What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

jpp75

nyccarguy said:

We are Chronic Car Buyers. When are we NOT in the market? Ha! After looking at those E250 Blue Tecs, I did a search on MBUSA's website for E350 Gassers. Very similar asking prices, The biggest difference? I think there are less than 20 BlueTecs CPO available in a 200 Mile Radius and over 300 E350 Gassers.

True, but I'm trying to enjoy the Volvo (about 2 1/2 years left on the lease) and then make my next big purchase, but we'll see.

If prices are comparable I'd take the BlueTec everyday and twice on Sunday.

stever

nyccarguy said:

The biggest difference? I think there are less than 20 BlueTecs CPO available in a 200 Mile Radius and over 300 E350 Gassers.

Inventory at the VW dealer here, from a very limited exposure to the lot, seems to be heavily weighed more toward the diesel flavor. Would have to check the web inventory to see the real ratio I guess, but TDIs do seem readily available.

ruking1

Just heard this on the CNBC News network. Pundits have Goldman Sachs predicting crude oil could test $ 20 per barrel! Could that mean a sub $ 1.12 per gal RUG /PUG/ULSD ???

If so, it sure beats the earlier Obama goal & utter inevitability of $ 10. per gal, to match or exceed European prices!? The myth of "NON" renewable resource vs "manufactureable widgets " has been shattered/exposed for all to see.

nyccarguy

I know you just got the Volvo. I'm 8 months away from paying off the Pilot, then plan to pay a little extra towards the Legacy. I'm going to lay low for a few years and maybe pick up something nice then. Always looking.

ruking1

It's always a good day/month with NO $$ car payments, diesel or NOT!

nyccarguy

ruking1 said:

It's always a good day/month with NO $$ car payments!

Amen to that!  If I could have resisted temptation in March of 2012 (and not leased a leftover 2011 BMW 328xi), the 2010 Acura TSX I traded in for it would have been paid off last August.  But I'll take 2 of 3 cars paid off by next May.

xwesx

ruking1 said:

It's always a good day/month with NO $$ car payments, diesel or NOT!

That it is!

ruking1

Since I've had more than one car that have or have had over 180,000 miles, that " milestone" has long since lost its' mystery & or anxiety. So, DIESEL mpgs of 50/40/37/33 versus gasser 27/26/21/19 mpgs, for 180,000 miles & beyond are very compelling. ( like model)

jpp75

nyccarguy said:

I know you just got the Volvo. I'm 8 months away from paying off the Pilot, then plan to pay a little extra towards the Legacy. I'm going to lay low for a few years and maybe pick up something nice then. Always looking.

Always, and if I got rid of the Volvo it wouldn't be my first (or fifth) early exit from a lease. But I do enjoy the Volvo, great drive, runs on regular and gets great MPG. (28 avg over the last 6,000 miles). If they brought their diesel over I'd definitely get one.

ruking1

Is that code for, "when hell freezes over ?" Aka, when Volvo goes China owned. Has Volvo ever had an American market diesel ?

Michaell

ruking1 said:

Is that code for, "when hell freezes over ?" Aka, when Volvo goes China owned. Has Volvo ever had an American market diesel ?

Yep, back in the 80's the 244 was available with a 2.1L diesel. They also offered the 7xx sedan and wagon with a diesel for a few years as well.

nyccarguy

Enjoy the Volvo. You got a nice deal on it. You are happy with it. It is definitely a nice ride. There's ALWAYS going to be something out there that is faster, quicker, gets better MPG, rides smoother, corners sharper, with more features...

ruking1

Yes, I don't see any real reason why that Volvo can't go 180,000 miles + or 12 years.+

houdini1

It's a little odd but back in 1980 when I bought a '79 240D, I really bought it because of the build quality and the way it drove and not specifically because it was diesel. Back in those days Mercedes was one of the few cars that didn't turn into a rattletrap after a couple of thousand miles.

Michaell

houdini1 said:

It's a little odd but back in 1980 when I bought a '79 240D, I really bought it because of the build quality and the way it drove and not specifically because it was diesel.

IIRC, at that time, most MB's that were on the market were diesel.

houdini1

True. There was a gasser, 230 I believe, a model I really liked, but they were very rare. I kept my eyes open for one but that deal never happened. A friend of mine had one, pale yellow, that was gorgeous.

nyccarguy

ruking1 said:

Yes, I don't see any real reason why that Volvo can't go 180,000 miles + or 12 years.+

I can. He leased his Volvo. He's also a card carrying Chronic Car Buyer (like me).

ruking1

We all gots to have our hobbies.

ruking1

Some things tell me that the current generation Porsche Cayenne/VW Tourareg TDI 's will stay in the diesel/s sweet spot for @ least the next 10 years. After that (24 to 27 years old), I think it has a 50-50 chance of becoming iconic diesels.

Here's an interesting article.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/porsche-cayenne-history.htm

elias

king, no worry! I'm not trying to obfuscate anything nor am I trying to be rigorous about measuring my new non-diesel/way-more-fun-than-any-diesel car's mpg. with new Holdens and other GMs in USA , the car *emails* me its overall mpg every month, until the onstar subscription lapses in 2 months.

In the diesel department, I'm still shopping for a DPF-less 2007-or-older Benz anything-CDI. Always on the lookout for one of those. E class is the most likely to find, but I'd even take an R class CDI if I found a nice one of those locally.

there's no need to verify 2015 SS ECO mpg since it's not a diesel and has nothing to do with diesels. but if you are interested, i could start a "fuelly" account for it, and use multiple/rigorous measurements to measure the mpg.

in the meantime, fwiw: a whopping 22.9 mpg on the return trip from DC->Boston. the dashboard computer on both of my Holdens in USA is very accurate with the mpg. my experience indicates that accurate dashboard mpg seems way-more-accurate for low-mpg cars than for high-mpg cars .

elias

no, king, we are not afraid of the truth. Maybe some day i will want to drive a mostly-depreciated VW TDI, but not any time soon. My experience/knowledge especially via my five VW (4 TDIs) is that importnat/expensive parts/systems tend to fail. Stuff like oil-pump chain-drive systems. Or camshafts. Or entire fuel systems get cratered by disintegrating TDI fuel pumps. Or the floors rust out and the battery under the back seat falls/drags onto the road while driving (1965 VW beetle.)

So for now I'll stick with mostly-depreciated Holden gassers rather than a mostly-depreciated VW TDI. All the while, I'll be on the lookout for an used Benz non-DPF CDI so I can rejoin the diesel club .

Btw, ru-king-man, are you obfuscating via that "17 cents per mile" number by failing to include all the other costs of vehicle ownership.? Do you mean to indicate Total Cost of Ownership or do you omit, tires, insurance, insanely expensive random VW parts/failures, and thousands to replace the inevitable failures in the mandatory rube goldberg mpg-sapping DPF/regen systems on 2009 & later Vee-Dubs.

elias

gagrice said:

stever said:

hm, looks like I ran out of gas doing my spreadsheet on the last van. At 175k my gas was running .22 a mile, and I didn't update the last 25,000 miles. Give or take - I tracked gallons and miles, but not cost per gallon on each tank. Everything together was more like .41 a mile.

My cost to date on the 2013 Touareg TDI is $1.07 per mile. That includes the payment of $921 per month. Got to love that no interest $0 down payment. Two years down, three to go. Then my cost per mile should be in the under 20 cent per mile range. Unless diesel goes way back up. Or I get antsy for a new diesel SUV.

good luck getting the cost per mile to 20 cents with a 2-reg TDI. that number seems wildly and bizarrely optimistic.
maybe you can do it unless the vehicle requires mega-dough to repair due via a VW part and/or design issue that may manifest around 100k. based on my experience with 4 VW TDIs over about 400k miles, and a decade on tdi-club, that's a huge worry for a VW, especially a TDI.

elias

ruking1 said:

Going unused? $$$'s

http://news.yahoo.com/many-u-drivers-ignoring-tech-features-cars-survey-171315052--finance.html

Good one, King #1 of Ru. i haven't tried many of the electronic gadgets in my car and would have preferred to omit them to save $ on purchase price.
Some day I'll try the automatic parking - the car can parallel park itself as well as perpendicular-park itself (backing-in, i think.)

elias

ruking1 said:

Yes, I think for those that are addicted to the zero to 60 metric & mantra, sub to 4 sec times in EV's like Tesla is a way to go (without the H/S & gun smoke) . Around here, I get passed routinely by Tesla's " getting on it". Be that as it may, it's remains meaningless to me, albeit, it is entertaining to watch.

I have yet to see a Tesla on the way UP to Tahoe, CA, let alone passing me, at altitude. I guess they have to charge up for a day or so in Vacaville, CA , before they try it. It reminds me of that Gilligans Island TV show. It's supposed to be a three hour tour.

Teslas are probably great commute-cars if your commute is <100 miles and do not use the car for random long drives. For those of us who like to drive wherever we want, 500 or 1000 miles per day, we will stick with internal-combustion, thank you.

Please never mention/compare-with Teslas on this forum again!
Please compare with Priuses or Volts yes, but never compare against Teslas due to their awful versatility flaw.

jpp75

nyccarguy said:

Enjoy the Volvo. You got a nice deal on it. You are happy with it. It is definitely a nice ride. There's ALWAYS going to be something out there that is faster, quicker, gets better MPG, rides smoother, corners sharper, with more features...

Thanks and you're right, and I do enjoy driving it. There will always be TDI Touaregs for sale, and hopefully one day a Tesla 3.

jpp75

ruking1 said:

Yes, I don't see any real reason why that Volvo can't go 180,000 miles + or 12 years.+

Well I don't have that much faith in it, maybe 120,000 but I never keep cars that long. The engine seems solid although this is the first year of the new engine so time will tell how reliable it is. I'm more concerned about electrical gremlins than the engine.

ruking1

jpp5862 said:

ruking1 said:

Yes, I don't see any real reason why that Volvo can't go 180,000 miles + or 12 years.+

Well I don't have that much faith in it, maybe 120,000 but I never keep cars that long. The engine seems solid although this is the first year of the new engine so time will tell how reliable it is. I'm more concerned about electrical gremlins than the engine.

I am sure that fear & other has/have some to many basis/ es in your anecdotal experience/s.

That is why in my anecdotal experiences, ( more miles & years in gassers) I can hardly fathom why I would want to switch back to gasser automobiles, UNLESS they offered the MANY advantages of TDI's. This is hardly a testimony claiming absolutely NO warts on diesels!

While I would like more OEMs to bring more TDI models, the ever increasing model choices would not necessarily be reason enough to switch either models/brands. So for example, while Lexus has a well earned reputation for reliability and durability, it remains to be seen how well Lexus TDI's models/brand will fare.

Slow news diesel day! A family member is reporting $2.04 RUG, MG $2.27,PUG $2.44

ULSD $2.24, GA.

Closer to home, halfway to SOS/DD, $2.44 for ULSD, $2.59 RUG.

ruking1

Interesting Toyota TDI worldwide markets take? Probably not for US markets.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/06/20150619-toyotagd.html

gagrice

ruking1 said:

Interesting Toyota TDI worldwide markets take? Probably not for US markets.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/06/20150619-toyotagd.html

For me to ever give Toyota another go it would have to offer a diesel. Only likely one would be the small Hi-lux PU with diesel. I think diesel is about all they offer in the rest of the World. A missionary friend had them in Sierra Leone and Nicaragua. Said they would take a beating and get great mileage.

ruking1

Yes, the current German CUV's can easily handle whatever little off roading that I do. All in all, they are designed mostly for higher speed cruising on good normal to mountain roads to interstate highways & winter duties.

ruking1

http://www.businessadvicesource.com/10-buy-a-car-instead-of-lease/?utm_source=Gemini&utm_medium=US&utm_campaign=Gemini&utm_content=BuyCar_CarUnderBridgeC2

Be that as it may, a significant minority does lease .

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/buying-selling/how-to-lease-a-car1.htm

stever

Sorry, I'm not going to click through ten pages to see why I shouldn't lease. And no print shortcut?

xwesx

elias said:

Please never mention/compare-with Teslas on this forum again!
Please compare with Priuses or Volts yes, but never compare against Teslas due to their awful versatility flaw.

Mentioning, not comparing: To Tesla's credit, they really are doing a great job of developing a recharge infrastructure that reduces (or at least minimizes the impact of) this versatility flaw. Keep in mind that without the massive infrastructure in place for ICEs, these cars would have the same limitations of all-electric vehicles in the modern world. And, real or not (mostly not), people retain this exact same perception of diesels - they won't be able to find a place to refuel. /sigh

Side note: I saw my first real-life Tesla S last week (and at a very benign place). They are absolutely stunning cars in terms of beauty... rolling sculptures.

ruking1

Too funny ! Of course, it doesn't hurt if one lives in one of these zip codes , around an epicenter like Palo Alto

http://www.businessinsider.com/zip-codes-where-tesla-is-most-popular-car-2013-10

gagrice

If my understanding is correct the charging stations Tesla is putting in will only recharge the Tesla S. And he is getting a big tax credit for putting them in. Tesla is a HUGE corporate welfare scam, on several levels. How else can you sell every car at a $4000 loss and not go broke or dip into your own money?

stever

Volume.

Kind of like Chilcoot Charlie's where they cheat the other guy (Mr. & Mrs. Taxpayer?) and pass the savings on to you.

With all the oil and gas subsidies out there, I can't begrudge 'em. The drillers are like the gold diggers - let 'em claim and extract the resource for piddling, if any, royalties, and then let the taxpayer pick up the tab when something spills.

gagrice

stever said:

Volume.

Kind of like Chilcoot Charlie's where they cheat the other guy (Mr. & Mrs. Taxpayer?) and pass the savings on to you.

With all the oil and gas subsidies out there, I can't begrudge 'em. The drillers are like the gold diggers - let 'em claim and extract the resource for piddling, if any, royalties, and then let the taxpayer pick up the tab when something spills.

I think you know the subsidies given to Tesla go far beyond what the oil companies get. I know for me when I was a resident of Alaska, I got a lot from the oil revenues. No income tax or sales tax and a nice check every year. Any tax benefits the oil companies get benefit everyone in the country, not just the 1%ers. I am appreciating my $2.50 diesel.

Tesla is ONLY corporate and personal welfare for the RICH. Only the 1% can afford a Tesla. Latest projection is 2020 for the Tesla for the masses. And then only if the battery factory we are building is up and running. Lots of IFs with Elon Musk.

stever

I don't buy it. Well, I do "have" to buy it, but I don't.

Wiki throws out Dirkson numbers.

ruking1

stever said:

I don't buy it. Well, I do "have" to buy it, but I don't.

Wiki throws out Dirkson numbers.

Based on optimistic estimates (Edmunds.com) the Tesla's cpmd:fuel with FULL subsidies ( CA carries a .37 cent plus+ per KWH " subsidy " price tag in the areas with the most Tesla's ) .145 cents. Against my 33 mpg VW TDI @ 2.44 per gal =.074 cents.

I am not all together sure of the utility of sub 3.5 sec, zero to 60 mph times for the Tesla in the Palo Alto , CA area commute traffic ? ? ( purely from a traffic perspective Palo Alto can be horrendous) In comparison, the diesel is SLOW! (6.9 sec)

I do have to admit, shooting up and down Sand Hill Road, stop light to stop light is the figurative "gas"! Got to watch for CHP 's on the Highwat 280 Sand Hill on ramps ! Got to love those Brembo's!

AGAIN, ADVANTAGE diesel!

xwesx

While the S would be a hoot, I'm sure, on many a road, I would definitely not mind trying my hand at a Tesla X.

And... then I look at the price tag. LOL

From a practicality perspective, though, I'm not sure how realistic it is to seriously consider a new diesel here, either. The problem being with the urea injection, what sort of issues are going to arise if someone in my scenario (extreme climate, no garage) were to attempt long-term ownership?

For sure, the urea will spend most of its time, for half of the year at least, in a state of frozen uselessness.....

stever

Speaking of how well diesels tend to hold value, if anyone fits this request, please respond.

A reporter is looking to talk with a family in either the San Francisco or Los Angeles areas that is currently looking to sell one or more of their cars for maximum value. If you fit the description, please send a message to PR@edmunds.com by no later than Friday, September 18, 2015.

ruking1

11 degrees F is the freezing point for 32.5% urea formula. However, even if it freezes, it does NOT prevent starting & or subsequent operation.

http://www.wccressey.com/Cummins Filtration DEF FAQ.pdfhttp://www.wccressey.com/Cummins Filtration DEF FAQ.pdf

Outside of normal (battery trickle charger, oil pan, coolant heaters) electrical winterization for gassers, would be adding a stick on urea tank heater ( they ALREADYhave an internal tank heater) , for the ultimate in belt & suspenders operation.

stevedebi

ruking1 said:

11degrees F freezing point. However even if it freezes, it does NOT prevent starting.

http://www.wccressey.com/Cummins Filtration DEF FAQ.pdf

Outside of normal (battery trickle charger,oil pan, coolant heater) electrical winterization for gassers, would be adding a urea tank heater.

Our 2014 VW Passat has a heated urea tank.

ruking1

Despite VW's stumbling and a bumbling, they continue to deliver fantastic TDI opportunities!

http://jalopnik.com/the-volkswagen-golf-isn-t-selling-as-well-as-volkswagen-1730781540

Albeit, admittedly the Golf Sport Wagon or Golfs' for that matter is/are not everybody's cup of tea.

TMI: GSW's are on track to have roughly an 85% TDI take rate!

xwesx

ruking1 said:

11 degrees F is the freezing point for 32.5% urea formula. However, even if it freezes, it does NOT prevent starting & or subsequent operation.

http://www.wccressey.com/Cummins Filtration DEF FAQ.pdfhttp://www.wccressey.com/Cummins Filtration DEF FAQ.pdf

Outside of normal (battery trickle charger, oil pan, coolant heaters) electrical winterization for gassers, would be adding a stick on urea tank heater ( they ALREADYhave an internal tank heater) , for the ultimate in belt & suspenders operation.

That was my understanding as well (will not prevent starting/operation), but I'm wondering about the long term effects on the car's systems if the urea injection is not happening over long periods of time (e.g., months). Eleven degrees means, yeah, I could pretty much guarantee that a solid four months would not see temps reasonably above that level.

And, yes, you can heat the tank, but where do the lines run, and how does one defrost those? If they are on the interior of the car (perhaps between interior finish and the insulation) and engine bay only, then there's a good chance that the fluid will start to flow with a long enough drive. But, if the lines run similar to the fuel lines, the tank can be as warm as summer and the fluid is still not going to get to the tank.

If the only impact is emissions, then I'm good with that. If it shortens the life of other systems, though, that's not so good.

ruking1

I can probably address the issue in 9 to 11 years, when my 12/14 TDI's are each 12 years old and have clocked 180,000 miles plus+ . However, at about 55,000 & 17,000 miles, there are literally no issues.

Higher fuel prices?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-americans-pay-more-gasoline-204212686.html

stever

"The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has closed an investigation into 241,279 Volkswagen and Audi TDI clean diesel vehicles after looking into consumer complaints of high-pressure fuel pump failure.

"Volkswagen believes that misfueling with gasoline is the primary cause of HPFP drivetrain failures in the field," NHTSA said in its summary of the probe."

Not everyone agrees that it's putting gas in the tank that's the issue.

Feds Close Probe Into VW, Audi TDI Vehicles for High-Pressure Fuel Pump Failure

ruking1

Well in truth, that has never been the central issue of the app 800 cases. Mis-fueling may have started up being one of VW's SUSPECTED boo boos. But it's remained an even smaller number of unstated cases, volume & percentage wise.

I am surprised that the article did not include the actual number of documented HPFP cases. As I remember, the # being approximately 800/ 241,279 cases, or = .00332 %

Again anecdotally, that was not true in my HPFP case. They did not even draw fuel samples, as part of in/out of warranty fulfillment.

Why was this important or an issue ? If there was mis-fueling, either by the customer or the choice of fueling station, obviously VW would be then NOT be liable for the damages due to mis-fueling. Aka, self inflicted GSW, case closed.

TMI

Further, Robert Bosch (HPFP vendor) has had failures in other OEM's gasser/ diesel fuel pumps. Again non correlated mis-fueling issues.

Unofficially, the suspected culprit has always been the differences and standards between European/American ULSD, aka, with the relative lack of Am lubricity. However, up to very high levels of lubricity in biodiesel, for example has NO correlation in preventing HPFP failure. Further VW (& other diesel car OEM's) do not recommend beyond 5% biodiesel. So either they do not know, or they are not telling us.

ruking1

Slow news diesel day out here!

This is so two hours ago!

ULSD $2.44, RUG $2.51, MGG $ 2.61, PUG $2.71.

Last night we filled the MB GLK 250 BT posting 36.2 commute mpg. That posting is even more surprising having to hit SFO Intl airport several times @ both airport "rush" hours, & normal rush hours. Dial in a few Palo Alto,CA runs (Tesla land), & it's almost confusing.

TMI: I am tempted to stop one day @ the corner store Palo Alto, McLaren dealership

I don't know why we bother sometimes, refueling much under 15 gallons (565 miles). (15.6 gal tank) I guess it was that pesky car wash and filling the tires after the low psi warning light went off. Almost any of my diesel car tires sets seems to lose about a # a month around here, (not including temperature variations) so I can only ignored them for 3 to 6 months at a time.

With the mid sized CUV VW Touareg TDI getting between 32 and 35 miles mpg (924 miles range) and having way much more room for suitcases, etc., getting into/out of airports than the compact CUV, I just have to say the midsize VW Touareg TDI is probably the better over all vehicle.

Teaser or coming to AM markets?

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/frankfurt-auto-show/news/a26723/new-jeep-wrangler-sunriser-concept-is-diesel-powered-and-very-orange/

xwesx

ruking1 said:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/frankfurt-auto-show/news/a26723/new-jeep-wrangler-sunriser-concept-is-diesel-powered-and-very-orange/

Whoa! The perfect Wrangler!