you acquisition costs with cheaper fuel costs (429.) over 100k miles.. Again those cumulative savings would equate to 21,940 miles of commuting. In my case that would be 1.46 years.
But then again, is this the secret hidden in plain sight?
US fuel economy has not improved much since 1923
..."From there, improvements were relatively small. The fleet average for the 250 million vehicles in the U.S. in 2013 was estimated at 17.6 mpg."...
I blew this one BIG time, estimating 24 mpg, IF it is indeed true.
"Despite steady advancements in fuel-saving technologies in the last 25 years, on-road fuel economy for all vehicles has improved by less than a mile per gallon during that time — partly because it takes many years to turn over the fleet," UMTRI said in a statement on Monday.
So it's really the old trucks.
And with totally misdirected RELIGIOUS zeal , environmental left wing dingers vilify late model DIESEL trucks and cars that do way better. Keep in mind those gasser trucks still easily pass yearly smog only inspections.
Driving diesels (351,000 miles) has been utterly seamless. We have always been ahead of the power curve using like model gassers & the avg mpg of 17.6 mpg. We will just wait up another 30 years for the rest of the gasser fleet to catch up with us.
They were a bad influence on me - they lived out of town and shared one car forever. But I vilified them because they were kayakers....
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/10/us/animas-river-toxic-spill-colorado/index.html
All the EPA was doing was trying to keep that mine waste from continually polluting the rivers - and there's another five hundred thousand abandoned mines around that keep on giving that gift. Those tailings are nasty.
"What the headlines and photos of bright orange rivers fail to convey is that this mine and thousands of others like it across the country perpetually leak this type of mine pollution into our waters." (CNN)
Naturally the resource extractors never pay up and it's left to us taxpayers to do it.
Except for extreme ends of the bell curve, if the money doesn't work, people won't go green. So if gas popped a buck or more a gallon, Prius sales would soar.
Right now a lot of dealers are facing that issue - diesel is at parity in most of the country but the premium to buy a diesel over a similar gasser is running about $3,000. That's a lot of green.
The Walmart Murphy I filled up at yesterday had RUG for $2.57 and diesel for $2.55. I didn't look but I assume premium is running ~$2.97.
The basic de facto operative behavior has been/is/continues to be: why burn less
(53.3 mpg) , when you can burn MORE (25 mpg) , just as long as you tell people you burn less????
Let's put it another way, if the Pious was not only a shrill for massive volume sales of Toyota trucks, a diesel Pious would get far better MPG than its gas hybrid. True , it would not save on gas. But funny thing, the DIESEL option would be OFF gas entirely, Aka alternate fuel!!??
Be that as it may, there's not a thing wrong with the gas hybrid, and it's' 45.9 miles a gallon, 15 Toyota Prius . Alongside of it, there's nothing wrong with a 15 Toyota Tundra's 14.67 mpg, eh? LikeI say, you/I can't even make this stuff up !?
I currently have a Hyundai Elantra GT, which has averaged 27 MPG over the last 30,000 miles in almost 100% city driving. 27 MPG is the EPA window sticker number, so I have faith in the EPA testing process.
I've test driven a Prius C, which felt a bit too small for me. Have not driven any of the other hybrid or diesel options, but I plan to do so next summer before I make a final decision.
At the moment, here in Colorado, ULSD is running about 30 cents cheaper than RUG, so the extra expense of leasing diesel (Jetta 1.8T vs. Jetta TDI, for example) would be mitigated by the cheaper fuel. I'll monitor the fuel price differential closely over the next year.
Keep the discussion going!
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
Wait and see - if the numbers don't work for hydrogen, that latest and greatest from Toyota will flop. You can talk about infrastructure and convenience of filling and those are factors, but the bottom line is going to be the bottom line.
And you get back to the argument of why buy a Prius when a gasser (Sonata or whatever) gets close to the same mileage. Gasser Sonata too, not a hybrid.
Close is relative - savings for fleet going from 15 mpg to 16 mpg is huge, 30 to 35mpg not so huge.
Toyota sells TDI's on the world wide market. So it is not rocket science for them.
Be that as it may, my going on 22-year-old TLC 1994, looks like it will pass another smog only test without any repair ( in 22 years) to its emissions system. Onward to 30 years.
Again no! The new hydrogen fuel source Toyta may be the new shrill !
Again, IF it's so good, why aren't they hooking the hydrogen fuel source to say Toyota Tundra's? They certainly didn't hook up the gas hybrid powertrain to the Tundra's? Or did I miss something?
It is inexplicable how Toyota puts a gas hybrid in a Di Caprio's Pious vehicle that gets anywhere from 43 to 48 and how that's going to affect the Joe Six Packs' Tundra truck vehicle mpg that gets 14.67 mpg ???? The goal of course raising mpg to 15 to 16 to 17.6 mpg, as is being claimed! It's flat out false & disconnected!! Aka shrill. Am I the only one that sees that shrill Pious to Tundra disconnect?
It might be a WC Fields type thang (go away boy, you ' re bothering me), but the 12 VW Touareg offers a gasser hybrid option! ! I have read one is lucky to get 22 mpg for a 26.4 gal tank. I've already posted what the TDI gets@ 59% BETTER!
So over gas, gas hybrid, advantage x 2 DIESEL!
Give me one of those in a GTD! 369 # ft would be plenty for the SOS/DD upgrades ! ( 7,300 ft. altitude. YEE HAW!
But then again, it's already great fun in the compact and midsize TDI CUV's!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
But obviously ya don't run dah umbas?
Given the ratios, it's far shorter . Otherwise, I surely wouldn't buy diesels over gasser!
1. 2003 TDI premium $236. Boy was I sweating it.
2. 2009 TDI also had $1500. tax credit. That also made it as cheap as the 2003 and close to par with gas.option
3. 2012 TDI $18 k cheaper than gas hybrid. Best deal on gas was minus $1.5k off TDI
4. But let me give you my latest no-brainer. MB GLK 350/250. $ 500 cheaper for 250 blue tech, MSRP . 22 miles per gallon PUG @ $3.47 as opposed to 37 mpg $ 2.75 USLD .
Are the $$'s still a mystery over 100,000 miles? ($15.8k/$7.9k)
But for how and how long I been talking about it, you haven't even still made the connection ? ( you aren't the Lone Ranger by any means) So part of the answer to your/the question is: so what, who cares ?
Now, I would be tempted to say it doesn't matter NOW, because I really like the way the way diesels drive. But I always still run the numbers.
I am totally fine with somebody who likes the gas hybrid and doesn't prefer either gas or diesel .